Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 January 25

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January 25

What is the etymology of the 'Pakicetid' ?

Hi all. I wasn't sure whether to put this in the language question section (etymology) or the science section (biology), so I put it in both. I am learning about the evolution of the whale, and I was wondering what Pakicetid means, in the latin or greek or whatever that it came from, as the article does not say. Much help appreciated ! Xhin 00:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the article on Pakicetus claims the paki- part is because the fossils were discovered in Pakistan; cetus (as in "ceteceans") is Latin for "whale" --Miskwito 00:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

English pronunciation

How to pronounce the name Dr. Livesey? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.63.101.102 (talk) 03:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Like this: Dr. Livesey 137.22.30.19 03:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Extraordinarily unhelpful. It's like "liv-see". JackofOz 03:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say it's more like "liv-zee" (stress on the first syllable). Sorry but I don't know any IPA. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The IPA for what you describe would be something like ['lɪv.zi]. Which is what I'd probably guess the pronunciation would be too. --Miskwito 22:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I hope that everyone realizes that, although there may be a traditional or "official" way of pronouncing a name, in practice the pronunciation of names varies widely. This is especially true of immigrants, who may anglicize (or the local equivalent) their name. The best way to find out how to pronounce a person's name is to ask them. :) -- 18:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Alain

I'm reading Count Zero and one of the male characters is named Alain. I've only ever seen this name in print and I'd like to know if I'm pronouncing it in my head correctly. So how is it pronounced? No IPA please. Dismas|^(talk) 06:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, since it's a French name that includes a sound not found in English, there's no way to transcribe it except with the IPA. Guess you're out of luck. —Angr 06:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try an approximation: Al- gets pronounced something like Ull- (as in the word hull), and for the-ain part, imagine the vowel a in man, but cut it off before you get to the n (the n in Alain is basically silent, except for in certain dialects). Hope it helped a bit. ---Sluzzelin 07:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sluzzelin, thanks for the help! Dismas|^(talk) 08:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

You're very welcome, for what it was worth. Just for the fun of it, I believe uh-la(n) might be a better approximation (uh- as in uh,and -la(n) following the cut-off-before-the-'n' advice above). ---Sluzzelin 08:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it ends with a nasal vowel, i.e. a sound between nothing and "ng" if you're picky. 惑乱 分からん 08:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

English has no nasal vowels, so explaining how it sounds in French is like explaining what sex feels like: Words won't do, you've got to experience it. However, experiencing French pronunciation is cheaper, easier and less likely give you a social disease. Try playing this audio file from about.com. (The rest of the about.com audio dictionary of French is here.) --Diderot 14:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think that some dialects of English do have nasal vowels as allophones. For example, I'm fairly sure that, in my variety of American English, the word "can't" is actually pronounced kɪæʔ or kɪɛʔ, in which the diphthong before the glottal stop is actually a nasalized vowel. (Unfortunately I can't get my keyboard to produce the vowel with a superscript and can't find an example to cut and paste.) The nasalized vowel that is the second element of the diphthong in this version of "can't" is very much like the final vowel in the French "Allain". If an English speaker speaks a dialect where this articulation occurs, they can just notice carefully how they pronounce "can't" and leave off the glottal stop (which they may think of as a final "t") and the initial vowel or glide in the diphthong (if their dialect has a diphthong in that position), and they will have a nasalized vowel. My point is that many English speakers do pronounce nasalized vowels (also in "don't" or "paint") without being aware of it. Marco polo 18:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, all dialects of English have nasal vowels before (and sometimes after) nasal consonants. Nohat 19:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright, if I have to be pedantic about it: Nasalization is not generally phonologically significant in English. --Diderot 22:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course you could just think of him as Alan (name) :) --Cody.Pope 01:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. If he isn't supposed to be French-speaking, chances are it's just pronounced 'Alan'. Skittle 12:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

"Sex discrimination"

I was watching an otherwise forgettable movie that was released in 1945. What startled me was that the term "sex discrimination" was used in the movie. For some reason, I thought that that particular phrase would have been much more recent. So, a two part question:

1) What is the first recorded instance of the phrase "sex discrimination"?

2) How does one find out things like this.?

Of course, with my luck, y'all will report that the phrase goes back to Chaucer. Bunthorne 07:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The OED routinely records the first known use of each word (and some phrases) when it appears in writing. Of course, most words were probably used in speech long before appearing in print. In the case of "sex discrimination" it gives a date of 1916: 1916 Campaign Text-Book. (National Woman’s Party) p.62 "Enfranchised women in the United States regard the removal of sex discrimination from our national constitution as a political need of primary importance." (Greetings to a fellow Bunthorne fan?)--Shantavira 09:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

And of course "known" here means "known to them". It often happens that later research turns up an earlier example of a word, which they call "antedating" it. --Anonymous, January 25, 17:28 (UTC).

Thanks for your help. I didn't realize that the ODE also had phrases. (actually a Gilbert and Sullivan fan. 68.183.136.198 07:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC) (forgot to sign in) Bunthorne 08:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

How to start an article in a languague, that is not provided ?

How can I start an article in a languague, that is not provided ? I mean the Rusyn (Ruthenian) languague. I was not able to find it. Thank you for your information, Viktor. Laborec 14:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The article you would like to start may already be on Wikipedia. Please look at the links on the Ruthenian language (disambiguation) page. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

If you were asking about providing articles written in the Ruthenian language, see m:Help:How to start a new Wikipedia. -- Ferkelparade π 15:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

How do you even start a new article? I have been looking around for days, and pressing all sorts of buttons, and got no answers. CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 11:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

First, make sure that the article you want to start isn't already on here. If it isn't, the easiest way to start an article is to type its title into the search box and click Go. Then click the red "create this page" link and you're away. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 19:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

longest word

What is the longest word in English and what does it mean? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Person007 (talk • contribs) 15:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Longest word in English--Jeff 15:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The longest word in English is:

pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.

Forty-five letters. You could probably guess its meaning simply by analyzing its morphology: it is a lung condition, in this case caused by the inhalation of microscopic particles of silicon or silicates, similer to the "black lung" that coal miners may contract from inhaling coal (carbon) dust. --Vyasa Ozsvar 00:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, while Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is the longest word ever to appear in a major dictionary, it was originally a hoax. So I'm not sure whether you can legitimately count it as being "the longest word in English". Reading Longest word in English explains the various possibilities. --Miskwito 05:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

There is also the chemical s:Chemical name of titin − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hungarian phrase translation

My whole Hungarian family is long deceased and I remember a phrase I used to hear a lot that sounded like "eggishegina"...but when I said it in the nursing home, my 96 year old Aunt Helen, who is now deceased made me promise never to say it again. What does it mean? 75.202.38.127 15:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC) Gerry Clare 22 Secret Cove Court Amelia Island, FL 32034

It probably was egészségedre, literally meaning to your health, in the sense of Cheers! when raising your glass, and in the sense of Bless you! or Gezundheit after someone sneezed. ---Sluzzelin 16:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

But why would that be offensive to Aunt Helen? (Or maybe it was only his pronunciation she objected to?) —Angr 18:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking about that too (lol at pronunciation explanation). Maybe it made her sad and nostalgic, as she was her family's only remaining living native speaker. Or maybe it was an instinct typical for some immigrants in the United States, to raise their children as American as possible and abandon the family's hoary relics from the distant (and possibly difficult) past in Europe. ---Sluzzelin 18:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

How is the szs' cluster to be interpreted? Is it sz+s [sʃ] or s+zs [ʃʒ]? —Angr 20:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The former, sz + s. or "a guess shay gaddr a" (I'm sure you loved that phonetic spelling :P, btw, are there any recommendable audio sources online for learning IPA, maybe even with a tutorial?) ---Sluzzelin 21:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for that quick translation and reply. I am writing a family history and needed it.75.203.6.107 13:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)gerryc

I remember that word from an elderly Hungarian man I used to meet once or twice a year at parties. I am pretty sure that he had a second word that sounded very similar, but had a radically different meaning: I rather think it differed only the length of one of the vowels. My impression was that it was a standard joke to trot out for bamboozling foreigners. --ColinFine 23:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, ColinFine. The joke is that many foreigners, particularly German speaking ones, mispronounce the second é as an e. This will sound virtually identical to egész seggedre which translates to To your entire butt! (segg meaning behind/posterior). ---Sluzzelin 01:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

And now we now why it offended Aunt Helen. —Angr 09:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

English grammar corrections.

Hello, I have to underline the mistakes in the questions in simple terms and how would I make these corrections clear to a english learning student? Thank you kindly for your help, much appreciated.

1. "I'd like some informations about your courses." "Certainly, here's our brochure."

2. "Have you got any money?" "Yes, I've been to the bank yesterday"

3. "Is John ill? He's lost a lot of weight." "Yes. he is rather slender these days, isn't he?"

4. "Why didn't you answer the telephone?" "Because I had a bath." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sandrinha (talk • contribs) 17:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Wasn't this answered recently? Btw, are you certain the examples contain grammatical errors? 惑乱 分からん 17:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, on January 16. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 01:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not exactly clear that this is what you're asking, but here goes:
1. The word "information" does not take an "s" to be plural; it already acts as a plural. The correct way to say it is "I'd like some information."
2. The second sentence would be better stated in the simple past; "I went to the bank yesterday."
3. The word "slender" usually means thin in an attractive way. If someone was ill, you would say simply "thin."
4. The phrase "had a bath" notes that you have taken a bath sometime in the past; the sentence as it is means that you didn't answer the phone because you were clean. You would say "I was in the bath" to note that you were physically bathing at the time of the phone call.TheSPY 01:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

To add on to TheSPY's excellent comments:

• 1. The second sentence would be more correctly written "Certainly; here's our brochure." or "Certainly. Here's our brochure."
• 2. This one is troublesome because the question is very poorly phrased. "Have you got any money?" doesn't necessarily mean "Do you have cash on hand?"; it can also be taken to mean "Do you have any money in your bank account?" or "Are you broke?" Because of the ambiguity, it's not a good question to ask in an examination setting. A better question would be, "Do you have any money on you?", in which case cash on hand would be assumed. Also, you can't specify a definite date or time with the construction "I've been to xxx". Anything more specific than "I've just been to xxx" requires a different construction, such as "I was at the bank yesterday" or "I stopped by the bank this morning". (As a North American, the construction "have you got" sets my teeth on edge, but I believe it's considered proper phrasing in the UK. We'd generally say "do you have".)
• 3. Unless the answerer knows for absolute certain that John has been sick/unwell, he should never say "yes"; if he does know, the second part of the sentence should tie in better with the first. The word "he" in the reply should also be capitalized if it comes after a full stop. Possibilities include:

"Is John unwell? He's lost a lot of weight."

"I don't know. He looks rather drawn these days, doesn't he?"

or

"Is John not well? He's lost a lot of weight."

"Yes, and I agree; he does look rather thin, doesn't he?"

By the way, "ill" is considered pseudo-genteel by many English speakers, and "sick" can have unfortunate connotations. "Unwell" seems to be more popular worldwide, although in Canada you're likely to hear "not well".

As TheSPY says, "slender" has a positive connotation in many English dialects. A willow is slender. Miss Universe is slender. Someone who's not been well is thin. "Drawn" is also a good word if the thin person also looks tired.

• 4. "I had a bath" puts the action in the unspecified past, not at the time the questioner made the phone call. The proper phrase would be "I was in the bath" or "I was taking a bath". The latter is more personal. (Actually, the most correct response would be "I'm sorry; I was away from the phone", unless you were talking to a good friend or family member. Nobody cares why you didn't answer, and baths are private matters.) --Charlene 03:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The British Grenadiers

And when the siege is over, we to the town repair. does we to the town repair mean

• we go to the city
• we build the city up again

-- 172.173.129.218 20:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The first, "we go to the city". Repair can mean, according to M-W[1]: "1 a : to betake oneself : GO <repaired to the judge's chambers> b : to come together : RALLY 2 obsolete : RETURN". This meaning is supported by the context (the next line is "The townsmen cry, "Hurrah, boys, here comes a Grenadier!"), and also, you wouldn't use (even, I think, in older English usage) the preposition to with repair in the fixing sense. schi ^talk 20:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Trapezius, Biceps, Triceps, Quadraceps

What are the plural forms of these words? Colloquially they are the same as singular, but what about according to Latin "rules?" X [Mac Davis] (How's my driving?) 20:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The biceps page says "bicepses," so I assume the last three follow that pattern (not in Latin though, I don't think). Don't know about the trapezius. -Elmer Clark 21:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The Classical plural of biceps is bicipites, but the meaning of the word in Classical Latin is "having two heads" (like Zaphod Beeblebrox). AnonMoos 21:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Well, to begin with, these are not nouns, but adjectives (four-headed, two-headed, three-headed, trapezoid), so to get it right in latin, you'll have to use their full names:

• Musculus quadriceps femoris.
• Musculus biceps brachii.
• Musculus triceps brachii.
• Musculus trapezius.

I'm not certain about the latin myself, but our article on Musculus biceps brachii states that the correct plural would be bicipites, but that this form is considered pedantic, and therefore rarely is used. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC) 21:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

language translation

what does "soc it galesi brescia" mean?`````

I'm assuming it's soc lt Galesi-Brescia (not it), an abbreviation for società limitata Galesi-Brescia. Società limitata means limited company in Italian law (or maybe in older Italian law, I'm not sure about that). Galesi-Brescia was an Italian weapons manufacturer. ---Sluzzelin 21:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Free dictionaries online

I am searching for free dictionaries online that are monolingual, non-English and with the pronunciation of the word (not IPA but audio). Some hints? Mr.K. 21:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Use an English-to-X dictionary to find out what the word for "dictionary" is in language X, and then do a search for that word using a search engine. The site might be completely in that language, but most of them should be fairly easy to navigate anyway: just look for a box you can type some text into, and hit Enter. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Latin-English Translation

Could some translate the following latin motto for me?

Recalcitrantem cogo

Thanks142.161.94.69 21:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Cogo is a lot of things, but in this case, how about "I compel" or "I confine" or "I restrict (the) disobedient (man/person)" Adam Bishop 23:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

"I compel him (or her) despite his (or her) resistance," since in most likely contexts there would be a definite direct object understood as agreeing with the circumstantial participle recalcitrantem. ("A/the disobedient person" is certainly grammatical, though, if that fits.) Wareh 01:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Raúl vs. Raoul

In a text quoting Cuban chess champion José Raúl Capablanca, the author (a native speaker of Hebrew writing in English) spelled the middle name Raoul. Are there some guidelines as to which languages and countries favor that latter spelling? (e.g.: Raoul Wallenberg of Sweden). I'm supposing that the diphthong "ou" represents the distinct sound of the second vowel that follows the [a], to avoid writing "au", that would appear as a diphthong and get pronounced as a single sound, in languages not using the accent diacritic to indicate that the letter "u" here represents a separate, second vowel sound. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 22:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I think these days it mostly depends on how the person actually spells or spelled his name. Capablanca spelled it Raúl, so that's how I'd spell it in every language using the Latin alphabet. The French Wikipedia spells his middle name Raúl too, even though Raoul is the French way. In cases such as the Abkhazian politican Raul Khadjimba, whose name is originally spelled in cyrillic letters, you actually find Raoul and Raul Khadjimba in French transliterations, but only Raul Khadjimba in most other languages. A number of non-French people all around the world gave their sons the French version of the name too. Some famous examples were the Hungarian born Raoul Bott, Viennese dadaist Raoul Hausmann or American film director Raoul Walsh. ---Sluzzelin 00:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

(Acknowledged on User talk page -- Deborahjay 09:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC))

When you quote someone, you shouldn't alter what they say, but you might want to use the phrase sic to indicate there's a mistake in such a quote. Is this in text quoted on Wikipedia?- 131.211.210.13 09:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point - that's a copyediting rule I certainly endorse and practice. In this case, the text (I'm editing for publication in English translation), in a non-Latin alphabet, quotes an apocryphal remark attributed to this figure, and no citation of any print source is provided. I choose to use the Spanish spelling of the subject's name as he was Cuban-born, and consider Sluzzelin's response to be definitively supportive. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 10:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I have quite often seen the spelling "Raoul" in Capablanca's case; it's even used in the title of a famous book about him, "Het schaakphenomeen José Raoul Capablanca y Graupera" which was co-authored by another World Champion, Max Euwe. The Swedish wikipedia also calls him José Raoul Capablanca. Skarioffszky 10:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Going back to my initial supposition about the spelling of diphthongs in the various foreign languages - do Dutch and Swedish not use the accented letter "ú" and therefore be likely to substitute the "ou" to indicate the vowel following the letter "a" in that name? -- Deborahjay 12:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it: in Dutch it's not usual to change foreign names for that reason, and I can also find examples of "Raoul" in Polish, German and English contexts:

Partie Jose Raoula Capablanki 1901-1927 and José Raoul Capablanca Ein Schachmythos [2], "'Not since Raoul Capablanca from Cuba has anyone from Latin or Central America generated so much excitement.’ So wrote Mark Tran on page 9 of The Guardian, 5 October 1991" 4256, "On page 9 of The Human Side of Chess (London, 1953) he said that he learned chess ‘a few months after my 11th birthday, in 1921, when I read that Jose Raoul Capablanca had wrested the World Championship in chess from Emanuel Lasker’." 3872 (examples from the website of chess historian Edward G. Winter [3])

My guess is that Capablanca may at some point in his career have taken the French spelling (he was not only a chess player but also a diplomat and French was the language of diplomacy) or that some publications in the beginning of the century started to "normalize" his foreign name and that the alternative caught on. Skarioffszky 14:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Based on the above comments (to date: 08:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)), I'm inclined to accept the "international" spelling (i.e. not sticking with the native Spanish) as valid for my purposes, for two reasons: (a) Capablanca himself was active on the international scene, and (b) this English-language text is intended for a global readership on several continents. Though I lack conclusive evidence (and haven't time to research) that the subject himself adopted or otherwise authorized the use of the non-native spelling, at least I'm in good company! Many thanks!! -- Deborahjay 08:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Catalan and Castellano, Mutual intelligibility

I noticed on Catalan television last summer in a talk show that one of the participants spoke Castellano, while the others spoke Catalan. Evidently, the Castellano speaker understood Catalan without trouble. Just about everybody in Catalunya speeks Castellano fluently (although I have noticed that people in their twenties often have a characteristic accent that the parent generation lacks). I doubt, however, that the converse holds. I have three questions:

1. To what extent do children in the Castellano-speaking parts of Spain learn Catalan, and the others Spanish languages?
2. Approximately what proportion of native inhabitants of Madrid understand Catalan?
3. Has anyone else here observed this phenomenon - conversations where one participant speaks Catalan and another speaks Castellano? In a conversation between a Norwegian and a Swede, each uses his own language because they are mutually intelligible, but (to me, at least) the "distance" between Castellano and Catalan is much greater than the "distance" between Norwegian and Swedish. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

PS: Is there a technical term for "distance" as used in question 3? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

"Distance" is a term widely used to discuss the concept, although I just saw a presentation that used the word "dialectometry". Measuring the distance between dialects and languages is not easy. The only rigorous, objective effort I've heard of is this one, which uses conditional entropy and Levenshtein distance to try to measure information loss between dialects.

The main problem is that where two language communities coexist for a long time, people become multilingual. For example, in Switzerland, I've heard conversations where one person spoke German and the other spoke French, each speaking their own language and understanding the other just fine. Yet, no one would ask if French and German are similar enough for people to understand each other automatically. Catalan/Spanish bilingualism is a bit like Swedish/Norwegian bilingualism in that the two language are in many ways similar, but it's also like French/German bilingualism in Switzerland in that many people just speak and understand both, so you can use whichever. There's something of a continuum between the two kinds of multilingualism.

I would expect that teenagers in Barcelona might well be highly bilingual, but that teenagers in Madrid would have no easier a time understanding Catalan than they would Italian. --Diderot 10:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Diderot, for an insightful comment, and for a very interesting link! I posed this question also on the Spanish equivalent of the reference desk, and the answer somewhat surprised me:

(From Usuario Camimo, any errors in translation are of course mine!):

In lack of surveys on the subject, and leaving aside the fact that the concept of "understanding a language" implies a gradation, is evident that any Spanish-speaking adult is moderately able to understand Catalan without too much difficulty, always better if the conditions are optimal: clear articulation and separation between words, etc. As with Galician, the linguistical similarities between the languages are so strong that this is logical.

In no community of Spain where the only official language is Castellano, does the obligatory curriculum of a pre-college student include the language of other communities (there are particular cases like, for example, the possibility of voluntarily attending such classes in some centers of Asturias Gallego...).

Interestingly, the Spanish page on mutual intelligibility lists Castellano and Catalan as mutually inteligible, as well as Castellano and Italian! --NorwegianBlue ^talk 09:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

When a Czech person and a Slovak person meet, the Czech speaks Czech and the Slovak speaks Slovak. (Of course, if a Slovak person is living in the Czech Republic and interacts with Czechs every day he/she would learn and use Czech with his/her colleagues.) When Czechoslovakia was around, there was a "federal" TV channel that alternated between the two languages, even on the same newscast. So Czechs were used to hearing Slovak. Interestingly, Czech kids today can't understand Slovak like their parents can because they haven't been exposed to it as much. When I was living in Prague and would visit Bratislava, I would speak in Czech, and the waiters/bartenders/ticket sellers would answer in Slovak. I had to explain that I could barely understand Czech, let alone Slovak. -- Mwalcoff 23:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting! We have a similar situation in the eastern parts of Norway. When I grew up, Norway had only one TV channel, but the eastern parts of the country could receive Swedish television as well. Therefore, I and my generation understand Swedish much better than our children do. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 09:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Holds true for Swedish and Danish as well. I grew up in the southern part of Sweden, with convenient access to Danish TV. As a result, I understand Danish without a problem, and can even speak (a little). When I meet people who live in Stockholm however, they tell me that it's just impossible to understand what a Dane says. TERdON 18:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)