Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

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WikiProject Albums (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt at building a useful resource on recordings from a variety of genres. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Reliability of Playlouder and Dotmusic[edit]

Hello. I've been browsing archive.org for some older sites to source reviews from. I've come across Playlouder and Dotmusic as notable sources? Thoughts? Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Both Playlouder and Dotmusic are used for scores on Metacritic, which usually uses reliable sources [1][2]. Both had a stable staff and editors and did not accept reviews from users. I think that all these features make them reliable sources. Lewismaster (talk) 07:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Glad you agree. Before adding them to the reliable source page, I'll let this stay a bit more if any further discussion is required. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I have no objections either, especially Dotmusic, which has been around for decades and is now owned by Yahoo. Sergecross73 msg me 15:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Great! If there are no further objections, I'll add them to list.Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Genres for unreleased albums[edit]

Now, this is something that really bugs me: people adding genres to albums of which we have not even heard a teaser, let alone a single song, just "because all of that band/artist's music is tagged like that". I find this really unprofessional, as we should not assume "artistic inertia", particularly in a medium where style changes are far from unheard of. There are of course occasionally primary source claims of the style a particular album will take, but even that should be taken with a pinch of salt (if I had a record for every album claimed to be rock and roll or punk and that ended up being completely unlike them, I probably would have a much larger collection).

Case in point, The Book of Souls: while I don't expect for Maiden to suddenly release an album full of NWWesque collages and folk ditties, it is not outside the realm of possibilities that they'll end up doing something that's much closer to progressive metal or even power metal than straight up heavy metal (yes, I know the term also works as an umbrella for all metal, but it's a de facto particular style). 190.109.207.10 (talk) 17:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

You are correct in your thought process, unless there's a source saying otherwise. If the album isn't out, and there aren't any sources on the genre, then it should remain blank per WP:V, and the burden to provide a sources would be on the person who wants to include the genre. On other hand, if there's a reliable source out there defining the genre, then that would be a different story, dependent on who the source is, and how they came to such a conclusion. Sergecross73 msg me 20:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
As an aside, I find it completely baffling that people take more interest in labelling the genre "correctly" than improving the article itself. All the action on Hounds of Love, for example, seems to centre on what the album's genre is, rather than improving the main body of text of what is surely an album that should be a candidate for GA at some point. Richard3120 (talk) 20:58, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Oh I agree. It's truly baffling how people obsess and argue over their on subjective view on genre. It's a constant problem across a wide variety of music articles. Sergecross73 msg me 02:14, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Notability of wrestling album stubs[edit]

Hi WP:Albums guys, I'm from WP:Pro Wrestling. We have several stubs of music albums on professional wrestling. I want to know how to prove their notability (or lack thereof, then delete them). The wrestling websites I frequent don't mention these music albums. Is there a standard list of music album or music album review websites which if a album fails to appear on those, then it's considered not notable?

Thank you very much and have a nice day. starship.paint ~ KO 06:58, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Like a Virgin#Requested move 28 June 2015[edit]

RM discussion ongoing; make comments there. --George Ho (talk) 03:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Table of assessing album articles by importance/quality[edit]

Looking at the table assessing articles by importance/quality on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Assessment page, it's clear that it includes a lot of junk. The 1,284 albums listed as "N/A importance, stub class" seem to consist of formerly existing articles that have been AfD'd at some point, and now redirect to the article about the artist themselves. Is there no way of removing these articles from the categories and the table? I think a large number of the Low Importance albums could happily be AfD'd or redirected to a parent article: I'm willing to make a start on this task myself, although with tens of thousands of them it's going to take a very long time to work through them all.

I also think some of the importance ratings should be re-evaluated, particularly in the High Importance category – among the 20 albums categorised as "high importance, stub class", and with all due respect to the artists and their fans, I don't think anybody could seriously claim that Magia (Toque Profundo album), The Walking or Wired for Sound (among others) are albums of "high" importance. Am I able to reclassify them myself? I do believe that thoroughly re-evaluating the Top and High Importance albums, particularly down at the Start and Stub Class levels, would help to focus attention on the genuinely important albums where work should be prioritised, and help improve them. Richard3120 (talk) 19:54, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

You've brought up several worthwhile points here, but for now I'll only reply about one of them. The fact that at some point someone rated an article (accurately or not) as being of low importance to the WikiProject is definitely not a reason to nominate the article for deletion. And along similar lines, the fact that someone graded an article (accurately or not) as stub class is also not a reason for an AfD nomination. To say the same thing a different and more positive way, if an album meets the notability guidelines its article should normally be kept. Mudwater (Talk) 20:13, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
My apologies Mudwater, you are quite correct, and I didn't make myself very clear. I'm not one for deleting articles gung ho simply because I don't know about them: even if the only information is a tracklisting and a single reference that it reached number 12 on the Norwegian album chart, that's good enough for me to keep the article. I'm talking about the ones that don't even have as much as this... they don't appear to meet WP:N in any way. I would rather these pages were redirected to a parent article about the artist. Richard3120 (talk) 20:29, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Edit: Here's an example – the album A/2 by Arcade. Just a tracklisting: I can't find any reviews on the internet, and even AllMusic simply gives the album two out of five stars, but no review text. As far as I can tell, the album never charted anywhere. So it does not meet either WP:N or WP:NM. What's the best solution for an article like this? Placing a notability header tag on the article, even though it is extremely unlikely that it will ever be improved? Merging to the parent article about the band? I'm just trying to collect opinions here, because there are many album articles like this on Wikipedia and I think we should establish a consensus about what we should do about them. Richard3120 (talk) 21:09, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
@Richard3120: Thanks for clarifying. I do think that an album should be notable to have its own article, of course. So then we get into a discussion about what meets the minimum requirements for notability. I generally prefer to give an album the benefit of the doubt, so to speak. Taking A/2 as an example, as you mentioned it's listed on Allmusic, and it's also listed on Discogs. Additionally it turns up on some less well-known websites like Spirit of Metal and Heavy Harmonies, though, as you say, without any reviews that show up in a quick search of the internet. But in my view that's good enough to raise it above the level of the (hypothetical) CD that my cousin's band put out, after they got a few paying gigs at the bar down the street, and that's not mentioned anywhere except on their Facebook page. So I'd say A/2 rises to the minimum level of notability, though it's possible that not everyone would agree. Mudwater (Talk) 22:44, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
My worry is that almost every album ever commercially released is listed on AllMusic and Discogs, so by that criterion every album is notable and worthy of its own Wikipedia article. You may say "that's fine by me", but I'm not certain that's what Wikipedia is supposed to be about, and from the WikiProject Albums point of view it would struggle to keep track and manage all those albums.
Looking at Wikipedia:Notability (music)#Recordings, the only one of the seven criteria that A/2 could possibly meet is the first one, "has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble who created it". AllMusic is fine, but I know Discogs is not considered an RS because it is user-generated content, and the two metal blogs you mentioned probably aren't either. So that leaves just one RS, and the criterion states "multiple", so for me that would exclude the album and render it non-notable. Of course, I'm sure this record was reviewed in various hard rock magazines like Kerrang! back in 1994, but I don't know who would have access to those to add to the article.
Don't worry, I'm not going to go on a deleting binge: I've been on Wikipedia more than five years and never once nominated an article for AfD. In any case, my priority would be to get the high importance albums up to scratch first: these are the ones that are going to get more page views, rather than the trivial, obscure records. Richard3120 (talk) 02:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@Richard3120: Expanding and improving the articles about high importance albums in a very worthwhile goal. And related to that, I agree with your point that some albums currently tagged as high importance might not belong on the list. The flip side is that there are probably albums that should be tagged as high importance but current aren't. For the clicking convenience of interested editors, here are a few links:
Mudwater (Talk) 14:46, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
The Top importance list isn't too much of a problem: I'd probably argue that Xx (album) ahouldn't be there, but it's an FA so the importance is somewhat irrelevant now, and down the bottom of the list I might question the rating of Millennium (Backstreet Boys album), Gaucho (album) and Racine Carrée, among others. The High importance list is more problematic, there are many albums I would re-rate downwards. Conversely, looking at the Low importance list I can see it includes GA-rated albums by Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, Elvis Presley, No Doubt, Destiny's Child and John Lennon, among others. I'm not saying that just because Presley and Lennon are world-famous their albums should automatically be rated higher – the albums in question, King Creole and Rock 'n' Roll aren't exactly the artists' best work, but they are probably as important as Gaucho, and yet we have a difference of Top to Low importance. Something doesn't seem quite right there. Richard3120 (talk) 16:56, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
I've just noticed that All Mod Cons and The Lexicon of Love, two of the indisputably key albums of the British post-punk/new wave era, don't have any rating on the importance scale at all – astounding. I'd consider them both High Importance, but then again I'm British and perhaps an American wouldn't feel the same way. Richard3120 (talk) 17:47, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Fixed AMC TLOL. In my view, if you feel very strongly that a particular album either should or should not be tagged as high importance, as in this case, I'd say go ahead and change it. I've already joined in the fun myself, adding two and removing one: E72, LD, DATD. Mudwater (Talk) 18:07, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
I've tagged Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not as high importance as well – another one without any rating at all, amazing. It's also only tagged as Start-class in quality, although looking over it I think it's at least a C-class and a candidate for B-class assessment: I need to have a proper look.
It's tricky trying to accurately assess albums if they weren't hits worldwide. I know the Jam mean nothing in the US, but in the UK they were every bit as important and influential a punk/new wave band as the Sex Pistols and the Clash, and commercially more successful than either, and All Mod Cons was their breakthrough third album that made them big stars. Conversely, the Dixie Chicks mean absolutely nothing to me or to the rest of Britain, but I'm quite prepared to believe that Taking the Long Way is a top importance level album, judging by its sales and awards in the US. Richard3120 (talk) 18:45, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

If an album article redirects to the artist the two main options are 1) remove project template and redirect the talkpage to the artist talkpage, and 2) change the project template class to "Redirect", and tag the talkpage with {{talk page of redirect}}. Generally, if there has been no previous discussion on the talkpage a straightforward redirect would be appropriate. If there has been some discussion there needs to be a decision made as to if the discussion should be left in place and option 2 followed, or if the discussion should be archived on the talkpage of the artist page and option 1 used. That decision can come down to common sense; though if in doubt ask for a second opinion.

As regards A/2 - that album is clearly not notable, so I have redirected it to the artist. For an album to be considered notable, it needs some non-trivial coverage in reliable sources. Mere listing is regarded as not significant enough. SilkTork ✔Tea time 20:48, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks SilkTork, it's good to get some other feedback. However, there are literally thousands, if not tens of thousands, of album articles of similar "notability" though. At the moment I think it's probably more important to concentrate on improving top, high and mid-level importance albums rather than waste my time going through the non-notable ones. I'm going to go through the lists of albums without an importance rating and at least give a rating to the articles about albums that definitely ARE notable but have no rating, so that they appear in the "rated" lists and people can see whether they want to work on improving them – it's usually easy to pick them out because they have the highest scores in the right-hand column. Richard3120 (talk) 02:27, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

While we are talking about importance, I see there are ~35,000 stub-class and ~13,000 start-class albums currently without importance ratings. While it wouldn't be perfect, does anyone think it worthwhile to request that a bot rates all of these as 'low importance'? Something from Category:Autoassessment bots could easily do this, and it would tidy up the table a little bit. It's a huge assumption to rate them all as low importance, of course, but any contentious ratings could quickly be reassessed by humans. What does everyone else think? — sparklism hey! 15:34, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi @Sparklism: that sounds like a good idea to me. I should point out, however, that I wasn't kidding when I said there was a lot of junk floating about that should probably be cleaned up, and I will stress again that I don't mean deleting articles by death metal bands who reached no. 26 in Poland in 1985, that's good enough to keep as a Low-importance, stub-class article in my opinion.
(1) A large number of the albums listed as "NA" or "???" ratings, and indeed many of the Low and even some Mid-importance albums, don't actually "exist" on Wikipedia – clearly they did at some point, but were AfD'd and if you click on a lot of the links to albums in those stub- and start-class ratings that you mention above, they now simply redirect to another page, usually the artist's Wikipedia entry. To give an example, try clicking on Cormorant (album) from the NA-importance, stub-class list. Is there any way of "cleaning" these no-longer-existent albums off the system? That would cut several thousand pages out that the bot would not have to sort.
(2) Lots of albums created by single-interest editors, usually of non-notable artists. See for example Benn Jordan and the numerous albums in his discography that have had Wikipedia pages created for each one of them. The guy sounds interesting, for sure, but almost all the references used are to blogs, his own website, his Bandcamp site, or the Alphabasic site, which is his own record label. A quick Google search struggled to come up with anything which might be useful as an RS. So unfortunately I would suggest that none of his work meets WP:NM.
(3) I'm a Depeche Mode fan, but pages like Recording the Angel and Recording the Universe are pointless. A looooong list of not commercially available albums, except from the band's own website – the only references used are to Discogs (a non-RS) simply to confirm track listings, and the relevant page on the band's website, which doesn't seem to be operational any more. The concept is interesting and deserves mentioning, but far better to do so in a paragraph on the relevant album's Wikipedia article than having its own page, I would suggest... and without all the endless track listings.
(4) Stuff like this is marked as mid-importance?
(5) Not quite as important, but I've come across various DVDs of live tours marked as belonging to WikiProject Albums – should this be the case? Richard3120 (talk) 17:11, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Edit: Actually, thinking about it, that's probably the very reason the NA-importance category exists - for all the redirected album articles that can no longer be categorised because they don't exist... doh. That being the case, an automatic move by a bot wouldn't be a good move then. Richard3120 (talk) 17:36, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I think you're right about that - the 'NA' category clearly has a use. I'm thinking that a bot could just tag all the '???'-rated pages as low-importance, and leave the 'NA' class pages alone. That would tidy the table up, somewhat.
I also agree with you about those Depeche Mode pages - it's worth mentioning elsewhere, but they don't need their own articles. I might even take them to AfD at some point.
I've been changing the importance rating for a few albums myself as I've come across them - I guess we just need to follow the WP:BRD cycle for things like this. With so many album pages around these days, there's always bound to be stuff that slips through the net, and you're probably right with what you stated right at the top of this thread: best to work on the more important stuff than worry about what's down at the bottom. Still, I seem to keep plugging away....Cheers! — sparklism hey! 18:59, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't think people take much notice of the importance ratings on this project, but they are useful as a guide to seeing what albums need work as a priority. I guess most of the ratings were assessed originally by the people who created the articles – that's the only explanation I can think of why all Europe's albums have been tagged as Mid-importance, despite the fact everybody the world over only knows one song by them. That's not such a big deal, what's more important are cases like the three albums I mentioned above in my discussion with Mudwater slipping through the net as completely unrated: as a fellow Brit you'll appreciate why I believe they are all Mid-importance albums at least. It seems more important to me to tag these with some sort of rating so that people can see them and are aware they need work to get them up to GA or B-class. Richard3120 (talk) 21:08, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Yep, agreed. I'd've thought there shouldn't be too many albums of genuine importance that lack at least some sort of rating, because they would be the articles that naturally attract traffic/editors, but your examples show that that isn't necessarily the case. I'm particularly surprised about Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not, since it's certainly a recent enough album to have attracted plenty of activity. You're right though - maybe importance just isn't that important. — sparklism hey! 07:54, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Ultimate Guitar[edit]

I often run into this site when searching for album reviews. Even though it's listed as an unreliable source at WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES, it never seems that a consensus was ever established whether it's reliable or not, not even from the thread that was linked there. So, should this be clarified to mean only the user reviews are unreliable? I noticed several albums on there are reviewed by "UG Team", a group of staff users from the site. Kokoro20 (talk) 04:26, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

It's been like a week since I posted this. Does anyone have any input? Kokoro20 (talk) 04:15, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry, guess I missed this one. I agree that only staff-produced content should be acceptable. As a matter of fact, given the apparent controversy, I mostly use UG only when I'm struggling to find multiple good sources to build a decent reception section. Victão Lopes Fala! 04:45, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, unless I'm missing something, there was never an actual consensus as to whether or not Ultimate Guitar is reliable at all. That's why I asked if it's fine to still cite staff reviews like we already do with AllMusic, (which recently start to accept user reviews) Sputnikmusic, AbsolutePunk, among others. Kokoro20 (talk) 05:04, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Yep, that's why I try not so use it as long as there are other good sources for reviews. If there is no consensus, then at least staff-produced content is acceptable until a discussion says otherwise. User-generated content remains unreliable, as with other sources. Victão Lopes Fala! 14:53, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
I think this sounds okay – sort of reminds of Sputnikmusic and the situation we discussed regarding Rockfreaks. JG66 (talk) 04:59, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
I didn't see this to now, but yes, I agree that we should handle it as we do Sputnikmusic. Some of their staff interviews in particular have been great sources of content for a number of articles I've worked on, so it would definitely be beneficial to use in some capacity. Sergecross73 msg me 15:00, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the input everyone. I'll go ahead and add it to WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES now. Kokoro20 (talk) 22:38, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

"Facelift"[edit]

The usage and primary topic of facelift is under discussion, see talk:facelift (disambiguation) -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:34, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Duplicate article[edit]

User Bogglenose123 has for some reason taken it upon themselves to create Get Weird (album) when Get Weird already exists – it appears the text for the two versions is identical, and the sole difference between them is the addition of the alternative cover for the deluxe edition of the album. What's the correct solution for this... copying the extra album cover to Get Weird and then placing a redirect on the newly created article? (As there are no other articles titled Get Weird, the version with the "album" disambiguator should be the one to go.) And if this is the correct solution, is there somebody able to do this for me please, as redirects are not my strong point? 00:55, 29 July 2015 (UTC)Richard3120 (talk)

Done, redirected the duplicate article and added the extra album cover to the original one. Simply deleting the other page would be an option too, but given its title, it my be worth keeping. Victão Lopes Fala! 01:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Victor Lopes, I considered deletion as well, but looking at Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#A10. Recently created article that duplicates an existing topic, the suggestion is that a redirect is the better option if the article title is a plausible alternative one, which of course it is. Thanks for your help. Richard3120 (talk) 01:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

"Boy Cried Wolf"[edit]

The usage and primary topic of Boy Cried Wolf is under discussion, see talk:Boy Cried Wolf (album) -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:07, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Today's featured article/August 17, 2015[edit]

A summary of a Featured Article tagged by this wikiproject will appear on the Main Page soon. It mostly follows the lead section; how does it look? - Dank (push to talk) 13:22, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Wilson & Alroy?[edit]

Can some one point me to any discussion on Wilson & Alroy's record review site as a source or give the results of any discussion on if it is considered acceptable? Site is at: http://www.warr.org/cgi-bin/randompickpan2.cgi Thanks! Airproofing (talk) 03:06, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

According to their awards section, they were mentioned at EW and Bass Player Magazine. I don't think that's enough to make them notable. Erick (talk) 04:01, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, they look like a couple of enthusiastic, but unpublished, music fans with their own blog, which isn't going to be enough to pass WP:RS. Richard3120 (talk) 04:27, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
OK. Thanks.Airproofing (talk) 19:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Spin Alternative Record Guide[edit]

FYI, since I've seen this book incorporated often for scores in the ratings template but credited erroneously as Spin, I created Spin Alternative Record Guide yesterday, so feel encouraged to use it and link it properly. Similar to The Rolling Stone Album Guide rather than Rolling Stone. Dan56 (talk) 05:25, 2 August 2015 (UTC)