Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

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WikiProject Football was featured in a WikiProject Report in the Signpost on 3 March 2008.

This WikiProject was featured on the WikiProject report at the Signpost on 9 July 2012.

On 4 August 2022, it was proposed that this page be moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Association football. The result of the discussion was not moved.

List of foreign footballers in the Persian Gulf Pro League

Is this normal? I've never seen a list of foreigners in the Premier League, seems wrong somehow. Govvy (talk) 08:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's at List of foreign Premier League players. There are loads of such articles -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blimey, that Premier League one is outdated, I don't know, seems pointless to me, because the list would be off the chart and paradoxical. Govvy (talk) 08:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has no sources at all (as does its partner 1920-2000 one) and would almost certainly be deleted at AfD unless such a source exists. Black Kite (talk) 09:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's highly unlikely that a single source exists listing all foreign PL players for its entire 30+ year history, so you'd potentially be looking at individually sourcing well over 2500 players, a number which is of course going to continue to balloon given that dozens of new foreign players join the PL every season..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I stand corrected, the one and only source in the article does actually allow users to bring up all PL players of any given nationality using filters. There's probably still the question of whether we need an article listing nearly 3000 players.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would be perfectly fine with deleting these for every league. They're mostly just trivia- especially for large leagues like the Premier League where a large percentage of players are foreign. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like for some leagues, such as the Premier League, where foreign players are a large percentage and there are no (afaik?) restrictions on foreign players, there isn't much point to such an article. However, there are many smaller leagues which have restrictions on number of foreign players and then such pages are more managable and also more notable. --SuperJew (talk) 10:30, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention the constant need to maintain these lists, shall we have a quick consensus, on who is for deleting, to start with List of foreign Premier League players? Govvy (talk) 10:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is that any different than the constant need to maintain squad lists (both in club articles and in the navboxes)? I don't disagree about the need, but I don't think it is a relevant consideration if to keep or delete. --SuperJew (talk) 11:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just noting that as a sort of start, several second-tier leagues have had their lists deleted. For the country that started this thread, Iran, it happened via PROD; for some countries it was through AFD including Norway and Albania. Second tier often have bigger problems with verifiability.

However, it used to be normal for newspapers to report/list all the foreign players in a league at a given time. In the Norwegian press, this was even done for England and Italy. But that was a long time ago when foreign players were few and far between.

A final point is that a large number of players are not "foreign" to Country A in that they were born there, they just represent another country. Geschichte (talk) 17:55, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I prodded List of foreign footballers in Iran 1920–2000, strange scope compared to the others mentioned aboive. Geschichte (talk) 17:55, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

regarding your final point, there just needs to be a clear definition of what the meaning of "foreign player" is. Many leagues have rules for "visa players" --SuperJew (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jack Clarke (footballer, born 2000) stats?

They don't much up with soccerway however I think they match up with soccerbase, maybe someone who is better with stats can double check its all okay. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 10:42, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's just that Soccerway include playoffs in with regular season matches, but Soccerbase don't and neither does Wikipedia. The stats look OK to me. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

k, don't know why soccerway does that, cheer Struway. Govvy (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's a common problem. For players outside the UK, I often use worldfootball.net to differentiate play-off appearances. Robby.is.on (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Soccerway is arguably the most reliable source overall since it has reports on basically all the games that are accurate, but yeah they tend to mush stuff up and there are occasionally some small errors. In leagues where there are play-offs, I always look up the league season and see what the play-offs games were and then look to see if the player played in those games. Checking out other sources is a good option too-- Soccerbase, I like. WorldFootball.net is often erroneous for obscure players but for players that are well-document, it's good. FootballDatabase.eu can be an option too although I'm not sure how accurate it is, it's hit or miss. Paul Vaurie (talk) 10:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. FootballDatabase.eu is on our list of deprecated sources at WP:WPFLINKSNO. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:26, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm that Soccerway regards playoff matches in Norway as league matches. Norway has its own site fotball.no (Template:NFF) which should be double-checked - in case anyone writes about that country, which they probably don't... Soccerway is also garbage for youth international matches. WorldFootball.net is often bad for second-tier leagues, and don't mark loans as loans. Both sites have some erroneous positions. Checking multiple sources is good. Geschichte (talk) 17:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good article reassessment for Robbie Fowler

Robbie Fowler has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AC Milan (redux)

Hi all

Per this discussion, and the consensus recorded at WP:ACMILAN, there was agreement that the term "Milan" is potentially ambiguous, unless it's in prose and already clarified. The consensus is that we should use AC Milan in all of the following settings:

The first mention in the lede and main body
The infobox
The career statistics table
Section headings
Image captions

However, this seemingly does not cover usage in tables, and as we see at 2023–24 UEFA Champions League#Teams, amongst many other examples, there is a tendency for some editors just to put "Milan" only, even where the same table may or may not include Inter Milan.

I would like to propose adding table usage to the above consensus, and then fixing up all the cases where it's used. For Italians and purists, "Milan" may make sense, but for an average English reader I think this is confusing, and having the tables say "AC Milan" throughout is clearer and better.

Or if there's a good reason why such tables are not covered by the spirit of the above consensus, I'd also be interested to know why. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(waves hand) Do it! Govvy (talk) 21:40, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy: thanks. OK, I'm adding that in now. Shame there isn't more input into this discussion, but it's a unanimous consensus so far, and this would be in keeping with the previous consensus of avoiding doubt on the AC Milan / Milan debate. — Amakuru (talk) 12:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Champions League

I don't wanna sound too harsh, but I just took a peek at the UEFA Champions League's article, along with the History of the European Cup and UEFA Champions League. I have to say I was a bit let down by the current state of both articles. I'm pretty sure most of the editors in this project contribute to European football, so I hope somebody comes along and does justice to both articles. I would have given it a go but I don't wanna to ruin it with my Indian English, and my vacations ends tomorrow. My bucket list is pretty full already and hopefully somebody does the needful. Regards. Ken Tony ^{Shall we discuss?} 20:39, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

expat categories

If George Marsh (footballer, born 1998) has moved from Cyprus to Northern Ireland, are you suppose to remove the Expatriate men's footballers in Cyprus and English expatriate sportspeople in Cyprus categories? I never got the expat categories really, I still feel they are a waste of time. Govvy (talk) 11:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the Expatriate men's footballers in Cyprus category includes dozens who are long retired and at least one who is dead, so it's clearly designed to include anyone who has ever been an expat footballer in Cyprus and not just those who are one at this precise moment in time...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:58, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should be anyone who has ever been an expat in that country. Although I agree with the wider question of why we need these categories, when people will be in categories for the football teams. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

k, going back to the expat categories, I feel we don't really need them, I don't see how they are needed, it runs into over categorisation. We don't need huge amounts of categories on one biography. I feel Cristiano Ronaldo is a good example of too many cats in my opinion, maybe we can do with out them?? Govvy (talk) 21:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 'expatriate X' category system is so big and ingrained that it would be impossible to delete the entire thing, although I see merit in it. Giant Snowman 21:48, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GS, I am sure a bot can be setup to deal with any big changes. Govvy (talk) 14:16, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I meant this is a much bigger issue than just affecting footy articles... Giant Snowman 17:05, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we could always take the lead and get a bot to start with football-only categories like , up to other projects if they'd want to follow suitRedPatch (talk) 12:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It will need a Wikipedia-wide consensus to get rid of these kind of cats. In any event, as stated, they are useful. Giant Snowman 15:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neo Quimica Arena

Could an admin take a look at Neo Quimica Arena, which has been moved incorrectly? Hack (talk) 03:17, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hack this didn't require an admin, I just moved it back to Arena Corinthians. Would need an WP:RM to move to that name, which should also be Neo Química Arena (with the accent), and which is also a sponsored name, so I don't support using that name. For future reference, if someone moves a page from one name to another, anyone can move it back as long as no changes have been made to the redirect after initial move. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zamalek SC

I just updated the current season in the infobox, but there was some error messages about the kit images in the infobox that I couldn't see how to fix. Maybe someone else can fix the error messages? You can see the error messages when in edit mode. Govvy (talk) 11:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick fix, you'll want to remove "_zamalek_2324t" from both the pattern_la3 and pattern_ra3 parameters, as neither c:File:Kit left arm zamalek 2324t or c:File:Kit right arm zamalek 2324t were ever uploaded to Commons. A quick search seems to show that the sleeves are a solid colour, so there is no need to upload a pattern. Zadora13 (talk) 13:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2025 FIFA Club World Cup

I will bring here the discussion, since I posted at the article talk page a few days ago, but nobody else gave an opinion. I will just copy and paste what I wrote there:

"Analyzing FIFA's posts from the last days and also FIFA's website I definitely changed my opinion, since before that I was really undecided about how FIFA was really treating this tournament.

But, at least in my opinion (that's why I'm bringing it up for discussion), now FIFA already decided that 2025 will be the 1st edition of a new FIFA Club World Cup since they are now treating it as "the inaugural champion" and "the inaugural edition".

On FIFA's website: "The inaugural edition of the FIFA Club World Cup will signal the start of a new era in club football history with a brand-new trophy becoming synonymous with the diversity and quality of the global game as club football brings the world together in the United States." [4] Also: "Find out the information on the new club tournament" [5]

On FIFA's Instagram: "...by the inaugural champion" [6]

But, how we will treat the old tournaments?

In my opinion, as FIFA already unified Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Cup (2000-2023) titles as world champions, also we already correctly treat as a continuation ("It ran from 1960 to 2004, when it was succeeded by the FIFA Club World Championship" - at Intercontinental Cup article) and now we have the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup, with almost the same format, I think the best thing to do is treat the last as a continuation, since all are Super cup like format and different tournaments from this FIFA Club World Cup (2025 onwards)." SinisterUnion (talk) 15:45, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We just had this conversation on 2029 FIFA Club World Cup a month ago. Reliable, non-primary sources are broadly considering this a continuation of the existing tournament under a new format i.e. 2025 is the 21st edition, 2029 is the 22nd edition, rather than a completely new competition. FIFA just shot themselves in the foot with regards to branding. Jay eyem (talk) 04:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

First of all, as I said, I've been analyzing the latest posts and FIFA's website over the last few days, so there's a change from a month ago. There's now an emphasis on treating it as the inaugural tournament and the inaugural champion, so I think we have to adapt ourselves to the new reality.

Whether FIFA shot themselves in the foot or not is another story, but FIFA is treating this tournament as the inaugural one on its official website, what has more value than non-primary sources. Nevertheless, we already have the aforementioned non-primary sources adapting themselves to FIFA's decision to call it the new FIFA Club World Cup and 2025 as its inaugural edition, as we can see here: [1] or [2], for example. SinisterUnion (talk) 05:50, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]