Wikipedia talk:Japan-related topics notice board/Feb-May06

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Nominated for deletion

Hidatori and Tatari aki

Does anyone know enough to check the article Hidatori? User:Miya has questioned the content, and I'm unable to find any reference to the subject. It links to the article Tatari aki, which mentions the same Hidatori. If anyone knows about the contents of the Tatari aki article, please have a look and see if it's legitimate or if we have a hoax (or two) here. Thanks Fg2 11:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

My sources (Stephen Turnbull's "Samurai Sourcebook" and George Sansom's "History of Japan to 1334"), have no mention of a Hidatori family. So it may be a hoax. But it may just be obscure... I searched for "Hidatori" on Google, and all the relevant results were mirrors of this, or translations on other languages' Wikipedias. Good luck with this one. LordAmeth 12:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I searched for it using katakana, no results. Hiragana, the only results had to do with some kind of sewing machines, or coincidences. Nothing to do with Shikoku. No results in a couple of (not comprehensive) dictionaries of Japanese history. I put Template:factual on the article. Thanks for the book and Google search results. Fg2 12:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I searched "Tatari aki" on Google (-Wikipedia) and got three unique hits, the most relevant of which was a forum post. This one looks quite suspicious to me. — BrianSmithson 12:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
復讐の鬼 brings up lots of hits, many that seem to hint at some sort of endearing "legend", though 復讐の鬼の物語 brings up zero (as is) and ひだとり (I can't seem to find any kanji readings for that either, don't think I'll be able to since it's supposedly "medieval Japanese") doesn't seem to bring up anything relevant. It could be just a hoax, but I'm a little more willing to believe it's exaggeration, or maybe some sort of weird OR. Still nothing solid against it though.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  09:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
If it means anything, there is a place called 飛騨鶏 (hidatori, actually hida tori-chan), and ramen called 飛騨鳥 (hida-chou) in (surprise!) 飛騨市 (hida-shi). They could be named after the so called legend, but we're talking a ramen and a tiny yaki-tori shop here.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  09:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
  • ja:鬼 (Oni (Japanese folklore)) is a kind of demon or a sort of legendary ghost. But 復讐の鬼 may be just a metaphor of a person who is desparately eager to make a revenge(復讐).
  • 飛騨(ja:飛騨国) has nothing to do with Hidatori, which is far away from Shikoku (ja:四国).

The source may be a sort of game: see this site : [1] --Miya 13:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware of the actual meaning of 鬼, I was just taking what the article states (that the name is in medieval Japanese) at face value, because I know nothing about the Japanese of that period (or even that region). I agree that 飛騨 has nothing to do with hidatori, assuming any of it's real. You might have something with that link, although unfortunately there's no mention of hidatori. There's lots of pages, though, using the name "復讐の鬼", possibly as a character so I can't really be sure what to make of it. Just a thought... have you asked User:Hideous where he got his information from yet?  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  14:55, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't ask User:Hideous, who wrote to wikipedia only in October 2005.
I'm convinced that what User:Hideous wrote were hoaxes, though he might not be aware of that. He added Hidatori's name to Kamakura Shogunate, but if he were familiar with the History of Japan, he would not have done that. Maybe he was depend upon a fictional and incorrect source. "復讐の鬼" is not a proper noun but a compound common noun pronounced as "Hukushu-no-oni", nothing to do with "Tatari-aki", and there is no Tatari-aki in Japanese mythology, nor Hidatori in Japanese history.
I hope to request the deletion of these articles, Hidatori and Tatari aki, but don't know how. Would anyone request their deletion, instead?--Miya 05:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you at least say something to Hideous first? He might have some kind of reason, nobody knows. It will be much easier to list it for deletion once you request proof from the original writer.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  02:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to let people know, I nuked these some time ago. --Golbez 03:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Fg2 04:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Japanese sharking

Has anyone heard of this? If not, it looks like a good candidate for AFD. Neier 00:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Even if someone has heard of it, it's not a particularly good article -- with no reputable and verifiable sources (no sources at all, for that matter) it's not particularly convincing, and really smacks of urban legend... --awh (Talk) 00:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
There was a video (or a bunch of them) spreading around the web featuring some guy called "the panty man" or something like that, doing exactly what the article describes. In no place was the word "sharking" ever used, and it's probable that the content of the films might be fake anyways (set up). The author of this article is trying to create a neology, and also trying to promote some bogus videos that he thought were funny. AfD it.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  02:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Deletion listings

Several Japan-related articles have been entered in deletion processes. If you have an opinion on any of these, please visit the article and click on the link to the deletion process.

On regular Articles for Deletion lists: Members of the Tokyo Stock Exchange, 日曜日, Meiji zaka, Tsuna zaka, Shokouzaka and Sanko zaka and Tuna no tebiki zaka

On Proposed Deletion: Hidatori, Tatari aki

Fg2 10:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

For full disclosure :-) I also added the Proposed Deletion tag to Japanese sharking and 日記
Neier 12:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Soukou is up for deletion as well. — BrianSmithson 13:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Hidatori, Tatari Aki have been deleted. Fg2 04:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia wins.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  05:03, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Japanese sharking was de-prod'd, and is now up on AFD. Neier 12:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Japan nominated for Article Improvement Drive

A user has nominated Japan as a candidate for the Article Improvement Drive. See Talk:Japan for more information about this nomination. Fg2 03:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Japan-Related Featured Article Candidiates and Peer Review requests

Please see this section over on WikiProject Japan


Found on Articles for Deletion: Neta. Fg2 01:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The decision was to move to Wiktionary and remove from Wikipedia. Fg2 21:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

List of Japanese artists

Hi all. I recently discovered and began working on the list of Japanese artists. I'd like to make some pretty major changes to the format of the list, and I would like a little input before I go and do that and start a flame war and/or revert war for having acting unilaterally. Please take a look at Talk:List of Japanese artists and let me know what you think. LordAmeth 02:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

New feature on Portal: Japan Quiz

I've added a Japan Quiz to the Portal. I invite the community to contribute questions to it.

National Center Test for University Admissions

I've improved the National Center Test for University Admissions (Center Shiken) article further. Although I translated the entire list of tests from the Japanese Wikipedia ja:大学入試センター試験, it's rather long and maybe unnecessary for our non-Japanese readers. How about a simplified list of subjects and tests? Or would it merit a different article? Also, the article's still not complete - if you can include information on the various problems with the Shiken (as listed on the Japanese wiki), please do so! Thanks - Tangotango 06:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There are times when I push to shorten content of English articles about Japanese subjects, mainly because of the tendancy on the JA 'pedia for listing things and giving lots of rare facts, but I think this stands as a little bit of an exception. Information like this is extremely useful to foreign students (and foreign students of Japanese) interested in going to school in Japan, and real, unabridged information is super hard to find online because most Japanese schools don't feel the need to translate it all. I certainly would have liked more information (at least, as much information as there was in Japanese) about university admissions and university courses when I was looking.
The length of the article is no problem as it is now; it could easily be twice as long without becoming difficult to read. I definitely agree with you that there's room for additional articles on the problems (and the phenomenon) related to the Shiken.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  07:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Freshgavin, thanks for your comments. I didn't realise that the info could be useful for students looking to study in Japan; although I wouldn't recommend anyone base their educational decisions on an encylopedia, I can see that this article could actually prove pretty useful for a general look on things in Japan. That said, I'm pretty dismayed that Education in Japan is not up to the high standard it should be - can anyone clarify what parts of the article are out of date? I think this should be a Featured Article - after all, Education in Japan is a pretty hot topic, especially when compared to other Asian countries and the U.S. and Europe. (there was an article in TIME recently). - Tangotango 15:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move: Nanpa to Nampa

Hi everyone, I requested that Nanpa be moved to Nampa, mainly because I believe the latter is more common & better reflects the pronunciation, and also in part because someone raised an ambiguity issue with the North American Numbering Plan Administration. Please comment, if you like, at Talk:Nanpa. Dforest 11:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The Manual of Style mandates the "n." I argued (vehemently!) against it, but lost. So while I sympathize with the cause, I'm afraid that the community consensus is with the "n." Regarding ambiguity, there is, also, North American Nature Photographers' (correction: Photography) Association, which might some day merit an article. That's what "disambiguation" pages are for. It's not a problem, and not a sufficient reason (in my opinion) to override the MoS. I'll copy this comment to Talk:Nanpa for the convenience of people who want to debate there. Fg2 11:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion

List of movies, manga, anime, and television shows that take place in Tokyo

Fg2 02:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The red link indicates that it has been deleted. Fg2 21:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Trains in Japan

I have proposed the creation of WikiProject Trains in Japan, a project to standardize and organize articles about Japanese railways. The temporary project page can be seen here. If you are interested, please sign your name here. Thank you! - Tangotango 07:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a notice to announce the creation of WikiProject Trains in Japan, a descendant project of WikiProject Japan. If you would like to become a member, please add yourself to the Participants list on the page. Thanks! - Tangotango 09:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


Something called Orphanbot run by User:Carnildo is removing all unlicensed images from wikipedia. Under threat are various Japanese cities' ward maps eg. Kitakyushu.

Apparently these images are from the Japanese wikipedia. Fukuoka city's ward map has already gone and I guess a lot of others may be affected. Can anyone please give precise licenses for these useful images before they all disappear?


--Historian 10:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I've written to the original uploader of the maps on the Japanese Wikipedia, asking the source and license. (利用者‐会話:Zell) However, he/she doesn't appear to be terribly active (their last edit was in October 2005) so I don't know whether we'll get a reply in time. - Tangotango 10:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your effort. The Kitakyushu one has gone and probably a lot of others. A real shame! --Historian 07:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to post the same warning after I saw it remove an image from Otaru, Hokkaido. While I understand the importance of including source information, I don't like this bot's "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. Let's make sure images on Japan-related pages have source information so they aren't removed. CES 12:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. --Historian 07:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

This image on the Japanese Wikipedia clearly says it shouldn't be uploaded to WPCommons, so it should probably be removed from there and uploaded here instead. Here's the link:画像:Kitakyushu_city.png. --日本穣 08:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but if by 'here' you mean the English wikipedia then I'm afraid Orphanbot will remove it. --Historian 07:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


We're having problems at the Shooto page with an anonymous IP user (talk · contribs) constantly reverting a passage to (what I think is) an incorrect version. It's about the origin of the word 修斗 ("Shooto"), which is (according to the Japanese Wikipedia) an ateji of シュート (shūto). He keeps on insisting that "斗" (to) means "unit of volume" (okay, it does) and that the word 修斗 consequently doesn't mean anything at all. In his own words:

The word Shooto an English transliteration of the Japanese words SHU TO, is actually no-sensical as it translates as "to study or master a unit of volume!" "SHU" (修) means to study or to master, and "TO" (斗) is a unit of volume. "TO" is NOT an accepted ateji and has no other reading, especially one related to fighting.


The word Shooto an English transliteration of the Japanese words SHU TO, is actually no-sensical as it translates as "to study or master a unit of volume!" "SHU" (修) means to study or to master, and "TO" (斗) is a unit of volume. It is argued on many websites that Shuto means to study combat, but combat would be sen, or tataka(u) (戦). No connection between 斗 and 戦 can be made, and Shuto cannot mean anything other than to study a unit of volume.

I don't think he understands the concept of an ateji, and I've explained to him what that is on his talk page User talk: (also see comments made by User:-Marcus- and me at the talk page) but all my messages have gone unanswered (and presumably ignored). I'm afraid to revert the page further lest I violate WP:3RR, and I'm not willing to treat this as simple vandalism, but I'm sure my version is correct. Can somebody fluent in Japanese please convince this fellow that he is, in fact, wrong? Thank you. - Tangotango 09:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to help from CES, the problem is now (hopefully) resolved. - Tangotango 03:10, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Minamoto clan family tree

I don't know how I missed it, but some time ago, someone added a list of notable members of the Minamoto clan to the clan's page. The names were not formatted properly ("Yoshitomo Minamoto" instead of "Minamoto no Yoshitomo" - has anyone ever seen it written like that?), and the list was very short, including some and excluding others, both notable and not.

Anyway, my intention is not to bitch this anonymous IP user out. I will take a little time right now to see if I can sort out which members of the clan are notable enough to be included on the list, and which might be removed.

Is it useful to have a sampling of notable members? Or a comprehensive list of all Minamoto? Or should we simply provide links to the Seiwa Genji and other branch family articles? Thanks for your ideas and suggestions. LordAmeth 17:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I recall that someone, probably Sansom, had family tree in an English-language history. Seems like a useful visual to include. Historical dictionaries and similar works often include them in appendixes. A comprehensive one would be too big; to make it reasonable, either separate by lineages, or truncate when lines cease to be important. In addition, an article with a sampling of important members would be a very useful addition to an encyclopedia. Fg2 21:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Japan

For anyone who isn't already aware of it, we now have a WikiProject Japan. This is the place to list projects, requests, etc., for any Japan-related articles. It's also the place to look if you are looking for something to do. We welcome all interested editors to come and join the project. (^_^) --日本穣 Nihonjoe 17:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


There are some differences of opinion going on at Gaijin ... if you are free, come on over and see if we can prevent an edit war. CES 23:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Image Request

On the Kano school page, the image of Kano Tanyu's beautiful Nijo Castle screens has been deleted, presumably by copyright sticklers. Can we get new images of this? Thanks. LordAmeth 10:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


Could someone enlarge the Pa-Pa-Pa-Pa-Puffy article? It is currently going throu the articles for the deleation procedure on Polish Wikipedia [2]. If the (polish) article will be enlarged, it is very likly that it is going to be kept. Mieciu K 11:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

zen garden

The article zen garden needs some clean-up and could benefit from some input from those interested in things Japanese. // Habj 00:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Trip to Japan

What would be the most likely, and surprising, aspect of living in Japan for the first time? I don't know what to expect and being American, I am a little nervous.

This sounds like a question for the Miscellaneous Reference desk under the grounds that it's a question about the effects of culture shock. I've copied it over here so check that page out for any responses.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  00:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at Customs and etiquette of Japan. Fg2 07:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Move of Okino Torishima to Okinotori

Recently there was a poll by only two people and the artile title was moved from Okino Torishima to Okinotori. Should be reverted, but I don't know the procedure well. Isorhiza 18:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This deserves a little explanation. First of all it appears that there were at least 4 people participating in the poll. Second of all the classification of 沖ノ鳥島 as islands (as opposed to a crop of coral) is in dispute, and that's basically why the article was moved in the first place. "Should be reverted" is POV, and this issue is definitely worthy of a much larger opinion poll.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  00:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

A Japan-related barnstar

is being discussed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan. Exploding Boy 16:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Japanese clock

I have recently expanded Japanese clock from an uninformative stub. Some checking and technical assistance would be appreciated. Technical vocabulary for the old Japanese temporal hours would be nice, as would appropriate Japanese language terminology about traditional pre-Westernization clocks and timekeeping, from someone who (unlike myself) has the ability to type in Japanese. Checking to see if the article has a counterpart on ja: would be good also, and if anyone has access to appropriate pictures, they too would help a lot. Thanks. -- Smerdis of Tlön 17:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)