Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Archive 11

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Related guideline discussion

I know alot of the parties in this discussion will see this on the naming convention page (among others) but I want to reach a broad of an audience as I can for consensu. It seems that the heart of this discussion is related to an application of the Common Names guideline that conflicts with other guidelines, I think clarification should be made to that guideline to alleviate some of this conflict. All views are welcomed in the discussion on the guideline's talk page. Agne 19:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Common Usage question

Alright, I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, as I've gotten multiple different answers from multiple different people...

Now, this is talking about a fictional character (Jyabura from One Piece). The character has yet to show up in any official English version. The author has never given the character an official spelling. As the character's name is written as "ジャブラ", the romanization (according to Hepburn) should technically be "Jabura". However, the common fan-spelling (the common usage, if I'm correct) is "Jyabura". According to the common usage rule, we should be using the spelling "Jyabura", correct? I'm just trying to clear this up, as I've been told by one person to go by common usage and by someone else to go by Hepburn... So please help! Am I correct in still using the Jyabura spelling? 22:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That was me, sorry, for some reason Wikipedia logs me out randomly every now and then for an edit or two... Murasaki Seiko 02:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I haven't watched One Piece (despite the fact that my friends love it.. go fig), so I'm not sure how commonly or widely the spelling "Jyabura" is used. If it is in fact the most common spelling, and you think the majority of One Piece fans would see "Jabura" as being mispelled, go ahead and use the Y. But, seeing as how this is just a romanization/translation issue, and not an entirely different name (e.g. Serena vs Usagi, in Sailor Moon), I think it should be fine to go with the Hepburn. Personally, I think the "y" is ugly, and evidence of incorrect romanization. But, again, if the majority of One Piece viewers & fans would prefer it with the "y", would recognize it better, would consider it more correct, go with that. LordAmeth 13:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't care for the y either... except that it's used in all fansubs and scanlations, so I'm used to it. >_< So, I suppose that's the right one to use, so thank you for clarifying. ^_^ Murasaki Seiko 01:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't sub/scanlation names cause big messes? I do it this way: At head of article: '''''Note:''' Some names have not yet gotten straightforward English-language equivalents. Until the official English-language version of the anime is released, the most popular English translation of the name should be used with other name variants listed somewhere in the article.'' {{nihongo|Jyabura|ジャブラ|Also: Zyabura, Jabura}} is a character in the.... Jyabura ate buriburipuripuri donut in episode 42.... I used the kunreishiki just for an example as I've had more than one romanization on some names. If you have problem, do a strawpoll. --Kunzite 02:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Right now we've got it as a note down with some other trivia, but maybe I'll move it up to the name part instead or something. Thanks for your help! ^_^ ((And on the sub/scanlation names causing big messes note: Now I, as a subber, have to decide what to do for his name in our subs... XD Too bad there aren't any easy rules to follow for that like there are here...)) Murasaki Seiko 07:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I suggest converting to Wikipedia romanization ("ja" rather than "jya"). Variants, even if more common, can be noted in text. Fg2 02:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I think "jya" is unnecessary. "Jya" seems kind of silly. Jecowa 21:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

School district article help

Just like with the USA, I'm creating and improving articles about Japanese school districts and prefectural education agencies. The problem is that I do not know Japanese. I can figure out some school names, but my work may need some double-checking.

For instance, see:

WhisperToMe 23:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

See Tokyo Fg2 02:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
See the bottom (copyright) line of Hokkaido Fg2 02:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
This one's got English too. Kanagawa Fg2 02:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you :) for the links WhisperToMe 21:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's another prefectural article I created: Okinawa Prefectural Board of Education - I haven't finished listing all of the district's schools.

There are some municipal districts listed too:

WhisperToMe 05:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Imperial Family Members

Currently, Imperial Family Members are at articles with names like Prince Hisahito of Akishino or Aiko, Princess Toshi. However, in the Japanese wikipedia, they're named simply "Prince Hisahito" (Hisahito shinnō) and "Princess Aiko" (Aiko Naishinnō). The only ones with the titles are Fumihito, Prince Akishino (Akishino no miya Fumihito Shinnō; His elder brother is at "Crown Prince Naruhito"), Prince Hitachi (Hitachi no miya Masahito Shinnō), Takahito, Prince Mikasa (Mikasa no miya Takahito Shinnō), Prince Katsura (Katsura no miya Yoshihito Shinnō) and the late Norihito, Prince Takamado (Takamado no miya Norihito Shinnō). Princess Akishino is at Fumihito Shinnō-hi Kiko, which I guess could be translated "Kiko, Princess Fumihito"

It seems to me that we should follow the same pattern, since, from what I can tell of the Japanese-language articles, it seems that, e.g., "Akishino-no-miya" is not part of the titles of his three children or wife, and the title Toshi no miya is not counted as part of Princess Aiko's name for purposes of article naming. So, I'd propose that we move the articles to

Nik42 02:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Kanji with katakana ruby/furigana

It was originally discussed in Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Japan-related_articles)/misc9#My_problem_in_Kanji.2FRomanization_Agreement, but I think I need to revive the discussion.

Not only every Detective Conan movie has that issue (the kanji explicitly rubied with katakana), and from the discussion, rubying kanji with katakana is widespread in Japan.

My issue is:

  • If the Japanese term is explicitly rubied with katakana, should this katakana be listed with the kanji in brackets as like (名探偵コナン ベイカー街(ストリート)の亡霊 Meitantei Konan Beikā Sutorīto no Bōrei)? (Bolded for emphesis only.)
  • Should it be proposed as a rule in the WP:MOS-JA?

--Samuel Curtis 08:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are asking. If you're talking about using ruby here on Wikipedia, no, it should not be used. If you're talking about something else, please clarify your question. Thanks. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The last time the question was asked, it was how translations implied by furigana (but not by the kanji or the original reading) should be written into English. It's not really relevant in English though, because there is obviously no way to communicate two similar meanings with the same word. The only solution is an explanation, if it is deemed important enough and is required.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
To clarify, I support the way Samuel Curtis has proposed writing the phrase in question. Though I don't feel strongly about it I don't really think there's a need to add this to the MOS, as there are very few examples outside of the marketing world, and usually a simple explanation will suffice.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with including the parenthetical furigana. I'm just opposed to using ruby. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. The explanation in parentheses does just fine. No need for ruby. Fg2 08:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
What kind of explanation do you mean, Freshgavin? --Samuel Curtis 09:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
For example, if the Japanese "catch line" for a movie is "愛(情熱)のために", with jounetsu furigana'd, a translation like "for love (though passion is implied with furigana)" would suffice, because there's no other elegant way of doing it. It would suck if title of the movie itself suffered from furiganarism, but I doubt they would sink to that level, because it would confuse a lot of people in Japan, too.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  11:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)