Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tropical cyclones/Archive 18

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Archive 17 Archive 18 Archive 19

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Accumulated Cyclone Energy

There's pretty much a consensus not to have them for each individual storm, but they are still there. Should we get rid of the individual tables, and instead add a season total ACE for the season infobox? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

yeah lets get rid of the tables - Theres already a bit for the total ace on the main Hurricane infobox Jason Rees (talk) 13:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a strong opinion either way. ACE is generally useless, but if we were to remove the tables from the season articles, one could argue that doing such would compromise the comprehensiveness of a page. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I like the season table. What is the argument against it? Plasticup T/C 15:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
The only independent source (i.e. one that doesn't specifically study ACE) that places importance on ACE is wikipedia. Objectively speaking, it's not a notable statistic, and I don't understand why we have a table of that when we don't include tables of storm duration, strength, IKE, or whatever else. It certainly doesn't deserve its own section in the season articles, and removing it completely would not weaken them at all. — jdorje (talk) 21:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
My strongest objection to those tables is that they're basically original synthesis, as they're usually not referenced, nor kept up to date with official records. Most NCDC season reports have ACE stats that differ from ours, and I'd feel more comfortable either citing their numbers, or not adding those numbers at all. (Although I realize that they're good content to fill old season articles, which lack information lost to time...) Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 06:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
What if we were to add a little ACE box to the hurricane templates and get rid of the ACE sections??? User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Contributions 22:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

ACE

Since ACE information is popping up in quite a few storm articles nowadays, it's probably time to decide whether or not we want it. I'm in favor of it, as it's only a couple sentences, and more information never hurts. Thoughts? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I am also in favour of using it in Storm Articles but if we do we MUST use it like this:

"The Joint Typhoon Warning Center's messured the Ace at A, whilst the RSMC Tokyo measured the Ace at B."

Jason Rees (talk) 14:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The only problem is getting a reliable source to back it up. I personally am split between keeping it and removing it. If there is a reliable source that backs up the Best track info, then we should keep it, otherwise it's OR and therefore has to be removed....Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I oppose using it. We've discussed before that the stat means very little for each storm. Scientists and officials rarely mention the ACE of certain storms, and more often only use it for the entire season. In previous discussions, it was described as original synthesis. I noticed this problem on Hurricane Hernan's current FAC, where the author cited the TCR for Hernan's ACE value. I completely disagree with doing that, particularly since the next sentence cited the NCDC page with a different value (which was its operational ACE). In short, I believe we should remove every mention of ACE for individual storms, and leave it only for the season totals, when available. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

ACE is not OR, though, it is a simple calculation. It does not require a class in Statistics to figure it out. Potapych (talk) 15:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

But there is no non-wiki source to really back it up despite being simple calculations. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Even if it weren't OR, it still doesn't add much to storm articles in general. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
True, it is mainly just to make small articles a bit longer. I just followed the outline for Tropical Storm Erick (2007) to create Tropical Storm Karina (2008) (both extremely short lived storms) to add length to the article. But now it may be becoming a problem due to a lack of sources.
There are, however, reliable sources to cite the ACE, the NCDC seasonal chart as an example. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
That's the operational data though. The problem is citing the best track ACE data since there are changes between the two. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Whether it's OR or not in its simplest form is debatable, but I agree that it's original synthesis. The sources never say plainly that storm A had an ACE of X. And furthermore, they are a fairly useless statistic that (IIRC) no scientist ever uses for each individual storm. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
What about the storms that had notable ACE ratings, like Ivan? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
It definitely is one source, though how to cite it is debatable. Original synthesis occurs with multiple sources. Potapych (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I think it adds to the season articles. Eastern Pacific season ACE values can swing wildly while maintaining a pretty consistent number of named storms from year to year. Citing ACE highlights the true level of activity and the importance of El Nino in that basin. This is still important in the Atlantic, though slightly less so. Potapych (talk) 23:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Good point, there probably should be an exception for storms with record high ACE's. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a given, but for that we are only talking about 2-3 storms. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Right, so unless the storm has a record high ACE, the ACE will remain a season statistics section only thing? Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for that, and for clarification that means only having the seasonal ACE value, which we have for the Atlantic from 1851-2007 already (HURDAT has it). ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Time to clear out some ACE values in some articles. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Shall we wait for more people to voice their opinions? Only a few people have commented, and for such a big decision maybe we should wait another day or so. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Wait, hit a wall with Tropical Storm Karina (2008). There is a fair amount of info on it in the statistics section, and I'm not sure what to do with it. (got to stop the impulse), yea, probably best to wait for more input. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
It's not hitting a wall if there is legitimately no more information outside of the storm history. If ACE is just used as a space filler, then it's not needed. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

HURDAT link for seasonal data - this link has the seasonal ACE values, which will be the source for the seasonal totals. Also, if the NHC happens to mention monthly ACE totals (as it did in the Karina article), then that's fair game. For that article, only the first two sentences of that paragraph would have to be removed, if we agreed to it. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Can we get more feedback on this? I see a user just added ACE to a NIO season article, which certainly doesn't even use ACE. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see it removed from all of the current season articles esspecially the WPAC 08 as it is a pain to update Jason Rees (talk) 02:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Do you agree to removing it from the individual storm articles? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
It depends from storm to storm. At the edges of the spectrum (i.e. very low [almost none] or very high [>40]) a note about it should be made. Otherwise it shouldn't be included since it is the "norm", exceptions do appear as usual, Katrina could be a good example of an exception since it is one of the most important article and that bit of info could be helpful with statistical information on the storm. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Why should the bottom of the barrel get the numbers? If a storm lasted six to twelve hours, I think we should just say "The storm was the weakest/shortest lasting storm of the season." I don't see a need to explain the confusing ACE system. Likewise with the high ones, chances are they either set some records, or were the strongest/longest lasting storm of the season. There's enough information in the Katrina article already; I don't think we should confuse the reader by introducing another term in an already full article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I think that we need to get rid off it completly as it is hard to verify and update. Jason Rees (talk) 04:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Currently there is a bit of an IRC discussion (gasp) between some of the project members. There is a rough agreement that ACE should not be used outside of the NHC basins, primarily due to inconsistencies with the warning centers. That's it, though. Also discussed was whether or not to remove from the individual pages, but there wasn't an agreement. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone else want to respond? The usage of ACE currently is close to being decided. Would anyone be opposed to removing all mentions (except perhaps extreme ones) of ACE for individual storms in the sub-articles, and if so, why? Likewise, would anyone be opposed to removing the individual values from the season articles, and if so, why? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Discrepancies between NOAA's list and HURDAT

The palpable discrepancies between the official designations for United States hurricanes and HURDAT are adversely affecting articles' accuracy. For example, I furnished an article on the 1949 Florida hurricane. Officially, the list of United States hurricanes lists a Category 3 impact in the state of Florida, but the HURDAT file cites a maximum sustained wind of 150 mph (130 knots) at landfall. I produced a verifiable article with numerous sources, several of which supported the Category 3 classification. Subsequently, an anonymous contributor altered the 1949 Atlantic hurricane season article and reverted the Category 3 values for the maximum sustained winds. The person utilized HURDAT's winds and listed Category 4 winds for the Florida hurricane, as well as a Texas tropical cyclone that exhibited similar list/HURDAT discrepancies. The Texas hurricane is assessed as a Category 4 landfall (115 knots) in HURDAT, but the official list does not indicate winds higher than Category 2 strength in Texas. This conundrum leads to the question of accuracy: which source is more "authentic"? Wikipedia should yield reliable, viable, and truthful information.

The HURDAT database precedes the official list, which implies that the list is updated. Originally, HURDAT was conceived in the 1960s, while the first list of United States impacts was published in the 1970s. HURDAT contains numerous errors, since it has not been reanalyzed beyond 1920. A new paper from the reanalysis project discusses these issues. The official list states that the United States impacts are grouped by "the highest Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale impact in the United States based upon estimated maximum sustained surface winds produced at the coast." Therefore, a person gains the impression that the impacts are based on the modern Saffir-Simpson Scale standards, which utilize one-minute sustained winds (as opposed to central pressures) as the sole qualification of hurricane strength. However, the reanalysis paper notes the following facts:

"Another methodological concern is that the winds in HURDAT just before a hurricane landfall in the United States often do not match the assigned Saffir–Simpson hurricane scale. C. J. Neumann and J. Hope developed the first digital HURDAT records with 6-hourly position and maximum wind estimates in the late 1960s (Jarvinen et al. 1984), before the Saffir–Simpson scale was devised (Saffir 1973; Simpson 1974). The U.S. Saffir–Simpson scale categorizations for the twentieth century were first assigned by Hebert and Taylor (1975), based primarily upon central pressure observations or estimates at landfall. It was not until the late 1980s that the use of the Saffir Simpson scale categorization was based upon the winds exclusively, which is the current standard at NHC (OFCM 2005). Thus, reanalysis efforts in Landsea et al. (2004a,b) and in the work presented here have utilized the estimated maximum sustained winds for assignment of Saffir–Simpson category to be consistent with today’s analysis techniques."

This portion explicitly implies that the official list of United States hurricanes (which has been unaltered since its conception in the 1970s) is actually based on minimum central pressures. Note that the vast majority of the hurricanes (and their respective Saffir-Simpson designations) in the official list are largely confined to the original Saffir-Simpson Scale standards for central pressures per category. Note that the last section on Landsea et al (2004a,b) refers to the reanalysis project:

"and Coauthors, 2004a: The Atlantic hurricane database reanalysis project: Documentation for the 1851–1910 alterations and additions to the HURDAT database.

Hurricanes and Typhoons: Past, Present, and Future, R. J. Murnane and K.-B. Liu, Eds., Columbia University Press, 177–221.

——, and Coauthors, 2004b: A reanalysis of Hurricane Andrew’s intensity. Bull. Amer. Meteor. Soc., 85, 1699–1712."

In other words, the official list of United States hurricanes actually lists Saffir-Simpson impacts by central pressure. The only sections that list United States impacts by winds are 1851-1920, which have been reanalyzed. All hurricanes' United States designations from 1920 to 1979 rely on central pressures in the list. That portion has not been updated to reflect modern Saffir-Simpson Scale standards. On the other hand, HURDAT cites maximum sustained winds.

What is the moral of this long diatribe? The long battle between "the list" and HURDAT in Atlantic tropical cyclone articles has been finally resolved. I was wrong: HURDAT (as opposed to the list) is the authentic source for maximum sustained winds at landfall for all tropical cyclones from 1921 to 1979 (pending reanalysis). Therefore, the 1949 Florida and Texas hurricanes should be listed as Category 4 hurricanes at landfall. CVW (Talk) 04:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I recently uncovered the original compilation (list) of United States landfalls. This document lists all United States hurricanes in the 20th century. The introduction to the document states that the Saffir-Simpson Scale categories at landfall were determined solely by central pressure. Note that the pressure values and landfall categories are identical to all hurricanes from 1921-1979 (not reanalyzed) in this list. In other words, HURDAT should be utilized in lieu of the list. On the other hand, the format description for the official landfall designations (trailers) states that they are "based upon the Saffir-Simpson Scale category (through the estimate of the maximum sustained surface winds for each state)." However, the trailer data is derived from the Saffir-Simpson Scale categories in the official list, and the list's data was based on central pressures at landfall. How can we solve this issue? No one has addressed it, and our articles are suffering from these HURDAT/list discrepancies. CVW (Talk) 02:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Prominent units within TC articles: Imperial or SI?

After hink's recent response in the section above, and my search of my own talk archives and the first 12 of the project archives (time consuming,) it appears this problem hasn't been discussed yet. It has made sense the main units used in season and storm articles for the Western Hemisphere should have mph prominent over SI units, since the warning centers are based within the US, where imperial units are still commonly used. However, this is not true in the Eastern Hemisphere. I've been placing knots as the major unit for tropical cyclones in the Pacific typhoon season articles (since it is the most common nautical term), with convert templates shifting the values to km/h. Is this reasonable? I could see a real POV issue if we used mph in the Eastern Hemisphere, since the world outside the US has essentially embraced SI over imperial units. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where we decided it, but we have decided, somewhere or another, to use only mph and km/h (with mph used primarily for NHC and CPHC and the others getting km/h). Notice that the Infobox uses just the two units (knots don't show up). I believe the argument was that the public in general doesn't really know what a knot is - do any countries even use knots? For the Eastern Hemisphere, keep in mind that although it may seem biased, there is a huge percentage of people on WP that solely use mph; not having that unit would not be accessible. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
That may be true of the American public, but what about the Caribbean countries which are British, French, and Dutch dependencies? Europe went SI back when we were supposed to, several decades ago. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The rest of the world uses km/h, quite obviously, which is what the articles are supposed to use outside of NHC/CPHC (or so I thought). We just use mph for NHC basins since that's what they use. I'll repeat what I said: given the large percentage of US users (who use mph), it would be inaccessible not to include mph. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Also there is a problem with the mph in many articles, mainly when the Template:Convert is used. The wind speeds publsihed by the NHC are commonly rounded by 5 knots. Therefor converted into mph the result should be rounded by five. When one is using now mph as a base for converting into km/h the output can be wrong. Following are some values and there verification of that wrong way of convertig wind speeds (I just hope I haven't make mistakes).

  • 30 kn -> 35 mph -> 55 km/h – okay
  • 60 kn -> 70 mph -> 110 km/h – okay
  • 90 kn -> 105 mph -> 170 km/h – wrong, should be 165 km/h
  • 120 kn -> 140 mph -> 225 km/h – wrong, should be 220 km/h
  • 150 kn -> 175 mph -> 280 km/h – okay
  • 75 kn -> 85 km/h -> 135 km/h – wrong, should be 140 km/h
  • 50 kn -> 60 mph -> 115 km/h – wrong, should be 110 km/h

So we must ever convert from the source data into the unit we need, i.e. knots directly into km/h and not via mph into km/h. Cocerning the use of mph in genereal I think to remember a discussion on one of the MOS pages some time ago. --Matthiasb (talk) 18:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

To be honest within the Eastern & Southern Western Hempishere i would rather use Knots and km/h as thats whats the "OFFICAL" agencys use. also whilst im not sure about this but isnt it minor Original Research when we use MPH in the Eastern Hempishere as it can not be sourced back to a Primary source.Jason Rees (talk) 18:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I can't seem to remember where, but there are several articles that are of the format χ kt (γ mph; ζ km/h), which we could use in the eastern basins. You also mentioned one of the evils of {{convert}}, and why it should never be used. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 19:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that many people who review GA articles (myself included due to how often it has happened with me) insist upon the use of convert templates. Besides, with the convert template you don't need to worry about all those nbsps. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Point them to this discussion. {{Convert}} is useful only for exact measurements (e.g. maximum recorded gusts, rainfall amounts) but it introduces rounding error when used with values that are already rounded (e.g. maximum sustained winds, estimated maximum gusts). Additionally, the benefit of not having to type   is nullified by having to figure out which syntax to use for the desired measurement, so I'd say to just avoid it completely and use the non-breaking spaces. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 19:39, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Thats the way i prefer to do them and i have been doing it that way untill Hink moaned at me for using knots earlier this week Jason Rees (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for moaning, but I really thought we had this agreed upon not to use knots. I believe the only articles we use all three are some of the season articles. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Meh dont worry about it your forgiven - From memory Daman, Elisa, Fengshen and some of the other Wpac storms from this year have all 3 units Jason Rees (talk) 19:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Any more comments? This is somewhat important. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The point of this discussion wasn't whether to use template:convert or not. It's whether to use knots or not, and the knot, while used by scientists, isn't usually used by the public (AFIK). I propose the main unit we use is mph and imperial for NHC and CPHC, with metric in parenthesis, and metric for all of the other basins, with imperial in parenthesis. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

That sounds about right (although I would clarify that km/h is the preferred metric unit, instead of m/s). That said, I remember that in a few FACs there were requests to use m/s in the main science articles, so in those, it would be better to use all four units. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Although the problem occurs when we only have data in knots; in that case, shouldn't we put the knots outside the parentheses (as the original source unit), and put the other two in metric/imperial order inside the parentheses? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we have to. I don't think it happens often when the source is only in knots; usually it is also provided in either km/h or mph. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:44, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the reason we started using knots in the PTS articles were because we did not have km/h in the advisories—but then, I don't edit those articles. Is that still the case? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
The western pacific databases (JMA and JTWC) use knots, just like the northeast Pacific and Atlantic databases. So far in the Pacific season articles I've sent through GA, no one has complained about a lack of mph units. Thegreatdr (talk) 05:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, that goes back to my problem of knots not being very accessible. We talked about this on IRC a little. Personally I think we should keep knots in the scientific articles (with metric then imperial in parenthesis), and then for storm/season articles (depending on the basin) have metric and imperial only. Imagine of the NHC season articles only had knots and imperial units. There would surely be an outcry of bias and whatnot. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:53, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

(\n) So, to summarize:

  • χ kn (γ km/h, ζ mph) for the general science articles,
  • χ mph (γ km/h) for storm/season articles SSHS-based basins, and
  • χ km/h (γ mph) for storm/season articles everywhere else? (We do need to have imperial units in all articles per WP:UNITS, although they don't have to be the primary units. Although we still need to discuss whether we want to use knots as secondary units in storm/season articles.) Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Support. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:07, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - As its orignal research just to use conversions in the SPAC when the RSMC Nadi generally just uses knots for Cyclones Jason Rees (talk) 00:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
It's hardly original research. The country of Fiji uses the metric system. We use metric and imperial for ease of use for the public. I believe all of the warning centers use knots to some degree, but none of us work for the warning centers. We are writing an encyclopedia which is supposed to be accessible to the public. AFIK, neither the knot nor the nautical mile is officially used by any government. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
While I wouldn't make the same conclusion about knot use in government, I agree: it is hardly original research, as unit conversions are trivial modifications that do not try to introduce or synthesize new theories or ideas to the encyclopedia. It is on par to translating from a foreign language, which is explicitly mentioned in Wikipedia:These are not original research. WP:UNITS only requires explicit source units in direct quotations. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 08:49, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Further discussion - basin vs. worldwide

Need The article's priority or importance, regardless of its quality
Top Subject is a must-have for a print encyclopedia
High Subject contributes a depth of knowledge
Mid Subject fills in more minor details
Low Subject is mainly of specialist interest.

In light of the recent discussion on Talk:Hurricane Ioke and elsewhere, it would help getting some clarification on this. Some users believe the importance should be based on the basin only, but a voice of opposition suggested it be project wide. I am stuck in between, but after looking at WP:1.0 (and the table on the right provided by 1.0), I am leaning toward project wide. User:Potapych brought up a good point that the importance influences the articles chosen for the printed version of Wikipedia. For storms, that would mean an extremely obvious tilt toward low importance, perhaps as answered by the question "How much would the project suffer without that article?" For seasons, I think make only a certain number of recent seasons as automatically mid-importance, maybe making the cutoff like 1980. Comments are appreciated so we can put the issue to rest. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:23, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. If possible, I would also rate a season article a bit lower if all of the important storms already have articles. For example, I moved 1881 Atlantic hurricane season up to Mid, despite being a new article, because of a deadly hurricane that hit Georgia. This could work the opposite way for storm articles that have several subarticles. Anyway, the 1881 season is borderline, Mid, I think. I would ask User:Thegreatdr about the cutoff because some of those 1980's articles can be difficult to research. Lack of information is going to hurt an article's encyclopedic value. I assumed that's why Hurricane David is only Mid. Potapych (talk) 18:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
/me puts WP:1.0 hat on
remember that the project's overall importance to the encyclopedia is already counted in the SelectionBot algorithm. So a FA-Class, Top-Importance article from WP:WPTC is not scored as high as a FA/Top article from WP:CORE. As a result, we don't have to worry too much about importance to Wikipedia as a whole, but rather, we need to worry about importance to WPTC as a whole.
/me puts WP:WPTC hat on
I personally consider that our grades are overall too low from everybody else's, but I'm not sure that determining importance per basin, as indicated on Talk:Hurricane Ioke, is the way to go. Importance by rarity is a different thing, though. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:02, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I actually think that the basin importance reflects on the worldwide importance. Take Typhoon Dot (1985) of the WPac for example. It killed 101 people, all directly, and was a Category 5 typhoon, but it's Low-importance. Now let's shift over to Tropical Storm Beryl (1982) of the Atlantic. Beryl was a tropical storm with maximum sustained winds of less than half the power of Dot's, and killed only slightly more people (115 direct) but Beryl clocks higher than Dot at Mid-importance. --Dylan620 (Homeyadda yadda yaddaOoooohh!) 13:58, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Is that really a worldwide factor, or is it just country to country? Dot struck the Philippines, which gets hit by TC's all of the time. Gamma in 2005 caused 37 deaths, and though it wasn't quite 101, it's still a good amount; Gamma is still low, since Central America regularly has fairly high death tolls from TC's. Basins are just arbitrary dividing lines. Would Ioke be any more/less important if it formed in the WPAC, but still caused the same impact? I'd imagine it would still be Mid, since the strength and impact would warrant exactly that rating. Granted, it's obvious we are too Atlantic-biased, so maybe that's part of the problem. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea which of those typhoons were considered major events in those regions. We are all admittedly biased, since most of us do not have access to other media outlets from that time. For anything to make it to High or Top level, there should be substantial external interest in the subject. This is supposed to be taken into consideration when grading articles, and higher grades should have more stringent requirements. It doesn't have to be as catastrophic as Katrina since Cyclone Catarina is up there. Everything can't be rated High or Top or even Mid because the ratings here won't be taken seriously (by SelectionBot or others). Potapych (talk) 18:42, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
At least for the Philippines, we have the Typhoons in the Philippines article to consult, if you're curious about the relative impact of a tropical cyclone on that island chain. Creating similar articles for other countries could help resolve relative importance of tropical cyclones on a country-by-country basis. Once the season articles and storm articles are all up the speed (if ever), it would be a worthy endeavor for this project. Thegreatdr (talk) 04:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Tropical Depression Numbering for 1969

There has been some minor discussions about this between Thegreatdr, Juliancolton, Hurricanehink and myself about this but not absolute solution has been found. This problem with the numbering of the TD's in 1969 (and possibly other seasons) is due to a document posted here by Thegreatdr which contains all the tracking data on past tropical depressions. However, after looking at 1969 in hopes of creating a timeline article for it, I discovered that the numbering of the TD's was very confusing.

AL0169 SIX       052900 1969 12.0  82.0  25    0 -99 -99  -99 -99   0  0  0  0   0  0  0  0   0  0  0  0 ?

This is the first line for 1969, it shows the basin (AL), storm number (01), year ('69), the storm name (Six) the date and time (May 29, at 00 UTC in 1969), the lat. and lon. (12.0N 82.0W), maximum sustained 1-min winds in knots (25kts), and some other stuff which I don't understand yet. But how can TD Six be the first storm of the year? and for that matter, how can TD Five be the second (see below)? Hopefully we can figure this one out, all comments and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

AL0269 FIVE      052900 1969 26.1  77.8  25    0 -99 -99  -99 -99   0  0  0  0   0  0  0  0   0  0  0  0 ?

Cyclonebiskit (talk) 16:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm torn whether we should include every TD for a certain time period, since after all, they aren't in the official database. It seems that from the 60's to early 70's, TD's were being classified like our current invests. Some TD's were certainly real cyclones. Maybe for the season articles, say "A total of X tropical depressions formed during the year, of which Y affected land." And then give details on the land impacting ones. IDK, just a thought, though it'll probably be shot down. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:35, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
It's how we deal with PAGASA systems in the western Pacific, so it sounds alright to me. Include info on the ones which impact land, since they'll be documented in the TC rainfall climatology anyhow, and just mention dates for the others. If you can find more info in the newspaper database, include info on those systems as well. There will be better documentation from NHC within the next couple years as their storm wallets from years past trickle online, but the issue probably won't be resolved for a decade until the reanalysis extends into the 1970s. The database I placed online was for both NHC reference regarding the reanalysis, as well as for my uses. Although it is a reanalysis of sorts, it's not official, per se. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
  • By the way, NHC has a bit more of their scanned storm wallet information online now, covering 1968-1970, and 1977-1979. It is accessible in a much easier manner than initially seen several months ago. Thegreatdr (talk) 06:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Track Map Help

I have windows so when I tried to download the track map generator, I used Cygwin (something like that). When I typed in the instructions from User:jdorje/tracks, it couldn't find it, does anyone know what to do?--Irmela08 02:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Did you try the first two commands here? I couldn't get it to work on my mac, but I did get it to download. Potapych (talk) 04:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
By the way, the new version of the generator on the repository should now make the installation process easier, as I got it to compile on my own Macintosh. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 08:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I got it to work. I was wondering about something. Thegreatdr provided this data for various depressions on some of the talk pages example. Would it be a good idea to make track maps from this? Potapych (talk) 19:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
You can make track maps from that data by massaging the format to fit into HURDAT, but since Thegreatdr indicated that the data is "not reference-able" in the link you provided, I'd rather not. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think its not reference-able. It's the same as if you emailed an employee for information, which we do a lot of here. At the very least we could put his name as the source. I don't think he would mind since his name is referenced in dozens of articles already. Potapych (talk) 23:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Employees usually don't tell us to not cite stuff. There could be a lot of reasons why the data is not considered reference-quality, and I'd rather not speculate on the reasons... Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 01:04, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
He didn't say not to cite it, just that it was not reference-able. I think it was just a misunderstanding that we can't cite internal data. We can ask when he gets back. The data is already in hurdat format on some of those talk pages. Potapych (talk) 07:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Talking about Track maps can someone please bring 2008-09 SPAC up to date with the Track maps? Jason Rees (talk) 01:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I have a lot of stuff to do right now, including updating some of the 2007 tracks. You can make it easier if you put the data in HURDAT format and post it somewhere in your userspace. Just remember that any longitude number in the eastern hemisphere needs to be converted by subtracting it from 360. That probably needs to be done for any track in the southwest Pacific. Potapych (talk) 07:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

NHC told be personally not to trust the original HURDAT-formatted dataset they e-mailed me, since it was a digitized version of a dataset created by one person who retired 20 years before, and could have errors. However, the HURDAT versions I posted on the talk pages are the same tracks as those used in the annual tropical systems articles. Tropical depression definitions have changed over time, and the non-developing system database has not been reanalyzed, which is why I received such instruction. The version I have on the HPC website (in the extended best track dataset format) is a modified version of what was given to me by NHC which takes into account the Daily Weather Map series and has an increased amount of data and usefulness. If you want to reference that version, go right ahead. Just keep in mind I haven't fully reanalyzed the dataset, so it could change over time. Thegreatdr (talk) 14:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Costliest hurricanes

I was really surprised to find that Katrina wasn't the costliest hurricane ever, but rather some hurricane that hit Miami in 1926. 157 billion dollars! That seemed amazing to me, especially considering that the total GDP for the entire country was only $750 billion in 1926. Then I looked at the table closer and saw that it was adjusted for something called "wealth normalization". Since there was no explanation of what the heck that was anywhere in the table, I did a little digging and discovered that the $157 billion was not the actual (inflation-adjusted) damage done by the 1926 Miami hurricane, but what the damage would hypothetically be if an identical storm hit today. Does it strike anyone else as strange that we have a table called "Costliest U.S. Atlantic Hurricanes" that has no relation to the actual costs of any actual U.S. Atlantic hurricanes? Can we change this? Costs adjusted for wealth normalization is an interesting side note, but it shouldn't be the PRIMARY "costliest hurricane" statistic, should it? How about some real data here? 68.101.165.156 (talk) 07:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

That has bothered me for a while as well. I'm not sure who changed the previous inflation-based data to point to the Pielke normalized data, or even if there was a consensus for doing so. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:16, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

FAR

I have nominated 2004 Atlantic hurricane season for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juliancolton (talkcontribs)

More WP:WPTC/A

Along the lines of the previous discussion (scroll up), I have set up the final review pages for any articles added to the page before November. Please go comment at the page, so we can take a pruning knife and shorten it... Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 08:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Changes afoot on the List of wettest tropical cyclones by country page

I found a set of NCDC publications that covers Caribbean-wide daily highs/lows/precipitation that starts around 1925 and ends in 1966. Today I started making changes to the Excel files at work, the main Tropical Cyclone Rainfall Maxima page, and the List of wettest tropical cyclones by country page to add the new statistics. Recent work on the wikipedia page has focused upon Antigua and the Bahamas. FYI, because this information could be useful within the season or individual storm articles. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Sweet. Thanks for the heads-up. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Pacific Typhoon Seasons (PTS)

Whilst having a look through some of the PTS articles i noticed the following mistakes weve been making.

  1. JMA Minor Tropical Depressions - we should be monitoring these and writing about them.
  2. First storm of the year should be the first JMA depression not the first JMA storm.
  3. Other storms - why do we use it for the JMA depressions that we do monitor?

Jason Rees (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Unlike US centers, JMA is not very serious about TDs, be they major (35-knot-to-be, 30-knotter) or especially minor (no wind speed). They come and go much more casually than a US TD or an Australian "Tropical Low". After all, TD warnings of the latter two types are issued by merely JMA, not under the auspices of RSMC Tokyo, which has the responsibility to warn on 35+ knot storms and what will become 35 knots in 24 hours. In other words, there is no international/regional "officialness" in those "xxJPxx" bulletins--it is just another country's take on the weather. HkCaGu (talk) 23:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, JMA has been tasked as the RSMC since 1980 (years longer than I thought it was true. I just saw this reference in the Hong Kong (HKO) link during research for the 1984 Pacific typhoon season article.) That makes their information impossible to ignore, if we're going to be globally consistent with how we deal with these annual articles. The season dates should be consistent in using the formation and dissipation of the first and last TDs. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:58, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I simply don't think we can be "globally consistent". The fact remains that in the Japanese (and Taiwanese) mentality, TDs are not TCs (or in their languages, "typhoons"). Even down in Australia, TDs that had been TSs are called "ex-cyclones". If we were to include TDs, which of these three classes of TDs shall we include? HkCaGu (talk) 22:38, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
And let me repeat my point: Not every JMA product is an RSMC product. 30-knot, non-intensifying TDs are not even mentioned in the RSMC website! HkCaGu (talk) 22:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
That was true of NHC not much more than a decade ago. But still, we're adding the depressions if we can find corresponding news clippings or other info that shows they existed. Look at how we deal with PAGASA info, where we're lucky to be able to match their TC names to the main list. Thegreatdr (talk) 02:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

My question: are JMA depressions actually considered tropical cyclones? What if they are that basin's equivalence of a low pressure area? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I believe so as the JMA warn on low pressure areas in the same warnings Jason Rees (talk) 05:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Hink.... I think we could create a section about them still.... Maybe a sub-article just to cover them all... User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Contributions 22:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Making our project larger

Hello all, I was wondering... since our numbers are beginning to dwindle AND its beginning to get boring here. Could we take over a few extra areas - extend the projects reaches... so we could take over control of Extratropical Lows and related things. We also need to make those numbers go up again. While we are still a big WP project we need to make ourselves bigger. Is there any chance of us getting a few more adverts for the Wikiproject?

Thanks

User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Contributions - Its good to be back! 22:35, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Whoa there. While I think we all appreciate the ambition of your comment, we have hundreds of season articles to get out of stub class and dozens of vital articles (both storm specific and related to tropical cyclones) to improve to GA/FA. If you feel bored, tackle some of the storm-related meteorology, or general meteorology articles. The general meteorology project needs help, should you be willing to provide it. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
There's always a lot of work to do in the bottom of Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Tropical meteorology articles by quality (e.g. Outflow (meteorology)), as these articles are of relatively higher importance. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Extratropical lows are under the scope of WP:NTROP. –Juliancolton Happy Holidays 00:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Why do i feel like my heads been chewed and then thrown off....
Greatdr - of course.... and Titoxd I will have a go but I am useless at writing things about Outflow - etc,etc. User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Contributions 15:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Invest

I need help on this one. I think I have got it up to start class but am not sure what it needs to get to C class. Thanks User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Contributions 15:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Admins

Could an admin please move this page: User:Itfc+canes=me/pablo (including talkpage) to Tropical Storm Higos (2008) for me please. User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Contributions 21:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes check.svg DoneJuliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Julian... its starting to bug me how every page I try to create is like that. User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 22:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
There are usually admins around to do page moves like that; if not, just tag the target article that's holding up your move with {{db-g6}}. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Hurricane Severity Index

The article Hurricane Severity Index is about an interesting notion but is not very different from Accumulated cyclone energy. I'm not familiar with this index, nor the authors, but it is mentionned in the article that it is a proprietary item, not a general knowledge one. I don't know if it should be deleted but I've added the Avert template to warn the reader. Any comment ? Pierre cb (talk) 23:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Hm, from a Google search shows it isn't used much with just 241 hits. The top hit shows a proposal at the "28th Conference on Hurricanes and Tropical Meteorology". It seems it is hardly used anywhere (seems to be limited to just that company). The scale is merely a proposal as an alternative to the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale, so perhaps it should be redirected there, and maybe explained a little better on that page? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I like the idea of it being a separate article, because it is different than the Saffir-Simpson scale and ACE. There have been many such proposals for alternatives to the Saffir-Simpson scale over the years (they all could be separate articles in their own right on wikipedia), but NHC has rejected them all. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist as their own articles. However, it does look like an advertisement, so I understand the tags being placed on the page. However, we may want to consider having a comprehensive article such as Tropical cyclone scales having a section having an overview of all related tropical cyclone scales. Wait a second, we do, and it's even going through the GAN/GAC/GAR process right now. Hmmmmm. => Thegreatdr (talk) 22:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Heh, well that might be a good idea, then, merging to a place like that. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Largest Atlantic Hurricanes

Nuvola apps important.svgTemplate:Largest Atlantic Hurricanes has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I did a search, and did not find an entry for discussion. This isn't be deleted merely because someone placed an improper citation in it, is there? The citation should be the extended best track database, which is within our project resources pages on the various sections of this project. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:39, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
It's not necessary to delete it. Maybe it can be done by HSI, radii of closed isobar, etc. Potapych (talk) 23:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
It looks like gale radii, but the values didn't quite match so I fixed the values in the table based on the extended best track database. Thegreatdr (talk) 02:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
If some of those are tied I think we do 1,1, and then jump to 3,3... etc. but I'm not sure how they are arranged. Potapych (talk) 03:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


Um... HELP!!!

Sorry to call for help AGAIN but I have a problem on my 2009 Atlantic hurricane season sandbox... some of the text has dissappeared but I cannot find the coding that has made it dissapper... the text is still there in the edit box...

HELP!!!

User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 18:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

It was a ref problem, I fixed it. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

1997 Pacific hurricane season FT under retention...

Hey, the creation of Timeline of the 1997 Pacific hurricane season kinda means the 1997 Pacific hurricane season should go under retention, as that article presents a notable gap. In other words, the topic has 3 months from the date of the article's creation (i.e. until March 25) to get the article to FL and into the topic, otherwise someone can nominate the topic for removal - rst20xx (talk) 00:53, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll start this weekend.--क्षेम्य Tranquility 01:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


Season articles already created...

Um.. I thought that I was doing this seasons season articles??? I have seen all of them pop up....

Any reason??

User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 13:57, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Nobody owns articles... –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 15:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
If that were true, poor HurricaneHink! He created most of the season articles. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Hah, don't remind me. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Anyway Itfc+canes=me Just change your sandboxes to the SHEM as we will be needing them in June.Jason Rees (talk) 16:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I know Julian.. but whoever made it wasted space on wikipedia....it was clearly listed on our project page that the sandbox was listed wherever... User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 20:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Eh? Wikipedia isn't written on paper, it's not possible to waste space on it. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to edit any article on wikipedia

Over the years, I've seen people race to create new storm articles, as if somehow this means the article is theirs or this somehow adds to their prestige within the project. This is not the case. Feel free to improve any article you are interested in on here. If you want to improve an article to GA or FA, you don't need to ask any of our permissions. If you feel you want to inform the person who initially created or did much of the work in the article that you'd like to improve it, that's your call. It's not required or expected. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:34, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Totally agreed. Given how few of us there are, we shouldn't ask for permission for anything. It's a free encyclopedia. Worst comes to worst, if two people want to work on the same article, collaborate! :) --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep and eye on Ileana and Agni

Hink is gone, so it will be up to us to help the articles through GAN/GAR/GAC, if any issues spring up during its review. Thegreatdr (talk) 10:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll keep a watch on them, although I have no reason to believe they're going to have any issues. :) –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:05, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
It's just a head's up, no more. We had these type of issues when people would take periods of time off, or retire, over the past few years. I'm not sure how many in the project now had to deal with this kind of issue back then. Anyone who's been editing on here for about 5 years certainly has the right to retire. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 15:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

SHem 1-minute winds

It seems that recently the JTWC has been highly conservative with their intensities, with a current example being ITC Fanele. The official 1-minute winds (according to the international best track writer) is the 10-minute winds multiplied by 1.14. With this, Fanele should be 114kts (1-min) but the intensity from the JTWC is 90kts. I think that we should start using the conversion as the official 1-minute winds instead of the JTWC advisories for the SHem. Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Cyclonebiskit 13:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not for us to judge on wikipedia whether a tropical cyclone warning center or regional specialized meteorological center is doing a good job, just to use their data within the articles since they are primary sources. The new infoboxes used already have spaces for 1-min winds from JTWC/NHC, and 10-min winds from other warning centers (at least JMA). If we did this for one storm, we'd need to do this for all storms in the southern AND eastern hemispheres. You willing to convert them all yourself? I'm not in favor of this. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Im surprised that The JTWC is calling a Cat 5 Cyclone AUS - Unoffical Comparision a "High" Cat 2 on the SSHS. Jason Rees (talk) 17:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Request for track map creation (1985 PTS article)

For the 1985 Pacific typhoon season article, we need to generate tracks for the April and early July systems. Their tracks are at this web site on pages 46 and 51, and both are considered TDs within that document. Once they're added, the article can be submitted for GAC/GAN/GAR. Thanks for whatever help you all can provide. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done -Ramisses (talk) 16:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. =) I went ahead and nominated the article in the meantime, since it seems to take people a month or so to get to reviewing season articles. Thegreatdr (talk) 08:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Timelines in or separate from season articles?

After some discussion on the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season page, I split off information from the lead and created a timeline for the article, which has become standard to the Pacific typhoon season articles. It was then noticed that some of the recent Atlantic articles had a separate timeline article associated with them. Why is this? Is this going to be done for all tropical cyclone seasons in all basins? If the answer is no, we need to reconsider these articles, because it would violate neutral point of view, and make one wonder "What makes the Atlantic so special?" Its activity is not especially important in the global scheme of things. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

i cant see why we cant make Timelines for all the basins and also include them in the seasonal articles, esspecially since it seems to fit in to the seasonal articles rather nicely IMO. We have also been doing Timeline articles for all of the basins for a couple of years now.Jason Rees (talk) 18:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there an easy way to see which ones have been created already? Do they have their own category? Thegreatdr (talk) 19:52, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Category:Meteorology timelines is a quick way to see what timelines have been created though i may break that down in to basins laterJason Rees (talk) 22:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Dolly

The Dolly TCR is out. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Project-space sandboxes

Just a though, instead of individual editors working on articles in their userspace, it seems that it would be more productive to collaborate on them in project-space sandboxes to allow for a more broad participation. Not sure if it'll work due to the lack of editors, but is it worth a shot? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Cyclonebiskit 02:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Its worth a shot i thinkJason Rees (talk) 02:56, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

How would that differ from just editing the article within a normal wikipedia article space? I've never quite gotten the idea of sandboxes...they occasionally flare conflict within the project when multiple people create a sandbox for a system, or someone creates the main article while someone is sandboxing. There is an appropriate tag to place on top of an article you're significantly editing out in the main wikipedia space. Although the idea is good, it's already used within normal wikipedia articles. Maybe that's why I like it. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 05:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Track map requests

Southern Pacific

Since Ramisses is busy for a little while In real life can someone do the trackmaps for the SPAC 08-09 Tracking data is here

Western Pacific

Three of the tropical depressions from the 1986 Pacific typhoon season, whose track maps are within this document, need maps. Thanks for whatever help you all are able to provide. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of time to do these, but 95 percent of the work is formatting the data into HURDAT format. If anyone wants other track maps, format them and put them where someone with a working copy of the program can copy the data. Keep in mind that the template at Commons doesn't have any options for tracks generated from other warning center data. The track map program also doesn't include that pink color or the light aquamarine color because it only works with 1-minute data. Also, track maps from other warning centers can look quite jerky because they don't all smooth them out like NHC or JTWC. Potapych (talk) 21:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Good to know. Here are the four tracks I need:

00010 07/20/1986 TROPICAL STORM 00020 07/20*1882482 30 1000*1962488 30 998*2032494 35 996*2082498 35 996* 00030 07/21*2152504 35 996*2182511 35 996*2202516 30 998*2252523 0 998* 00040 07/22*2272530 0 998*2272533 0 998*2272536 0 998*2262540 0 1002* 00050 07/23*2282546 0 1004*2302550 0 1002*2302550 0 1002*2352555 0 1002* 00060 07/24*2402560 0 1004*2402570 0 1004*2402580 0 1004* 0 0 0 0* 00070 TS 01010 08/09/1986 TROPICAL DEPRESSION 01020 08/09* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0*1742467 25 998*1772474 25 998* 01030 08/10*1792481 25 998*1832487 25 997*1882490 25 996*1932496 25 996* 01040 08/11*1922505 25 995*1912527 30 994*1962524 30 994*2042530 30 996* 01050 08/12*2202535 25 997* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0* 01060 TD 02000 09/02/1986 TROPICAL DEPRESSION 02010 09/02*3002200 30 992*3092207 30 992*3212214 30 992*3372217 30 993* 02020 09/03*3512210 30 996*3612201 30 997*3802190 30 998*4042177 25 998* 02030 TD 03010 11/25/1986 TROPICAL DEPRESSION 03020 11/25*0812497 30 1002*0832500 30 1002*0862502 30 1002*0902502 30 1002* 03030 11/26*0932500 30 1002* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0* 03040 TD

Despite the look, it is in the proper format if you copy from the source code of this page. I'm not completely helpless. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 22:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a note The trackmaps done so far this season dont look "Jerky". Also u should be able to use Nadi data for the depressions esspecially as they were not monitored by JTWC. JTWC ussually cut of 1/2 the track for the Spac see Hettie for proof Jason Rees (talk) 13:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

ACR on IRC

Due to the lack of activity on the A-class review page for the project, I'm proposing that we use our IRC channel to a greater extent and have the ACR there. By having it there, discussions can both start and close faster being that many of us (frequent editors) are online. Everyones thoughts on this are much appreciated :) Cyclonebiskit 17:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Support I quite like this idea though the only things i would say is that we would have to keep a record of all our conversations regarding the subect of ACR. Jason Rees (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
That is true, probably C & P the conversation then post it in an ACR archive. Cyclonebiskit 17:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
There are barely enough active editors, let alone those that use IRC. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 23:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Milestone Announcements

This was on the met project page. FYI. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Announcements
  • All WikiProjects are invited to have their "milestone-reached" announcements automatically placed onto Wikipedia's announcements page.
  • Milestones could include the number of FAs, GAs or articles covered by the project.
  • No work need be done by the project themselves; they just need to provide some details when they sign up. A bot will do all of the hard work.

I thought this WikiProject might be interested. Ping me with any specific queries or leave them on the page linked to above. Thanks! - Jarry1250 (t, c) 22:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Old Hurricane "seasons"

Concerning the old hurricane seasons articles I think we use confusing titles and are including somewhat "original research":

  1. There had not been "hurricane seasons" until this term was used for the first time, certainly through someone at the NWS, some time after monitoring of tropical weather began during the 1870s. Before even the wording "hurricane" was unknown, many sources from the 19th century still speak of gales not of 'canes.
  2. However, those "old" articles merely describe hurricane seasons, they only describe some storms which the NHC today believes that they had been hurricanes but we don't know wether those storms were tropical and those listings are not complete either – they list a storm every few years and then again two or more in the same year. That are not "season articles".

So I think that the articles concerned should be renamed, and another heading should be found for the introes. --Matthiasb (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Before 1933, you have a point. Semantics have been hotly debated in this project before, such as during Zeta (2005-2006). We tried to reword the intro to the Atlantic article leads in such a way not to imply that the term was in use back then. It would be easier (and avoid many arguments) if we just had titles for the articles such as 1897 Atlantic tropical cyclones, 1972 Atlantic tropical and subtropical cyclones, or 1950 Western Pacific tropical cyclones. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
But just because the term "hurricane season" wasn't in use back then does not mean that there were not hurricane seasons the thing. I'm sure that it is pretty likely that most Atlantic tropical cyclones in the 1900's formed between June and November and especially in September. Basically, hurricane seasons in all but name. But YYYY-YY Basin tropical cyclones would be an acceptable name style for multiple-year articles. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 00:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Spurred on by the comments left above im now wondering if before 1945 we should group all the storms for one season together in one big article called the 1945 Northern Hemisphere Tropical Cyclone season for example.Jason Rees (talk) 00:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
There have been proposals to group basins/global activity into one article before. The problem is, the individual basin articles would still serve as subarticles, so it doesn't really solve anything, other than to increase the amount of season articles which have yet to pass Stub/Start class. Thegreatdr (talk) 03:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
@Miss Madeline: You have a point: obviously there had been hurricane seasons for ages. However: those articles do not describe hurricane seasons but are a collection of storms which have been found notable by chronists to be mentioned. (We even don't know if those storms were tropical.)
@All: When I started this, I did not look about storms in 20th century, I thought mainly of this lists which we used to have for the years into the 1800s. Why not rename those articles in something like List of pre-1801 Atlantic storms or so? When we're doing this, we also could combine some of them, I don't think the 18th century must be split into several articles. If so we should also change the borders: The 00' are still part of the preceding century. --Matthiasb (talk) 13:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Since there's no way to know definitely if many of the tropical cyclones (certainly systems weaker than hurricanes( listed prior to 1944 (reconnaisance), or any prior to 1930 (radiosonde) were tropical (meaning had a warm core), what is your alternative? All we can use is HURDAT, and state that systems within HURDAT between 1851 and the 1930s were tropical because NHC says so. Before that, we have the chonologies many have written, including myself. Just imagine the debate once they extend the database back to 1800 (which has been a long term goal for years now). Thegreatdr (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
For instance, is 1780–1789 Atlantic hurricane seasons an article about hurrican seasons? It is not, obviously. It's a list of some weather events. However, also the author of this publication compiled a history of hurricanes but did not compile hurricane seasons. ;-) --Matthiasb (talk) 18:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Never heard of him before. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 15:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
That made me lol. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 16:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Old Images

Does anyone know if you can get hurricane images from the mid-late '60s online, if so where? --Yue of the North 20:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

You might be able to try the JTWC's ATCRS for that era otherwise Nasa possibly?Jason Rees (talk) 01:51, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
There were Satellites back in the 60's? User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 15:54, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to add criterion "1(f)" to the Featured article criteria

Since this project is one the most prolific featured article producers, members may wish to know of the proposed addition of a criterion to the featured article criteria. See Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria#Proposal for 1(f). Dabomb87 (talk) 22:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Um... HELP!!!

Sorry to call for help AGAIN but I have a problem on my 2009 Atlantic hurricane season sandbox... some of the text has dissappeared but I cannot find the coding that has made it dissapper... the text is still there in the edit box...

HELP!!!

User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 18:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

It was a ref problem, I fixed it. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

1997 Pacific hurricane season FT under retention...

Hey, the creation of Timeline of the 1997 Pacific hurricane season kinda means the 1997 Pacific hurricane season should go under retention, as that article presents a notable gap. In other words, the topic has 3 months from the date of the article's creation (i.e. until March 25) to get the article to FL and into the topic, otherwise someone can nominate the topic for removal - rst20xx (talk) 00:53, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll start this weekend.--क्षेम्य Tranquility 01:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


Season articles already created...

Um.. I thought that I was doing this seasons season articles??? I have seen all of them pop up....

Any reason??

User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 13:57, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Nobody owns articles... –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 15:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
If that were true, poor HurricaneHink! He created most of the season articles. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Hah, don't remind me. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Anyway Itfc+canes=me Just change your sandboxes to the SHEM as we will be needing them in June.Jason Rees (talk) 16:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I know Julian.. but whoever made it wasted space on wikipedia....it was clearly listed on our project page that the sandbox was listed wherever... User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 20:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Eh? Wikipedia isn't written on paper, it's not possible to waste space on it. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to edit any article on wikipedia

Over the years, I've seen people race to create new storm articles, as if somehow this means the article is theirs or this somehow adds to their prestige within the project. This is not the case. Feel free to improve any article you are interested in on here. If you want to improve an article to GA or FA, you don't need to ask any of our permissions. If you feel you want to inform the person who initially created or did much of the work in the article that you'd like to improve it, that's your call. It's not required or expected. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:34, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Totally agreed. Given how few of us there are, we shouldn't ask for permission for anything. It's a free encyclopedia. Worst comes to worst, if two people want to work on the same article, collaborate! :) --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep and eye on Ileana and Agni

Hink is gone, so it will be up to us to help the articles through GAN/GAR/GAC, if any issues spring up during its review. Thegreatdr (talk) 10:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll keep a watch on them, although I have no reason to believe they're going to have any issues. :) –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:05, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
It's just a head's up, no more. We had these type of issues when people would take periods of time off, or retire, over the past few years. I'm not sure how many in the project now had to deal with this kind of issue back then. Anyone who's been editing on here for about 5 years certainly has the right to retire. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 15:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

SHem 1-minute winds

It seems that recently the JTWC has been highly conservative with their intensities, with a current example being ITC Fanele. The official 1-minute winds (according to the international best track writer) is the 10-minute winds multiplied by 1.14. With this, Fanele should be 114kts (1-min) but the intensity from the JTWC is 90kts. I think that we should start using the conversion as the official 1-minute winds instead of the JTWC advisories for the SHem. Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Cyclonebiskit 13:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not for us to judge on wikipedia whether a tropical cyclone warning center or regional specialized meteorological center is doing a good job, just to use their data within the articles since they are primary sources. The new infoboxes used already have spaces for 1-min winds from JTWC/NHC, and 10-min winds from other warning centers (at least JMA). If we did this for one storm, we'd need to do this for all storms in the southern AND eastern hemispheres. You willing to convert them all yourself? I'm not in favor of this. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Im surprised that The JTWC is calling a Cat 5 Cyclone AUS - Unoffical Comparision a "High" Cat 2 on the SSHS. Jason Rees (talk) 17:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Request for track map creation (1985 PTS article)

For the 1985 Pacific typhoon season article, we need to generate tracks for the April and early July systems. Their tracks are at this web site on pages 46 and 51, and both are considered TDs within that document. Once they're added, the article can be submitted for GAC/GAN/GAR. Thanks for whatever help you all can provide. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done -Ramisses (talk) 16:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. =) I went ahead and nominated the article in the meantime, since it seems to take people a month or so to get to reviewing season articles. Thegreatdr (talk) 08:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Timelines in or separate from season articles?

After some discussion on the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season page, I split off information from the lead and created a timeline for the article, which has become standard to the Pacific typhoon season articles. It was then noticed that some of the recent Atlantic articles had a separate timeline article associated with them. Why is this? Is this going to be done for all tropical cyclone seasons in all basins? If the answer is no, we need to reconsider these articles, because it would violate neutral point of view, and make one wonder "What makes the Atlantic so special?" Its activity is not especially important in the global scheme of things. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

i cant see why we cant make Timelines for all the basins and also include them in the seasonal articles, esspecially since it seems to fit in to the seasonal articles rather nicely IMO. We have also been doing Timeline articles for all of the basins for a couple of years now.Jason Rees (talk) 18:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there an easy way to see which ones have been created already? Do they have their own category? Thegreatdr (talk) 19:52, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Category:Meteorology timelines is a quick way to see what timelines have been created though i may break that down in to basins laterJason Rees (talk) 22:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Dolly

The Dolly TCR is out. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Project-space sandboxes

Just a though, instead of individual editors working on articles in their userspace, it seems that it would be more productive to collaborate on them in project-space sandboxes to allow for a more broad participation. Not sure if it'll work due to the lack of editors, but is it worth a shot? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Cyclonebiskit 02:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Its worth a shot i thinkJason Rees (talk) 02:56, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

How would that differ from just editing the article within a normal wikipedia article space? I've never quite gotten the idea of sandboxes...they occasionally flare conflict within the project when multiple people create a sandbox for a system, or someone creates the main article while someone is sandboxing. There is an appropriate tag to place on top of an article you're significantly editing out in the main wikipedia space. Although the idea is good, it's already used within normal wikipedia articles. Maybe that's why I like it. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 05:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Track map requests

Southern Pacific

Since Ramisses is busy for a little while In real life can someone do the trackmaps for the SPAC 08-09 Tracking data is here

Western Pacific

Three of the tropical depressions from the 1986 Pacific typhoon season, whose track maps are within this document, need maps. Thanks for whatever help you all are able to provide. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of time to do these, but 95 percent of the work is formatting the data into HURDAT format. If anyone wants other track maps, format them and put them where someone with a working copy of the program can copy the data. Keep in mind that the template at Commons doesn't have any options for tracks generated from other warning center data. The track map program also doesn't include that pink color or the light aquamarine color because it only works with 1-minute data. Also, track maps from other warning centers can look quite jerky because they don't all smooth them out like NHC or JTWC. Potapych (talk) 21:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Good to know. Here are the four tracks I need:

00010 07/20/1986 TROPICAL STORM 00020 07/20*1882482 30 1000*1962488 30 998*2032494 35 996*2082498 35 996* 00030 07/21*2152504 35 996*2182511 35 996*2202516 30 998*2252523 0 998* 00040 07/22*2272530 0 998*2272533 0 998*2272536 0 998*2262540 0 1002* 00050 07/23*2282546 0 1004*2302550 0 1002*2302550 0 1002*2352555 0 1002* 00060 07/24*2402560 0 1004*2402570 0 1004*2402580 0 1004* 0 0 0 0* 00070 TS 01010 08/09/1986 TROPICAL DEPRESSION 01020 08/09* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0*1742467 25 998*1772474 25 998* 01030 08/10*1792481 25 998*1832487 25 997*1882490 25 996*1932496 25 996* 01040 08/11*1922505 25 995*1912527 30 994*1962524 30 994*2042530 30 996* 01050 08/12*2202535 25 997* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0* 01060 TD 02000 09/02/1986 TROPICAL DEPRESSION 02010 09/02*3002200 30 992*3092207 30 992*3212214 30 992*3372217 30 993* 02020 09/03*3512210 30 996*3612201 30 997*3802190 30 998*4042177 25 998* 02030 TD 03010 11/25/1986 TROPICAL DEPRESSION 03020 11/25*0812497 30 1002*0832500 30 1002*0862502 30 1002*0902502 30 1002* 03030 11/26*0932500 30 1002* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0* 0 0 0 0* 03040 TD

Despite the look, it is in the proper format if you copy from the source code of this page. I'm not completely helpless. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 22:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a note The trackmaps done so far this season dont look "Jerky". Also u should be able to use Nadi data for the depressions esspecially as they were not monitored by JTWC. JTWC ussually cut of 1/2 the track for the Spac see Hettie for proof Jason Rees (talk) 13:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

ACR on IRC

Due to the lack of activity on the A-class review page for the project, I'm proposing that we use our IRC channel to a greater extent and have the ACR there. By having it there, discussions can both start and close faster being that many of us (frequent editors) are online. Everyones thoughts on this are much appreciated :) Cyclonebiskit 17:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Support I quite like this idea though the only things i would say is that we would have to keep a record of all our conversations regarding the subect of ACR. Jason Rees (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
That is true, probably C & P the conversation then post it in an ACR archive. Cyclonebiskit 17:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
There are barely enough active editors, let alone those that use IRC. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 23:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Milestone Announcements

This was on the met project page. FYI. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Announcements
  • All WikiProjects are invited to have their "milestone-reached" announcements automatically placed onto Wikipedia's announcements page.
  • Milestones could include the number of FAs, GAs or articles covered by the project.
  • No work need be done by the project themselves; they just need to provide some details when they sign up. A bot will do all of the hard work.

I thought this WikiProject might be interested. Ping me with any specific queries or leave them on the page linked to above. Thanks! - Jarry1250 (t, c) 22:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Old Hurricane "seasons"

Concerning the old hurricane seasons articles I think we use confusing titles and are including somewhat "original research":

  1. There had not been "hurricane seasons" until this term was used for the first time, certainly through someone at the NWS, some time after monitoring of tropical weather began during the 1870s. Before even the wording "hurricane" was unknown, many sources from the 19th century still speak of gales not of 'canes.
  2. However, those "old" articles merely describe hurricane seasons, they only describe some storms which the NHC today believes that they had been hurricanes but we don't know wether those storms were tropical and those listings are not complete either – they list a storm every few years and then again two or more in the same year. That are not "season articles".

So I think that the articles concerned should be renamed, and another heading should be found for the introes. --Matthiasb (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Before 1933, you have a point. Semantics have been hotly debated in this project before, such as during Zeta (2005-2006). We tried to reword the intro to the Atlantic article leads in such a way not to imply that the term was in use back then. It would be easier (and avoid many arguments) if we just had titles for the articles such as 1897 Atlantic tropical cyclones, 1972 Atlantic tropical and subtropical cyclones, or 1950 Western Pacific tropical cyclones. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
But just because the term "hurricane season" wasn't in use back then does not mean that there were not hurricane seasons the thing. I'm sure that it is pretty likely that most Atlantic tropical cyclones in the 1900's formed between June and November and especially in September. Basically, hurricane seasons in all but name. But YYYY-YY Basin tropical cyclones would be an acceptable name style for multiple-year articles. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 00:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Spurred on by the comments left above im now wondering if before 1945 we should group all the storms for one season together in one big article called the 1945 Northern Hemisphere Tropical Cyclone season for example.Jason Rees (talk) 00:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
There have been proposals to group basins/global activity into one article before. The problem is, the individual basin articles would still serve as subarticles, so it doesn't really solve anything, other than to increase the amount of season articles which have yet to pass Stub/Start class. Thegreatdr (talk) 03:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
@Miss Madeline: You have a point: obviously there had been hurricane seasons for ages. However: those articles do not describe hurricane seasons but are a collection of storms which have been found notable by chronists to be mentioned. (We even don't know if those storms were tropical.)
@All: When I started this, I did not look about storms in 20th century, I thought mainly of this lists which we used to have for the years into the 1800s. Why not rename those articles in something like List of pre-1801 Atlantic storms or so? When we're doing this, we also could combine some of them, I don't think the 18th century must be split into several articles. If so we should also change the borders: The 00' are still part of the preceding century. --Matthiasb (talk) 13:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Since there's no way to know definitely if many of the tropical cyclones (certainly systems weaker than hurricanes( listed prior to 1944 (reconnaisance), or any prior to 1930 (radiosonde) were tropical (meaning had a warm core), what is your alternative? All we can use is HURDAT, and state that systems within HURDAT between 1851 and the 1930s were tropical because NHC says so. Before that, we have the chonologies many have written, including myself. Just imagine the debate once they extend the database back to 1800 (which has been a long term goal for years now). Thegreatdr (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
For instance, is 1780–1789 Atlantic hurricane seasons an article about hurrican seasons? It is not, obviously. It's a list of some weather events. However, also the author of this publication compiled a history of hurricanes but did not compile hurricane seasons. ;-) --Matthiasb (talk) 18:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Never heard of him before. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 15:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
That made me lol. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 16:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Old Images

Does anyone know if you can get hurricane images from the mid-late '60s online, if so where? --Yue of the North 20:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

You might be able to try the JTWC's ATCRS for that era otherwise Nasa possibly?Jason Rees (talk) 01:51, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
There were Satellites back in the 60's? User:Itfc+canes=me Talk Sign me! Its good to be back! 15:54, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to add criterion "1(f)" to the Featured article criteria

Since this project is one the most prolific featured article producers, members may wish to know of the proposed addition of a criterion to the featured article criteria. See Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria#Proposal for 1(f). Dabomb87 (talk) 22:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thread split - discussion on notability

There shouldn't be an article unless there's enough content to flesh out the section. There are also too many Start and Stub class articles that haven't been significantly changed in years. The problem is the editors chose to write about very uninteresting storms.Potapych (talk) 03:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Totally agreed. But that would require some sort of breakthrough in the project. ♬♩Hurricanehink (talk) 04:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
@ Potapych: The great thing about Wikipedia is that we're a volunteer project; we're neither paid, nor required, to work on "interesting" storms. In such an environment, people will likely work on what they wish. I don't see this as an issue. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 04:57, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
It takes work to fix them up, and then others need to maintain them to standards. It is a huge waste of time. Potapych (talk) 05:13, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Most of the project's articles are well beyond Wikipedia's average, actually. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 05:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
What about the idea of finishing the articles relating to older storms? From the project's main page, merely being beyond the wikipedia average is not enough for our project, is it? Thegreatdr (talk) 17:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

<--And, as I showed with this example, I merged all of the useful content into the season section without losing any information. The naming trivia isn't needed (appears in dabs), nor is the ACE (which, sadly, is still in the season articles). The same can be done with the other articles which had no land impact. As I also noted with Erick, it comes down to an interpretation of WP:NOT, most significantly with these two points.

  • ...a complete exposition of all possible details - this could justify not having every last bit of info on a storm. Storm articles are, by definition, "a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject."
  • ...a news report - this is the more debatable one. I personally believe that fish tropical storms are an example of this, as their only coverage is either in brief news stories while it is active or subsequent reports by respective agencies. If a storm never had subsequent news coverage (outside of season-end reports), then I don't think it should have an article.

But that's just me. ♬♩ Hurricanehink(talk) 06:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

We just thought of a potential question to ask for such storms. "Were there any independent sources outside of the relevant warning agency that reported on the storm?" That would exclude any news stories which only get their data from warning agencies (they are reliable, but in this case not independent), but would mean most any other source concerning the storm would assert notability (such as form of land impact). ♬♩ Hurricanehink(talk) 20:33, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I came up with a list of articles that would be affected (excluding hurricanes and subtropical storms) - Lorenzo 01, Dolly 02, TD7 02, Josephine 02, TD10 05, Lee 05, Jerry 07, Melissa 07, TD15 07, Nana 08, Emilia 88, Agatha 04, Kay 04, Beatriz 05, Lidia 05, Norma 05, Gilma 06, Olivia 06, Rosa 06, Alvin 07, Dalila 07, Erick 07, Cristina 08, Guchol 05, Bernard 08, and Dongo 09. ♬♩ Hurricanehink(talk) 22:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Darby 04? You sure? –Juliancolton TropicalCyclone00:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, added that by accident. ♬♩ Hurricanehink(talk) 01:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Many of these articles are more notable than we think. People are more likely to knowTropical Storm Lee (2005) than the San Antonio Silver Stars. Hurricanes are generally notable. Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home ,User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox
No, that is not the case at all. This discussion is an attempt to establish a notability criterion, based on existing Wikipedia principles. --♬♩ Hurricanehink(talk) 04:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I still believe any storm can get an article, but it needs to be constant. Besides much of these articles are GA's. Should we ask Jimbo and see what he thinks? Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox
There is no reason every storm should get an article. For example, a storm in 1851 that lasted 12 hours should generally not get an article. I'm just trying to get a set criteria, based on my interpretation of WP:NOT and WP:N. --♬♩ Hurricanehink(talk) 17:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia should cover every historical storm for which there is something to say based on reliable sources. Storms of recent years that were experienced by wikipedians themselves are more dubious. For historical storms, whether they have their own articles, or are grouped, or are listed, depends on the amount of differing content, which depends on the content in the sources. Once historical storms are sorted, recent storms can be sorted based on comparison with historical storms, out of our desire to be consistent. Exactly how information is arranged is best left to interested editors. AfD participants will not upset the system if the is agreement on a reasonable method. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hink - an Article on evrey storm is not needed esspecailly those that do not impact land Jason Rees (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Julian. Potapych, we score better than many of other wikiprojects, for example the Arena football project. Hink, I can easily find other soures, the Weather Channel, Fox news, and CNN.com. I feel that when you merge pages, you are hurting Wikipedia. A wikiproject should grow, not shrink. Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home ,User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox

This isn't about scoring. This is about having information in the best place. Other news agencies use the same info as the NHC, so it doesn't help to expand a fish storm article. How many people are honestly reading the fish storm articles? We're an encyclopedia, and when we're writing something, ultimately it's for the benefit of Wikipedia as a whole, not just of the project. Wikipedia as a whole benefits when the information is better organized in the season article, as opposed to splitting the same information into a separate article. ♬♩Hurricanehink (talk) 19:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Yellowevan - It is better for some storms like Cyclone Ken (2009} to remain in the seasonal articles simple as and that goes for the majority of the storms in the EPAC that did not affect land after it had been numbered.Jason Rees (talk) 19:36, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Merging issue

Judging from JC's actions, this recent merging spree is overdoing it. IIRC, merging was one of the problems with the project, yet there was a sudden influx in it. I don't think we should really be thinking about what articles to get rid of. It's fine to have stub articles or ones that don't have much information. There are much shorter articles throughout wikipedia, so there's no reason to make this project have standards like that. Everyones thoughts on this are very important for this to be resolved. Cyclonebiskit 16:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, most of the recent mergers (there have only been 3) have been for articles that couldn't really be expanded any more (or it would be impossible to have a complete article), so we simply opted not to have an article. The merging process is more to avoid an AFD. One article merged was Tropical Storm Kirsten (1966), which had very little info, and given the time period wasn't likely to have much more info. Another was the 1842 Spain hurricane, which only had one source on it, so per WP:N it shouldn't have an article. The third was Hurricane Lane (2000), which had been merged previously, and there was no new info added that was separate from the season article. IMO the problem isn't whether to merge stubby articles. The problem comes from what storms should get articles, which still seems to be a perennial debate. Perhaps as a project, we need to decide once and for all whether all, and truly all storms should have articles. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
And by the last part of what I said, I mean have a discussion mostly whether all storms are inherently notable, or not. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
I've requested a simple, preliminary straw poll to get some input. I think everyone knows both sides of the issue. I personally think notability should be determined by what the storm did, but others think that it is inherently notable because it was named. Let's keep discussions up here. I avoided a Neutral section, as there isn't a need. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
This place needs more common sense. There are probably 100 named storms every year. Most go unnoticed, because let's face it - who actually wants to read this article? Potapych (talk) 04:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
That's irrelevant, honestly. To avoid creating an article just because somebody might not read it is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing on Wikipedia—spreading the sum of all human knowledge. –Juliancolton | Talk 13:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
No, it's relevant. In summarizing all of human knowledge, we are deciding now whether to have an entire article with excessive detail for a potentially non-notable storm, versus having a condensed version in the season article. There was never a proposal to get rid of non-notable storms from the project - just whether or not having separate articles. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
When the article is relying on one source there's really little point to having it. There's no synthesis of material - it's just a restatement of an NHC report, which is already linked to in the season article. NHC also usually has a section that covers meteorological history and one for damages. Potapych (talk) 17:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Partly agreed. BTW, When should this poll close as all of our main editors have already voted?--Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox 17:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
I really can't vote on this one. I'm both for and against this. Older storms (pre 1990) shouldn't really have an article if they didn't impact land. However, it's reasonable to have an article for any storm post 2000 and debatable for 1990 to 1999 storms. Cyclonebiskit 17:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

As for the new one, I still don't think that all of the named ones should get articles. TS Chris in 2000, for example, could probably never have enough info for an article. Nothing should be inherently notable; we should have some criteria for determining tropical cyclone notability. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:43, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Being named/officially tracked is a sufficient criteria. –Juliancolton | Talk 18:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Chris 00? Kristy 00? Neither have enough info to support an article, as there are no TWO's, and they lasted so little time. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
I could easily write a four-paragraph article on Chris or Kristy. –Juliancolton | Talk 18:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
While I seriously doubt there could be four paragraphs of useful info on either, I more meant that there are likely several articles since 2000 that don't have enough info to support a well-built article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
In that case, we could write articles on every storm, and keep the ones that are able to sustain a reasonable amount of content. –Juliancolton | Talk 19:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
That is such a waste of time, though. First, I think we all know how easy it is to expand or condense information, depending on your choice of words. Second, what is a "reasonable amount"? We have many articles that have two or three paragraphs of met. history, and a short extra paragraph on trivia (naming, formerly ACE, confirming no land impact); and at the same time we usually have two paragraphs in the season article. Rather than worrying if there's not enough info or not, let's get a sensible criteria that can be applied throughout the project. I still prefer my earlier criteria of requiring sources independent of any warning centers, at least as a starting point. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
I think why many people write articles for fishspinners is because it is easy to write. It took me 5 min to write the MH for Kevin 03. It could easily become a GA. --Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox 02:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
YE dont talk bullshit when even JC has merged articles that are not worthy on off an article Jason Rees (talk) 03:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

On IRC, we're talking about named storms and their notability, and I thought of something that could use a comment. What about named storms that were de-classified in post-analysis (Isobel 07, Kendra 66, or Hillary 67)? Alternatively, what about unnamed storms that were only classified in post-analysis (2006, 1991, 1987? With these exceptions, can naming really be considered an adequate test for notability? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, what about tropical depressions? Are they notable, even though they aren't named? TD's receive similar coverage than named storms, except they don't appear in the best track. Juliancolton on IRC said he didn't think TD's were notable, because they weren't named, but why should a tropical cyclone with 35 mph winds be considered any less notable than a tropical cyclone thought to have 40 mph winds? My previous comment and this comment are reasons why I don't think naming should be an indicator of notability. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Some TDs are significantly more important due to their impacts, but I'm not sure where that fits in within notability. You'd think there would be some link between importance and notability. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
indeed Tropical depression 04F (2009) is a good exampleJason Rees (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
That's actually a pretty common flood event. The only types of depressions I think are notable are ones like 1982's Paul. Potapych (talk) 17:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't really know what the significance of this one is: Tropical Depression Gener (2008). Potapych (talk) 20:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I think it goes without asking, but why shouldn't notability mean importance? We briefly used to have a very-low importance class, for the fishspinner articles, and we admitted they all were much less important than other articles. Does the fact that it's named really make it important? What about for tropical depressions in general, which are by most means identical to a 40 mph named storm? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Because the difference between a very-low importance storm and a low-importance storm is pure semantic pedantry, and was cutting our noses to spite our faces, particularly when it came to WP 1.0 bot identifying our projects' articles. The same is true to this discussion: neither one is very important, so does it even matter? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I more meant that as a project, we admitted we had some extremely unimportant articles. I'll ask again the question which I haven't gotten a good answer - why should naming be considered so important? Why should a supposed 40 mph tropical cyclone be considered that much more notable than a supposed 35 mph tropical storm? It is well within the realm of possibility that a TD was actually a TS, and the TS was actually only a TD, since storms in the middle of the ocean generally don't get their winds directly measures. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
We shouldnt be assessing notabilty by naming as otherwise that would include all the PAGASA Depressions in the WPAC but none of the rest, unless their is something really important about them. Also if we go assessing by however many forecasting agencys or Federal Agencys monitored the storm it would mean that we have articles on evrey disturbance as more then one agency monitor each storm which would be stupid since most depressions do nothing bar exist. Jason Rees (talk) 04:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Someone started an article on that storm in the Indian Ocean right now. It says on the page here you're supposed to start a discussion on the season talk page first, so some are really too eager to start a bunch of new articles. Would anyone agree to starting discussions here (where it will be seen by more people) and getting support from five or more people before starting an article on a storm? Potapych (talk) 20:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
For active articles that threaten land, I think the project should start having project sandboxes, as was suggested a few months ago. This lets anyone work on it while it's active (as opposed to one person generally working on an article in their userspace), and it allows the article to be built up a bit before it's needed. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I actually meant that about starting articles about past storms. Anyone can challenge an article with a merge notice, but they probably won't do that for something like Hurricane Donna. It would make sense to check here before starting on a new article. Potapych (talk) 15:23, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Why do some people here think that not all named TC's (post 2000) are notable and why isn't the NHC an independent source? Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox
You know what, It is time to close this debate. They will be less arguing over notability if we allow all named storms since 2000 to have an article. These storms are guaranteed sources. Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox 14:27, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict)...no? We agreed that all named storms are not necessarily notable, as there is a certain time period when there are few to no sources. You can't just use a catch-all term like "all named storms have an article", because it's unfeasible: what about storms like Hurricane Gail (1953), Tropical Storm Rebecca (1961), Cyclone Sam (1977)? I would be fine if there was an agreement like "All named storms are notable enough to appear somewhere on Wikipedia", as that's what we should be doing with our season articles. Anything regarding all named storms having articles, even from an arbitrary date like 1998, well that's just silly. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Straw poll: are all named tropical cyclones inherently notable, regardless of what they did?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. The result of the Poll was: Not all Tropical cyclones are notable.
Yes
  1. Juliancolton | Talk 03:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  2. --Yue of the North 14:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  3. --Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox 17:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  4. Per below "vote" on straw poll. NuclearWarfare (Talk) 21:00, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
No
  1. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  2. Potapych (talk) 04:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  3. Mitchazenia :  Chat  Trained for the pen 14:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  4. Jason Rees (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  5. Cyclonebiskit 18:37, 9 April 2009 (UTC) (see above)
  6. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  7. Inherently? No. RunningOnBrains 21:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  8. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  9. Hurricane Typhoon Cyclone 00:29, 10 April 2009 (UTC) most of it are sort of unknown.
  10. No in the same way that not all major solar prominences are notable. Seddσn talk 02:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A new proposal: all named storms post-2000 are inherently notable, regardless of what they did.

Yes
  1. Juliancolton | Talk 18:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  2. --Yue of the North 19:19, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  3. Less headaches all around. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  4. Naming, advisory, reports, even for 3F of 2009 (even it haven't named). Hurricane Typhoon Cyclone 00:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
  5. Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox 02:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
  6. Even more so. There are guaranteed to be sources here. If every town has an article...well, why shouldn't Tropical Cyclones? There is just as much, if not a lot more, information to write valid articles on them. NuclearWarfare (Talk) 21:03, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
No
  1. Jason Rees (talk) 18:41, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  2. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:43, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  3. Mitchazenia :  Chat  Trained for the pen 19:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  4. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  5. Cyclonebiskit 18:43, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  6. Potapych (talk) 02:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
  7. --Crossmr (talk) 00:14, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

New Proposal: Having articles for all named tropical cyclones (2000-present) is reasonable, but the article most be at least start class to stay

Yes

  1. Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox

No

  1. I say at least C class to stay. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  2. I agree with Thegreatdr. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 00:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  3. C-classed. HurricaneSpin Talk My contributions 23:26, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Poll 4

As the second and third polls finished without a clear consensus we are going to have another poll to hopefully settle this argument once and for all

All named storms are notable enough to be included on Wikipedia, but not necessarily all to have their own article" ?

Yes
  1. Jason Rees (talk) 16:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  2. Second choice. –Juliancolton | Talk 16:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  3. This can be covered nicely in the season article, for most systems. The only storms which must have articles are the retired systems, which had significant impact. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  4. Yes. Fishspinners don't need articles, but should be covered in seasonal articles.-RunningOnBrains(talk page) 18:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  5. Leave Message ,Yellow Evan home , User:Yellow Evan/Sandbox
  6. Minor ones should be very detailed in season articles, but not necessary for storm articles. HurricaneSpin Talk My contributions 23:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
No
Other
  1. Other for reasons I'll get to. I think that "All named storms are notable enough to be included on Wikipedia, but not necessarily all to have their own article" is just a glorified way of saying "Keep the status quo". That is pretty much what we are doing now. Yes indeed, every namaeable storm should have a section, and not all of them need their own article, but this poll's inevitable decision does not go far enough towards deciding anything. At best, it adds an admonishment to make fewer articles. But in the iffy in-between cases, what exactly makes a storm with a section deserving of an article? This poll does not decide that. I think that this poll's inevitable decision will eventually evolve into what we have now. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 00:26, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  2. This whole controversy is absurd, stupid, and embarrassing. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 07:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  3. Yea, this poll does nothing. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

A more well-organized and comprehensive poll

User:Juliancolton/WPTC poll. –Juliancolton | Talk 00:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)