Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch

Addition to Note C suggestion

I notice the {{Like whom?}} template is missing from Note C, which reads: The templates {{Who}}, {{Which}}, {{By whom}}, or {{Attribution needed}} are available for editors to request an individual statement be more clearly attributed. Also, the template {{Where}} is similarly nowhere on the page. Not a big deal I suppose, just pointing this out. 5Q5|^✉

"Wikipedia:PUFFERY" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Wikipedia:PUFFERY has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 25 § Wikipedia:PUFFERY until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 02:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

"Wikipedia:Puff phrases" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Wikipedia:Puff phrases has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 25 § Wikipedia:Puff phrases until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 02:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Euphemisms and dysphemisms

Summary: The lack of equal wording warning about dysphemisms in section § Euphemisms is resulting in assertions at discussions that claim to be based on MOS:EUPHEMISM but run contrary to its spirit and are non-neutral. We should make it clear that dysphemisms can be equally problematic. Some re-org wrt § Contentious labels might be required later.

Avoiding euphemisms is all well and good, but our coverage at section § Euphemisms doesn't go far enough because it doesn't say anything about dysphemisms and leaves a hole that can be exploited to introduce or maintain non-neutral wording. This is having negative effects, imho, as it permits an appeal to MOS:EUPHEMISM to argue, paradoxically, in favor of non-neutral wording containing a dysphemism. This is happening now at at least one move request. We should add a statement about dysphemisms to clarify this. I haven't thought deeply about wording yet, but how about this for a first attempt; change the first sentence thus:

−

[[Euphemism]]s should generally be avoided in favor of more neutral and precise terms.

+

[[Euphemism]]s and [[dysphemism]]s should generally be avoided in favor of more neutral and precise terms.

and add the following as a new paragraph two:

−

should not be masked as ''[[collateral damage]]''.

+

should not be masked as ''[[collateral damage]]''. In the same way, precise, [[WP:NPOV|neutral wording]] should be used instead of [[dysphemism]]s. Avoid dysphemisms ''cripple'', ''addict'', and ''ghetto'' in favor of ''person with a disability'', ''person with substance use disorder'', or ''low-income neighborhood''.

We might want to add a second sentence, or new examples to the boxed material to include: "dumpster fire, hellhole, ex-con, mental patient..." as well.

Looking further down the road, the concept of Euphemisms is really a subset of the concept of § Contentious labels, and imho should be a subsection of it. However, it is only half of that concept, the other half being dysphemisms, which should also be a subsection. Note that § Contentious labels gives examples of both. This possible future organization is already hinted at by the boxed material at § Contentious labels, which includes both terrorist and freedom fighter, for example. That issue could be better explained in the context of a Contentious labels section that included both Euphemisms and Dysphemisms as subsections, but that would require a fair bit of consolidation and refactoring. This foreshadows where this might eventually lead; however, I don't wish to complicate things by addressing that now; more important and more urgent, imho, is to deal with the current situation which allows MOS to be cited in a way that supports non-neutral dysphemisms for MOS's lack of stating anything to the contrary.

WP:NPOV trumps MOS, and MOS should be adjusted to comply by making it clear that dysphemisms can be equally as non-neutral as euphemisms, and are likewise words to watch; failing to do so is causing twisted logic in discussions by assuming the contrary.

Full disclosure: I raised this discussion because of a problem I perceived here while taking part in a move request at Genital modification and mutilation, where my impression was that MOS:EUPHEMISM is being misused in a way contrary to WP:NPOV. I do have an opinion there, but I don't wish to tilt the scales in any way, so I would oppose making any change to MOS while that discussion is going on. However that turns out, my intent here is to improve MOS coverage and nothing more.

Thanks. Mathglot (talk) 19:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't know. Cripple is of course an old-fashioned term which one would normally avoid today anyway (though cf. Cripple#Reappropriation), but "addict" strikes me as neutral enough, and "ghetto" might be used misleadingly for "low-income neighborhood", but it might also refer to an actual ghetto. Words like "dumpster fire" (in the sense explained in dumpster fire) or "hellhole, ex-con" strike me as so non-encyclopedic that it goes without saying that we wouldn't use them outside of quotes anyway. Gawaon (talk) 20:36, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

You may be right about the examples, but please ignore any bad examples—that wasn't really my point. if you think dysphemisms should not be mentioned at all, that would be different, and I'd like to hear your argument about that. The problem I see now is that some editors are turning MOS on its head, arguing in favor of dysphemisms by linking MOS:EUPHEMISM, and that's crazytown and contrary to NPOV. We can always fix crappy examples in whatever wording is chosen. Mathglot (talk) 22:15, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'm certainly not opposed to the addition of "and dysphemism", if that's your point. Gawaon (talk) 22:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I see no issues with the addition. — Masem (t) 22:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Feedback requested at Talk:Ahomisation

Your feedback is requested at Talk:Ahomisation#Neologism as title. Thank you. Mathglot (talk) 03:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)