Talk:Nigamananda Paramahansa

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advice[edit]

I was asked on my talk page by JohnCD for advice. The advice he has given you , already is excellent, and just the same as I have given previously. Remove the praise, present in dispassionate language only the facts that can be sourced to published sources. Remove all references to you tube and blogs, and all statements that depend on them for references. Abbreviate the account of his miraculous early life, and make clear that it is own statement. The shorter and more neutral the article, the better chance it will have at DRV. In the present form, the chances are zero. I started you off by removing some unacceptable material. Please remember that Wikipedia is not the place for promotion of anything, including the ideas of any religion or religious leader or philosopher, no matter how worthy To the extent the article seem to do that, it will not be accepted.

And I also remind you that blaming the people who give you good advice will not accomplish anything positive. DGG ( talk ) 00:39, 15 March 2011 (UTC) Dcmpuri (talk) 13:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC) Thanks for kind advice. Definitely I will go accoring to your instruction. I will update you soon. Dcmpuri (talk) 16:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC) Hi Corrected the article according to you, but still 10-15 % checking is remaining. Checking is in progress. Give me some time to complete in all respectt. Your comment to current article are most welcome. Regards Dcmpuri

Fundamental objective description of Swami N.[edit]

Dcmpuri: it would help me greatly if you could think on the following and reply back to me: how would you, in one or two sentences, summarise Swami N's importance in a completely neutral and objective way? Something along the lines of "Swami N. was a Hindu mystic sage of (such-and-such school/movement), believed by his followers to have achieved sidhi (perfection) in four different forms of XYZ..." Again, for these purposes, assume no familiarity with this religious context on the reader's part, and no inclination to believe in Swami N's beliefs directly. Imagine simply describing undisputable facts that even Swami N's worst enemies would have to admit are fully accurate:

  • He was born on such-and-such date, in XYZ place
  • He held XYZ job
  • He wrote XYZ books
  • His followers are documented (by neutral academics) to believe XYZ
  • He physically died on X date, but his followers believe he lives on.

Think on how to describe absolutely neutral facts, that connote his importance not in terms of abstract spiritual value, but in terms of what earthly results any skeptic could see. I've made some edits to the work thus far, in the lede (intro), the start of "Life", and the "Death" sections. Let me know what you think. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:07, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Is this figure associated with the Shakti cult? MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Dcmpuri (talk) 05:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC) Dear 1) Can we replace the word "death" with "mahasamadhi" of Swami Nigamananda ?. Otherwise their disciples may ask questions ? His beloved disciple Shri Durgachanran Mohanty had written as produced below: Guru, is ever existent truth and eternal. He is deathless. He is ever present since time immemorial. He exists even now as he had been before. Our ever adorable Shri Shri Thakur(Swami Nigamananda) has been still existing as Sadguru. You can get reference from other link also: http://hariomgroup.net/hariombooks/satsang/English/SriGuruGita.htm (Chaper-II, 79)

WP:EUPHEMISM quote: "The word died is neutral and accurate." I will edit accordingly. The argument mentioned by Dcmpuri "Otherwise their disciples may ask questions" worries me. It does not send me a signal of an editor who actually is succeeding in being neutral in his editing. The supportive quote of a beloved disciple claiming deathlessness, which is little else than a paraphrasing of the verse from Guru Gita which then is pushed as a reference (a reference for what?), does not make for a better signal. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 12:52, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

2) Rest thing I will take care as per your instruction. 3) Now I have seen a new look to my article, according to Wiki standard, without your diligent effort it would be not possible. Hence thanks to you. 4)(Your question :this figure associated with the Shakti cult?) This figure associated with Shankarachary cult? Kindly let me know if you have more queries ? I will update you soon. I have full of source, which can be provided as per your demand. Regards Dcmpuri Dcmpuri (talk) 10:47, 16 March 2011 (UTC) Dear MatthewVanitas I have updated the fundemental (preface) section. If you feel i have advocated him too!, pls edit this according your choice. Still checking is in progress... Your comment to current edited article is most welcome. Till end of this journey I would take your helping hand other wise I will not go ahead. Regards

Greeting, will get back to you later in detail, but a few quick comments (and also note my other new message at the bottom of this page):
  • The "preface" you have added isn't really usable; note that Wikipedia articles do not have "prefaces". They start with a "lede" (WP:LEDE), which is very standardised and explains name, birth/death, where, basic importance, etc. Again, please look at a few more articles to get a feel for this.
  • Your additions are still very "POV" ("point of view", WP:POV), in that they clearly praise the subject. Words such as "divine", "luminous", etc. are not neutral, objective words.
  • I ask about the Shakti cult since one of the books mentioned at the bottom refers to Swami N. as pertaining to the Shakti cult; is that not accurate?
  • Please take a good look at the linked GoogleBooks I've added at the bottom, to see if any of the books have quotable/citeable material.
  • If you're using a GoogleBooks link, instead of typing "from GoogleBook search", please use the tool at this link to automatically format a good footnote. This tool has saved me a ton of time, and I recommend it highly: http://reftag.appspot.com/

Dcmpuri (talk) 05:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC) Dear Thanks for reply.

  • Yes Swami Nigamananda is pertaining to the Shakti cult.
  • I will give more attention to POV" ("point of view", WP:POV), and try my best to keep my article according to wiki standard.

Kindly wait for my next reply. Regards Dcmpuri (talk) 16:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

  • Dear MatthewVanitas

I have updated fundamental part, added few cite reference. Kindly check and update me whether these are ok or not ? Thanks Regards Dcmpuri Dcmpuri (talk) 16:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC) Dear MatthewVanitas Pls help me to finalize this part. I hope I have supplied all material related to Swami Nigamananda's fundamental part. If any thing remains kindly guide Regards

Regarding the lead could you, Dcmpuri, to start with please eliminate the discrepancy between the birth date stated in the lead and in the infobox and include a citation to a reliable source? Thanks, MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 11:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I "syncronized" the date of birth to 18 August to at least get us moving. Can anyone provide a source for the birth date? MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 03:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Why is Swami Nigamananda considered as someone pertaining to Shaki Cult? I reviewed the reference #8. All it does is mention his name as someone who wrote about Shaki Cult. In my opinion - it does not make someone part of Shakti cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.127.9.161 (talk) 02:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Added links to some Reliable Source books at bottom[edit]

Greetings, at the bottom of the page I've put a temporary section labeled "POSSIBLE BOOKS TO SCOUR FOR FOOTNOTES". Those are books which look to meet WP:RS requirements to be considered reliable sources. Please take a look through those, and see if any have facts that you'd like to footnote. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:27, 15 March 2011 (UTC) Dcmpuri (talk) 23:20, 19 March 2011 (UTC) Dcmpuri (talk) 06:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC) Dear I am checking now, update you soon. Dcmpuri (talk) 16:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC) Dear MatthewVanitas I have used all these reliable source in my artcile. Kindly see and advice.

Added Swami Nigamananda's Ideals and Teachings[edit]

Dcmpuri (talk) 23:20, 19 March 2011 (UTC) Dear MatthewVanitas Today I have added Swami Nigamananda's Ideala and Teachings. Kindly help me to check and guide me if any thing need to be edited further. "Wiki Quote" I wish to keep this in my article (beside External link section) can I go ahead?

WikiQuote is a separate issue from Wikipedia (though related projetcts); as I understand it WikiQuote would be a good place to put any lengthy quotes/speeches, while such should be kept to a minimum in Wikipedia itself, since articles here are basic overviews. I have seen your changes, and will try to get back to you in the next few days, as I'm currently out of town. Recall: the overall priority is to clean this article sufficiently that it can avoid deletion, so my interests are not at all to block your article, but to ensure that all material meets rigid standards so that it cannot be contested. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:40, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Added Viki Quote[edit]

Dcmpuri (talk) 14:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC) Dear MatthewVanitas I have added this section today. Kindly guide me if any thing is inproper. Regards Dcmpuri

Greetings, I'm a bit busy at the moment, but have taken a quick glance. The material you've added from outside resources looks indeed to be a step in the right direction, particularly getting outside sources to verify Nigamananda's primary goals/initiatives. We're still going to need to trim down the quotations, but we're heading in a good direction. Fundamentally, the article should answer the "5 W's", who, what, why, when, where, with a minimum of editorialising. I'll try and take a stab at it tonight or tomorrow to give you some feedback. If I don't get back to you by Friday or so, please shoot me a reminder. I'm definitely down to help you, I just have many competing activities. Thanks again for checking in. Oh, and rather than type your name at the close, please instead type ~~~~, which will automatically insert your name, talk page, and date. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Okay, here's my plan: sometime in the next two days, I will go through and make a very aggressive chop of any contentious material. Don't forget: removed text is not gone forever, it can be rescued from the History tab if need be. I will remove any material which is not encyclopedic, cannot be defended by citation, etc. and from the shorter and defensible article we can discuss whether there are any lackings that need to be addressed. You've done some good work adding solid citations; the main issue you're honing is removing personal bias, which can definitely be challenging. Again, will try to chip away at it over the next few days; do not be alarmed by any deletions of mine, we can restore text from older drafts if needed. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:14, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Items to tweak in lede; your input?[edit]

  • Need Oriya and Bengali names inserted where I indicated
  • "Influenced"? Do you mean "influential"? And I don't understand what "yogi of Indian yogi names" means.
  • It needs to be clearer in the lede what the two institutions mentioned, "Assam Bangiya Saraswat Math in Jorhat, Assam and Nilachala Saraswata Sangha" are; are they schools, temples? Are they extremely important in his history, so much so that they need to be in the lede?
  • The last part, "He believed Nigamananda as the symbol of truth whereas Lord Jagannatha was the symbol of life.", I literally do not understand what is meant by this. Can you explain here so I can help figure out how to paraphrase this?

If we can address these issues, I think we're close to having the lede paragraph 95% acceptable, and can press on with the rest. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC) Dear MatthewVanitas, I have rectified and removed un-wanted sentences. Kindly see now ok or not? Can you guide me how I add/insert the bengali as well as oriya charcter for Swami Nigamananda name. Really I Appreciate your work and help. My regards to you for all the time. Thanks & Regards Dcmpuri (talk) 16:55, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, you've gotten a lot better on sourcing, but we're still really struggly with "POV" ("point of view", WP:POV). The article is still chock-full of phrases and sentences stating that Nigamananda is a great and amazing person, that his religious beliefs are the best, etc. While you're certainly free to believe that, such subjective views are not encyclopedic. Put it this way: don't feel that your purpose is to promote Nigamandanda, but to describe him in a way that everyone, believers, non-believers, and even his enemies would agree is factual. If you say "he was the greatest guru ever", I'm sure many followers of other gurus would disagree. However, if you say "he wrote the following five Bengali books", then even his worst enemies would have to admit that, indeed, he did write such books. Again, when I go to do a major chop in a few days, I'm going to remove anything remotely promotional or subjective, and after that we can see if there's a way to polish that material to neutrality and restore it. I realise it can be difficult to write neutrally about a topic you care about, but it is absolutely, fundamentally required that Wikipedia articles, even about religion, be WP:NPOV (neutral point of view). I recommend you read WP:POV and WP:NPOV to get a feel for the process.
Regarding the Oriya and Bengali names; do you not have some setting on your computer for typing in those languages? Do you yourself know how his name is spelled in those languages? If you know how to spell them, but have no way to type them, at the very worst you could go to bn.wiki.org and or.wiki.org and copy-and-paste the individual letters you need to spell out the words. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Dear Vanitas Your above example gave me good lession and good understanding. However I have tried to remove the "promotional" parts. Kindly Check. I know you are a busy bee but having a heart,like a lotus. Dcmpuri (talk) 13:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Added Hindi,Bengali,Oriya Font for name "Swami Nigamananda"[edit]

Dear Vanitas I have tried my best and installed the fonts, however oriya is not supported in Wiki at present stage, I will try some other source,collect font and feed into my article. If you do not mind,I wish to add "Swami Nigamananda"'s name in your mother tounge language. As you are part of this holy project also. Kindly let me your monther tounge ? I have tried to correct as much as possible and removed the promotional parts in the article. Pls check and any thing found odd intimate me accordingly. Best Regards Dcmpuri (talk) 16:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

My mother tongue is English. Nigamandanda's name should only be added for those alternate languages which he commonly used; I assume this includes Bengali and Oriya. It is not necessary to add his name in all languages, just those immediately applicable to the subject personally. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Help in getting Wiki licences for my cusomized images[edit]

Dear Vanitas Today Swami Nigamananda's image deleted by Wiki, as it may not meet licence policy. Kindly help how I can add his images with holding Wiki licence Dcmpuri (talk) 15:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

When you upload images, either to Wikipedia or WikiCommons, you absolutely must pay close attention to the licensing selection bars at the bottom of the page. Your images were deleted because you did not select a license, indicating to whom the image belongs, its copyright status, and how it can be used. They should have sent you warnings on your Talk page, saying "you must fix this or the image will be deleted." There are longer tutorials on how to upload images, but in brief: if an image is pre-1923, or otherwise in the Public Domain, upload it to WikiCommons rather than directly to Wikipedia. If an image is post-1923, but meets the criteria for "Fair Use" (one single photo, not replaceable by a Public Domain image, of a deceased person or past event, only used to cover the specific subject the image illustrates), then you can upload it to Wikipedia and select the "Fair Use" forms, and fill out the required data, and select the proper Fair Use criteria from the drop-down menu. Feel free to write back if you still can't get the process. Very busy here, but do not fret, will continue to work on your article as time permits; feel free to drop me reminders every so often. Though, still, neutral tone is the biggest challenge. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I have supplied all kind of input,references etc. and also removed the promotional parts wherever I found, now this article is on your hand. Kindly give your personal attentaion to this article, after your busy schedule, not a hurry at all, take your own time. Regarding images I will try to upload same accordance to your guidance and Wiki policy.

Regards Dcmpuri (talk) 12:45, 30 March 2011 (UTC) Dear Vanitas, I am afraid, due to some reason my Id if blocked, there is no communication point with you. Can you provide your Email Id please ? Also as a friend I would like to request your Gmail Id may help me to talk with your via gtalk if it is extremely necessary. Hope you donot mind. Dcmpuri (talk) 14:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC) My Email : nilanchalswara@gmail.com Dcmpuri (talk) 06:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Educational Foundations[edit]

Dear Vanitas Added this. If you like we may keep this. Dcmpuri (talk) 14:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

My Daily Updates[edit]

1st April 2011 Hi Vanitas Today I have done the following activities on Swami Nigamananda's Article

  • I have added more few cite reference with ISBN google referene
  • I have added heading "Theory Thinking process of Death"
  • I have added heading "Bibliography"
  • I have added Yoga,Philosophy referece

On daily basis I will update my work in this sheet for your quick reference. Dcmpuri (talk) 16:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC) 4th April 2011 Hi Vanitas Today I have refined my article, hope now looking fine. Please check from your end, when you got time and update me what further developement can be done. Dcmpuri (talk) 15:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC) Greetings, I should have some time this evening, so will endeavor to do a major chop and get it published shortly. Again, note that any content I remove is not lost forever, it is stored in the page's History. So if I remove portions that you, and other editors, feel are actually fully in compliance with Wikipedia policy, it will not be difficult to cut-and-paste them back in. I just don't want you to be alarmed when I make substantial cuts. If nothing else, we can also leave a comment on the published article's Discussion page noting "drafts pre-dating April 2011 have a lot of content that was removed as not meeting Wikipedia policy", in case some neutral editor wants to review those and see what can be polished up to meet standards. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC) 5th April 2011 Yes I agree with your comments, I have handed over this project to you, you are welcome to do so. Please remove those..... which does not meet Wikipdedia policy. But this is real collection of Swamiji, which I collected from varius souces and stored in this article. Today I have polished more the article Dcmpuri (talk) 14:40, 5 April 2011 (UTC) 7th April 2011 Hi Vanitas Added Disscussion with Dr. Annie Besant Pls check and suggest if any thing... Dcmpuri (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC) 9th April 2011 Hi Vanitas Today I have reviewed completely the article and removed few more advocate part. Dcmpuri (talk) 15:13, 9 April 2011 (UTC) 12th April 2011 Hi Vanitas I have checked again whole article and added few Hindi(devanagari) words beside to English words, reference to those words,are pertaining to to our oriya, bengali languages or collected from Sanskrit, for better understanding of readers. Also few words like "Bhagvatgita" "Sagun Brahama" "Nirgun Brahama" these are derived from Sanskrit all added into Hindi(Devanagri) If any issue. Kindly revert back. Dcmpuri (talk) 11:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC) 13th April 2011 Hi Vanitas Today I have updated "Further reading Books" Dcmpuri (talk) 16:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I have removed 2 dupe entries. Further reading appears to be a mix of books/pubs by and about the article subject. If true I suggest you split pubs by Nigamananda into a Published works section per WP:MOS-BIBLIO and revise Further reading section as per WP:FURTHER and WP:Further reading. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 02:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

16th April 2011 Hi Vanitas Today I have reviewed throughly the article. In thease days I have added more Yoga theory of Swami Nigamananda. Dcmpuri (talk) 18:19, 16 April 2011 (UTC) 26th April 2011 Hi Vanitas Today I have read the article throughly. Dcmpuri (talk) 14:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC) 27th April 2011 Hi Vanitas Today I have uploaded few images. Dcmpuri (talk) 14:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC) 30th April 2011 Hi Vanitas Today I have uploaded 2 more pictures Under "Saraswata Granthavali" Dcmpuri (talk) 13:05, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Added Disscussion with Dr. Annie Besant[edit]

Hi Vanitas Today I have added this topic. Kindly check and if any thing I neeed to obey pls suggest Dcmpuri (talk)

Haven't forgotten you, but please slow down for a bit[edit]

I've been remiss in getting back to you, but will try in the next few days to do the big cleanup. Feel free to ping me a reminder on my Talk if it doesn't happen by Friday. In the meantime, please refrain from adding content, as I'd like to get my chop in first. One thing you could do to help me clean up though: in "Further reading", rather than footnote to a link, please remove the "ref" tags and just have the link directly in the list. Footnotes are for evidence, not links, so "Further reading" should be just straight links. Simply remove the "ref" and "/ref" tags as I've done for the first few entries and you'll be fine. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:58, 12 April 2011 (UTC) Hi Vanitas I did same as per your instruction. Take your own time not a hurry ! I am giving more weight to your work. Anyway this article needs through check with free time in hand. Dcmpuri (talk) 16:11, 13 April 2011 (UTC) Hi Vanitas Can I am expecting reply from you. Now this article is ready for cleanup from your side. I know you must be busy. I request you kindly drop a word for me. Dcmpuri (talk) 12:00, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Possible place for the old draft after the new chop[edit]

Greetings, as mentioned before, once we chop and publish, we'll be removing a lot of material that is just too technical or specialised for a general encyclopedia. On the bright side, all that info will still be preserveed in the History of the page. Further, there are several non-Wikipedia wiki websites which accept articles from contributors; you could also take your article to those sites and offer to post in on those pages. I don't know the online yoga community, but sites like http://knowyoga.org seem promising and include contributor articles. Just bringing up a few ideas. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC) Hi Vanitas Really I could not understand this "Possible place for the old draft after the new chop". Can you please highlight me again ? Recent article is containing, Swami Nigamananda's more teachings, theory on Yoga, theory on "self realization" and "life after death" which is a great contribution to the world, no personal bias. But in old article no such things are available. I have stoped adding further contents. I feel this may be final. Please feel free to clean-up the article according to Wiki policy. Our goal is to publish this article for this world, as they will aware Swami Nigamananda's philosophy and his contribution to mankind. If this article published successfully, We will feel that we have contributed some thing to world via Wiki. Thanking you a lot for refering non-wiki sites and ideas. Dcmpuri (talk) 14:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Article start date on 11-1-11 (10th Annual Years of Wikipedia)[edit]

Hi Vanitas, This Article I have started on holy day, 11th Jan 2011 i.e. on 10th Annual Year of Wikipedia. One more thing I would like to update you that "Saraswata Matha" founded by Swami Nigamananda is going to complete its 100th Year on 6th May 2011. I have included this sentence in the article. Kindly look this and start clean up the article. If any thing remain from my side kindly update me. Can I hope to publish this article before 6th May 2011. Dcmpuri (talk) 13:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Just waiting for you[edit]

Hi Vanitas, I am waiting for your reply. Kindly drop few words for me for further proceedings. Dcmpuri (talk) 14:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Move to Nigamananda?[edit]

Greetings, as mentioned before, titles are only used in an article title when they are fundamental to someone's name. He is indeed referred to as "Nigamananda" in some of the books you cite, and in this context that name refers primarily to him, yes? Undoubtedly, he is a Swami, but is such necessary in the title? I think the title would be cleaner as simply his name, and again that is the standard policy barring special cases, where a term like "Shri", "Saint", etc. is a genuine portion of the person's WP:COMMONNAME as opposed to simply a descriptor/title. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Support as per the above. (Corrected two spelling errors.) MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 00:30, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Dcmpuri, do you have any objections prior to our moving the name? MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi MatthewVanitas
How are you?
Infact, I had requested you in my earlier corrospendence to rename Swami Nigamananda to simply Nigamananda to support Wikipedia's standard policy.
Kindly go ahead to do same.
Regards

Dcmpuri (talk) 05:57, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Year numbering systems and months[edit]

Years shoould be numbered according to the traditional western Dionysian era (Common Era) per WP:ERA. Can we please have all occurrences of BS converted, Dcmpuri? Also, there is a widespread use of both Bengali calendar and Hindu calendar month names. Please refer to WP:MONTH and revise accordingly. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 01:20, 8 June 2011 (UTC) Dear MarB4

We would like to keep the year as "BS" according to Bengal calendar. Can we go ahead ?
Kindly Update me.

Dcmpuri (talk) 11:24, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Who do you refer to with plural we and how would you argue the use of Bengal calendar? MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 15:37, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear MarB4

1) We have a group community. In few correspondences, I used to write "we" indicating to us, as a group. Same has appended here mistakenly. Next time I will take care to write "I".
2) To clear my query I had asked you about "BS" Bengal calendar, whether can it be used in Wikipedia? I not would argue the use of Bengal calendar

Dcmpuri (talk) 10:46, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear MarB4

Years are numbered according to the traditional western Dionysian era (Common Era) per WP:ERA. All occurrences of BS are converted. Kindly check and confirm.

Dcmpuri (talk) 14:26, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Failed verification[edit]

Amongst the many External links is this one

and in other circumstances I would likely just have been bold and removed it from the list. However, the URL is used in 10 or 11 cases as references in inline citations. Will the editor(s) responsible for this link as a reference please update with full citations. They span a variety of different issues and therefor need to be updated to individual citations with some really solid quotes and pointing back to reliable sources. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 21:30, 8 June 2011 (UTC) Earlier today I put an FV tag on this line in the lead: After his ordination as a sannyasi, Nigamandanda came to be known as Paramahansa Srimat Swami Nigamananda Saraswati Deva.<ref>Swami Nigamananda a collection from Benglapedia</ref> as the source actually writes "After his ordination as a sannyasi, he came to be known as Swami Nigamananda Saraswati Paramahansha." I notice that http://nsspuri.org/ on its front page writes Paramahansa Srimad Swami Nigamananda Saraswati Dev. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 22:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC) One more FV: Birgit Etlinger (November 2007). Geister, Gottheiten und andere Wesen- Diagnosemethoden im religiösen Kontext Orissas(Indien) unter besonderer Berücksichtigung ayurvedischer Nosologie (in German). GRIN Verlag. pp. 123–. ISBN 9783638842761. Retrieved 18 March 2011.  Request for clarification posted on talk. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 04:05, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear MarB4;
Thanks for update!

1) Nilanchala Saraswata Sangha, Puri is under construction... I wish to remove this also for now, which were given to 10 or 11 references. I will come back with details after the site(http://nsspuri.org) build fully. 2) Actual name of "Nigamananda" with honor is PARAMAHANSA SHRIMAD SWAMI NIGAMANANDA SARASWATI DEVA, we will refer this site http://web.jayaguru.net/amsas/ instead of http://www.banglapedia.org/httpdocs/HT/N_0174.HTM (site owner has not provided his hame properly here) 3) In this link- Birgit Etlinger (November 2007). Geister, Gottheiten und andere Wesen- Diagnosemethoden im religiösen Kontext Orissas(Indien) unter besonderer Berücksichtigung ayurvedischer Nosologie (in German). GRIN Verlag. pp. 123–. ISBN 9783638842761. Retrieved 18 March 2011.  given name P.Nigamananda means Paramahansa Nigamananda (paramahansa is his honor). Dcmpuri (talk) 08:05, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Critical look at references[edit]

There were 16 instances of a ref named "Nigamānanda1997". It caught my eye because the first instance had a page field saying pages=Search string "greatest"

Doing such a search brings you to http://books.google.com/books?id=NlgqAAAAYAAJ&q=greatest#search_anchor where the first line is hard to read, but it does say

Sri Nigamananda is one of the greatest and most perfect Sadguru (Capable Master) the world has ever seen. He was not a social reformer. Therefore his words may not always appeal and please men and women, whose mind and body are deeply ...

That does not sound NPOV to me. The book is published by Nigamanada's organization if I am correct. Could the above quote be from the preface, Google Books does not show the page number. Dmcpuri I take you have the book on your desk, I have tagged the cite with the pn template can you update the field for us? Before passing RS judgement on this book I suggest we have a look at Full Citations including page numbers and quotes for the other cites. For this purpose I will remove the name= field and add the Full tag. Dmcpuri are you the man for updating these other 15 citations? MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 01:00, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear MarB4;
Thanks for update !
I am correct person for updating these 15 citations. It is hard time now to get page numbers and I would like to remove these 15 citations completely from article. Can I do so?
Please suggest furhter.
Dcmpuri (talk) 07:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Having only snippet view access on Google Books to the source is limiting. Assuming it is a collection of writings by Nigamananda translated into English (a primary source) with a preface and maybe commentary by his followers (a secondary source that judging from the above quote is biased and therefor questionable as source) it may be perfectly fine to use as reference for e.g. a central quote of Nigamananda's teaching that otherwise would only be supported by a Bengali-language source, and it may also be perfectly fine to use as a reference for dry facts, e.g. that the date of Nigamananda's death was the 29th, which I believe was one of the references. Primary sources are however often used cautiously to avoid original research, and secondary partisan sources that do not meet NPOV are always best to avoid. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 08:27, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

http://absmath.org/ is a dead link used in 11 citations. Latest Google cache is from 6 Jun 2011 16:43:34 GMT. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 10:20, 11 June 2011 (UTC) Dear MarB4

Thanks for your nice intimation!
We have following two Primiary references(books) in Bengali is available. Could we use these as Primary referecne to Nigamananda's philosophy & teaching ?
  1. "Premika Guru"
  2. "Yogi Guru"
Kindly update

I woulk like to state that, http://absmath.org/ is under maintenance activity, likely to restore soon otherwise we may replace other reliable source inplace of http://absmath.org/. Dcmpuri (talk) 11:18, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

The two books you mention are already among the references.
You write: "Could we use these as Primary reference [...]". Do you understand that those two books are Primary Sources? And although primary often indicates something is better than or takes precedence over something else, that is not the case when we are talking sources on WP. A Primary (1st hand) source does not make a primary (most important) reference, so to speak. Please let me know, that you understand this. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 15:34, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Library of Congress Lists[edit]

Removed 3 instances where these lists were used as references in the article text. WP:RS: Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 16:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

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Kindly check DR are now closed Dcmpuri (talk) 13:21, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

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Kindly check, this is under under discussion. Dcmpuri (talk) 13:23, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

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This is under discussion stage. Kindly check for same. Dcmpuri (talk) 13:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Added third-party publication references to Philosophy and teachings[edit]

Dear Wiki Administrator/Editor.
As per wikipedia standard and requirements, I have added/attached all reliable reference to Philosophy and teachings that appear in reliable third-party publications. Kindly check and confirm.
Regards Dcmpuri (talk) 15:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Maintenance templates per 26 July[edit]

I have had a good look at the article today and have added {{COI}}, {{close paraphrasing}}, and {{very long}} to the top, as well as some maintenance templates to individual sections. 1. Article length
This article now stands

   * File size: 384 kB
   * Prose size (including all HTML code): 61 kB
   * References (including all HTML code): 10157 B
   * Wiki text: 128 kB
   * Prose size (text only): 36 kB (6014 words) "readable prose size"
   * References (text only): 610 B

And to to have something to compare with: A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, founder of ISKCON, which stands

   * File size: 205 kB
   * Prose size (including all HTML code): 29 kB
   * References (including all HTML code): 5202 B
   * Wiki text: 46 kB
   * Prose size (text only): 16 kB (2534 words) "readable prose size"
   * References (text only): 314 B

or with Leonardo da Vinci

   * File size: 288 kB
   * Prose size (including all HTML code): 76 kB
   * References (including all HTML code): 12 kB
   * Wiki text: 91 kB
   * Prose size (text only): 45 kB (7588 words) "readable prose size"
   * References (text only): 883 B

Is it fair to say that considering the modest amount of reliable, independent sources establishing notability, this article is too long?

Several points can be made, for me the most obviously is the excessive detailing of almost everything regarding the subject; however: WP:NOTEVERYTHING: "(Wikipedia is not) A complete exposition of all possible details. Rather, an article is a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject. Treat verifiable and sourced statements with appropriate weight."

Example from Lead: "known honorifically as Shree Shree Thakur (श्री श्री ठाकुर), was born into a Brahmin family, in the hamlet of Kutabpur, a then sub-division of the Nadia district, (but now Meherpur district in Bangladesh), where the river Bhairab flows through this landscape bisecting the Mahakuma into two natural divisions. In past years, the English merchants were engaged in the trade of indigo on the banks of this river. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was also born in that same district."

Opinion: leads nowhere. Neither River Bhairab and the English trade are mentioned again, nor is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (puff?). Is there a reason why the description of his birthplace has to be this long?

Talking about the lead: the last paragraph is dedicated to listing his 5 books written in Bengali and translated to Odiya. This is wrapped in two statements from his followers. Opinion: don't we have something better to put in the lead? The fact that he is not (yet) translated into at least English leaves me with an impression that he is (still) a localized phenomenon. Opinions, please.

The conflict of interest challenges the article in respect to WP:NOTADVOCATE, and we now have

Teachings

  • 2 Mission
  • 3 Philosophy and teachings
  • 3.1 Other key teachings
  • 6 Theory of Jibanamukta Upasana
  • 7 Karmic Theory
  • 8 Theory of Process of thinking on Death
  • 9 Yoga
  • 9.1 Hatha Yoga and Laya Yoga
  • 9.2 Dharana and Dhyan
  • 9.3 Sampragyat Samadhi
  • 9.4 Trikut
  • 9.5 Yoga-Nidra

This seems to present every possible little detail to which any reference can be added, including widespread use of quotes, sometimes very long and without attribution of any special notability, as well as numerous quotes from scriptures, some of them not translated, all of them including transcriptions, cf. WP:QUOTEFARM. This starts as early as the Life section with this long quote in both Devanagari, romanization and translation

The sadhus were upset by this perceived disrespect in not honoring the mahant first, but in response Nigamananda quoted the scripture: "Manathaha Shri Jagannatha Madguru Shri Jagadguru Madatma Sarvabhutatma Tasmai Shri Gurave Namaha" (मनाथह श्री जगन्नाथ मदगुरु श्री जगदगुरु मदात्मा सर्वभूतात्मा तस्मै श्री गुरवे नमः) "My Lord is the Lord of the Universe. My Guru is the Guru of the whole world. My Self is the Self of all beings, therefore I prostrate to my Guru who has shown me this."

But when I come here as a reader I am left with no idea about what is essential about this man's views because everything seems to be important. How do we condense the above sections to something that, generally speaking, could come under a Teachings section?

Something similar can be said about:

Institutions

  • 5 Institutions founded
  • 5.1 Garohill Yoga Ashram
  • 5.2 Saraswata Matha
  • 5.3 100 Years of Saraswata Matha (1912 - 2011)
  • 5.4 Guru Braham Ashrams
  • 5.5 Nilachala Saraswata Sangha, Puri
  • 12 Other foundations
  • 12.1 Yoga
  • 12.2 Philosophy
  • 12.3 Education

While some of the larger projects might be supported by sources that merits inclusion, but described in far less detail than now, most of them seem to have no notability whatsoever apart from the fact that they exist, and should be removed, cf. WP:NOTDIRECTORY.

Further reading - Very long section, gives me the impression that it wants to be all-inclusive. Needs revision per WP:FURTHER.

Works - Standard appendix that will be moved according to WP:LAYOUT, and should be treated according to WP:WORKS. Are really none of his own books translated to English?

Veneration - Not enough coverage to put in a separate section. Suggest it moved to the end of Life section.

2. Paraphrasing
At least the Life section appears to be closely paraphrased after internet sites, e.g. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

Example: "One night Nalinikanta saw one Sadhu with a brilliant aura around him in his dream. He woke up to find the Sadhu standing beside his bed in ‘reality’." vs Wiki now: "one night in his dreams Nalinikanta saw a sadhu with a brilliant aura around him. He woke up to find the sadhu actually standing beside his bed." Opinions? MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 14:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply1[edit]

Hi MarB4 Really I am appreciating you and have seen the alerts (templates) on the article. Really this article needs a through checking for a good presentation according to standard Wikipedia policy and also need a right instructor like you. I knew more about the policy after reviewing your reply and appreciate that you have explained step by step. I will try my best and go according to your instruction for further correction in Article and I will need your help from time to time. Awaiting for your opinion? Dcmpuri (talk) 06:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dcmpuri. One little important thing: I am not instructing you, it would be better to think "suggestions" instead of "instructions", we are writing Wikipedia together. If you can use my opinions and suggestions in your editing of the article towards a more encyclopedic length and style, that would be great. It can be difficult to write dispassionately about something that is always on one's mind and close to one's heart. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 07:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi MarB4.
Yes, I will take your opinions and suggestions in editing of the article otherwise it would be difficult for me.

I would like to check this article throughly again show that it will complie with Wikipedia policy. But with out your suggestions, help it would not be possible, as I feel. Dcmpuri (talk) 05:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply2[edit]

Hi MarB4 I have collected few information from following source (is under copyright), now going to erase from the article or may be re-written to ensure that it complies with Wikipedia policy

  1. Collected only sanskrit sloks from http://bhagavad-gitaasitis.com/ example: avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā ; mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam ; paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto ; mama bhūta-maheśvaram which are given at "Philosophy and teachings" section (All solks to be erased)
  2. My Lord is the Lord of the Universe. My Guru is the Guru of the whole world. My Self is the Self of all beings, therefore I prostrate to my Guru who has shown me this This phrase collected from http://www.yogamag.net/archives/1983/gjuly83/stotram.shtml, can be found under section "Recognition as paramahamsa" (This phrase to be erased)
  3. This Shanti Ashrama is the result of my lifelong pursuit and endeavor; when compared with this Ashrama, my life appears to be of little importance—I can sacrifice my life hundred times for the sake of this Ashrama. It is my expectation that from this Ashrama in due course will come out hundreds and hundreds of Nigamanandas. My disciples, you are the preserver of my that Ashrama, and I hope that none of you will neglect this Ashrama, resembling my soulself and thereby will not be the cause of my death.- Swami Nigamananda This phrase collected from http://absmath.org (Swami Nigamanand's own foundation website) Can it is to be rewritten entirely? Kindly confirm once.

If any thing missed kindly correct me. Dcmpuri (talk) 15:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I have not yet had a closer look at the Foundations section, but that Nigamananda himself found "Shanti Ashram" or Saraswata Matha important is worth remembering because one of the few independent sources, Banglapedia, says the same, quote "However, his greatest achievement was the establishment of the Assam-Bengal Saraswata Math (centre for learning) at Kokilamukh". The "however" is referring to his five books, now featuring in the lead. If you connect this to my opinion above about the last paragraph in the lead, what is your opinion? MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 07:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
As I feel, the article in Banglapedia was written by a person or group had close connection to Nigamananda. After Nigamanananda's death this article was published. Due keeping in mind his death, the word "however" is used. If it is in the lead, we may take this reference out from the article.

Dcmpuri (talk) 05:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply3 and Request[edit]

Hi MarB4 Yoga section is an important aspect of this article. Hence I request you to please incorporate this part in the article. This would be a great contribution to world people. Please excuse me, for your reference just I restored by old backup here. YOGA

My Dear Children ! I have taken charge of your spiritual development and you are to retain a little bit of faith in me and that is enough for you to do. You may rest assure that you need not have to worry further about anything. Everything will be taken care of itself - Swami Nigamananda [1]

Swami Nigamananda had written a great deal on Yoga based on his real experience,which he presented to the world in the form of a book called "Yogi guru".[2] Hatha Yoga and Laya Yoga

Dharana and Dhyan

Sampragyat Samadhi

Trikut

Yoga-Nidra

We are trying to build an encyclopedia and would need an independent source saying that Nigamananda's teachings on this (or that) are notable. Do we have that? That your opinion as a follower of Nigamananda is, that it "is an important aspect of this article" is not enough and is not neutral. Your wish for inclusion of numerous long quotes by Nigamananda because "This would be a great contribution to world people" only tells me that you have not moved an inch since March when you wrote "Can we replace the word "death" with "mahasamadhi" of Swami Nigamananda ?. Otherwise their disciples may ask questions?", but Wikipedia is not a platform for promoting a cause no matter how noble it may be. On a more positive note: you have not been afraid of disclosing your conflict of interest, and I find this honorable. Looking at your contributions they seem to be only related to Nigamananda. Would you like to help with e.g. the article Swami Sathyananda Saraswathi? It has some severe challenges in regard to neutrality. MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 07:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for reply. I am just modifying the yoga section again to be presented neutral point of view. The same will attached to "Philosophy & Teachings " section. I am afraid this article is already too long, am I allowed to do so?
Just I have seen Swami Sathyananda Saraswathi. I will try to have a closer look and rectify same to bring neutrality.
Thanks

Dcmpuri (talk) 05:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Your Q:We are trying to build an encyclopedia and would need an independent source saying that Nigamananda's teachings on this (or that) are notable. Do we have that?
My Ans: We have 3 below books, authored Swami Nigamananda, considered as independent source?
  • Nigamānanda Sarasvati Deva (Svāmī.) (1963). Y0gī guru. Nilachala Sarasvata Sangha.  - ENGLISH
  • Yogi Guru Author: Paramhansa, Nigamananda, West Bengal Public Library Network - BENGALI
  • YogiGuru Author: Swami Nigamananda, Nilachala Saraswata Sangha, Translator Durga Charan Mohanty - ORIYA

Please highlight on this.

Dcmpuri (talk) 11:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi MarB4

Today I have added "Yoga" Section with "independent source". Please check and confirm whether every thing is in order.
Thanks

Dcmpuri (talk) 14:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Reply4:Update Further reading[edit]

Hi MarB4

Today I have updated the Further reading Section. If you feel it is too long we may reduce the references, belongs to non-english. Please suggest. Dcmpuri (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Reduced contents of Article to meet Wikipedia Standard[edit]

Hi

Further reading[edit]

I have remvoed the following part,under Lesson sub-heading, which were belongs to Non-English.

German
Dutch
Serbian
Hungarian

Dcmpuri (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Saraswata Matha[edit]

Reduced 50% content and formatted accordingly. Dcmpuri (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress[edit]

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  1. ^ Nilachal Saraswat Sangh (Purī, India) (2001). Sadguru Swami Nigamananda. Nilachal Saraswat Sangha, Puri. p. 115. Retrieved 14 July 2011. 
  2. ^ a b c d e f Nigamananda (1926). Yogi Guru - 7th ed. (in Bengali). Saraswat Math, Garohill Yogashram. Retrieved 2011-06-08. 
  3. ^ a b c d Shree Shree Thakur Nigamananda-Oriya Jeevani,CHAPTER-"PRACTICE OF YOGA" Writer: Durgacharan Mohanty, Banmali Das, Nilanchala Saraswata Sangha, Puri
  4. ^ Jonn Mumford (1995). A Chakra & Kundalini workbook: psycho-spiritual techniques for health, rejuvenation, psychic powers, and spiritual realization. Llewellyn Worldwide. pp. 73–. ISBN 9781567184730. Retrieved 30 May 2011. 
  5. ^ Arthur Avalon; Sir John George Woodroffe; Pūrṇānanda (1 June 1974). The serpent power: being the Ṣaṭ-cakra-nirūpana and Pādukā-pañcaka: two works on Laya-yoga. Courier Dover Publications. p. 222. ISBN 9780486230580. Retrieved 30 May 2011. 
  6. ^ Jacqueline Koay; Theodora Barenholtz (2010). The Science and Philosophy of Teaching Yoga and Yoga Therapy. Teddi Barenholtz. pp. 9–. ISBN 9780955642340. Retrieved 30 May 2011. 
  7. ^ Thomas Claire (2003). Yoga for Men: Postures for Healthy, Stress-Free Living. Career Press. pp. 38–. ISBN 9781564146656. Retrieved 30 May 2011. 
  8. ^ Cite error: The named reference ReferenceB was invoked but never defined (see the help page).