User talk:Philg88/Archive 1

Su Qin article

Hello! I created the Su Qin article as a stub, with the intention of translating the Chinese article myself. Unfortunately, I never got around to doing the translation, so I'm really glad that someone is actually doing the work. I was wondering if you'd like some help with the process of translating and refining the article? Xinophiliac (talk) 16:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

A couple of things:

• I'm not sure that 乘轩里 can be translated as "Chengxuan School of Buddhism"; I couldn't find any reference to such a school, and it seems to me that it more likely indicates a street name or neighborhood name. What's more interesting is that Baidu Baike has only 轩里. Of course, I could be completely wrong; is there a reason you chose to use "Chengxuan School of Buddhism"?
• 彼此呼应 is an interesting expression; I'm not sure if the English expression "echo each other" adequately captures the meaning of the Chinese one. In this context, the expression implies that, although the two have contradictory goals on the surface, they are in fact involved in a conspiracy where both of them are working toward a mutually-beneficial outcome (much like the many parodies about the relationship between Bush and Saddam Hussein floating around the Chinese internet during the Iraq War). The English expression seems to me to imply more that the two are working toward the same goal on the surface as well. I'm not sure how to translate this in a concise fashion, though.

Overall, your translation is very good (probably better that I would've done), but I'm not particularly sure about these points.Xinophiliac (talk) 17:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Another thing is that the quote attributed to Su Qin in the introduction of the Chinese article is "My wife doesn't recognize me as her husband, my sister-in-law doesn't recognize me as her brother-in-law, and my parents don't recognize me as their son!" The quote you have in the article is probably someone else's description of him. However, that quote is much less verbose and clearer about his predicaments (although the original article doesn't have a source for it), so I'm not sure which one is preferable. Xinophiliac (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Done. Keep up the good work and don't let the GFW get to you (too much). Xinophiliac (talk) 04:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

School of Diplomacy article

Your translation is in general very good; I only have a few minor observations:

• In the second paragraph, Han Fei's quote in the Chinese version ends at "attacking the weak multitude"; the rest of the paragraph is part of the article proper, although written in a rather unencyclopedic style.
• In the last paragraph, rather than "the 13th chapter of Guiguzi", I think it's actually supposed to be "13 chapters of Guiguzi". I used to have a copy of Annals of the Warring States, and I remember that it was more than a chapter long.

...I think that's it. Good work! Xinophiliac (talk) 02:08, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I've removed a lot of the Chinese words and pinyin because there is a link to it, and the linked page should include all that. I've also removed the POV 'excellent stratgists...' as peacock terms should be removed even in a translation. Also, I've tagged the article as unreferenced (because it is :D) Kayau Voting IS evil 03:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

SVG

Looks great. Thank you!!! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:19, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Just to let you know how necessary the image is, here is how much traffic the page gets. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow! Philg88 (talk) 11:31, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Admin

Do you have an administrator or two who you can bug for advice, et cetera? If not, and if you need, I will give you a couple of names of admins who are very helpful and knowledgeable. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

a couple of names would be cool, thanks :) Philg88 (talk) 21:51, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

• User:HJ Mitchell
• User:Dbachmann
• User:JoJan

They are wise and helpful. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Anna Philg88 (talk) 22:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Golf

Golf is a recognised sport. I have reverted the article back to reflect this. The subject has been raised and discussed many times already. Please check the talkpage and its archives for the full details. Regards, _wjemather^bigissue 14:12, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK

Lu Xiufu would make an excellent DYK. Not only might it appear on the Main Page, but it will draw other editors to the article who can improve it. I just submitted Top Secret America. I will submit Lu Xiufu, if that's okay. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Although it might not be accepted because DYK is for articles or expanded within, I think, a week. This was just edited. But we can try. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Of course it's OK despite his murdering the last emperor of the Song Dynasty - it was, after all, an awfully long time ago. Philg88 (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok. I will submit it. Any suggestion for a hook?

• Did you know that...he threw a kid in the sea?
• Did you know that...helped end the Song Dynasty?
• Did you know that...he murdered the last emperor of the Song Dynasty?
• Did you know that...?

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Crap. I think we missed the boat:

"For purposes of DYK, a "new" article is no more than five days old, and may not consist of text spun off from a pre-existing article. Former redirects, stubs, or other short articles in which the prose portion has been expanded fivefold or more within the last five days are also acceptable as "new" articles. The content with which the article has been expanded must be new content, not text copied from other articles."

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, at least we know the rules of DYK now :)

Philg88 (talk) 20:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

A well-deserved barnstar for your user page

Moved to User: Philg88/Barnstars  Philg88 ^♦talk 13:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Chinese Arctic and Antarctic Administration

Hi Philg. Thanks for adding the Chinese/pinyin name. I didn't know how to do that. Cheers! --Rosiestep (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

That would be great! The article is over at DYK Suggestions and the folks there are asking for it to be beefed up, so any assistance would be appreciated, and you'd be included in the DYK credits. Thanks Philg. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Reflinks

Hello. I've been using this. It fixes up the references automatically. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It will turn this into this.

• Paste in the article name
• Click run
• Preview changes
• Save

(If one of the refs is a pdf, before you use reflinks, stick something after the url, like: < ref >Chinesehistory.pdf Chinese History Paper< / ref >)

Very handy. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Anna,

Thanks for the info. Lately I have started using the {{Cite web}} template for any references but this program will help with cleaning up my older articles. Philg88 (talk) 03:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Nice. I couldn't figure out how that citationbot thing works. Do you just stick it in the article, and the bot comes around and does its thing? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:53, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

No, you have to do it manually but the parameters of {{Cite web}} are pretty straightforward and I have seen a bot that will replace <refs> with {{Cite web}}.

Okay. Manual huh? Don't like the sound of that. I did around 100 general articles in about an hour with reflinks. So there! Fooey to citebot. ahahaha :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:52, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Duplicate articles

Hi again. As you know about naming conventions of this sort, could you please advise on the appropriate name?

The two duplicate articles in question are this and this? Thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Never mind. I think the creator has it sorted out. Thanks anyway. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:27, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Chinese inventions... or not.

Do you seriously think this is fine?

The discovery of late Stone Age beer jugs has established the fact that purposely fermented beverages existed in the Ancient Near East (Fertile Crescent) at least as early as c. 10,000 BC. It has been suggested that beer may have preceded bread as a staple. [75] In China, archaeologists have discovered residue of a fermented beverage that was 7,000-years old in pottery jars from the Neolithic site of Jiahu, Henan.

The preamble completely destroys the case for 'fermented beverage' being a Chinese invention. You think its fine to have inventions from other places in the Chinese inventions list? I dont. Mdw0 (talk) 08:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

There is a citation and as far as I can see the addition does no harm. Please feel free to take the issue to the talk page Philg88 (talk) 17:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Chinese Arctic and Antarctic Administration

— Rlevse • Talk • 18:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Reliable or not: Robert K. G. Temple on Chinese and world history

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion on Temple's reliability here. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yue Fei's tattoo

I am currently writing a lengthy review for a book about the stone inscriptions commissioned by the Kaifeng Jews during the Ming and Qing Dynasties. The inscriptions make two allusions to Yue Fei's tattoo. The author believes this is proof that the Jews served in the general's army. I, on the other hand, do not believe their is enough evidence inside and outside the inscriptions to support such a claim. The story of his mother giving him the tattoo comes from his popular 17th century folklore novel. An earlier Ming novel states he commissioned a young man in his village to do it. The History of Song only mentions it in passing and doesn't say when or where he got it. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the the family memoir written by Yue Fei's grandson, Yue Ke. Even if I did, I could not read it fluently as I am still in the early stages of learning Chinese as a college student.

I know you translated the Chinese wikipedia article on the Songshi, but I wasn't sure if you had access to any of the sources the info was derived from. I would like to find out if the tattoo is mentioned in Yue Ke's work so I can trace it back through the Qing, Ming, Yuan, and the Song. I already know that Yue Ke's memoir is riddled with mistakes due to a lack of information (from political intrigue following his grandfather's death) and some filial duty to embellish Yue's heroic image. So there is a good chance Yue Fei never had such a tattoo.

Please let me know if you do have access (online or otherwise) to said work or a work mentioning info from it. I will be sure to thank you in the review for any help you may provide. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 06:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Ghostexorcist, Yue Fei and things associated with him seem to have taken over my most of my efforts on Wikipedia right now! I plan to create Yu Ke's biography article as well as entries for his works 鄂國金佗稡編 and 鄂國金佗續編. I also plan a major expansion of the Yue Fei article itself based on Chinese Wikipedia. As for Yue Fei's tattoo, so far I have come across no mention of it in Chinese sources (in particular the History of Song). If I do you will be the first to know. To satisfy NPOV here, if there is any doubt I will create a section along the lines of "Tattoo controversy" or suchlike in the Yue Fei article. At the moment I want to finish the Battle of Yancheng article; thereafter I will commence work on Yue Ke's stuff and let you know progress. I only have access to online sources as I am in Hainan so any Chinese links that you have that you think might help please post here or email them. All the best. Philg88 ^contact

I am the person who is guilty for the current state of the Yue Fei article. Most of the information I added was spillover from my Zhou Tong (archer) page. Despite its less than stellar quality, the general's article is actually light years better than what it used to be. When I came to it, past editor's had presented 'episodes' from his Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan as historical fact!

This page mentions Yue's tattoo, but it seems to be a reconstruction of some kind (notice the brackets). --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, some preliminary research results. On the Chinese WP page the article text uses the phrase “according to legend”. The cited note says

有關岳飛背後的字是否為其母所刺，到現在還有爭議，北京师范大学历史系教授游彪认为，岳飞母亲姚氏是一农家女，识字的可能性不大，也有人考证说背上刺字是宋朝兵制；不過可以肯定的一點是，岳飛背後的字應是「盡忠報國」而非「精忠報國」(宋史岳飛傳亦有記載)，多數研究認為現今不少人認知的「精忠報國」，應是受到宋高宗御賜「精忠岳飛」四字，並由岳家軍以之為旗幟與金兵作戰的誤導。

A controversy continues to this day as to whether or not Yue Fei’s mother carved the (or a) tattoo on his back. Professor You Biao of Beijing Normal University History Department believes that since Yue Fei’s mother, a descendant of the Yao clan came from a peasant family it is unlikely that she ever learned to write. Other researchers believe that the tattoo was done in conformance with Song Dynasty army regulations. However, one point is certain, the characters on Yue Fei’s back were 「盡忠報國」and not 「精忠報國」according to his biography in the History of Song. Most academics now agree that 「精忠報國」 was a slogan bestowed on Yue Fei’s army by Emperor Gaozong for use on their banners and to mislead the Jin in combat.

Based on the above, the source of all the tattoo information is Yue Ke since that is where the History of Song got its information from. If the part about Yue Fei’s mother being illiterate is true (which I subscribe to), then it certainly casts doubt on if there was a tattoo at all. I need to check in the History of Song whether there is any mention of mandatory tattooing. I am skeptical on this one since as far as I know none of the other Song generals were tattooed as a matter of course.

The link you provided says just says that Yue Fei tore of his shirt when Qin Hui sent men to seize him to prove his innocence. I suspect that the source of the quotes in the text is either the History of Song or one of Yue Ke’s works which are to all intents and purposes the same thing.

Philg88 ^contact 23:52, 19 April 2024 UTC [refresh]

Update - The only reference to Yue Fei's tattoo in the History of Song appears in Chapter 365,

桧遣使捕飞父子证张宪事，使者至，飞笑曰：“皇天后土，可表此心。”初命何铸鞠之，飞裂裳以背示铸，有“尽忠报国”四大字，深入肤理。既而阅实无左验，铸明其无辜。改命万俟禼。禼诬：飞与宪书，令虚申探报以动朝廷，云与宪书，令措置使飞还军；且言其书已焚。 This is the same text as in the external link. This is more about what it doesn't say - there is no mention of his mother doing the tattoo. Philg88 ^contact 23:52, 19 April 2024 UTC [refresh]

Regarding military tattooing, see this thread I created years ago on a Chinese history forum I frequent.

Have you read Hellmut Wilhelm's paper on Yue Fei? It may hold some useful information for you. I transcribed it a while back on the same forum. You can read it here. Wilhelm says it was actually Yue's father who tutored him. I believe the idea of Yue's mother teaching him comes from the Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan. Either way, James T.C. Liu believes "[t]he historical attribution that [Yue] was well educated is dubious at best."

Harold Kaplan wrote a massive 600 page doctoral thesis about Yue Fei called Yueh Fei and the Founding of the Southern Sung. You can buy a pdf of the thesis from UMI Dissertation Services for $37. Since you may not have access to books on Hainan, I figure you could read this on your computer. I bought an unbound hard copy for $44 before they had the pdf option. I had it professionally bound with a cover of my own design (it was based on this picture). Kaplan relied on a great number of sources in the writing of the thesis. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 10:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it's unlikely Yue Fei was "well educated". Many (possibly fictional stories) say that his father was killed when the Yellow River flooded in 1103, the second year of Huizong's 崇宁 era but the History of Song and the Song Huiyao Jigao offer no confirmation that the river flooded in that year.

Xu Mengsheng's 三朝北盟會編 says that when he was young Yue Fei went to work as a farmhand on the estate of Duke Wei of Han (韩魏公) which would preclude him going to school. Yue Fei living on the Han farm is also recorded in Li Jing De's (黎靖德) 朱子语类. As for the tattoo, I'm familiar with the tattooing of criminals on their face or forehead as one of the Five Punishments and I believe it was also done to soldiers for identification and to stop them deserting. However, I can find no record of such tattoos every being done on the back. The whole story is dubious in my opinion - there are just too many questions:

• If Yue Fei's father died when he was a baby how could he have been educated by him?
• If Yue Fei lived on a farm away from home how did his mother tattoo him?
• If his mother was illiterate how did she manage to tattoo him with quite complex Chinese characters?
• Why would the military tattoo Yue Fei on the back rather than follow their normal procedure?

It is possible that Yue Ke created the whole story. He was trying to restore his ancestor's reputation and such a tattoo would certainly help (as history has shown). We will probably never know whether it is true or not. Philg88 ^contact 23:52, 19 April 2024 UTC [refresh]

That is odd concerning his father. Kaplan states:

This promotion [for quelling bandits] made him in effect the equivalent of a commissioned officer, Yueh's career, was however, abruptly interrupted at this point when word was recieved of the death of his father. He promptly resigned his commission and hurried back [home]...where he took up strict morning as though, Yueh K'o states, he had not just won a great victory ... Yueh apparently remained in strict morning for the next year, but by 1123 he appears to have entered the service of the powerful and rich Han clan as a kind of military bodyguard. As noted above, according to some accounts the Yuehs had earlier been tenants of the descendants of Han Ch'i (p. 37).

The noted literary critic C.T. Hsia states: "In Ta-Sung chung-hsing yen-i, Hsiung Ta-mu faithfully follows the official biography (Sung shih, chuan 265) in his treatment of Yueh Fei's birth and boyhood. Thus we find that his father did not die in the flood..." (C.T. Hsia on Chinese Literature, pp. 448, n. 31). It just amazes me how there is so much difference between various sources.

You raise some good points about the tattoo. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

My mistake re the official biographies - see the correction above. Nevertheless, the disparity between sources is irritating to say the least. Philg88 ^contact 23:52, 19 April 2024 UTC [refresh]

I wanted to transcribe a section from a book which talks about the earlier Ming novel that I mentioned above. You can use this information for future reference if you like:

In Ta-Sung [chung-hsing Yueh-wang Chuan] Yueh Fei's loyalty is characterized by the four-character motto tattooed on his back: ching-chung pao-kuo (serve the country with unswerving loyalty). The novelist believes these words were Yueh Fei's motto, as he constantly reminds his readers. Following is three examples of Yue Fei's motto. The novelist first tells about the origin of these words. During the Ching-k'ang period (1126-27), the country was in turmoil caused by invading barbarian forces. The Sung armies were weak and could not stop the enemy, so the barbarians came and went as they pleased, devastating everything in their way. The country was disrupted and disorder prevailed. As a result, many strong and venturesome men joined bandits in the mountains. In Yueh Fei's village there was also talk of escape to the mountains to joine the bandits. But Yue Fei stoppped this talk, according to the novel, by asking someone to tattoo his motto, the four-character ching-chung pao-kuo, on his back:

During Ching-k'ang period, the nomads on horseback [who invaded the country] were everywhere. The Sung soldiers flinched from the enemy and scattered. In the village some strong and venturesome men came to consult Yueh Fei [on what to do about the dangerous situation]. They suggested that they could all escape to the mountains to join the bandits. Fei was appalled at the suggestion. he told them: "it is unthinkable that a soldierly man does not wish to leave a good name in history but wants to be a thief and robber and lead a wrongful life." To show his determination not to follow the evil path of life, he asked someone to tattoo four big characters on his back: ching-chung pao-kuo. Hereafter, whenever people came to ask him [to join the bandits], he showed them the tattoo on his back. As a result, most of the strong and venturesome men [in his village] did not joint the bandits.

(Chang, Shelley Hsueh-lun. History and Legend: Ideas and Images in the Ming Historical Novels. University of Michigan Press, 1990, pp. 103-104)

The author goes on to detail two other mentions of the tattoo in the Ming era novel, but I am primarily interested in the proposed fictional origins. It's obvious there wasn't enough historical information from ancient records, so later authors just elaborated on the story. The culmination of the story is his mother giving him the tattoo. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info Ghostexorcist. I will definitely use it when I get around to revising and expanding the Yue Fei article. On that note, I'm thinking of proposing a split of the Yue Fei article into three of more separate articles - Yue Fei, Yue Fei in fiction and Yue Fei's military career (Chinese Wiki has a huge amount of stuff on the last one). I now have some of the source documents (in Chinese) including the relevant parts from History of Song so there is a lot of translation work to do. Best Philg88 ^contact 23:52, 19 April 2024 UTC [refresh]

No problem. I actually wanted to split up Yue's article in that fashion at some point when I found the time. I planned on following the same format as the Guandi page. I did this for my Zhou Tong article and got it up to FA status. If I can get a page for such an obscure historical figure like Zhou Tong to FA, with all the info that is available, you should have no problem doing the same for Yue Fei. I wish you the best of luck. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

As soon as I finish the Battle of Yancheng :) Philg88 ^contact 23:52, 19 April 2024 UTC [refresh]

DYK nomination of History of Song

Hello, your nomination of History of Song at DYK was reviewed and comments provided. --NortyNort (Holla) 10:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)