Talk:Hezbollah

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Support of Hezbollah banned from User space?

Offtopic, I know, but I imagine someone who has this on their watchlist might have an opinion to offer here. -- Kendrick7^talk 05:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow. How utterly stupid. --mceder (u t c) 18:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I am planning to appeal this. I have asked for some help from an administrator here. I don't believe a final decision was ever reached in this discussion, despite repeated blocks by admins who expressed. There are political views expressed in many user boxes. The fact that some people may disagree with such views, or find such views offensive is subjective and user boxes should be not be permanently removed without serious debate and solid evidence. If wikipedia allows some it should allow all (that are not banned for other reasons - like making explicit threats or libel). Otherwise it will appear biased in violation of NPOV. If others have expertise in appealing matters like this, help would be appreciated.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The use of a category for those wikipedians who support Hezbollah was discussed here.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 14:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Alternate spellings

The spelling Hezbollah semms to be the most commonly used variant. However, the article mentions other anglicizaitons in a footnote. I personally believe that the alternate spellings should be actually in the writing of the article as in the al-Qaeda article. Asphatasawhale (talk) 07:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree.Bless sins (talk) 20:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Another note regarding translations. It is fine to title this page as it is, "Hezbollah". It is standard practice in Middle Eastern and Islamic studies to use popular English spellings of terms when they are well known. However, I would take issue with the attempt made at a proper English transliteration currently in the first line of the text of this entry, which transliterates the name of the party as "hizba'llah". There are better choices. According to the prevailing American and UK transliteration methods of universities and research institutions, when this party is menioned by itself, the best choices for transliteration (without microns and diacritics) are (1) Hizb Allah, (2) Hizbu'llah, (3) Hizbullah. The main problem with the article's current attempt at a translitertaion is this: "hizba'llah" is a usage of the term in the accustative case. We commonly say "hizballah" like this in our speech, in the accustative case, because the term appears in the accustative case in the Quranic verse where it originated. Also, in common speech, Arabs don't case their words, so they do often say "hizbAllah", which is acceptable in everyday speech. However, when in a scientific setting (i.e., in writing) we reference a term in Arabic on its own, abstracted from any syntatical function in a sentence or poetic verse, the accepted practice is to use that term in the nominative case, which would be reflected in choices 2 and 3 above. Choice 1 is also acceptable because it reflects no case ending at all: this is preferable, according to conventional transliteration practice, to writing the term in the accusative. As support for my argument, Library of Congress and other authoritative sources (e.g., International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies) insist on the transliteration "Hizb Allah", when transliterating Arabic-language book titles. Drphil500 (talk) 14:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Amal Saad-Ghorayeb quote dubious

This also applies to same citation used in the Ideology of Hezbollah article.

Can anyone please find a source to verify this quotation? Per GHcool's recent edits (based, I suspect, on his reserving the book at his local library that he recently mentioned), this quotation has a footnote identifying a Muhammad Fneish. The problem is this footnote and quotation have been brought into question by Charles Glass:

The source of the quotation is cited in footnote 20 of Chapter 8 of Saad-Ghorayeb’s book: an interview, not with Nasrallah, but with a Hizbullah member of the Lebanese Parliament, Mohammed Fnaysh, conducted by the author on 15 August 1997. Saad-Ghorayeb informs me that the footnote is a mistake, although she is certain there is a valid source for the statement. However, when at my request she examined her PhD dissertation, from which the book originated, she discovered the same mistaken citation. Footnotes in a long work can easily go astray, but it is unfortunate that neither her dissertation adviser nor her publishers spotted the error. Therefore, until someone discovers where and when Nasrallah uttered the words above, the case is unproved.[1]

I would seriously question the quotations inclusion unless we can find something to verify the statement as belonging to Nasrallah, instead of Muhammad Fneish. ← George ^[talk] 05:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This hardly matters given the amount of literature and quotations proving that Hezbollah does not differentiate between their hatred of Zionists, Israelis, and Jews, but are you accusing Saad-Ghorayeb of lying? --GHcool (talk) 07:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm asking for a verification of a controversial quotation whose attribution has come into question, from a source I'm unfamiliar with, attributed to one person here on Wikipedia, but apparently someone else in the sources itself, which may constitute a violation of policy. I have zero interest in lies or truths, as I'll remind the editor that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth," and "the burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia... rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material." ← George ^[talk] 10:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, I misunderstood George's intent. I thought he was talking about the "If we searched ..." quote. He (and Glass) appears to be talking about the "if [Jews] all gather ..." quote. Since Glass does not appear to have a problem with the "If we searched ..." quote, then I guess it stays. Since Glass does appear to have a problem with the "if [Jews] all gather ..." quote, then the quote stays along with Glass's reservations. --GHcool (talk) 16:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm talking about the quote: "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, we do not say the Israeli," which is the one Glass identifies as cited by Saad-Ghorayeb to someone other than Nasrallah. ← George ^[talk] 19:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

@George - I'm not sure if I can fully understand what's going on here, but it appears that this clip is unreliable. If there are other sources that can provide the same thing, then by all means they should be put in. But in the meantime, this particular one should come out. PR^talk 17:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Nope. At this point, it should stay in since its one man's word against another (actually, the other is a woman, but I digress). Right now we have both sides and that's fine. --GHcool (talk) 17:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually no, as the quotation is being attributed to a living person, it should be deleted unless verified. As I haven't laid my hands on this book yet to verify Glass' claim, I have not done so yet. I suspect there is confusion over which quotation is. The quotation in question is: "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, we do not say the Israeli." ← George ^[talk] 19:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to verify all you want, but at this point, we have a quote that was found in a reliable source. I offered to find the book Jeffrey Goldberg cites in his article. I did. The book says the same thing. My work here is done.

Also, if Charles Glass believes that Elvis Presley is alive, feel free to put his opinion in the article on Elvis Presley. In fact, feel free to ask for verification that Elvis is dead on Talk:Elvis Presley. --GHcool (talk) 23:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If possible, perhaps you could scan the page in the book where this quote is, as well as the page where the footnote for this quote is (if it's on a different page), and post them online somewhere so that editors can try to review it, and we can get a better sense of the issue at hand.

I'm unable to verify the quotation, which is why I'm requesting help to do so. If no one is able to verify that Nasrallah made the statement, then it will be removed. Unlike Elvis Presley, Hassan Nasrallah is a living person, and under Wikipedia policy, living people are afforded extra protections in "any material related to living persons on any page in any namespace." In fact, strictly speaking, this statement should have been removed immediately, however I'm trying to avoid an edit war by first asking for some verification of it. Policy also requires the use of "high-quality reliable soruces" when adding "apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources," or "a statement by someone that seems... controversial," which this statement does. This being the first book published by an author, based on their dissertation, and based on the apparent questioning of the reliability of the source by another reliable source, and based on the fact that another reliable source has stated this this source was unable to find the original source of the citation, I am far from convinced that this constitutes a "high-quality" reliable source. It must be verified, or it will be removed. ← George ^[talk] 02:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to scan the page and post it somewhere. I'll scan it tomorrow, but where shall I post it? --GHcool (talk) 07:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe here on Wikipedia/Wikimedia? It might get taken down for copyright violation or something (or it may fall under fair use; I'm not a copyright expert). Or you could try one of the free image hosting websites, like this one. Thanks! ← George ^[talk] 09:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the hyperlink, George. Here's pg. 170 of Saad-Ghorayeb's book and here are the relevant footnotes. I hope this helps. --GHcool (talk) 16:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks much for taking the time to do this; it's a great help. I notice that the book passage itself directly attributes the quotation to Nasrallah, while the footnote references Fneish. Given the direct quotation in the passage itself (which is what I was interested to see), I'm not going to remove this quote, but it will still need to be properly framed with Glass' concerns of the footnote inconsistency. That's not to say that other with a more strict interpretation of WP:BLP won't remove it, or that they're not right to do so, it just means that I won't remove it at the moment. Cheers. ← George ^[talk] 02:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I respect and appreciate your position. I sincerely mean that. Thank you. --GHcool (talk) 06:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added a line noting Glass' questions about the attribution of the quotation. ← George ^[talk] 08:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

This woman appears to be a something of a specialist, and perhaps the best possible source for the real thinking of Hezbollah. But we're using the source in a very odd way. The last sentence that User:GHcool has kindly provided us with reads: "As central an intellectual construct as Hizbu'llah's anti-Judaism is, however, one cannot conclude that this renders it an anti-Semitic ...." (bottom of page 171).

So are are we to understand that Nasrullah is antisemitic but Hezbollah is not? Or are we to suppose that this particular allegation of Nasrullah's antisemitism is based on a mis-cited quote? The quote seems to be unreliable, and we would now have to classify it as "surprising", perhaps "controversial". Perhaps GHcool (if he still has the book out of the library) could put up the next page for us. PR^talk 17:12, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Questioned edit

This edit is unjustified. Ehud Barak (a former head of Israel) is a notable opinion, the Jerusalem Post is a reliable source, and the statement is clearly relevant to Hizbullah.Bless sins (talk) 06:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

So, I presume editors agree with the inclusion of the material?Bless sins (talk) 18:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Bless sins's presumption is incorrect. Although Jerusalem Post is a reliable source, Ehud Barak's opinion on Hezbollah is largely irrelevant to a general understanding of the group. If we start including every world leader's personal opinion on Hezbollah in the lead of the article, then the lead will quickly become unwieldily. In short, the proposal is in violation of WP:Undue weight and, to some extent, WP:Relevance. --GHcool (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Surely Ehud Barak is more notable (and relevant) than Alberto Nisman and Marcelo Martinez Burgos, whose opinions we include unreservedly?Bless sins (talk) 20:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, the Argentine lawyers are not included in the lead. Secondly, the Argentine lawyers' opinions are relevant and given due weight within the section they are under. --GHcool (talk) 22:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The quote should be included, but not in the lead. ← George ^[talk] 07:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I've moved it to the Background section. ← George ^[talk] 08:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Apparently GHcool feels quite strongly that this quote should be removed, as he's done so twice. In order to avoid an edit war, I'd like to invite him and others to discuss where this best fits in. Background section? View of Hezbollah by others? ← George ^[talk] 08:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's a notable and interesting quote and is relevant to the article. As to where it should go, I'd say into Background, since it's the view of an Israeli political and military leader as to where the group came from and why it exists, as opposed to a comment on the group itself and where it is now (as most of the quotes in the Outside Views section are). Note I also amended the lead (relying on the existing cited source) to better reflect the group's original starting point. --Nickhh (talk) 09:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

If it belongs anywhere, it belongs in the "Background" section, but I argue that it doesn't belong anywhere for two reasons:

1. If we include one pithy statement of opinion form one notable personality, the door opens to more. I imagine the article to become sloppy with everybody's opinion kind of mashed together. Something along the lines of "Ehud Barak says X about Hezbollah, but Jacques Chirac says Y about Hezbollah. Bill Clinton agrees with Chirac, but adds Z, which Tony Blair disagrees with." etc etc.
2. One of the recommendations below on how to keep our GA status, is that "Single sentences shouldn't stand alone." I think the best way to deal with this single sentence is to just delete it for the reason stated above. --GHcool (talk) 17:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Barak is the Israeli defense minister, which makes his opinion much more relevant than most opinions by largely uninvolved politicians. FunkMonk (talk) 17:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Funkmonk, you're right. Perhaps a better course of action is to expand Barak's opinion. But to leave it be one sentence kind of sticking out of nowhere is not the best solution. --GHcool (talk) 17:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

One thing I'm not clear on is why Hezbollah being founded in response to Israel's invasion has been left out of this article:

"Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation." – BBC News – Who are Hezbollah?

"In June 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon and sided with one of the war’s Christian factions over the many other, mostly Muslim, factions... Largely in response to Israel’s invasion, a group of Shia Muslim clerics led by Muhammad Husayn Fadlallah established Hezbollah to promote Islam and resist Western influences in Lebanon." – Encarta – Hezbollah

"Formed in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, this Lebanon-based radical Shia group takes its ideological inspiration from the Iranian revolution and the teachings of the late Ayatollah Khomeini." – GlobalSecurity.org – Hizballah (Party of God)

"...the Lebanese Islamist Shi'ite group was set up in 1982 to resist Israeli occupation of Lebanon during the brutal civil war. The group declared a political existence in 1985." – Asia Times – Hezbollah's transformation

It seems pretty clear that the general consensus is that Hezbollah was created not just after Israel's invasion, but in response to Israel's invasion (and subsequent occupation), which is the gist of Barak's statement. Is there any reason that this has been left out of the article? ← George ^[talk] 18:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and been bold, and modified the wording in the lead to reflect that used in these sources. ← George ^[talk] 02:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Clarification needed

This source is used for the statement:

Hezbollah is regarded as a legitimate resistance movement throughout much of Lebanese society and the Arab and Muslim world, with an emphasis on "calls for the destruction of Israel."

I don't such a statement in the article. Secondly, can someone justify why an editorial by CAMERA is an authority on the attitudes in the Muslim world.Bless sins (talk) 06:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Bless sins, you are right to some extent. I searched the article for the phrase "calls for the destruction of Israel" and could not find it. Therefore, I'm going to delete the statement in the Wikipedia article. However, this Boston Globe article is not an editorial by CAMERA; rather, it is an editorial printed in The Boston Globe. --GHcool (talk) 17:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Right. You should know that Hamas has also printed an editorial in the LA Times. Letters to editor by random people are also routinely published in most mainstream newspapers. Ultimately, when it comes to the editorial, we generally look at the author and not the publisher.Bless sins (talk) 18:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

In general, we should do a better job looking for sources of statements before removing them outright, or at least consider tagging them with {{fact}} when appropriate. This quotation comes from this site, which states that "throughout most of the Arab and Muslim worlds, Hezbollah is highly regarded as a legitimate resistance movement." This source is already cited in this very article, and it's the fifth or sixth result for a Google search of "Hezbollah legitimate resistance movement". We should dig a little deeper next time before deleting statements. I've re-added it, with the appropriate citation. ← George ^[talk] 08:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: On Hold

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Culture and Society" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. To keep tabs on your progress so far, either strike through the completed tasks or put checks next to them.

Needs inline citations:

1. "Many Hezbollah leaders have maintained that the movement was "not an organization, for its members carry no cards and bear no specific responsibilities,"[76] and that the movement does not have "a clearly defined organizational structure."" Not sure if this second quote is from the initial source, add an inline citation if it is not.

   I think this paragraph is fit to the earlier years of Hezbollah's activity. But today it has defined organizational structure and many of its members have official identification cards or something like that. However this issue may be hidden due to the security concerns.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

2. "Hezbollah's leaders have appealed to him "for guidance and directives in cases when Hezbollah's collective leadership [was] too divided over issues and fail[ed] to reach a consensus.""

   I thik the source is at the end of the paragraph.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

3. "Hezbollah operates a satellite television station, Al-Manar TV ("the Lighthouse"), a radio station al-Nour ("the Light"), and a monthly magazine "Bakeyato Allah" ("The Rest of God [Imam-Mahdi]")." Y

Other issues:

1. "Hezbullah[who?] claims to neither discriminate against the Jews as a religion nor as a race." Address the tag. Y

   I think the tag is useless. I removed it but somebody reverted the tag. It's clear that according to Joseph Alagha, Hezbollah as an organization claims...--Seyyed(t-c) 12:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

   In that case, the sentence is redundant with the sentence directly following it. I'm deleting it. --GHcool (talk) 22:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

2. For the section "Accusations of terrorism, bomb attacks, and kidnappings" see if the list can be fleshed out more and rewrite some of the sentences.

   This issue is complicated and there isn't consensus about it. Please read here[2]. --Seyyed(t-c) 09:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

3. "In addition, Hezbollah's television station Al-Manar airs programming designed to inspire suicide attacks in Gaza, the West Bank and Iraq." Single sentences shouldn't stand alone. Expand on this if possible, or merge into another paragraph. Fix any other occurrences within the article, as there are currently several. Y
4. Image:Al-Manar logo.png, this image does not have a fair use rationale specifying this article, be sure to add on to the image's page for use in this article. Y
5. There are numerous external links, determine if some of them can be removed. Y

   Is this a criteria for GA article?--Seyyed(t-c) 12:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

   There is no specific criteria focusing on external links, however as part of the manual of style, the article should follow the guidelines when possible. WP:EL stresses not including a a large number of links. I'm not suggesting removing them just to do so, but I think the knowledgeable editors of the articles can probably weed out a few. If you guys can't find any, then I wouldn't worry about it. There may be some external links that cover the same information as some other more comprehensive links. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 18:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

   I moved some of them to sub-articles such as Hezbollah military activities and Hezbollah political activities. I think the other ones are necessary. --Seyyed(t-c) 03:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

6. If possible, see if there are a few more images that can be added to the article. Y

This article covers the topic well and if the above issues are addressed, I believe the article can remain a GA. I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed, one may be given. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with the related WikiProject so that the workload can be shared. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 09:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I removed the logo and found few pictures in wikicommons and added them. --Seyyed(t-c) 12:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC).--Seyyed(t-c) 12:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Pass

I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. Altogether the article is well-written and looks good after addressing the above issues. Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. Make sure an inline citation is added for "More recently, Hezbollah has been accused of the January 15, 2008, bombing of a U.S. Embassy vehicle in Beirut." If you can't find one remove it for now, until one can be found later. It would also be beneficial to go through the article and update all of the access dates of the inline citations and fix any dead links. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 06:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

English translation of a line from Hezbollah's manifesto

Does anybody have a source saying that the "the original English translation" of Hezbollah's 1985 manifesto does not contain the line state, "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated?" If not, I'm going to delete the claim that it does not. --GHcool (talk) 17:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The source (Stand With Us) seems very biased. Maybe we should search for others. FunkMonk (talk) 17:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

My memory of this discussion is that this document couldn't be described as the Hezbollah Constitution, we couldn't trust the translation and/or the the source of it, and the author didn't appear to have any significant part in the movement now. In 1985 Hezbollah was new and fighting an occupation. While Hezbollah still has elements of a militia, it's now much more of a movement, it's more significant and likely completely different from what it was then. I can't explain why Hezbollah doesn't have a Constitution, but then Israel doesn't have one either. PR^talk 17:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Added a source (the same one that is currently cited in the article for the manifesto itself). I think I initially wrote this line, and misinterpreted it... it's not the original English translation - it could be, but that's not explicitly stated in the source - it's the first publication of the manifesto. Stand With Us is definitely a very pro-Israeli source... perhaps we should look for the original version of the manifesto from the Jerusalem Post? ← George ^[talk] 17:27, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, apparently it wasn't the Jerusalem Post, it was "The Jerusalem Quarterly, number Forty-Eight, Fall 1988". Unfortuntely, that publisher may not exist any more (or at least a quick Google search shows an organization by the same name that wasn't founded until the mid to late 1990s), and I can't find any source for their original publication. My require some periodicals diving at the library. ← George ^[talk] 17:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• If a proper source can't be found, it should be removed from the article. FunkMonk (talk) 17:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Removing source

I'm removing this source from the article. The article is an opinion piece, and the author is a senior at Stanford University, majoring in Economics and Management Science and Engineering, obviously failing WP:RS as they are about as credible as any other random person. See here for further details. ← George ^[talk] 19:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Pape's book "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism"

Does anyone have access to this book? There are a few claims we've cited from it that are difficult to verify:

• 41 Hezbollah suicide attackers killed 659 people - I'm not able to get anywhere near to 659 people killed by Hezbollah during these years... am I missing some attacks?

Like the citation said before you deleted it, it's on page 129. An appendix at the back of the book lists three different campaigns of bombing by Hezbollah (yes the name Hezbollah is used). --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• including 241 US Marines as they slept - This is already included in this list a couple bullet points earlier, under the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing. It shouldn't be included twice in the list.
• Robert Pape details 38 of the bombers as 8 Muslim, 27 Communists/Socialists and 3 Christian - This seems like an extraordinary claim to me. Are there any known Christian members of Hezbollah? I'm aware of Christian allies of Hezbollah, but I can't find anything to verify that there are Chrisitan members of Hezbollah, let alone Christian suicide bomber members of Hezbollah. And who are the 27 Communists/Socialists in the Islamist/Fascist Hezbollah? This sounds to me more like lumping together suicide bombers from every sect in Lebanon under the flag "Hezbollah".

"I spent a year leading a team of researchers who collected detailed evidence on the ideological and other demographic characteristics of the suicide terrorists. The results show that at least 30 of the 41 attackers do not fit the descripton of Islamic fundamentalism ..." p.130 of Dying to Win The book does not go one to say whether the attackers were members of Communist or socialists parties, let alone acting under orders of such organizations, just that they were Communists or Socialists. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• The above also leads me to question the initial "41 Hezbollah suicide attackers". First, the number obviously doesn't match with the 38 people broken down by religion/political view. Second, the other source in the article, an interview with Pape on the same book, doesn't even mention Hezbollah once, let alone in relation to these attacks:

"In Lebanon, for instance, there were 41 suicide-terrorist attacks from 1982 to 1986, and after the U.S. withdrew its forces, France withdrew its forces, and then Israel withdrew to just that six-mile buffer zone of Lebanon, they virtually ceased. They didn’t completely stop, but there was no campaign of suicide terrorism. Once Israel withdrew from the vast bulk of Lebanese territory, the suicide terrorists did not follow Israel to Tel Aviv."

How did 38 suicide bombers commit 41 suicide attacks? Do-overs??

Sometimes suicide attacks have more than one person involved. Didn't read very carefully. Pipes talks about 36 attacks and 41 attackers. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

How did the 41 suicide attacks in Lebanon get attributed to Hezbollah when a minority of the attackers were Islamist Muslims?

Could it be that Hezbollah organized the attacks but not all the attacker were members of the organization? --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

And who were the 659 people killed by these attacks? I'm hoping someone with access to this book can help us out here, because I'm having a hard time verifying any of this. ← George ^[talk] 19:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The people killed were American and French soldiers, American embassy staff, IDF members and bystanders, SLA members and bystanders. Dying to Win p.253-4 The first campaign against American embassies and MNF killed 393, the other two campaigns had fewer deaths and less bloody bombings. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• I doubt it's even from the book, just editors adding stuff along the way. FunkMonk (talk) 20:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I think there's some confusion here, between Hezbollah attacks and those perpetrated by others. The maths and the sectarian/religious identities make this pretty clear. From anything I've ever read about what Pape has written on this subject, the point he's consistently (and probably accurately) tried to make is that suicide attacks are not the preserve of evil Muslim fanatics, but a tactic employed by all sorts of groups. --Nickhh (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The total number of victims of suicide attacks in Lebanon is not given in the 2005 The American Conservative article, and "659 people killed" sounds very high. As a "surprising" result, unless someone can confirm it from the book, I'd support taking it out. Otherwise, the information queried here is the same as in the AmConMag. Robert Pape's research conclusion is that "overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland." Pape claims that this is true for over 95 percent of the incidents. The discrepancy between 41 bombers and 38 religious associations confirmed is trivial. PR^talk 21:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't have as much an issue with the 41 bombers vs. 38 bombers as I do with the lack of any mention of Hezbollah in the American Conservative article. I'm more trying to verify that these 41 bombers were members of Hezbollah, since that's the topic of this article.

Nickhh's point is a good one. In the reviews I've read of this book, the general theme seems to be that the suicide bombers in Lebanon were not specifically Islamists, and were focused more on expelling outside forces from Lebanon than on any specific religious ideologies or hatred. Essentially it sounds like Pape is arguing that nationalism trumps religious extremism in the case of Lebanon in the mid-80s. However, that theme seems to be completely dropped in the way these figures are being cited in this article. ← George ^[talk] 22:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have been bold and changed the passage, it now reads: "#Between 1982 and 1986, 41 suicide attacks were made in Lebanon against western targets. However, only 8 of these bombings were carried out by Islamic fundamentalists, with 27 by Communists/Socialists and 3 by Christians.[5] See Robert Pape's book.[6]"

But I've done it in defiance of this article that says they were all carried by Hezbollah (well-regarded magazine, long editted by the new Mayor of London, Boris Johnson): "... Until the Iraq war, more such bombings were committed by the Tamil Tigers, a Marxist-Leninist group of mainly Hindu background that is hostile to religion in all its forms, than by any other organisation. The Hezbollah campaign against French, American and Israeli targets in Lebanon in the early Eighties included over 40 suicide attacks. Members of secular leftist groups such as the Communist party were responsible for the majority of the bombings. Several were committed by Christians, one of them a female high-school teacher. It is safe to assume she was not looking forward to paradise in the company of a host of virgins. While terror of the sort that currently threatens us in Britain is Islamist in origin, it is nonsense to suggest that suicide bombing reflects an Islamic culture of martyrdom."

I trust all will find this acceptable. PR^talk 07:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I've rewritten this list as a couple paragraphs, while trying to keep the original data. It still needs a bit more information (especially around the controversy of responsibility between Islamic Jihad, Amal, and Hezbollah). ← George ^[talk] 11:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Apologies, I made a bit of a mess with this section earlier on by removing the breakdown, while keeping in the - misquoted - total figure of 41 Hezbollah bombers. I'd merely assumed that this number was an accurate representation of the Pape source, when of course it wasn't. Anyway, that left it the wrong way round, and the section seems to be better now. As for The Spectator article, I'd simply make the observation that the author is very much a philosopher and "big picture" theory person - I'd be wary of relying on his writings for specific figures like this, even if it's in a mainstream magazine with presumably quite stringent editorial oversight. In fact what he's written there contradicts itself in the way that this article used to (ie talking about 40/41 "Hezbollah" attacks, then going on to suggest some of them were committed by bombers from secular leftist groups or Christians). Maybe someone at The Spectator was even using Wikipedia as a source .. --Nickhh (talk) 11:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There is controversy about suicide attacks which have happened before 1985, when Hezbollah is established officially. There were several Palestinian and Lebanese groups in these years which were participating in these attacks.[3] If we use archaeologists and ethnologists terms, we can consider them as proto-Hezbollah groups. In conclusion, the number of suicide attacks and its casualties depend on the viewpoint about the beginning of Hezbollah and this issue should be clarified in the article.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I have checked the book Dying to Win. It does say 659 people killed in Hezbollah suicide attacks. It does use the name Hezbollah. It does list dates, weapons, targets and numbers killed for each attacks in its Appendix I. (Dying to Win p.253-4) It does not give details on who was killed (whether targets or bystanders, what the citizenship of the victims was and so on). (See reply postings above.)

Therefore I am going to restore at least much of the old section. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

We should clarify that this statistics depends on the authors definition of Hezbollah and its foundation date. I think he's considered some other groups such as Islamic Jihad, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth and the Revolutionary Justice Organization as Hezbollah.--Seyyed(t-c) 04:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Every source I've read considers Islamic Jihad, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth and the Revolutionary Justice Organization nonexistent, simply nom de guerre for Hezbollah. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

(de-indenting) So I've been able to find a few pages from this book, and there are a few issues:

• The book actually lists the attacks as 36 attacks by 41 attackers. This was what was confusing me - we had 41 attacks by 38 attackers.
• It describes Hezbollah as a "loose federation of militant Shia groups that sprang up in the early 1980s... evolved from a reorientation of a number of pre-existing social groups in Lebanon... the Mussawai faction within Amal, the Lebanese Da'wa Party, the Association of Muslim Ulama in Lebanon, and the Association of Muslim Students, [which] all existed in the 1970s." Essentially the author is defining any suicide attack by many different groups in Lebanon in this period (including those Sa.vakilian mentioned above) as an act by Hezbollah. We're going to need to include much more on the dispute of this categorization, given that the groups claiming responsibility had these different names at the time, and Hezbollh denied committing them.
• We're also going to have to be extremely careful with the wording here. Going through these attacks, most of them were attacks on IDF targets or SLA outposts (a Lebanese militia allied with Israel during the civil war), while the rest were attacks on U.S. and French barracks, and the U.S. embassy. It's going to be a stretch to define most of these attacks as terrorism, since most of them were against military targets of foreign aggressors (or their allies) on Lebanese soil.

I'm going to change the 41 attacks to 36 attacks for now. ← George ^[talk] 04:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, attacks on military such as IDF and SLA are not usually considered terrorism. Papes says: Altogether, these attacks killed 659 people, most of whom were off duty soldiers in no position to defend themselves, such as the 241 US Marines who were killed as they slept on that fateful day in Beirut. (p.129)

I should have caught the mistake that Pipes talks about 36 attacks and 41 attackers, not 36 attackers and 41 attacks.--BoogaLouie (talk) 15:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Background → History

I tried to turn background into history on the basis of the last peer review I moved some parts of the background to Designation as a terrorist organization or resistance movement and added some information about its foundation. However, I think we should rewrite this part to coverage all of the related issues briefly.--Seyyed(t-c) 13:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Jeff Goldblum's response regarding Independence Day

The article currently mentions Hezbollah's quotation on the movie Independence Day, as well as Jeff Goldblum's reaction to it: "In 1996, Hezbollah called on Muslims to boycott the movie Independence Day, calling it 'propaganda for the so-called genius of the Jews and their alleged concern for humanity.' In the movie, a Jewish scientist played by Jeff Goldblum helps save the world from an alien invasion. Goldblum replied that 'Hezbollah has missed the point: the film is not about American Jews saving the world; it's about teamwork among people of different religions and nationalities to defeat a common enemy.' Hezbollah's anti-Jewish crusade, Goldblum added, 'does not sit well with me.'" I've removed the last two sentences from this quotation before, but they've been reinserted, so I'd like to discuss my reasoning. I'm okay with the third sentence, involving Goldblum's view of the movie. I removed it previously because it seemed like quite a lengthy description of something which isn't in dispute, but I don't oppose its inclusion. The last sentence, however, I have more of an issue with.

Jeff Goldblum is an actor, not a scholar, journalist, author, or anything which would constitute a reliable source on history, Hezbollah, or the Middle East conflict. The only thing he could be considered a reliable source for would be the the films he's acted in, which is why I don't oppose his quotation in the third sentence above regarding the film. However, the last sentence, "Hezbollah's anti-Jewish crusade, Goldblum added, 'does not sit well with me'," has a problem. First, Goldblum isn't a reliable source for defining Hezbollah's actions as an "anti-Jewish crusade." Second, even if everyone agreed that Hezbollah was on an "anti-Jewish crusade," why does Goldblum's opinion on the subject matter? Again, he's not a historian, just an actor, so his opinion should have no bearing on things outside of his films. I'd like to see this sentence removed as Jeff Goldblum doesn't constitute a reliable source on Hezbollah or its (alleged) anti-Jewish crusade. Thoughts? ← George ^[talk] 21:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I propose moving less important information of this section to Hezbollah Ideology.--Seyyed(t-c) 04:25, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree, the last sentence is irrelevant. FunkMonk (talk) 05:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "pape" :
  • {{cite book |last=Pape |first=Robert |authorlink=Robert Pape |title=Dying to win: the strategic logic of suicide terrorism |loc=New York |publisher=Random House |id=ISBN 1-4000-6317-5 |year=2005 }} Specifically: "Suicide Terrorist Campaigns, 1980-2003", Appendix 1. (Page 253 of Australian paperback edition, published by Scribe Publications)
  • Pape, Robert A., ''Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism'', Random House, 2005.

DumZiBoT (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed this, by making the second instance just another reference of the first instance. ← George ^[talk] 19:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Internal Criticism of Hezbollah

Hello,

I believe the article is lacking with regards to internal opposition to hezbollah, in particular friction with the March 14 alliance, Accusations by Mufti Ali Jozu and the Free Shia movement. If there are no a-priori objections, i intend to work on such a section and present a rough draft for inclusion in this talk page. MiS-Saath (talk) 09:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• Criticism sections are not recommended on Wikipedia. Criticism/controversy should be worked into the article itself, not thrown into one section. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Criticism-section FunkMonk (talk) 13:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems like the right place to add this information is 'Political activity', although that would need a better title since it's not hezbollah activity that these aspects should cover. perhaps retitle the section 'In the lebanese political arena'? something along the lines of 'Hezbollah, together with Amal, represent the majority of lebanese shia, contested almost solely by the Free Shia movement' and so forth. what do you think? MiS-Saath (talk) 14:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, as long as it is cited. FunkMonk (talk) 14:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, i'm not so sure they're notable enough. at least as far as english sources go, there isn't much. but then again, same could be said about Ali Jozu, but he is rather notable. MiS-Saath (talk) 14:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

As the last peer review shows What this article really lacks of is the Lebanese views of Hezb and how it evolved, and this applies to each community. How it was seen by Shiites, how it was rejected by Christians, then gained support after Hezb-Aoun alliance, how the druze and sunnite community was supportive before March 14...--Seyyed(t-c) 05:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Shortening the Military activities

I think the article is too long and there is overemphasis on Military activities. It includes too many details which can move to sub-articles.--Seyyed(t-c) 06:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The conflict with Israel sections have been covered in much greater detail in other articles. --GHcool (talk) 19:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Lengthening the article

The article needs a section on Israeli threats...to match the two sections on Hezbollah threats so that NPOV is maintained....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 21:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Um ... what are the two sections on Hezbollah threats are you referring to? I don't see any. I think Hezbollah's conflict with Israel is fairly well covered in the "Conflict with Israel" section, although I would prefer that section be deleted since that stuff is better covered in the main articles about those topics. --GHcool (talk) 21:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Cancer quotes, what you think and reality are obviously somewhat different...NPOV means putting all the arguments...You have the Hezbollah says sections but no section on what Israel and the west say about Hezbollah... so I've put them back in as they belong together....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 08:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC) I've put all the POV under one section. You leave the Israeli POV in and I'll add to the Hizb'allah POV....Oh and try not to claim you did something when you didn't as in claiming you moved sourced material to Hizb'allah foreign relations....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

If you want to have scurrilous remarks up front then have all the scurrilous remarks up front. otherwise all you're doing is POV....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

As you think that only your POV should be used I'll have to include a tag....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I moved the sections to which Ashley kennedy3 is referring to the Hezbollah foreign relations page because that's where they belong. Ashley kennedy3 has also been blocked from editing for violating the 3 revert rule on this page for four days as indicated here. The sections removed which were listed previously under the section for Hezbollah's ideology, refer to foreign attitudes toward Hezbollah from the Israeli representative at UN Dan Gillerman, Canadian prime minister Jason Kenney, Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, and Alan Dershowitz. I also found Askley kennedy3's comments to violate NPOV because he repeatedly tried to entitle the section Demonisation of hezbollah in the West.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 01:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The process is called demonisation. The two sections on Hezbollah says about Israel should also go under Hezbollah foreign relations or the relevant pieces should come back, or the sections are POV.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I took the word "demonisation" to mean "the act of representing as evil or diabolic." It's implied that the party being demonized is not actually evil or diabolic. It's obviously POV whether someone is evil. When Hezbollah is compared to a cancer, the Nazis or the KKK, it's POV whether cancer, the Nazis or the KKK are actually evil. Therefore, the use of the word demonisation is inappropriate (unless someone is actually calling Hezbollah evil or its members demons). A better header would be Comparison of Hezbollah to cancer, the Nazis or the KKK. The term The West is also pretty amorphous. The section belongs under foreign relations rather than the section for Hezbollah's ideology because it describes foreign opinion of Hezbollah, not Hezbollah's ideology. If you want to fill out Hezbollah's foreign policy goals in the foreign policy section that would be appropriate.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 16:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Take that up with the academics who named the process. if you wish to change the word write a doctorate....Until then the process is still called demonisation...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

POV check

Somebody had put POV tag on Attitudes, statements, and actions concerning Israel and Attitudes, statements, and actions concerning Jews and Judaism sections. I think we can't put POV tag on the article which has been reviewed several times by many wikipedians so easily and reached GA status. Thus please add tags after discussion.--Seyyed(t-c) 02:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

This is neither the same article as then...nor the same editors...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Attitudes, statements, and actions concerning Jews and Judaism

This article is not a good place for the statements and quotations of different people. We just want to clarify the issue. Thus I moved about 10 kb of quotations to the sub-articles.--Seyyed(t-c) 01:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Now you know why I tagged it...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 23:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Hizbullah’s Role in Attacks Against U.S. and British Forces in Iraq

I am very new to Wikipedia, but I have recently stumbled upon this report. It is well cited and scholarly and I believe it is of importance to implement information from it into this article. Would anyone care to help me figure out the best ways to go about this?--Einsteindonut (talk) 07:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

• Seems like a pretty biased source. FunkMonk (talk) 15:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, scholarly bias.--Hamster X 07:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, as long as there's consensus, I guess it's not important. --Einsteindonut (talk) 16:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

If you read the Asharq Alawsat report it says that Iran denied the US claim about 180 degrees from what the JCPA claim Asharq Alawsat as reporting....it's so far out that I'm surprised that CAMERA didn't correct the JCPA...So far the US claim has never been substantiated...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It should be fairly obvious that the "Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs" is more than just a POV source, it is an active participant in defending a party and as such cannot be a reliable source. And more - some of the material it publishes can only be described as extreme eg "Is Israel Bound by International Law to Supply Utilities, Goods, and Services to Gaza?". Dr. Avi Bell is "a member of the Faculty of Law at Bar-Ilan University, Visiting Professor at Fordham University Law School, and Director of the International Law Forum at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs" so should be a respectable and reliable source. But he is apparently making the argument that Israel is entitled to lay siege to Gaza depriving everyone except children and pregnant mothers of food - and in fact, Israel can deprive them of everything too!

Another example has elements of the extreme, and the false: "All activities performed by Israel during the first intifada as well as nowadays are based on law. Israel follows the emergency defense regulations enacted by the British in Mandatory Palestine in 1945. They are similar to those enacted by the British against the IRA in Northern Ireland." PR^talk

• The claim should be ignored if much better sources aren't found. That article is libel. FunkMonk (talk) 15:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the 2006 Lebanon War section? =

?

It got moved up to where ESD was doing a re-write copy. To keep all the same stuff at the same place..saves doubling up...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

"Primary goals" in the lead

I can't believe I've been forced to come to the talk page to discuss this sentence, which User:Einsteindonut has now added for the third time. It is not "the indisputable truth", it is (unsourced) assertion and judgement, hence WP:OR. None of the sources, on a quick scan, allege that the destruction of Israel is one of Hezbollah's primary goals. This is a very specific claim, which would need to be well sourced. And even were you to do that, you would need to be sure that other equally reliable sources did not make different or contradictory assertions (eg that it is a secondary goal, or even not actually a goal as such at all).

As I also said, the point is already covered - more accurately as it happens - elsewhere in the lead, where the text clearly says "Hezbollah leaders have also made numerous statements calling for the destruction of Israel, which they refer to as a "Zionist entity...". Neither myself or any other neutral editor is going to dispute that, or argue that it should not be in the lead. So what exactly is the point of making things up, clogging up leads with repetition and then edit-warring over it? --Nickhh (talk) 21:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Israeli POV

I know the Israeli POV pushers would like the whole of hizb'allah declared a terrorist organisation in its entirety, world wide. But they must accept reality. only 4 nations have done so and the UK and Australia has not made the Hizb'allah military a terrorist organisation only one part....please read what the UK Home office actually says rather that what you want it to say...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 22:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually this seems to have changed in the last couple of months (see here) at least in respect of the UK's position. But, as the BBC piece says, you were of course right that the UK did make the distinction until recently (sweeping unsourced generalisations seem to come easier to many WP editors), and also to make the point that there seems to be a concerted effort to write this article from a very one-sided perspective in terms of what Hezbollah means to Israel, rather than what it means to the country where it actually originates or to the wider world. The former is of course important, but it isn't the main issue when you take a genuine worldwide and objective view of the subject matter. Which is what we are trying to do here, isn't it? Or did I miss something, and we're actually all here to edit for our countries and their governments? --Nickhh (talk) 22:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

When I changed Ashley's verbiage, I found the text I used (saying the Hezbollah Military Wing, called the External Security Source) on two Moslem web sites, which in the same articles argued the Israel was a terrorist state. I kind of assumed that they knew the correct terminology. And, as Nickhh says, now the full military wing is termed terrorist according to the UK. I have not seen the proclamation from Australia, but since the Australian Moslem web site uses that terminology I tend to believe it to be true.Sposer (talk) 02:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

the official version is the home office version... there has been no change...Hizb'allah within Lebanon is still considered by the UK gov as legitimate....at Tzipi Livni says shooting Israeli soldiers is not considered as a terrorist activity....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Just to be absolutely clear (Sposer your language above was a bit ambiguous at times), the military wing is not the same as External Security. The latter is only one part of that structure. Ashley was right to make the distinction between the two in respect of UK policy - however equally that policy seems to have changed since July. The BBC quotes the-then Home Office Minister Tony McNulty as confirming this, so that the UK does now appears to regard the entire military apparatus as a being "banned" under the Terrorism Act. Of course that still does not mean the politcal and social elements of the organisation are viewed as being terrorist. Ashley unless you know of something else that has in turn reverted this decision, it seems the text has to go back. --Nickhh (talk) 08:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Coming into existence

Why does the lead claim that Hezbollah came into being in 1982 (unequivocally), yet further down it claims it is ambiguous and may have come into being in '82 or maybe '85? I would say that if we aren't sure of the date, we should not put it in the lead. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The 1982 in the lead is referring to the date of the Israeli invasion which Hezbollah was ultimately formed in response to, not to the date of Hezbollah's foundation itself. The exact date is of course unclear, and there are differing interpretations of when it could be said to have been established as a single, unified grouping, as the article says. There were many radical groups around at the time - some interpretations would have them as being entirely separate groups, others as being precursors to Hezbollah proper and yet others would argue they were merely autonomous but integrated front organisations. --Nickhh (talk) 09:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I was unable to find a contemporary reference to them in '82, but there are several in '83 where they came on the scene with a bang. Pro-Iranian extremists in Lebanon hit the US peacekeeping contingent at the Beirut airport on Oct 23 of 1983 and 239 Americans were killed. "Fifty-eight French paratroopers died moments later in a second bombing, and 29 Israelis were killed in a third explosion in Tyre on Nov 4." The French and Israelis hit at the Shiite guerrillas in the Bekaa Valley sometime thereafter as reprisal. A massive funeral procession occurred following these raids, "amid roaring chants of 'Death to America, Death to Russia, We Love Martyrdom.'..... The procession was led by Hezbollah leader Sheik Subhi Tofeili. Tofeili vowed in a fiery speech to launch fresh attacks against the United States, Russia, and Israel. ...." Farouk Nassar Associated Press Nov 18, 1983 According to this article, their reason for being is to destroy America, Russia, France, and Israel... Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The French and Israelis hit at the Shiite guerrillas (Amal) in the Bekaa Valley sometime thereafter as reprisal.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 12:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Is Sheik Subhi Tofeili an Hizb'allah leader? Followers of fugitive Sheikh Subhi Tofeili had a rally in the city while a separate rally by Hizbullah was held in another part of the city.[4]...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 12:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggested reading:-

Killer Elite: The Inside Story of America's Most Secret Special Operations Team By Michael Smith Published by Macmillan, 2007 ISBN 0312362722

At that time Baalbek was under Amal and then the splinter group Islamic Amal which then joined up with Hizb'allah, who until the 90 was a relatively unknown group....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 12:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

• Take it up with the Associated Press and reporter Farouk Nassar in this 1983 article: [5] "The procession was led by Hezbollah leader Sheik Subhi Tofeili, flanked by Lebanese Shiite clergymen carrying large portraits of Khomeini. ..... "They have waged open war on us and war they will get, " Tofeili said. "America, France and Israel have started this war. Our fighters, who wear their death shrouds, shall go after them in Lebanon and elsewhere." Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Here are some further references for your edification: [6][7][8] It appears Tofeili or Toufeili broke from Hezbollah and started The Party of God, apparently a Hezbollah splinter group. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:09, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Your reference to "another part of the city" was from 1998. Mine was from 1983. By then Tofeili had apparently left Hezbollah and gone out on his own [9] Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

This means that we can now state that Israel is a terrorist organisation...take it up with the aussiemusslim....half of the incidents listed were Amal which then split to become Islamic Amal which then some went into Hizballah....which the Israeli POV writers are then saying "it's Hizballah what did it all"....Sheik Subhi Tofeili going on a march shouting his head off doesn't make him guilty of a terrorist incident....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 05:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the above commentaries are in no way productive to the working environment.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 05:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Using the Israeli POV as though it is the NPOV position is not conducive to a productive working environment......Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 08:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You obviously believe that you are neutral then. Certainly. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Suicide attacks and kidnappings

So far the above named section is a sad sack of inuendo which the linking acrticles say otherwise to this article....Therefore POV tag to be added...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. The section has been around for a very long time and I'm sure many people were behind the consensus of it and provided RS and everything. It lasted this long w/out this tag, but as soon as I get involved, you add the tag. If you want to go through each source, go for it. I highly doubt that the articles say anything different from the article itself. If you are going to make that claim, then back it up with an example. I trust the work of others in this case.--Einsteindonut (talk) 09:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

There is more in the story than "the criminal Hezbollah men committed suicide attacks and kidnappings", having a section with this title and in a leading position is POV. Imad marie (talk) 10:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed mostly. However while while this page should avoid falling into the "Hezbollah did it" trap, based on sweeping accusations, equally we need to be careful about assigning definitive blame for specific incidents to other named groups. For example the TWA hijack was almost certainly not carried out by Amal (they helped end the stand-off in fact, although it might be fair to suspect there were some links there - I've taken this one out), and I really don't know of any evidence for saying that the Buenos Aires bomb was carried out by the MKO/PMOI. Some of the accusations against Hezbollah are going to be flat out wrong, others - particularly relating to the early years of the civil war - are going to be clouded by genuine confusion and disagreement over whether specific groups were actually Hezbollah in all but name, or some other radical faction with varying degrees of linkage into the emerging group. --Nickhh (talk) 09:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

So the hizb'allah have been blamed for some or all line should be removed along with the numbers round up innuendo blather where in the ref the number is 8 incidents of the however many occurred from 1989 to 2004 where the ref is to all incidents across the world from many organisations....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The subsection here is indeed a bit of a mess, conflating different attacks and activities, and at various points in the current text claiming Hezbollah has admitted them (some? all?) and then denied them (all of them, apparently). In fact there's a case for a total deconstruction and reordering of the whole "Military Activities" section, which gives off the air of having been put together bit by bit without any real co-ordination, hence repetition and lack of clarity across various parts of it. A proper structure for the entire section, based both on the chronology and Hezbollah's original focus, would surely look something like this -

1. start with the 1980s conflict with Israel inside Lebanon (ie using the subsection below this one), an activity that Hezbollah was uncontroversially involved in.
2. then it could move to a separate and distinct discussion of contemporaneous activities in Lebanon such as kidnappings, suicide attacks against US and French targets etc, where Hezbollah involvement is less clear-cut, despite the standard assumptions in the West.
3. moving forward in time again to the Buenos Aires attacks in the 1990s, these need to be quite separate again, and it also needs to be noted that Hezbollah's denials on this are pretty strong as far as I've ever seen them.
4. then into the 2000s, there's the disputed involvement in Iraq (and let's be careful about Asharq al-Awsat as a source for this sort of thing)
5. also there's the ongoing conflict with Israel, post-2000 withdrawal and leading into the 2006 war

Just floating it as a suggestion rather than promising to do anything with it .... --Nickhh (talk) 17:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It didn't help when ESD tried a re-write of military section before finding out if the article already had that section.....It would behove him to familiarise himself with the article prior to editing the article....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

This section seems to be about much more than simply suicide attacks and kidnappings. In fact, kidnappings are barely mentioned, and we have hijackings and car bombs etc. Something is at least wrong with the title. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Getting out of hand

This page has descended into something of a battleground. In a bid by various editors to insert things that they happen to believe are important, actual relevant facts are being messed around with and reverted. As a result demonstrably false material and suggestions are now being placed in this page. Can everyone please calm down a bit, and try to focus on verifiable, up to date, relevant information from reliable sources and afford then due weight in the article? To take two examples -

1) Ashley you keep reverting the lead so it says that the UK only considers the ESO as terrorist. This was the case until July, but the government then extended this to the entire military structure. I have explained this on the talk page and provided you with a BBC reference explaining this, and also updated the link to the relevant page on the Home Office website - which has been amended and now explicitly refers to the entire military wing rather than the ESO. You are right that it gives the definitive UK position - so please read the latest version of it. You are simply wrong on a basic issue of fact. It is nothing to do with POV or anything else. And as well as being inaccurate, the text is now garbled and repetitive: The United Kingdom has placed the external security organisation,[4] part of its military wing on its list of proscribed terrorist organisations, while Australia considers part of its military structure, the External Security Organisation, a terrorist organization.[5][6][7][8]

2) Tundrabuggy, you keep messing around with the text on suicide bombings, removing the point (taken from Robert Pape's work) that actually most suicide bombings in the 1980s were carried out by other Lebanese groups, not Hezbollah. If this section is going to be on the Hezbollah page at all, this has to be made clear or it is simply cheap innuendo and association by omission of facts. To say it is "irrelevant and distracting" is either spectacularly missing the point, or being deliberately disingenuous. Let me know which it is.

Sorry to come over all school-teachery, but this kind of thing is all incredibly frustrating. It also leads to a ridiculous situation where everyone expends huge amounts of energy fighting - and at the end of the say the only thing that this project gets out of it is a whole bunch of back and forth reverting, and an article with some pretty basic errors of fact in it. --Nickhh (talk) 09:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The Homeoffice position is still the ESO is the terrorist wing, the Home office web site is up to the minuet. The July change was in verbiage (diplomatic language used) but not on the designation, contrary to what the BBC have reported...Previously the UK gov had the designation as the Islamic Jihad (named as the external security organisation) and made no mention of Hizb'allah....It now says Hizb'allah's external security organisation....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Yesterdays it was just the Hizb'allah ESO today it is the Hizb'allah military wing...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

This sentence in the lead is POV:-

It is regarded as a legitimate resistance movement throughout most of the Arab and Muslim world.

Nelson Madella also classifies it as resistance movement as does Africa...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

A reliable source please? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Only 6 countries out of the UN declare Hiz'allah or parts of hizb'allah a terrorist organisation...And where is your reliable source to say otherwise......Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I actually think including the declaration about the Arab and Muslim world balances the start of the lead (at least Wiki POV), which also mentions that it is considered a terrorist organization by several countries. Although other countries may not have put it there due to certain nasty politics or sticking their heads in the sand, while very possibly true, it would be OR. If you can find a source, please add it!Sposer (talk) 11:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I share Sposer's sentiments that it balances the intro. I would appreciate Ashley responding to a request that they support the Nelson Mandela statement with a reliable source though. UN members are a bit irrelevant to that statement and Mandela is surely notable enough to be added, at least in the body of the article, if this statement is accurate. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Nickh...to your point that "that actually most suicide bombings in the 1980s were carried out by other Lebanese groups, not Hezbollah." I don't have a problem with that if you simply come out and say that. If that was the point, it was not at all clear. Instead line read like an apology for terrorists, about how they the "people" (the killers) were Christian and communist etc yet the victims were "targets" as opposed to human beings. Make the point straight out. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I would just add that the reference given did not say what, if any, other groups were involved. It is not impossible that communists and socialists, and maybe even Christians could be recruited (or co-erced) by Hezbollah into such acts. Either way to say they were or were not Hezbollah strikes me as OR based on only the given ref. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Both the original source and the written text were pretty clear about what they are saying to me, although admittedly it might have been written up a little better on the page here (a newer version has been inserted now). Pape has written a whole book about this, but I guess this brief online interview was all that whoever added this in the first place could dig up at the time. I or someone else may get round to trawling the book for more specific details on this point. --Nickhh (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

May be we could put it as a % something on the lines of 98% of the world do not consider hizbollah a terrorist organisation....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:23, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

And Terry Waite is also somewhat circumspect in using the word terrorist when referring to hizb'allah....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:27, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I see that Jaakobou and Sposer have decided they are entitled to speak on behalf of all the nations in the UN. If they could just pop their diplomatic accreditation letters into the mail box for verification please.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have put nothing in the article that isn't sourced. I made an OR-ish statement in a talk page, suggesting that I suspect there are more people than one might think that consider Hezbollah terrorists. I support the point about Hezbollah's standing in the Muslim world belonging in the lede, and have not commented on anything else.Sposer (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The suggestion that you come up with a source for the Mandela claim is fair enough. You could find one for the Waite claim while you're at it.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

With regard to other countries' opinions on Hezbollah (since Ashley seems to think I make these things up), please see: http://euobserver.com/22/26754. I am not suggesting to put this into the article, but as I read this, and several other articles, Italy, Portugal and Germany all seem to support adding Hezbollah, or some part of it, to the EU terrorist group list. France, however, is strongly against it. I also do not know anything about euobserver and am not suggesting it is RS, because I have no idea. But, I have seen several other recent stories on a general move among EU MP's to include Hezbollah. Other recent articles include http://www.epp-ed.eu/Press/showpr.asp?PRControlDocTypeID=1&PRControlID=7777&PRContentID=13548&PRContentLG=en. Seems to be largely one group pushing this, but one that has the largest bloc of MEPs. However, statements by other officials say this should be done by the European Council and not the European Parliament and that though Germany, Italy and Portugal apparently favor inclusion, that it would only be included if the decision was unanimous. This article argues only the UK and Netherlands favor adding Hezbollah: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=70015&sectionid=351020203.Sposer (talk) 02:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Sposer I am not saying you are making things up merely that you are relying on one small minority of world opinion......the other 97% of the world are not of the same opinion...Terry Waite....[10]....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting article with some stuff that could be helpful in State terrorism. Waite however seems to be taking an inclusive rather than an exclusive line to the use of the word "terrorist". "My experience as a hostage taught me that terrorist groups are made up of so many different types of people." makes no sense unless he is calling Hazbollah - or at least some of its activists and structure - terrorist.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ashley, you should read the things that I linked before inventing statistics. The articles I linked, and several others like it, say that the majority of EU countries believe that Hezbollah, or some part thereof, should be classified as a terrorist organization. However, essentially France is blocking this. As for China, they are not exactly exemplars of human rights (and they supply misslies to Iran and have ties to Hamas as well, so I would assume they don't consider either organization terrorists) and the Russians are not exactly kind to their own Moslems.You should read this with regard to Russia: http://www.russiablog.org/2006/07/putin_slams_on_terrorism_suppo.php. Just so I am not accused of picking and choosing, Putin was saying that Hezbollah had no right to attack Israel, but that Israel's response was an escalation. He also said that innocent people (on both sides) were being killed, although I think the implication was more due to Israel's attacks.

You need to understand something. I agree with Terry Waite. He says Hezbollah are terrorists. Terrorism is a way of engaging in war. While these people may be fighting what they consider to be unjust, they are doing it in ways that murder innocent people as part of their strategy. You might be surprised to know that I think all the settlers should be removed everywhere (I am undecided on Jerusalem). I also reject 110% any calls that have to do with changing the laws in Israel to make it more Jewish. That stuff disgusts me.

I also thought the Shah deserved what he got, but considered it terrorism-like to kidknap the people they did (anything not a soldier is terrorism, although they didn't kill them, which is less harsch than current trends). However, every single person I know from Iran (all Moslem, not talking about Iranian Jews), says that the Persian population is generally favorable to the West and is not necessarily anti-Israel. Obviously, I am talking about people with biased views since they live here, but that is what they tell me.Sposer (talk) 12:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Of the 192 members of UN you are concerned only with 6, that is 3% of UN members....that is 2% say all Hizballah are terrorists and .5% say the military wing and .5% the external security organisation....The African nations put Hizballah as a resistance force...China now there's a big country, what do they say, Russia another, what do they say?...sorry but your emphasis is somewhat slanted towards US, Israel, UK, Netherlands, Australia, Canada to the exclusion of the vastly greater worldview....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ashley kennedy3,

Are you going to follow up on your claim that "Nelson Madella also classifies it as resistance movement as does Africa"? This claim is quite exceptional (and notable for the article) and I'd be interested in a few mainstream sources that back this up. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Introduction

I remember reading the article's intro a while ago and noticing that it was remarkably NPOV for such a controversial article. However, why was it modified? After the first sentence you immediately state that it is a terrorist organization. It seems like a stereotypical Western POV that first tags Hezbollah with the terrorist attribute? It's like stating at the intro of the Israel article: Israel is a country in Western Asia located on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. Since its foundation, Israel's boundaries and even the State's very right to exist have been subject to dispute, especially among its Arab neighbors. which would be considered a stereotypical Arab POV . What about this version. It states all facts and POVs without being too stereotypical. Eklipse (talk) 09:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You're quite right. The present lead is totally unacceptable, and wholly POV (as is most of the article) and your link shows the way forward in this case is by reverting backward. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 13:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I am okay with that version, despite my POV that they are a terrorist group. However, there needs to be one change. Although the EU has not designated them as terrorist, the articles I have seen essentially say that that has not happened because the European Council is seeking unanimity and that France is blocking it. Germany, Italy and Portugal have expressed support for considering Hezbollah, or part of it as a terrorist organization. And, the articles I noted above also suggested that the majority of European states support such designation. So, all I ask, rather than getting into that morass, is to remove the "most notably the EU" part of the intro.Sposer (talk) 14:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your suggestion. But could you provide a neutral source for your claim? Eklipse (talk) 15:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I will try. This covers part of it, though I honestly know nothing about euobserver.com. The article seems to be written in a neutral manner: http://euobserver.com/22/26754. This article points out they are not, because "several members including France" oppose it. This does not imply either majority or minority, but makes the "notable" statement in the older version at least slightly suspect. http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=70015&sectionid=351020203. Although from a Jewish group, this notes Solana's requirement for unanimity: http://www.ejpress.org/article/9966. This is clearly partisan and POV, but I suspect the facts regarding unanimity and the European Parliament vote are true: http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/phi062007.htm. (Also note (for Ashley) the interesting quote where Hezbollah does not differentiate between its military and political arms. I will look a bit more around for confirmation of that quote in proper context, since I would not trust it was being used in the way it was meant, based on the source either. It is worth researching though, since it would belie the whole separating out what part of Hezbollah is or is not terrorist. That said, I do not feel strongly about the inclusion of anything regarding that quote.)

However, to remove a statement, I really do not think we need sources. In other words, saying that it is notable that the EU has not included Hezbollah as a terrorist organization is misleading, since it implies that there is near unanimity of that belief. Just removing the statement removes that possible POV and leaves it neutral. If it was kept in, then we would need to go into all the conjecture on who and how many...Sposer (talk) 17:31, 12 October 2008 (UTC)