User talk:Katefan0/5

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Talk archive: One

Welcome back

Hope you had a nice vacation. Now get back to work! Cheers, -Willmcw 19:45, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

What he said. Shem^(talk) 19:49, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Texas template

I appologize ahead for clogging up your talk page with this.

Recently, User:Ed g2s keeps on changing the Texas template to a plain version and won't explain why. I need you guys to support me to keep the Texas template that has been active.

This is the Texas template that has been active, before that user erased it, see below:

I want you guys to have some input and decide which one is best for Texas. Like I said, I support the colorful template, but Ed g2s has been reverting it without explaination and has threatened to block me if I revert again to the colorful one. I think the colorful one is more aesthetic looking. Ed g2s doesn't seem to think so and keeps on erasing it to a plain version. Also, he's not even from Texas, he's from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Let's have a vote on this on Template talk:Texas. Thank you for everyone's time. – UH Collegian 19:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Uncle Ed and Price-Anderson Mediation

It appears, from Ed Poor's discussion page, that he believes he is being booted from being a sysop and admin. This leaves us with no Mediator for Price-Anderson.

By [1], the numbers have changed for Price-Anderson - coverage for facilities and activities licensed before 2026, required primary insurance to $300 million each, and secondary assessments to $95.8 million each. These numbers should go into the article - but I hesitate to start the edit-warring again. Katefan0 and Woohookitty, advice? Simesa 20:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply - I'll support whatever you do. In PAA I made the changes to the numbers only, and to add a citation - surprisingly, there's been no overnight action in PAA, nuclear power or Energy Policy Act of 2005. Simesa 10:28, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Crawfish

Well, Swedes are sometimes surprised that Dixies and Cajuns eat crawfish as well :). There is an old tradition of eating crawfish in Europe, but it is in Sweden that the eating takes enormous proportions.--Wiglaf 07:32, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

No worries. --Briangotts (talk) 13:44, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

RfC work

If I read all the policies under Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, do you feel I have the insight and tact to participate in an RfC? Simesa 10:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Expenditures of Energy Policy Act of 2005 by Industry

Katefan0, do we have solid numbers for any of the below?

• ?.? Billion Energy Effeciency measures (18 billion Estimate from 2003 bill)
• 4.3 Billion for Nuclear Detailed 2005 breakdown
• ?.? Billion for clean coal
• ?.? Billion Hydrogen
• ?.? Billion Ethanol
• ?.? Billion Oil and gas (2.1 billion Estimate from 2003 bill)
• ?.? Billion Freedom Car initiative (1.7 billion 2003 CATO estimate)

Simesa 01:36, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply in Energy Policy Act of 2005 - I'm going to have to get you a real barnstar! Simesa 13:24, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Going Camping

I'm taking my daughter camping with Mensa over this weekend, so don't be surprised if there's a flurry of edits late Sunday night (although I hope not!). Simesa 13:24, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Re:Energy Policy Act of 2005

Hi, I definately agree with you in that it wouldn't be prudent to fit all of Congress'es quotes, and although I disagree in that they are all relevant(especially Stabenow considering the Great Lakes slant drilling issue), transwikiing to Wikiquotes is a good idea. However, I've never edited there, and couldn't find a great place to put quotes on the subject. The bill seemed a little too mundane for the things being talked about in the politics section. I'd appreciate your advice, thanks in advance. Karmafist 20:00, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Gotcha. I'll try to get around to it eventually, the rules of this place almost seem irrelevant at times. Have fun on your vacation! Karmafist 17:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Texas history

Sorry about posting this on your userpage, but I'm afraid of starting a war on the Rangers talk page. Hope this is alright.

I glanced at your page and saw that you are a hedonist and Washington political reporter. Good for you.

I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression - I am an anglo. But like a lot of Texans, much of my extended family is Chicano. Honestly, my thinking on this issue wouldn't be any different if I didn't have this family. It's just a very nasty and sensitive part of history, and one that a lot of people would rather not think about.

I am going to be accused of being a revisionist, and perhaps in some sense of the word I am. The reason that I am talking to you is that I have no currency in journalism, and I am leaving town and hopefully the wikipedia for a little while and won't be able to defend my edits.

So, here goes. The article in its present form (and the official [DPS page]) shows the Rangers much in the same light that 'Birth of a Nation' depicts the Aryan Knights. I know that sounds extreme, and I don't usually make statements like that, but this can be backed up (I swear I'm not a crank). There was an undocumented war in 1911 near the border. The Rangers functioned as a lynch mob during this period. Rangers were essentially political appointees, given comissions in return for political favors. There are photographs of Rangers posing with one foot on bodies of murdered chicanos. They waged a terror campaign, sactioned by the governor. Families of murdered men never returned to land they fled in terror, and this land was then procured by wealthy connected families (note that these exiled families in many cases had lived on this land since the 18th century, hence the difference between the terms Tejano and Mexican). This was only a few generations ago: grandfathers remember talk of lost husbands and homes. This is still very current to a lot of Chicanos living in Texas. And none of this is really in dispute.

Some sources and leads:

• [Texas Matters on TPR], show #253, July 1, 2005.
• [HNN Roundup] Mentions documentary aired on PBS that I can't seem to find

Revolution in Texas: How a Forgotten Rebellion and Its Bloody Suppression Turned Mexicans Into Americans by Benjamin H. Johnson, Yale University Press

The Texas Rangers And The Mexican Revolution: The Bloodiest Decade, 1910-1920 by Charles H. Harris III, Louis R. Sadler, New Mexico University Press

In summary: A paragraph probably won't cut it. It would reflect badly on the wikipedia community if this article reached feature status without addressing this history. Again, apologies for all this crap on your talkpage, but you seem so totally qualified to tackle this, both as a journalist and UT alum. (Please feel free to cut and paste this back to my talkpage if you wish.)--demonburrito 11:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Homosexuality

Tell me, what is so special about homosexuality over zoophilia that exempts it from being identified as a paraphilia? If homosexuality is a sexual orientation, then surely all paraphilias based on the characteristics of the attractile are sexual orientations?

Clay Aiken

Don't worry--it isn't some coordinated campaign. A Toronto on-line paper copied the Wikipedia entry pretty much word for word in a promo for Thursday's concert, which has led to some discussion on the fan boards. Some attempted deletes are inevitable. It'll pass. I think it would help if you didn't think of these folks as "the enemy"--just folks who don't agree with the paragraph being there, and aren't familiar with how Wikipedia works. And why am I not here reverting? Because I'm over there trying to explain how Wikipedia works, so maybe there'll be fewer problems over here. -Jmh123 22:24, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I got an interesting communication today, relating to the deletions that led to the edit war. It reinforces what I'm trying to say about this negative attitude towards those who delete that paragraph:

I just wanted to let you know that on that Wikipedia thing - I was the anonymous editor that kept deleting the Gay reference.

HONESTLY I was not trying to cause problems - I just did not have a clue how the thing worked. I had added the last 2 paragraphs about Clay going to Banda Aceh and Uganda, and testifying in congress at several times during the prior months and they just left them - so I didn't realize that you were supposed to talk to anyone about it first.

Heck - I stole the code for the Discography and updated the whole end part anonymously - no problem.

Well - by the time that I figured out what was going on - I was totally embarassed that they thought that I was trying to create trouble - so I just stayed out - LOL.

Thank You for following through on it when I didn't.

Referring to these edits as vandalism, or saying things like "here we go again," IMO, is making unkind assumptions. Why assume that everyone knows how this very complex site works, or assume that an edit to that paragraph is, prima facie, an attack? As you can see by this woman's comments, she was intimidated out of contributing to Wikipedia further by the vehemence of the reaction to her edits. -Jmh123 01:38, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Rfa

Man, do you ever do easy jobs on here? :-) GluttonForPunishment should be your name. --Woohookitty 04:11, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Hubberts Peak

Katefan0, would you consider looking over Hubbert peak theory as much as I would personally like to see the end of cheap oil, this page is a pure and unadulterated tinfoil hat cult classic masquerading as a serious bit on a (somewhat) serious site. Note - I am asking you for help, think of how much that hurts, and then go have a swing will ya? Benjamin Gatti

Pardon me for butting in - I saw the comment. The "Peak oil" folks are hardcore believers indeed (referring to no one specifically). Often, in my experience, they also have a survivalist or apocalyptic orientation. I encourage anyone with the interest and fortitude to try to bring their articles towards neutral. Cheers, -Willmcw 21:06, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Well, since Katefan0's on vacation, and since I've read a bit about the topic - I'm taking the plunge into (or would that be "past"?) the peak problem. Johntex 21:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I think I will appreciate all the help I can get on this one! I haven't quite left yet (physically anyway -- that'll be Monday morning), but this one is going to require some boning up on that I won't have time for before I leave, I fear. See you over there when I get back. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:43, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Image:Inichorechurch.jpg

Hi, the image Image:Inichorechurch.jpg you posted a long, long time ago doesn't seem to have information on its source and license. Would you like to fix this? Thanks! –Mysid (talk) 07:26, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Fun

Recreation, sand, sun, surf, leisure, relaxation, tourism, jungle, rain forest. Do your research. -Willmcw 08:34, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Have a great time on the volcano. Take lots of pictures, but remember - no original research! -Willmcw 03:59, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Welcome back

I have nominated you for adminship, cheers. Dragons flight 17:35, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Texas annexation: 4 vs 5

Reading the joint resolution you mentioned in Austin's talk page, it looks like the condition is to allow up to four new states "in addition to said State of Texas". Perhaps that's what you meant, but when people are saying "split into five" I think they mean total. Deh 21:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Why We're All Here?

Lost cause. It's not why he's here. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:53, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I presume Hipocrite is referring to your comments for BigDaddy. I don't know what to do about that fellow. He initiated an e-mail conversation with me; not uncivil at all but his mindframe is such that I don't think he'll ever be able to properly work with people on this project. I've never started an RfC (and don't know if one has been started for him) but it might be needed here. Marskell 17:06, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

You may both be right. But, I wanted to try to steer the conversation toward article content instead of mudslinging. He can always ignore the rejoinder, but at least it's been made. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:27, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Don't get too attached. I really felt that progress was being made, but then I somehow got added to the list, and devolution happened. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:39, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

QED. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:02, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Been made and not taken well. If either of you agree on RfC I will help--I don't know much about it and now he's bugging me. Though, he may actually enjoy the opportunity to rant.

Nice user page incidentally. Ah, beer. I'm going to start in on five or six in about 15 minutes and then we'll see how smart BigDaddy is. Marskell 18:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Please make all further rejoinders and conversations with BigDaddy about his uncivil behavior on his talk page. This aids a possible User-Conduct RfC in the future, which may be where this is heading[2] 68.199.46.6 04:18, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

RFA

By the looks of things, you will soon become one of Wikipedia's newest Admin. I just wanted to be the first one to congratulate you — so congrats it was well deserved :)

Journalist ^{C. Holla @ me!}

Unibroue

Well now I've tried Fin du Monde. Awful. I mean good beer but awful that I'm usually waving the bottle around at the end of the night talking about the end of the world. Sleeman's (the parent company) has a very nice product and they've really grabbed a good part of the market in Canada. It's sit-by-the-lake beer and people don't mind paying extra. As for U.A.E., just your predictable imports—Heineken, Foster's, Bud; I've not even seen Molson here. They do have liquour stores but technically it's illegal to buy from them without a permit and the only time I went it was a lot of low-end European stuff I'd never heard of.

I've often thought of a "drinking beer globally" article. Costs, availability and culture compared—just afraid it would be too anecdotal. Maybe Worldwide Beer Prices at least? Hm. Marskell 08:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Check it: [[3]]. I could see this going VfD in short order but I think it could actually be useful. If you can think of a better way to format please do. Marskell 11:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Looting

I'd rather not be accused of wasting your time in a revert war. I bet you agree that a more neutral tone is necessary, but I don't see any research supporting the current text, and my research is being deleted. That isn't cooperation in my book. Benjamin Gatti

Rind et al

As an occasional editor of NAMBLA, you may be interested in also watching Rind et al. Some recent edits to that article appear to introduce a particular POV. I'll admit that this obscure topic is beyond my interest or knowledge, but it could use attention from a good editor. (PS, I'm also posting this note on a few other editors' pages). Cheers, -Willmcw 19:24, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations

You're an admin! Check out the free advice if you want. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:32, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Congrats. --Canderson7 20:28, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations and good luck as an admin! Andre (talk) 21:36, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Congrats. I didn't even know you where up, but I would have voted for you. nobs 21:39, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Congrats! I'll always support you. Always always. You can count on that! --Woohookitty 21:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Congrats dear! I'll spare you the duty of reaching my name in the list at your RfA, lol :) You deserve it! Posting sixty-something thanking messages must be a hard work, I bet! Just one more tease for you: we're in September now, you Miss "I-became-an-admin-in-August" ;) *Hugs!* - Shauri Yes babe? 22:19, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations from me too. Watch your stress levels over the next little while; it isn't easy being an admin.-gadfium 22:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Felicitatons! (Just needed a change.) I'm mostly away but I couldn't resist replying to your provocative note. See, you have to be a little drunk some of the time to stay sane. Btw, me? I haven't made a single consequential contribution yet. You, on the other hand, could have been an admin months ago! Now go kick some butt. Dmcdevit·t 22:25, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Congrats. K1Bond007 22:28, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Re:Your message (I didn't want to break up this message): Your welcome, I am happy to support anyone who can benefit the community. Congratulations, too. Molotov (talk) 22:29, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome, and congratulations! May you wear it well. User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:30, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations! Jayjg ^(talk) 22:40, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Strongest possible support. OK, so it's a moot point.  :) You are gonna love what I call the "history eraser button." Vandalism goes bye-bye with a couple of clicks of the killer mouse! Congratulations!! - Lucky 6.9 00:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Getting a little buzzed with new found power is a fine thing. How else would we ever find people crazy... foolish... helpful enough to deal with complaints at WP:AN/I? Enjoy. Dragons flight 02:24, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome - but the true Thank You is to you for helping make Wikipedia a better place. Good luck with your new power responsibility! Johntex\^talk 04:33, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations on your overwhelming support. However Wikipedia is the real winner- we're lucky to have you as a participant. Thanks for taking on additional responsibilities. -Willmcw 08:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding repetitive, I would like to congratulate you on receiving your adminship! It was about time. :D Hall Monitor 22:26, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Congrats Katefan0! I'm sure even buzzed, you will do a great job. Maltmomma ^(chat) 20:12, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Cabal

Cabal toaster

Welcome to the cabal. Here is your cabal toaster. --Phroziac ^(talk) 22:48, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

I also welcome you to the cabal. You will lead blue team. It is your job to stay up late finding reasons to oppose RfA's to make the cabal remain exclusive. ;) Redwolf24 (talk) 22:51, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Be honest

"I may occasionally be slightly buzzed with power, but never drunk." Never? O'cmon. If I couldn't edit wiki drunk it would be pointless. Plz, if you have the time to give an admin opinion is the Beer prices worldwide article a waste of time? --Marskell 22:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Drunk Admins

Maybe you haven't heard this already, but administrators must be alcoholics. I'm afraid I'm going to have to request a de-sysop. Acetic'^Acid 23:05, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Harry Potter

Ah, yes. Did you like the last book? Me, I have some issues, but I want to know what you think. Hermione1980 23:08, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm a Harry/Hermione shipper, so I wasn't happy with the Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione thing, for one. I guess that's probably my main issue. I wasn't happy with the nice little ending surprise, for another thing. I've just thought this book and Order of the Phoenix both lack something. On the other hand, I like the fact that she developed Draco's character more. I thought the fact that he couldn't kill Dumbledore showed there's still hope for his redemption. Other than that, I really don't know what I think about it — I had an exam in Spanish today and I'm still chanting the different forms of the verb ser in my head. Cheers, Hermione1980 23:34, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Popups tool

Congratulations on being made an admin! I thought you might like to know of a javascript tool that may help in your editing by giving easy access to many admin features. It's described at Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups. The quick version of the installation procedure for admins is to paste the following into User:Katefan0/5/monobook.js:

// [[User:Lupin/popups.js]] - please include this line 

document.write('<script type="text/javascript" src="' 
             + 'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Lupin/popups.js' 
             + '&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script>');

popupShortcutKeys=true; // optional: enable keyboard shortcuts
popupAdminLinks=true;   // optional: enable admin links

There are more options which you can fiddle with listed at Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups. Give it a try and let me know if you find any glitches or have suggestions for improvements! Lupin|talk|popups 23:54, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Texas

Hi again! I just took the liberty of editing the Texan Wikipedians page. I hope you don't mind... but hey, we have a new Texan admin after all ;) *Hugs* - Shauri Yes babe? 15:45, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

How I became a Wikipedian

Thanks! I thought no one was reading it. Anyway, it's a good reminder to me sometimes of how to treat newbies. And oldies too. moink 21:53, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

No Help At All

Kate, what you are telling me is that I must now come here and monitor this entry every day to see if it is being vandalized. And if it is I must go through this same silly procedure to get it back to what it is now. A tremendous waste of time which serves the purpose of the trolls perfectly. You say I can deal with the vandalism myself? Not so. I am not an administrator. I had an account with you last time this happened, but you closed it down. To me you are just passing the buck and ducking the issue AGAIN! When you let these trolls publish the names of my friends, their lives are placed in danger. In my first post on this issue I quoted you a line where they bragged about videotaping some of my friends at their homes. That is STALKING! I don't know why you don't think that rises to the level of warranting you to click one icon and save a human life instead of clinging to some ridiculous procedure where a page must be vandalized a thousand times in a single week before you will do anything. Next, I can't for the life of me understand why you won't discuss this privately instead of making me repeat it all in public a hundred times. More silly procedure. Your rationale for not protecting this page, and the page itself with the names on it, have all been shown to the local authorities who assure me that if any of my friends have to set the dogs on any of the punks who creep up on them, that you can be held criminally liable for publishing the addresses. Seems to me any sane person would want to protect themselves from such an embarassment, and possible even prevent it with a single click of the mouse. Rather than continue to act like a lame lawyer who thinks the splitting hairs means anything to criminals. I deeply resent having to come here and embarrass you again and again. That alone should show you the wisdom of just doing the right thing. There can be only one reason why you refuse to make this simple accomodation- BECAUSE USING MY NAME BRINGS PEOPLE TO YOUR SITE, even if it puts me and my friends in jeopardy. That's is pretty sad, Kate. There is no reason that anyone else would keep up a webpage that the subject of has repeated asked be taken down. And, as I have shown with good reason. If one of my friends gets killed in his sleep by some pumped-up, steroid-raging UFC wannabee, worse yet, if one of my friends has to kill one of these punks, I hope you can live with yourself.

Ashida Kim

You've got mail from...Big Daddy

I prefer to deal with this quietly. It should be clear to you that I, as a newbie who does not know ALL the rules yet, was being baited by someone who deleted my comments, then tried to set me up. The rest of this saga is in my email. This is a very serious situation in my book and I hope you deal with the offending party. I was merely protecting myself from unilateral and unconscionable attacks. I will not back down from people who think they can push me around because they don't agree with my politics. The person in question has a LONG history of doing exactly that to others. Just read their comments... Big Daddy 04:55, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I have done no such thing. I stand by my edits and by my conduct, and have NEVER made a personal attack anywahere near the kinds you make as a matter of course. I cannot wait until you are blocked permanently from the Wikipedia - not as revenge, but as a response to your behavior. Your behavior thus far makes that a very likely outcome... you have a long history (including your 3RR vio and an RfC), of repeated, blatant personal attacks. Numerous editors have commented on it, it's not about my conduct. It's about yours. Kate - please help - this user is systematically disrupting articles in the interests of his POV. And claims he's a 'new user' are at this point irrelevant... he have had ample time to conduct yourself as an adult, and have instead made 'unilateral and unconscionable' attacks on others from the outset. The fact that I oppose his conduct does not mean we are equally at fault in this conflict. My behavior and his are nowhere near in the same league. I have edited and respected others consistently - and BD has not. The record is clear. -- RyanFreisling @ 05:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Ryan doesn't like my politics. Therefore she tries to get me banned.

Everyone can read the comments Ryan has made to conservatives and the dismissive tone she uses. It's a long established pattern. To suggest that I'm trying to interject POV would be uproariously funny if I didn't think Ryan actually believed that. The fact of the matter is that the Karl Rove article was HORRIBLY biased. I have made several substantive and helpful changes that have brought much balance. No one has thanked me. No one has shown one whit of appreciation over the hard work I put in. But I've gotten plenty of grief over it. Warning...threats, anonymous reverts...I could write a book on the unconscionable way I have been treated since I arrived. "I cannot wait until you are blocked permanently from the Wikipedia!" Does that sound like assuming good faith?

I've also enforced founder Jimmy Wales edict that sources be IMPARTIAL. Ryan had been working on the Karl Rove article LONG before I arrived on the scene. And in that regard Ryan shares some of the responsibilities for it being so egregiously biased. And for Ryan to defend the condition it was in and to fight me...every..step..along the way of trying to bring a nPOV to this article says all anyone needs to say. Sorry, but wishing someone is banned is hardly consistent with Wik procedures of 'don't bite the newbies' and 'assume good faith.' Anything but. In fact, I think your very own words and actions, especially the unilateral deletion of my comments because you didn't agree with them says more about your motives than anything else I can add.

I have ALOT more work to do on the Karl Rove page. I will continue to do what I've ALWAYS done which is to submit my suggestions to others for comment before making changes. And then eliminating the bias. That's ALL I'm interested in doing. And I think it's worthwhile work. Sure, it would be easier if people didn't ANONYMOUSLY revert my edits without ANY COMMENT WHATSOEVER. And it would be easier if I didn't have to defend myself from silly personal attacks all the time.

I didn't instigate this revert fight tonight. That was Ryan. But I won't back down. Not from some tawdry stunt and CERTAINLY not from working my hardest to make Wik the best nPOV encyclopedia ever. Big Daddy 05:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The fact that I have been working on the article for a long time, and that I haven't been RfC'ed, or committed 3RRs, or made personal attacks, etc. proves my point. We can all get along, whatever our politics - unless we resort to personal attacks, as you have done from the outset. I have never personally attacked you, or any other editor - editing and issues get pretty hot sometimes, but I've never crossed that line. You, however, would pretend the line can be lifted and placed wherever you like. -- RyanFreisling @ 05:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Kate, if you look at just what ryan has written in the FEW MINUTES since she was reprimanded, you'll find her constantly getting in my grille, stalking my every post, and making snide cheap and insulting comments. I'm simply trying to get on with the editing of the Karl Rove article and am totally ignoring any other side shows. Look and see if you don't agree. I think it'll vindicate my position from the beginning.Big Daddy 06:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, please look and see if you don't agree. -- RyanFreisling @ 06:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Please, everybody take a deep breath. It won't do any good to argue on my talk page. BigDaddy777, if you feel like you've been so wronged, why not try following some of the suggestions in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution? That's what they're there for. I see that you've already had an RFC opened on you -- it's an awfully negative response so far considering that you haven't even been here three weeks yet; without passing judgment, to me this suggests that you maybe ought to reconsider how you're conducting yourself here. · Katefan0^(scribble) 16:14, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

"It's an awfully negative response so far considering that you haven't even been here three weeks yet;" that's how they try to silence conservatives in here. That and falsely accuse us of vandalism. But don't worry Katefan...I can see based on you blaming last night on me and dredging up this bogus RFC that you're not being fair either...Big Daddy 19:10, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

There are 3 certifiers (one who I don't even know) and 13 users aggreeing with the originators of the RFC. There are 4 users who said that the RFC shouldn't have been filed - whic reads, in part "Bigdaddy is rough around the edges and certainly tends to get hot under the collar," another of whom said "I don't think Bigdaddy has any excuse for bad language or getting nasty. He should be warned," a third who said "I appreciate Kizzle's concerns; they are valid, and they should be addressed". There is another opinion, which reads "After his admittedly poor start on Wikipedia BigDaddy777 and I have engaged in a conversation by email in which he has remained perfectly civil and taken on board my comments and suggestions about how he can improve his editing and his relations with other Wikipedians." That's not the response you get to a bogus RFC. You need to read the RFC, respond to it, and change your behavior to follow the policies and guidelines of this project. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

BD has just vandalized the article again [4], decrying a source for a section, then deleting it despite the addition of numerous 'notable' and 'reputable' sources. This is a downward spiral. -- RyanFreisling @ 17:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok KateFan, how would you handle this one?

NOTE FROM BIG DADDY: I'm embarassed that I would have been so naive as to think you were a fair broker here. Do you mind if I DELETE my pleading below. It just doesn't seem right seeing my honest appeal for help on YOUR page. I realize now I was just wasting my efforts.

Respectfully,

Big Daddy 07:19, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I thought there was some rule about not reverting an edit 3 times. Well an edit I was made has been reverted over and over and over again.

I explained NUMEROUS times PRIOR to my edit why I would make such a change and NO COMMENT. No one factually responded. They just changed or reverted my edit without comment.

So you see, in my ten days here I've been subejected to what appears to be a massive campaign to silence me. And sorry, my confrontational tone cannot be blamed for ALL of it. There's something deeper here. And last night topped the cake when, of all things, my talk comments were deleted by someone and you basically blamed me for the incident! And I will point out that Ryan has accused me of 'vandalism' simply because I, with thorough attribution, removed biased sections of the article. Did you reprimand Ryan for that? I'm asking for decency and fairness and not to be singled out as a 'troublemaker' because perhaps you don't agree with my politics.

Anyway, I'm trying to handle this right:

The article in question is Karl Rove, the subject is smearing him with the McCain black child push polling incident in SCarolina in 2000.

The most authortative voice on this subject, although not entirely partial, is the McCain campaign itself. The director wrote an op ed piece in the Boston Globe (again, none of this is particularly impartial) and yet, despite the 'stacked deck' - a disgruntled campaign manager perhaps with an axe to grind, writing an opinion piece in the liberal Boston Globe...he still says this about the 'push pollng':

"We had no idea who made the phone calls, who paid for them, or how many calls were made."  He says the calls were made anonymously. That's compelling evidence. All the 'evidence' that Karl Rove was behind it are unsubstantiated rumors. And I've eliminated this piece at least a half dozen times.

Yet this piece keeps getting put back in, presumably by hippocrite who, along with the revert, cheap shots me and does not provide substantive reasoning for it's inclusion. Here's what hip said: "You are being needless combattive." And basically REFUSED to deal with the substance of my argument. It's like she's got her hands on her hips standing at the breach and, irrespective of Wikipedia rules and regulations is unilaterally trying to keep a smear in because of personal animus against me.

Now, I've put a lot of work into this and have done a lot of research and there is NOTHING....NOTHING that substantiates Rove's involvement. Same with this idea that he 'bugged' his own office. Just rumors. No proof.

So why do these useful corrections for which I did the legwork, and that I should be applauded for, keep getting reverted? Big Daddy 19:01, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

If people view you as a troublemaker, Big Daddy, it wouldn't be because of your political views but of your demonstrated preference for hostilities in dealing with other editors. I believe that since the RfC has been filed, you have gotten better and while you express your frustrations at your perceptions of liberal bias, at least you're no longer personally attacking people.

Two things: One, can you point out where it says that sources must be impartial? Reputable, yes. Notable, yes. But I don't believe partiality is a significant criteria in selecting sources. Even if it was, if your true goal is NPOV through only impartial sources, why is the word of campaign manager of McCain dismissed because he has an "axe to grind" while Karl Rove's word is taken apparently by you as "impartial"?--kizzle 19:27, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad to see you noticed I'm 'getting better.' I am still quite new afterall and didn't know what to expect although my initial gut feelings have all been confirmed. Big Daddy 23:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

3RR

I kept out of that long diatribe that alleged far more than a 3RR. I left it to the community to respond. Sometimes, the behavior of tweo parties in a dispute is NOT the same. My posts have nowhere near reached the kinds of attacks that have been lobbied against me - I've not personally attacked, I've not violated 3RR, I've not disrupted the piece to prove a point, I've not vandalized.

I only responded once, but with your comment you've in essence barred me from more responses there. I don't think it's fair or reflective of the balance of behavior in this dispute to do so - it's my only post on the entire 3RR entry, and there's a long thread of attacks that I ignored, in good faith, knowing the admins would look and make their own best judgment. I know as an admin you need to keep your focus on impartiality and improving Wikipedia - but sometimes, the behavior of each side of a dispute is NOT equal, and an equal response to both parties is unfair. Nonetheless, I do appreciate your efforts to remain neutral and 'above it'. I hope you'll continue to 'look at the facts', and assess behavior accordingly - rather than attributing equal blame as a default. -- RyanFreisling @ 15:49, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi there - I'd prefer to 'leave it lay', and try to avoid the constant return attacks underway. We'll see how that goes. The disproportionate disruption caused by each of the three editors (me, BD, PK) in this process should be readily available to those who are interested. For me, a mere 5 edits are in question - and for the editor whose edits I reverted, weeks and weeks of personal attacks are there. Arbitration seems inevitable. Thanks for your objectivity. -- RyanFreisling @ 20:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

from Paul

Katefan0,

Thanks for your refereeing last night and today. It's a great learning process for me, and a lot of fun. I'd like to let you know some of my thoughts, as a sort of "afterwards."

• First, I must make it clear that I have never requested or even hinted that I wanted anyone blocked or punished. I placed my report on that page because it was the place to place it. I think I did an admirable job juggling a debate with several people simultaneously. I kept on point, I cited policy.
• I also want to point out that I warned Ryan very early to start counting her lightning speed reverts. She was fast on the trigger, fast, fast, fast. Too fast, it turns out.
• Last night was my first 3RR report. I take complete responsibility for it, and stand behind every word of it, but also am learning how to do it better next time.
• The whole thing about how the page getting protected sort of ended the dispute was news to me -- I think I understand that now, so the actions that were taken make more sense, in that context.
• It was also news to me that a lengthy discussion on that page was not really necessary, or perhaps even warranted. For what it's worth, it caused me some confusion.
• Of course, I was expecting -- not hoping -- that the actions I was reporting would be evaluated and that a conclusion would be drawn, not punitively, but factually. I never hope someone gets nailed. I just hope that in the future the tactics I've identified are more easily identified.
• If at any point I seemed to call your actions into question, it may have been due to my confusion on some of the above points, and my misunderstanding of what you were and were not doing, and why. I respect admins, and I know they have a thankless job. But I don't kowtow, nor do I withhold questions or criticism, even in a dispute. I just try to make them fair, respectful, and on point. Please don't take it personally. I told Dmcdevit I thought his remark to me was overly harsh -- he and I sorted it out, and we both feel better. I didn't even know he was an admin -- they rarely identify themselves a such when entering into a conversation. If you feel the need to speak with me about anything I have done, you are most welcome to.

Regarding BigDaddy, I have promised Kizzle that I would try to mentor him. He is improving, and softening to my instruction, but he still has several behaviors I would like to see completely wiped away. I coach him privately on this, out of respect for his feelings, and because he is already getting piled on here. I don't want my coaching to provide others additional material -- beieve me, there are some who would do something so ugly. BigDaddy is learning fast. I think he is going to surprise a lot of people.

One of the "pilers-on" is a one-week anonymous IPer. I need you, in the interest of fairness to BD and respect for the community, to keep on eye on this person. He was trolling from page to page last night, aggressively soliciting material to use against BD. He was also piling on more complaints about BD on his RFC page. I have left some remarks on his page, here: User_talk:69.121.133.154. I would be interested in your thoughts. When I called him on his or her trolling, he suddenly stopped, but never replied. I am evaluating his comments in order to determine whether he is a sockpuppet. No one who has been around for one week is that familiar with procedure here. He clearly has an axe to grind.

Thanks for listening, kate, and for your hard work. paul klenk 21:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

BTW, I followed your instructions re the links, and it was very easy - it worked perfectly. Thanks for your training. paul klenk 00:33, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I added the RfC comment to talk pages in which BigDaddy was involved in controversy. It is not "trolling" by any means. All of the evidence I added to the RfC is perfectly valid. One of them is even BigDaddy accussing me of being Hip's sockpuppet on my own talk page. I Deeply Resent your accusations of Sock-Puppetry[5] not to mention your baseless assertion that I have "an axe to grind". I have no intention of Ever responding to your trolls on my talk page and the only reason I've even left those offensive remarks up is to document your behavior. 69.121.133.154 06:52, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Kate, to keep your page free, I have moved the above comments to the talk page this user shares, and addressed them: User_talk:69.121.133.154. I again invite your comments. paul klenk 07:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Texas Ranger Division

Hi Kate! I just wanted to let you know that I've finished the massive work I had planned on the Texas Rangers article. Enhancements are in order tho, and I'd really like you to have a look at it and improve it in any way you deem necessary. As I told you, "I have a dream that one day", we can get to see the Rangers at the Main Page ;) *Hugs*, Shauri Yes babe? 01:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Ray Nagin

Katefan-I'm not sure where to leave this, however I'm leaving it here. If it's the wrong place on your page, sorry about it. Regarding your comment on the Ray Nagin talkpage about my statement, I was trying to simply reinforce the idea that things can't be added without consensus. There are people on here who will add things to make it as POV as possible. The Nagin article has chronic problem with putting anything they wish without gaining consensus. That is why is, if you look at the history there are about 1000 reverts (ok, maybe not quite that many but it's getting close). Yes, I yelled at someone. I believe I can have someone banned, even though I can't (literally) do it on my own. I was simply trying to make a point to some of the idiots that consistantly vandalise the page. Maybe the method wasn't the best way to yell at them, but it shows how irritated I am. Anyway, I thought you might want to hear it from my perspective. Davidpdx 9/18/05 5:38 (UTC)

Ryan's latest attack on Big Daddy

"Your response is typical of the claims raised on your RfC. You avoid the patently obvious, flippantly accuse and reverse the onus of proof, and incorrecly cite policy..."

(Why is that kind of personal attack left unrebuked (especially in light of all that's happened?)

If anyone thinks I'm gonna take the bait, think again. I'm reporting it here first to give you a chance to prove my questions about your partiality wrong. But this kind of rhetoric clearly crossed the line in an already heightened atmosphere. Big Daddy (on the road)

If you took that as a personal attack, I apologize - but in my view, that was an accurate description of your prior post, in which you did exactly as I said. Again, if you took it personal attack, I apologize. I did not, however, intend it as one - and I do believe it to be a factual summary of your conduct, currently under RfC. -- RyanFreisling @ 20:45, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

That's not what she just wrote on the Karl Rove page. There she wrote: "It's not a personal attack - it's describing your bad behavior, which continues. That is not a personal attack. And I am finished feeding the troll for now. -- RyanFreisling @ 20:33, 18 September 2005 (UTC)"

Kate?? I am not responding with anything back. One thing I've learned it to report not retort and that's what I'm doing. But if I don't get any justice, then what am I supposed to do.

Is it acceptable to call someone with whom you disagree a TROLL on wikipedia? And is it something you're gonna just characterize as Ryan being 'naughty' as you have in the past and just let go? How many times does one have to endure personal attacks before one gets a remedy? And please don't suggest this is 'us two going at it again.' It is not. I have refrained and have focused on the facts at hand. Sure, we disagree. And I could have accused her of everything she's accusing me. But I am taking the high road. Just because one disagrees that doesn't mean they should be attacked like this, does it? Big Daddy (on the road.)

Blocking for personal attacks is generally discouraged unless the attack is particularly offensive, harmful or egregious (on the level of racial slurs, physical threats, etc). Feel free to open an RfC on RyanFreisling's behavior, per Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:18, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Kate, I didn't suggest any particular remedy. I merely asked if you intended on doing something about this.

If an RfC is the appropriate forum for dealing with personal attacks, do you think her repeated attacks, especially in light of the fair warnings we've ALL been given (directly from you in some cases) justify opening one? And if so, will you? Big Daddy (on the road)

What else would I possibly do but block someone? And you have my answer to that suggestion. Feel free to open an RfC, since you obviously feel mistreated. Will I open one? Of course not. I have nearly 1,000 pages on my watchlist and an armload of other tasks. I haven't personally been affected in any way, so it's not really my place to do such a thing. You must be your own advocate. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:37, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

You have 1,000 pages on your watchlist but enough time to pick a silly fight over my characterization of the WH Press Corps. Enough time to tell Ryan to give me enough rope to 'hang myself', enough time to accuse me of 'gaming the system', enough time to advocate for Ryan when she asked for your help (even though she instigated the incident by deleting my talk comments), but not enough time to help out someone brand new against the personal attacks of someone you directly admonished? If I didn't know any better, I'd...well never mind. I'll think I'll find someone who actually thinks civility is worth defending at Wikipedia. Big Daddy (on the road.)