Talk:Yasuke

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Hi! While reading the article, I see "According to other, unattributed, accounts Yasuke may have come"... If these accounts are unattributed, where do they come from ? Can't we find a source for them (contemporary or not)... If they just come from internet forum or romans, we can not take them in account... -Ash_Crow 01:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

One point of mentioning the "other, unattributed" accounts is to show how many contradictory, or clearly wrong, accounts there are about Yasuke. Look at earlier versions of the article. I meant to say "beware of what you read."

Another purpose is to make it so if someone adds something and does not attribute it, hopefully the reader will realize that it is not attributed, unlike earlier versions where there was no idea at all of what came from where, or what was supposed to be attributed or not. (Though most was wrong anyway.)

Of course, people do make attributions without checking them, such as saying that "Yasuke" was mentioned in Frois's History. I could not find any such mention in the relevant chapters, even with an index. Frois wrote a lot besides his History. And Frois did not say most of what was in the article, anywhere. Stone-turner 08:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

About a description different from the original of Japan.

"Because it was not a Japanese race, liberated it" is a bent translation.

"Because it was not a person, liberated it" is correct.

Yasuke was not recognized that human from Akechi Mitsuhide. (221.184.32.93 (talk) 01:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC))

The original was in Portuguese, and the whole was translated into Japanese in Jūroku-jūnanaseiki Iezusukai Nihon Hōkokushuu, Matsuda, Kiichi, ed., Hōdōsha, 1987-98. This is the modern, scholarly translation. The passage in the translation reads:黒人（カフレ）をいかがにすべきか問うたところ、この黒人（カフレ）は動物（ベスティアル）であって何も知らず、また日本人でもないから彼を殺さず、インドの祭司たちの教会に置くように命じた．(Vol. 3-6, p. 129) So Akechi gave two reasons.--Stone-turner (talk) 06:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, this article states that the Shinchoko-ki says Yakuke was stronger than 10 men (強力十の人に勝たり）. Did you check the Shinchokoki? I don't know what source has 100 men, but if it was written before the Shinchoko-ki (1622) I would be very interested to know what it is.--Stone-turner (talk) 06:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

この黒人（カフレ）は動物（ベスティアル）であって何も知らず - How is this part translated? It is said that it will not know anything because it is an animal (non-man). Akechi Mitsuhide saw yasuke in an aspect different from Oda Nobutada. 61.119.255.42 (talk) 04:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

People even say he will be made a 'tono' (lord)," though this did not happen.

Is this a joke? The statesmanship is necessary to become tono(lord). 61.119.255.42 (talk) 04:24, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't be obscene. I edited your above statement.

I don't know what you mean by a joke. It is a direct quote from Mexia's letter. He was in Azuchi at the time and reported what people said, which is why the statement was in quotes and the present tense. I will reword it a little.--Stone-turner (talk) 12:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

In the English page, yasuke is legend Soldier(lol

"Moreover, his strength was greater than that of 10 men."

強力（ごうりき）十の人に勝（すぐ）れたり

nobunaga praised strength of yasuke. However, yasuke does not fight against ten people.

juninriki(十人力) is not 10men power. When it is expression exaggerated a little, understand it.

Japanese has the word hyakuninriki(百人力). When the person who edited this page translates it, it will become the 100men power. However, the true meaning is "With strong help, I feel very stouthearted".

A commentary of hyakuninriki. http://kotobank.jp/word/%E7%99%BE%E4%BA%BA%E5%8A%9B

By a mistake to occur because of a literal translation, yasuke becomes a legendary soldier. 60.33.38.8 (talk) 07:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

An English page with useless yasuke as a hero.

Yasuke fought alongside the Nobutada forces for a long time but when all his comrades had died, he surrendered his sword to Akechi's men.

Is yasuke the only survivor in the fight? Do not make an impressive false story. 220.106.175.174 (talk) 05:51, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

To an English editor and people seeing this page.

yasuke is not evaluated historically in Japan. The reason is because he was worthless. yasuke does not have an impressive event in a fight. It is only it that he was defeated by the akechi forces. There is no useful description in yasuke as an aide of nobunaga.

However, the people of the English zone seem to want to change Yasuke to the hero. Please be careful about the impressions of this page. A false script with yasuke as a hero is added.220.106.175.174 (talk) 06:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

The Yasuke/black people was identified with Buddha in Japan and was admired. Information disgusted with is on this page a lot.

Please submit the information that yasuke was admired like Buddha.

Please show a source of information where a black people was praised as Buddha in Japan.

The Japanese book seems to be shown as a source of information. However, it is obvious that it is not a mainstream thought. The words that akechi said to yasuke are famous. Yasuke is a beast(not Buddha).

Does the Westerner believe this information? They attach a plausible reason from the source of information of the doubt and recite an unrealistic made-up story.220.106.175.174 (talk) 07:03, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I edited the first sentence to make it clear

I hope no one has a problem with this, but I corrected this clause in the first sentence from this:

"...a black ( Erroneously thought of as African, or of African origin) retainer who was in the duke of the Japanese hegemon and warlord Oda Nobunaga between 1581 and 1582."

to this retainer of the Japanese hegemon and warlord Oda Nobunaga between 1581 and 1582."

Best regards TheBaron0530 (talk) 13:58, 21 June 2016 (UTC)theBaron0530

To add to article

To add to this article: is there a film about Yasuke that is in production as of early 2020? 76.189.141.37 (talk) 21:05, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Samurai

Pinging Havsjö and Natemup. Please use this space to discuss the merits of describing Yasuke as a samurai instead of relying on edit summaries. Havsjö, will you please self-revert your most recent edit? It was your fourth reversion in 24 hours, breaking WP:3RR. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:18, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I've re-added the samurai reference (which was almost certainly removed at point in the past, perhaps as an act of vandalism), with multiple reliable sources. natemup (talk) 20:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Sourced samurai reference is now being removed without explanation by an anonymous editor. natemup (talk) 03:08, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Natemup: I have reverted your edit. Please locate better sources. Geoffrey Girard is a novelist who almost certainly doesn't read Japanese, classical Chinese, or even Portuguese or Latin. Naima Mohamud is a filmmaker who AFAICT is similarly unqualified to write about these matters. What's worse, the titles of those two sources strongly imply you just Googled "African samurai" to locate sources that could be used as a pretext to write what you already wanted to write rather than honestly and accurately reflecting how our subject is described in the best scholarly sources. This practice, which demands that anyone seeking to remove dubiously sourced factual claims somehow prove a negative, turns WP:BURDEN on its head. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:14, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

In fact, one could Google anything about Yasuke and virtually every result would refer to him as a samurai. It seems extremely odd to be this pedantic about a claim found in virtually every source already used in the article. natemup (talk) 03:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@Natemup: "almost certainly vandalism"? Please retract that personal attack immediately. Anyway, as I have explained on my talk page, "samurai" is a somewhat loaded term, and whether this subject "was a samurai" (or "Samurai" as this article has written it quite often in the past) kinda misses the point. A popular source, even one written by someone with a PhD in a relevant field, is not reliable for this material if it does not address these matters. If we take "samurai" as a generic term for "warrior" or "soldier" then it's a truism that Yasuke was a samurai, but this is not worth mentioning; if we take it to mean someone who was born or adopted into one of the buke families of pre-modern Japan, then it's a truism that Yasuke was not a samurai and you won't find any scholar who argues otherwise. But if you are going to persist in name-calling, such questions are irrelevant as I don't want to discuss the matter with anyone who doesn't abide by WP:CIVIL. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:11, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know why you assume that was directed at you. It was my understanding that the term was removed from the article at some point in the distant past and I didn't care to find out who it was. But you seem to have outed yourself here with that very stringent definition that is alien to the dictionary. By nature of his being a retainer in the Oda clan under a daimyo, Yasuke was a samurai. natemup (talk) 11:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Anon continues to vandalize the page with original research and biased edits. natemup (talk) 23:22, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I don't know any anon: I was invited to keep an eye this article by User:Goszei, and it was my edit that you reverted with the edit summary The removal of this term from the article was almost certainly vandalism. Moreover, at the end of every calendar month in 2020 the lead sentence described him as a "retainer" with a link to affinity (medieval), which unlike "samurai" is not a loaded term that implies an unverifiable (but likely wrong/anachronistic) conclusion: the present "samurai" debate seems to have been initiated in mid-February with this edit; accusing someone, even an editor who doesn't have an account (!), let alone someone with ten times your edit count over a period twice as long, of "vandalism" because said editors joined User:Havsjö in undoing your unilateral and WP:BOLD edit is simply unacceptable, and you need to stop doing it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:13, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

And no, the fact that your initial BOLD edit stood for almost two weeks before someone else happened to notice the problem and changed it a third option does not make your edit the WP:STATUSQUO and said third option "bold". @Havsjö and Goszei: What would you say to restoring the lead sentence's "status quo ante bellum"? That he was a "retainer" of Nobunaga is plainly true and is probably the only verifiable fact about him, and my problem with "samurai" is that it's a vague term that typically is used as a translation of buke, and he almost certainly was not a buke, but how about you? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:24, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry! It seems the original was a straight revert and the "man" thing originated with this edit more than a month later. "Samurai" appears to have stayed out of the lead sentence until very recently, when the bogus "former samurai" was added. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

The initial insertion of original research appears to have been in March 2019, when an idiosyncratic definition of "samurai" occasioned the removal of the term from the article. No source used then or now supports that change. Again, virtually every source used (and extant) calls Yasuke a samurai, which he was by dictionary definition as a retainer under a daimyo. It is quite literally the very warp and woof of his notability, of which I'm sure every editor involved is aware. And it has nothing to do with "Afrocentrism", as has been vandalistically added to the article as of late (in reference to a bunch of White dudes and the bloody BBC). I know Wikipedia has processes for resolving these kinds of conflicts, though I have not yet resorted to them. Choose your next step wisely. natemup (talk) 11:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are talking about, but my definition of samurai comes from Kōjien for the Japanese meaning(s) and Merriam-Webster for the English meaning; neither of them support the edit you started unilaterally pushing in February. Going back to early 2019 to establish the "status quo" would be highly questionable by itself, but going back into the page's earlier history the opening sentence doesn't appear to have used the word "samurai" on December 31 of 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:48, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

You're picking arbitrary dates. The article began by calling him a samurai, and has referred to him as such at various points since. I was restoring a previous version that should supersede later (and unilateral, undiscussed) edits that were based on original research and a definition not found in any source used in the article. Merriam-Webster states that a samurai is a retainer under a daimyo, which throughout this dispute the article has unequivocally claimed Yasuke to be (based on the exact same sources that say he was a samurai). natemup (talk) 17:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Natemup, I haven't looked at the sources in-depth, but I am so far inclined to agree with you that the lead should describe Yasuke as a samurai. The body could note that there is some disagreement on the matter. I also agree that "Afro-centric" was a bizarre and POV statement to add.

That said, your most recent revert was a violation of WP:3RR and I urge you to self-revert. I also don't believe the recent IP edits to be vandalism, though I am frustrated that they are not participating in talk page discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:48, 6 May 2021 (UTC) Struck because I'm bad at counting.

From what I can see, I haven't made more than 3 reverts in the last 24 hours. natemup (talk) 18:16, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

You're totally right! Struck. You may want to reach out to the IPs to demonstrate that you're trying to avoid an edit war. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:22, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Response to Natemup's response to me: I'm not picking arbitrary dates. I'm trying to establish that for most of this article's history the word "samurai" was not used in the opening sentence, because that is the WP:STATUSQUO that should remain intact pending consensus to the contrary. You are picking arbitrary dates that support your position. Meanwhile, the fact that the article used the word samurai when it was first started is completely immaterial because it was created in the bad old days when Wikipedia was "elementary and often wrong". That said, the earliest version of this article was actually superior to your version since it didn't begin "○○ was a samurai" but rather clarifies that he was born in Africa and became a "samurai" (i.e., it makes clear from its opening line that it is using a definition of "samurai" that allows one to become such without being born into it or even being born on the same continent). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:25, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

The "Afro-centric" bit was indeed bizarre and POV, and should not be re-added. I advise that parties comment further in the section break below, while the version I have restored remains in place. Please keep discussion strictly to the content at hand. — Goszei (talk) 01:54, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Section break

I think this discussion needs a reset. Could both parties please present the sources for their position in this thread? I believe that Hijiri is correct on the procedural point of status quo, which should stay in place while we have this discussion, but let us please put that aside for the moment and grind down on the sources so we can sort this out. Proposed versions of the lead/body sections with citations would be appreciated. — Goszei (talk) 01:17, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I believe I have now restored a version of the lead with a suitable claim to the "status quo ante bellum". I have retained several changes to the body made in the interim that are unrelated to the current dispute. — Goszei (talk) 01:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• I don't think sources are necessary for a negative statement on a talk page per WP:BURDEN, but:
  • OED defines "samurai" as A member of a powerful military caste in feudal Japan.[1],
  • Collins defines it as In former times, a samurai was a member of a powerful class of fighters in Japan.[2],
  • MW defines it as the warrior aristocracy of Japan[3] (it also seems to have changed since I last checked, as it now includes the obviously highly problematic definition a military retainer of a Japanese daimyo practicing the code of conduct of Bushido as well, and the fact that neither Oxford nor Collins gives this definition implies it is the less common), and
  • the commentary track on the Hong Kong Legends DVD of Moon Warriors distinguishes "samurai" from a similar Chinese term by referring to samurai as a "class" (I am not saying this is a reliable scholarly source, but rather that it is reflective of the popular/colloquial understanding of the word in question).
    • All of these imply that the English word "samurai" corresponds to the Japanese word 武家 more than the modern colloquial sense of the false friend 侍 (i.e., "a warrior" or "a soldier"), so Japanese-language sources that refer to our subject as a 黒人侍 are not reliable for the claim that he "was a samurai" in the common English sense, and English-language sources that translate 黒人侍 as "Black samurai" or "African samurai" are therefore mistranslations.
  • There's also this blog entry that compiles quotations from / summaries of the surviving primary sources (sorry, but covid is preventing me from going to libraries or museums, especially ones outside Osaka -- the same is, of course, true for everyone else involved in these discussions, so all we have is what we have on hand and what we can dig up online, and whether we trust that they are not misquoting anything is a matter of faith). None of them describe this person as a 侍, 武士, 武家, 士, or other such term; he is referred to repeatedly as a "Black slave" (using Japanese that I don't think I should repeat in polite company -- Ctrl+F "を見", and it's the two characters before that), or as a 黒坊主 (which may be similarly problematic, but I can't figure out how to translate, since 坊主 could mean an abbot, a monk, a young boy, a bald person, a master of some art or field of learning, a guy who serves in a castle in some super-complicated capacity...[4]).

I have yet to see any reliable source in either English or Japanese that explicitly addresses the problem of whether our subject was granted a title as a member of feudal Japan's military aristocracy ("the samurai") or he was a strong man who served under Nobunaga. The fact that he does not seem to have been given a surname, and that he seems to have been returned to the the Christians after the Honnoji Incident, strongly imply the latter. This is, of course, not to say that it's not okay to address the question in our article if reliable sources can be located, or to clarify somewhere in the article what we mean by "samurai" and then use it under that definition, but to say in the opening sentence that "Yasuke was a [member of the military aristocracy of feudal Japan]" is highly problematic.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I have little knowledge in this area, but I will offer some quotes and summarization from a copy I obtained of Lockley and Girard's African Samurai book, which explains their working definition of samurai:

• At Yasuke’s time the samurai formed the ruling class and almost anybody of note in Japanese society was a samurai. The rest, for the most part, aspired to be. [...] [However], [t]he samurai, as an identifiable class, had not started out this way.
• It then says that the Genpei War allowed samurai to advance from simple instruments of war and tax-collection muscle to the ruling class.
• On the Sengoku period: the endless battles took their toll on the limited ranks of the traditional samurai families, and many daimyō lords decided they needed to expand their armies. Gone were the days when a few hundred highly trained, magnificently attired samurai squared off against each other with swords in battle. By Yasuke’s era, the armies were tens of thousands strong and the need for cheap soldiers had provisionally overridden the need to keep peasants exclusively growing rice.
• Many of the peasants now found themselves receiving regular wages and better arms from their lords and they held an ambiguous dual status as farmers and lower-ranking samurai, known as ashigaru. (The key difference from traditional samurai being that ashigaru were not normally permanently retained, nor did they hold fiefs.) [...] Thus, following The Age of the Country at War, there was no shortage of “samurai” in Japan. Hundreds of thousands, perhaps up to half a million, could have claimed the epithet, though few would have any real family pedigree beyond the last couple of generations in the elite warrior world. A daimyō could call upon both direct personal retainers such as Yasuke, and part-time ashigaru warriors to swell his ranks.
• It is not known exactly which rank Yasuke held, but it would probably have been equivalent to hatamoto. The hatamoto saw to the lord’s needs, handling everything from finance to transport, communications to trade. They were also the bodyguards and pages to the warlord, traveling with him and spending their days in his company.

It primarily calls Yasuke a samurai, and a few times calls him a "samurai retainer". — Goszei (talk) 04:15, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Note: Lockley is the sole expert quoted in the following news stories currently used: BBC 2019, The Japan Times 2019, and CNN 2019. USAToday 2021 also cites Lockley liberally, and also cites once "Jeff Taylor" (who self-published his book, no good). — Goszei (talk) 04:36, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Concerning the matter at hand—that of sources, rather than cherry-picked dictionary entries—virtually every source cited in the article refers to Yasuke as a samurai. Full stop. It is literally the reason the article was created and is the warp and woof of Yasuke's significance. This has been obscured by an unsourced edit from 2019 that insisted on a hereditary definition of "samurai"—which is one of at least two, the other of which was cited above (and swiftly no-true-Scotsman'ed) by Hijiri. And lest anyone be misled, the article has been categorized under ~"foreign samurai" throughout this entire brouhaha, since well before I ever got involved, indicating the original state of the article before vandalism took hold. Hijiri has also deemed what would be considered a reliable source on any other article as unreliable here, even scholars whose work is *already* cited in the article without controversy. Thus three additional reliable sources I added have been removed, while the obvious original research seen above from Hijiri is being represented in the article at present without justification. natemup (talk) 04:28, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

and swiftly no-true-Scotsman'ed Wait, what? Please focus on content. I was quite clear that if we want to use the broader (Japanese) definition of "samurai" as meaning "soldier" or "servant", we can, but not in the lead sentence and not without comment, because (i) that is not how the word is conventionally used in English (as per its being unattested in most major dictionaries) and (ii) that is not how it is defined in the lead of the linked article. (If you are talking about how I called the definition "obviously highly problematic": it is a truism that Yasuke could not have "practic[ed] the code of conduct of Bushido" since said "code" was essentially invented around 300 years after Yasuke's death.[5])

Anyway, would you mind me asking how you would define "samurai"? If we know what those who want the word "samurai" to be used in the lead sentence want the meaning of this to be, I think that would help in figuring out a compromise, as I am only now getting the feeling we have been talking past each other and you have not been trying to make the claim that Yasuke was a member of the military aristocracy.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Slave or Servant

Because of the ambiguity in whether he was a slave or a servant, I removed the categories that mention him as slave. Thoughts?Manabimasu (talk) 22:32, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Good idea. I'm sure it was from an old version of the page. natemup (talk) 22:40, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Lockley 2016, Lockley 2017, and Lockley 2019?

I have some questions about these. Amazon says Lockley 2017 is close to 300 pages in Japanese, so it's a little hard to believe that it could be a translation of Lockley 2016, which is less than 40 pages -- can someone identify the English version and replace the citations? I understand that WP:NONENG prioritizes a reliable source text in a foreign language over a possibly mistaken translation into English, so all the more we should almost never cite a translation of a text originally written in English. Lockley 2019, while I appreciate that it is not cited anywhere in the article, it appears based on its co-authors' resumes to be a work of historical fiction, and is therefore inappropriate even for a further reading section -- the article includes an "In popular culture" section for that reason. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:27, 7 May 2021 (UTC)