Talk:History of concubinage in the Muslim world: Difference between revisions
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:Since you've drawn my attention to this talk page entry @[[User:Toddy1|Toddy1]], I'd note that the content on and a number of other pointed subjects in the article comes almost exclusively from Kecia Ali, who is a specialist in Islamic gender studies. Two points here: one, while Kecia Ali is an entirely appropriate expert source, again, as mentioned by @[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] in relation to other themes, there is definitely some cherry-picking of Ali's rather nuanced analysis on this subject. Also, while Kecia Ali is an expert, if larger sections of the page are relying largely or solely on Ali, we need to be careful that there isn't [[WP:UNDUE]] emphasis on Ali's academic take. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 08:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC) |
:Since you've drawn my attention to this talk page entry @[[User:Toddy1|Toddy1]], I'd note that the content on and a number of other pointed subjects in the article comes almost exclusively from Kecia Ali, who is a specialist in Islamic gender studies. Two points here: one, while Kecia Ali is an entirely appropriate expert source, again, as mentioned by @[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] in relation to other themes, there is definitely some cherry-picking of Ali's rather nuanced analysis on this subject. Also, while Kecia Ali is an expert, if larger sections of the page are relying largely or solely on Ali, we need to be careful that there isn't [[WP:UNDUE]] emphasis on Ali's academic take. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 08:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::Yes. The problem is caused by ''Google-reading'', where people do not read the books they cite, but merely read odd sentences or part-sentences that appear on a Google search.<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">--[[User:Toddy1| Toddy1]] [[User talk:Toddy1|(talk)]]</span> 08:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC) |
::Yes. The problem is caused by ''Google-reading'', where people do not read the books they cite, but merely read odd sentences or part-sentences that appear on a Google search.<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">--[[User:Toddy1| Toddy1]] [[User talk:Toddy1|(talk)]]</span> 08:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Indeed, as Toddy1 said. As the bibliography impresses on us, there is a huge literature out there, and whenever I have checked it item by item, I see a large swathe of subtle and nuanced argument reduced to the 'juicy' parts. Historical anthropology should be our model. Many of our modern categories carry different implications back, anachronistically, into the past. 'Women for sexual use' implies some captured woman under lock and key, taken out for abuse and then shut back in a kind of improvised permanent brothel quarter in patriarchal houses, as 'sex slaves' per dozens of modern films on sexual trafficking. Of course, we must be on guard against blinking in embarrassment, or reversing the bias here by suppressing facts that embarrass modern values. So we need to define the title, ergo, scope of a very complex set of historical realities. Above all though, hard work - a careful focused reading of the sources in so far as we can access them. [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 09:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC) |
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== This new edit == |
== This new edit == |
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The discussion of consent in this article is confused
The claim that men could only have sex with his concubine if she consented is nonsensical. "Consent" with regard to sexual intercourse is a modern concept, and it's impossible for a slave to consent to something her master does to her. Even if a slave expressed consent, the power relationship would render it meaningless.
If, on the other hand, you wants to claim that "consent" here refers to a pre-modern Islamic concept, you need to identify what that concept is. There isn't one, and nor should we expect to find one, since it would contradict the basic definition of slavery, which is the right of one person to control another.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jb212 (talk • contribs) 18:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
- Since you've drawn my attention to this talk page entry @Toddy1, I'd note that the content on and a number of other pointed subjects in the article comes almost exclusively from Kecia Ali, who is a specialist in Islamic gender studies. Two points here: one, while Kecia Ali is an entirely appropriate expert source, again, as mentioned by @Nishidani in relation to other themes, there is definitely some cherry-picking of Ali's rather nuanced analysis on this subject. Also, while Kecia Ali is an expert, if larger sections of the page are relying largely or solely on Ali, we need to be careful that there isn't WP:UNDUE emphasis on Ali's academic take. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes. The problem is caused by Google-reading, where people do not read the books they cite, but merely read odd sentences or part-sentences that appear on a Google search.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, as Toddy1 said. As the bibliography impresses on us, there is a huge literature out there, and whenever I have checked it item by item, I see a large swathe of subtle and nuanced argument reduced to the 'juicy' parts. Historical anthropology should be our model. Many of our modern categories carry different implications back, anachronistically, into the past. 'Women for sexual use' implies some captured woman under lock and key, taken out for abuse and then shut back in a kind of improvised permanent brothel quarter in patriarchal houses, as 'sex slaves' per dozens of modern films on sexual trafficking. Of course, we must be on guard against blinking in embarrassment, or reversing the bias here by suppressing facts that embarrass modern values. So we need to define the title, ergo, scope of a very complex set of historical realities. Above all though, hard work - a careful focused reading of the sources in so far as we can access them. Nishidani (talk) 09:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes. The problem is caused by Google-reading, where people do not read the books they cite, but merely read odd sentences or part-sentences that appear on a Google search.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
This new edit
This new edit by Wiqi55 removes the passage's longstanding sourced words "and she detested him"
and replaces it with the following irrelevant words "but she later chose to return to her husband and cousin."
The fact that this woman returned is already conveyed in the final paragraph of the section Women of Hawazin wherein it is stated "Likewise, the girls given to Talha, Uthman, Ibn Umar and Safwan bin Umayya were also returned to their families."
I will shift Wiqi55's extra detail next to this sentence. It makes more sense to include that Zaynab chose to return to her husband when the text talks about the return of the women instead of the part of the text which describes Muslim soldiers having sex with their captives earlier. But I see no rationale for removing the words "she detested him"
when the sex is being discussed. It merely shows that Zaynab detested Uthman who had sex with her. That is also how it appears in the cited source wherein it states "Uthman had intercourse with her and she detested him.
The addition of the fact that this woman chose to return to her husband and cousin only strengthens the fact that she detested Uthman, for if she liked the man who had sex with her, she would not have chosen to return to her husband. Mcphurphy (talk) 09:51, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- What you're saying is a textbook example of WP:SYNTH: "If Waqidi says A, and Ibn Ishaq says B, then let us combine A and B to make C -- i.e., she both detested him and preferred her cousin!" That's original research. Instead, we need to attribute each statement inline with wp:due. As I explained in my edit summary, Ibn Ishaq's version is notable and quoted by many later historians (I cited one). To determine weight, could you cite a secondary source referring to Waqidi's "detest"?
- Moreover, you're probably not familiar with Arabic otherwise you would've known that Waqidi is just using a term often used in the context of divorce. See, for example, how Waqidi uses detest to describe a woman who divorced many husbands.[1] It is also used for rejecting a marriage proposal. It doesn't imply any of the negative nuances of detest, like "loath" or "extreme hate". Wiqi(55) 23:38, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- No but this edit of yours certainly falls under WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. The Waqidi source says categorially that Zaynab detested Uthman (whether that was in the context of women wanting to divorce/leave her sexual partner or having extreme hate is irrelevant and is your own original research - which is prohibited). Instead of following the source as it is worded, what you are doing is removing the second part of the sentence sourced from Waqidi and taking another source (Ibn Ishaq) and mixing its words with the first half of the sentence from Waqidi to produce a meaningless sentence which reads
"Uthman had sexual intercourse with her but she later chose to return to her husband and cousin."
with the aim of obfuscating the fact that Zaynab did not like the man who had sex with her. Mcphurphy (talk) 04:11, 17 July 2021 (UTC)- The source in the diff clearly supports both parts of the sentence; you probably can't read Arabic or don't know how use Google Translate. You also shouldn't present Waqidi's statement as corroborating Ibn Ishaq's because that's original research. It is equally possible to think of these statements as contradictory or a paraphrase -- Ibn Ishaq is often considered the source of Waqidi. The part you claim is about having sex actually also includes Ibn Umar's journey and return of his captive. Furthermore, I didn't cite Ibn Ishaq directly. I cited an annotated biography of Zaynab written by a later historian. Thus the notability of Ibn Ishaq's statement is supported by a secondary source. By contrast, the "detest" claim is not deemed notable by anybody except you. You even admitted above that you have no idea what exactly Waqidi means by it. Wiqi(55) 06:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- Greetings, Came across this Q&A regarding same issue. It seems according to other versions 'Zaynab bint Hayyan' seems to have liking for some one else and decided to return; even in that case practice of taking women captive allotting them as a war booty, treating them like property and enforcing sexual relations sans explicit consent it's not that the fellows did not know of concept of consent at all, in official marriage consent is asked 3 times but if it is case of captive women consent is not asked fails to generate due ethical confidence. Ex–Muslims are already raising these questions some of their literature will get through reliable academic sources it is just matter of time.
- Hence transparency only would be best policy. Whatever number of 'related' primary sources are there present them in original Arabic language, then provide word by word translation and then provide secondary source commentaries. Then let the audience decide how to formulate and render the available information in the encyclopedia.
- Thanks and warm regards
- Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:46, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- The source in the diff clearly supports both parts of the sentence; you probably can't read Arabic or don't know how use Google Translate. You also shouldn't present Waqidi's statement as corroborating Ibn Ishaq's because that's original research. It is equally possible to think of these statements as contradictory or a paraphrase -- Ibn Ishaq is often considered the source of Waqidi. The part you claim is about having sex actually also includes Ibn Umar's journey and return of his captive. Furthermore, I didn't cite Ibn Ishaq directly. I cited an annotated biography of Zaynab written by a later historian. Thus the notability of Ibn Ishaq's statement is supported by a secondary source. By contrast, the "detest" claim is not deemed notable by anybody except you. You even admitted above that you have no idea what exactly Waqidi means by it. Wiqi(55) 06:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- No but this edit of yours certainly falls under WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. The Waqidi source says categorially that Zaynab detested Uthman (whether that was in the context of women wanting to divorce/leave her sexual partner or having extreme hate is irrelevant and is your own original research - which is prohibited). Instead of following the source as it is worded, what you are doing is removing the second part of the sentence sourced from Waqidi and taking another source (Ibn Ishaq) and mixing its words with the first half of the sentence from Waqidi to produce a meaningless sentence which reads
- I agree with Wiqi55. There must be reliable secondary sources for every statement in this article, and if there are none, then it should be omitted. Using Waqidi as a source is problematic (see Al-Waqidi#Critics).VR talk 18:58, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
Neutrality template
I wonder if the neutrality of this article is, perhaps, questioned only because it is a controversial subject, which can clearly be seen in its edit history, as it is often vandalized and clearly arouse emotions - rather than being actually lacking in neutrality. Perhaps the neutrality template should be removed, if it only there because of people with bias? I have no idea if this assumption is true or not; I just thought I should mention it, because of the emotional edit history and consistent vandalization of the article.--Aciram (talk) 11:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- I agree. It seems in /Archive 3, which contains conversation that took place at the time this template was added, that there is contention about whether the article should use "sexual slavery" or "concubinage" in the title, so someone may have added the template to indicate that a dispute was underway. However, when someone slaps the template onto an article without explaining why on the talk page, this can be considered drive-by tagging and it can be removed. I am removing it. ~Anachronist (talk) 13:33, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- This article does have serious neutrality (and even some WP:SYNTH) issues. It was not merely drive-by editing, I think I placed the template and I explained in great detail why I did. Those issues are still not resolved.VR talk 01:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- On side note: If neutrality and reflecting on imperfections are good values then open encyclopedias should become religion and religion should become open encyclopedia, probably that would be better way to resolve such disputes Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- If you question the neutrality of the article, you should explain why. The issue here is, that people with a religious bias may want to question the neutrality simply because they feel certain information place their religion in bad light, even if it is correct information. I don't know what the syaing above is suppose to mean, but religious bias should be kept away from this article as well as every article here. The neutrality of these articles are always in danger from religious bias. There shall be no re-definition of what neutrality is, and certainly not to a definition that say religious bias should be redefined to mean neutrality. --Aciram (talk) 03:30, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- I do fully agree with you, when religious bias fails to reflect internally then likely to blame others for being biased. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- This article does have serious neutrality (and even some WP:SYNTH) issues. It was not merely drive-by editing, I think I placed the template and I explained in great detail why I did. Those issues are still not resolved.VR talk 01:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
@Aciram: sure here is a non-exhaustive list of reasons:
- The article name (and subsequent terminology) is biased. We have overwhelming evidence that WP:SCHOLARSHIP prefers the term "concubinage" to "sexual slavery" when describing this phenomenon. I gave examples from around 40 (that's right, 40!) scholarly sources (published by BRILL, Yale University Press, Harvard University Press etc). See this and this. But the response was that the authors of these scholarly sources "
happen to be Muslim themselves and want to put the most positive spin on it as they can, so they choose to use a more sanitized, yet less accurate term
". The idea that we should dismiss scholarly sources because they are authors happen to be Muslims is ridiculous (and possibly even Islamophobic). - The article gives WP:UNDUE weight to historical instances that WP:RS hardly talk about (as Wiqi55 alluded in above discussion). The article goes into detail about a story for which reliable, secondary sources can't even be found.
- This article only contains certain POVs but omits other very significant POVs. For example, it has a section on forced conversion but fails to mention the most important Quranic verse on this matter (and well covered by RS). Another example was discussed here about how the article selectively quotes certain opinions on dress prescriptions but omits others.
- As shown here the article WP:CHERRYPICKs sources.VR talk 04:44, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- My first contention is etymologically word Concubine meant 'inferior wife' (Islam has no concept of Inferior wife all wives ought to be equal so Concubine is an un–Islamic Bidʻah term Pl. read again) , but if any given religion allows unrestrained polygamy Concubine amounts to be wife, inferior though. For this article what happens in other religion is immaterial.
- In the religion under discussion first relationship categorisation happens one basis of Mahram or non–Mahram. Then a relationship is halal(licit) or haram (illicit), in halal (licit) relationships a woman can be a wife if not wife then Umm Walad slave, who is not Umm Walad slave but slave in sexual relationship until she bears a child she is plain Sex slave, then there would be a category of female slaves without maintaining sexual relationship but owner of 'female property' has right to create a relationship with her any time so such female slave amounts to be slave available for sexual slavery. Some one is wife or sexually available slave, there is no scope for any concubine (inferior wife) in the religion under discussion. One more category of freed i.e. emancipated slaves is their but that is in a way 'previously available–Sex slaves'.
- As discussed earlier, concept of marital consent is very expressively available for wife in the religion under discussion, the same explicit religious provision of consent is not seen for sexually available slave women. So for just being politically right usage of word Concubine does not seem to make any sense and any scholarship doing so becomes dubious scholarship.
- Last but not least, though " 'theoretically effective practically implemented, Sexual slavery', very well existed in the religion under discussion", on some other count as I have discussed elsewhere is Sexual slavery in Muslim societies better title since as per religious diktat a 'non–slave Muslim woman' is not supposed to be salable, but there are several instances (available with reliable sources) where in Muslim individuals and communities have been observed to have indulged in enslavement of Muslim women too without properly bothering about what their religion says. So it is unfair and untruthful not to use wording sexual slavery where it deserves similarly it would be more fair to use term Sexual slavery in Muslim societies.
- Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 11:01, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Booku just gave an original research explanation concluding with "
usage of word Concubine does not seem to make any sense and any scholarship doing so becomes dubious scholarship
." So basically any WP:RS that disagrees with Bookku's personal POV is "dubious". Remember I provided 40 sources here and here. I'm hoping Anachronist, who is an admin (and removed the neutrality template) can chime in.VR talk 16:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC) - @Vice regent: I removed the template because could not find any archived comments about placing it. All I found was discussion about 'concubinage' that seemed to have ended. Now that the dispute has resumed, the template should stay until it is resolved. I am not a party to this dispute and have not formed any view one way or the other.
- It seems to me that 'concubinage' is a subset of 'sexual slavery' and that many sources in this article discuss exactly the title of this article as it currently stands, so 'sexual slavery in Islam' seems to be a valid article topic, as does 'concubinage in Islam'. Perhaps a split into two topics is in order? Or is there too much overlap between them? ~Anachronist (talk) 20:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Booku just gave an original research explanation concluding with "
- It's kind of circular argument. First of all which sources are reliable is subjective & open for deliberations by Wikipedians hence in Wikipedia talk page discussions Wikipedians do have right to express why any particular set of sources do not match encyclopedic expectations. This has been done by User:Vice regent/VR too on several occasions in other article discussions, even on narrow scope of some one being of particular religious or continental background or not. So there is nothing wrong if users in previous discussions thought of VR cited sources to be biased being soft cornering particular religious view.
- It is just not matter of personal PoV, Usage of term Concubinage too is sexual exploitation since status of the woman is not equal to the wife, but slave's sexual exploitation is much more. There are more differences between slave and concubine but main is relationship of concubine is more likely to be consensual and in sex slavery consent is missing or under duress.
- Usage of term 'Concubine' only covers only a minuscule minority of those slave women who willingly ended up in elite Sultan's Harems Simple etymology search on google indicates word Harem comes from Arabic ḥaram, ḥarīm, literally ‘prohibited', So if a Concubine is given equal treatment to wife then it's likely to be a Haram deal. So Harem concubines remained slaves only without freewill.
- Besides word concubine is injustice by playing down experiences of vast majority of war captivated compulsively enslaved female slaves who suffered innumerable atrocities. Word 'Concubine' also does not cover status of female slaves un til they end in final buyer's hand.
- Those who took war captives to final dealer every one sexually exploited them. Female slaves were not only exhibited naked but buyers used to literally freely manhandle them in the name of checking their body parts. Until a female captive reaches in hands of final buyer and he successfully impregnates her what is the status of female slave other than a Sex slave?
- Why do we underplay the reality through our untruth. Do you use word Concubine for 'male slaves'? if not then why play down sexual exploitation of female slaves? How any sensible mind can undermine experiences of sexual exploitation of vast majiority and still be classified as scholar is incomprehensible.
- For example 'Sigeh' in Nikah mut'ah is religiously remains equal wife. But when in any country government restrains polygamy and still a long term consensual relationship takes place is religiously a marriage but as per law of monogamous country can amount to be concubine relationship being illegal. Indirectly this will help understand difference between concubinage and sex slavery.
- In the religion under discussion concubinage undermines equal rights of the wife so is illicit but same time Sexual slavery is licit since it denies equal rights to sexual slave.
- Now whether to defend Sexual exploitation with apologetic and polemics or not and if yes by citing which rules is for every one's own conscience.
- As of now I leave this discussion, let others take care.
- By the way you seem to be good @ defining what is reliable source and researching so just pl. do help in expanding Draft:Slavery in Mecca and Medina that article deserves support from like of yours. Happy editing.
- @Anachronist: you're right that sexual slavery has many forms: female concubines, forced prostitution, child sexual abuse (including child pornography), sexual slavery of men, rape (including wartime rape), sex trafficking etc. Muslims, who constitute 25% of the human race, have undoubtedly engaged in each of these practices. But I don't see reliable sources treating considering sexual slavery by Muslims as a coherent topic. Instead, WP:RS specifically refer to the institution that they call "concubinage", which only includes male masters entering into a polygynous relationship with their female slaves. WP:RS also treat specific examples of sexual slavery by Muslims (Bacha bazi, Rochdale child sex abuse ring, Kasur child sexual abuse scandal etc) but they don't make this out into a grand topic of "sexual slavery by Muslims".VR talk 21:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- There is definitely not enough consensus for keeping the neutrality template. Removed. --Grufo (talk) 15:45, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- The template should remain until neutrality issues are resolved.VR talk 15:48, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- As things stand now it is not proved that neutrality issues exist at all. That template has been inserted more than one year ago. Have you tried to address what you consider to be an issue during this year? --Grufo (talk) 15:50, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I have, through discussion, and others clearly have too. Just look at the discussions on this talk page, neutrality is always a factor in them.VR talk 15:53, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- From your "list of neutrality issues" I read:
- Page title – the issue (that you had raised) has finally been solved
- Undue – From reading the discussion you don't explain what is undue, and when you do explain it your opinion does not find consensus
- "Not enough POVs" – the page should have as few POVs as possible
- Source cherrypicking – You have been quite active in inserting sources into the article (#1, #2, #3 – the list goes on, but I don't have time to through all your edits). Either this issue is solved, or it never existed, or you are the one who cherrypicks – by the way, I am pretty sure that you do cherrypick: your sources (or your source removals) tend often to go towards an apologetic view of the phenomenon.
- In my opinion after more than one year of failing to find consensus for its presence that template must be removed ASAP. --Grufo (talk) 16:21, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- From your "list of neutrality issues" I read:
- Yes, I have, through discussion, and others clearly have too. Just look at the discussions on this talk page, neutrality is always a factor in them.VR talk 15:53, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- As things stand now it is not proved that neutrality issues exist at all. That template has been inserted more than one year ago. Have you tried to address what you consider to be an issue during this year? --Grufo (talk) 15:50, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- The template should remain until neutrality issues are resolved.VR talk 15:48, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- There is definitely not enough consensus for keeping the neutrality template. Removed. --Grufo (talk) 15:45, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Page already exists on the same topic
There is already a page covering the same topic named Concubinage in Islam. In arabic the word, Suriyya refers to both sexual slavery as well as concubinage. Moreover, according to Islam, only a slave can be called a concubine and any other form of concubinage is prohibited. the page referred above is more racially and religiously neutral though lacks a few topics.
- Regards,
- Wikiedit01995 talk
- That is not correct. This page title is neutral. Since Islam is not a race, we should not act as if it is. Wikipedia should be neutral, thus it must be possible to write about a negative subject within any religion, even if that may cause negative feelings.
- The article Concubinage in Islam does not cover the subject of this article. While it is indeed true that concubines were sex slaves, not all slaves who were subjected to sexual abuse were concubines. Courtesans, musicians, singers, dancers and maidservants were all slaves, but they were not concubines and could only be covered very briefly in Concubinage in Islam.
- Concubinage in Islam does not cover all subjects covered in this article, but we cannot transfer that information from this article to Concubinage in Islam, since that article must restrict itself to the subject of its title, which is a subcategory to this subject.
- The article Sexual slavery in Islam is a main article about all forms of sexual slavery within Islam and the attidude toward it; the article Concubinage in Islam covers a subject within that phenomena. It is similar to "Opera" being a subcategory to "Music" or "Flower" and "Plants", and we should not erase a main category and replace it with a subcategory. --Aciram (talk) 15:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 9 October, 2021
![]() | This edit request to Sexual slavery in Islam has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This can be cited as a reference to add a sentence in the lead, "The consent of the slave for sex, for withdrawal before ejaculation or to marry her off to someone else was not considered necessary". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:578C:A76:3813:EA38:F15C:FCE6 (talk) 07:46, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Not done for now: Where exactly in the lead would you like this sentence? And what is your rationale for placing this in the lead rather than another section? —Sirdog (talk) 15:52, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Reopened Sirdog, it can be the second sentence in the lead, but feel free to add it anywhere! I observed that Kecia Ali has been used as a source for many sentences in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.7.6.21 (talk) 17:07, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging @Sirdog for IP. ––FormalDude talk 08:13, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, thank you for the ping FormalDude, and thank you for your response IP! I'll see if I can find a way to insert that sentence or something equivalent to that in the article sometime tomorrow. —Sirdog (talk) 03:31, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
- Should not be done. Can you explain why this deserves to be in the lead? Please be careful of WP:UNDUE. This is already in the body of the article and that seems like appropriate weight.VR talk 15:29, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
It is like a summary - that is why I felt it was fine there.-Baamiyaan2 (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2021 (UTC)Sockpuppet.VR talk 01:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Can you explain why this deserves to be in the lead?
For clarity, I did not intend to place that sentence or something equivalent to it in the lead. I am not comfortable messing with leads at the current stage of my editing career. I planned to read the article in whole, determine if inclusion was necessary, and if so, perform it. That said, I'm going to hold off now and see how this conversation progresses. —Sirdog (talk) 18:13, 11 October 2021 (UTC)Sirdog, I repeat, "It is like a summary - that is why I felt it was fine there". You should probably read the article. If you feel that it can be in the lead please add it, I will not be doing so.-Baamiyaan2 (talk) 01:33, 12 October 2021 (UTC)Sockpuppet.VR talk 01:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Aciram, Grufo, Mcphurphy and Anachronist should probably look into it as they seem to know the topic.-Baamiyaan2 (talk) 02:04, 12 October 2021 (UTC)Sockpuppet.VR talk 01:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)- Baamiyaan2, I did read your explanation. My previous reply was me stating that I'm pulling out of the request due to there being some debate on it's inclusion. As you say, I have indeed not yet read this article, I will let others more knowledgeable in this subject area than I handle this. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 02:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for the ping. I don't know what this discussion is about, I stopped following this page months ago. If it is about inserting "The consent of the slave for sex, for withdrawal before ejaculation or to marry her off to someone else was not considered necessary" in the lead, I am against, it is already obvious that if you are a slave your consent never matters, so the sentence will exist only for emphatic reasons, and emphasis is POV. That sentence would become necessary if we started calling slaves "concubines", as we did in the past, but since we stopped doing that there is no reason to emphasize things. Don't take my words for granted, there might be also stylistic reasons that allow an emphasis, and I would need a better explanation of the two opposite positions. --Grufo (talk) 13:55, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- The lead should not simply parrot a single sentence in the article body. That sentence does not even summarize the section in which it appears, which is about consent, and not specifically about "withdrawal". Also, the discussion of withdrawal occupies just a single short paragraph in the cited article. Therefore, putting the sentence in the lead gives it undue weight. A sentence summarizing the section named "The issue of consent" should summarize it more generally, not focus on one specific aspect. ~Anachronist (talk) 14:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
"Islamic views on concubinage"
I saw now that a new page "Islamic views on concubinage" has been created, as a sort of spin-off from this page. If we apply there the same policy that we applied here (and there are no reasons why we shouldn't) that page should be renamed to "Islamic views on sexual slavery". --Grufo (talk) 15:36, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Neutrality template (again)
Despite the attempts of multiple editors to remove the neutrality template – which was inserted more than one year ago only in the name of the (now solved) title controversy – a user keeps restoring it (#1, #2 – checked only the last two months). --Grufo (talk) 15:58, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- The title dispute was never resolved. This page still has a title that does not reflect the reliable sources (see here and here). And there are various other neutrality issues, some of which have been discussed as late as this week and last.VR talk 16:03, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- Title: In your head, maybe, probably; for Wikipedia, solved long ago. Neutrality issues: they were not discussions, it was you imposing your point of view through reverts. --Grufo (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please mind WP:CIVIL.VR talk 16:40, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with Grufo. The dispute was resolved long ago, notwithstanding the insistence of one editor. These tags have no business in the article. Mcphurphy (talk) 10:22, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Mcphurphy: I have tried to address the behavior issue, but the discussion has not brought consequences so far. --Grufo (talk) 11:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with Grufo. The dispute was resolved long ago, notwithstanding the insistence of one editor. These tags have no business in the article. Mcphurphy (talk) 10:22, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please mind WP:CIVIL.VR talk 16:40, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- Title: In your head, maybe, probably; for Wikipedia, solved long ago. Neutrality issues: they were not discussions, it was you imposing your point of view through reverts. --Grufo (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
@Vice regent: Please could you provide a paragraph explaining the issues.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:24, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- This entire article is POV, starting with its title. This is not about Islam, this is about Islamic, Arab, Ottoman or whatever societies also happened to be majority Muslim. We don't write up the history of the North Atlantic slave trade as: Slavery in Christianity: it would be absurd POV (- in fact, as it turns out, this redirects to Christian views on slavery). We also don't write up the fact that Christian slave owners sexually abused their female slaves as Sexual slavery in Christianity. As it so happens, History of slavery in the Muslim world is already an article, as well as Slavery in the Ottoman Empire - the latter of which already has a large write up on sexual slavery (if that is indeed even what we are to call it). I will be raising an RFC soon. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- This article is not about what Muslims did or do, it is about how Islam, as religion, theologically and historically addresses the topic of sexual slavery. Or should we assume that Islam has no opinions on sexual slavery? Wikipedia has also Islamic views on slavery; sexual slavery is a subcategory of that. There is also a WP:POVFORK clone that a user has created after attempting to rename this page without success at Islamic views on concubinage: if according to you it is wrong to have a page dedicated to what a religion thinks about sexual slavery, I assume it is also wrong to have a clone on the same topic that uses an apologetic title – but why do I have the feeling that you will disagree with this assumption? --Grufo (talk) 11:23, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- To be honest, apologetics don't come into it. The big problem with this article is it combines gross generalisations (usually linked to one source and page number, but without any proper footnotes), with some rather select examples. Take, for instance the section on war captives, where we have three paragraphs of generalising, paraphrased tect with no detailed footnotes, followed by two much larger paragraphs on specific war crimes by the Ottoman Empire during the Greek struggle for independence - a particularly acrimonious conflict in which numerous war crimes were committed by both sides. Then there is the lack of historical context. For most of ancient, medieval and early modern history, it was routine in many cultures for women captured in battle to be treated as property. While disturbing by modern standards, this was pretty common across ancient to pre-modern empires. Sex slaves is a very POV term to describe the practice, however. We don't say "Rome conquered the Gallic tribe and took sex slaves", "Genghis sacked Samarkand and took sex slaves", etc. Women were captured and often enslaved as part of the far more generalised looting that took place. Sometimes they were used for sex, sometimes they weren't, but this type of violence was highly normalised in the ancient world. I don't know exactly what should be done about this page, but at the moment, it is highly confused, combining general information about slavery, such as the abolition section, some specific material pertaining to female slaves, and then a whole bunch of random examples almost definitely duplicating content from other pages, such as the material on Ottoman sexual slavery. "Islamic views on concubinage" is currently a much more focused, precise and clear article. I don't know what this is meant to be. It seems half just confused and half some sort of weird, tangential attack page. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:39, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I thought. --Grufo (talk) 12:47, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- This article, if anything, is the WP:POVFORK, beginning first and foremost with the title. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- You mean that the author of this page read Vice regent's clone, traveled back in time, WP:POVFORKED it in the past and forced Vice regent to WP:POVFORK it back? I love time loops. --Grufo (talk) 13:49, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- This article, if anything, is the WP:POVFORK, beginning first and foremost with the title. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I thought. --Grufo (talk) 12:47, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- To be honest, apologetics don't come into it. The big problem with this article is it combines gross generalisations (usually linked to one source and page number, but without any proper footnotes), with some rather select examples. Take, for instance the section on war captives, where we have three paragraphs of generalising, paraphrased tect with no detailed footnotes, followed by two much larger paragraphs on specific war crimes by the Ottoman Empire during the Greek struggle for independence - a particularly acrimonious conflict in which numerous war crimes were committed by both sides. Then there is the lack of historical context. For most of ancient, medieval and early modern history, it was routine in many cultures for women captured in battle to be treated as property. While disturbing by modern standards, this was pretty common across ancient to pre-modern empires. Sex slaves is a very POV term to describe the practice, however. We don't say "Rome conquered the Gallic tribe and took sex slaves", "Genghis sacked Samarkand and took sex slaves", etc. Women were captured and often enslaved as part of the far more generalised looting that took place. Sometimes they were used for sex, sometimes they weren't, but this type of violence was highly normalised in the ancient world. I don't know exactly what should be done about this page, but at the moment, it is highly confused, combining general information about slavery, such as the abolition section, some specific material pertaining to female slaves, and then a whole bunch of random examples almost definitely duplicating content from other pages, such as the material on Ottoman sexual slavery. "Islamic views on concubinage" is currently a much more focused, precise and clear article. I don't know what this is meant to be. It seems half just confused and half some sort of weird, tangential attack page. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:39, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- This article is not about what Muslims did or do, it is about how Islam, as religion, theologically and historically addresses the topic of sexual slavery. Or should we assume that Islam has no opinions on sexual slavery? Wikipedia has also Islamic views on slavery; sexual slavery is a subcategory of that. There is also a WP:POVFORK clone that a user has created after attempting to rename this page without success at Islamic views on concubinage: if according to you it is wrong to have a page dedicated to what a religion thinks about sexual slavery, I assume it is also wrong to have a clone on the same topic that uses an apologetic title – but why do I have the feeling that you will disagree with this assumption? --Grufo (talk) 11:23, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
@Toddy1:, here is a non-exhaustive list of POV issues with his article (as has been mentioned before[2]).
- Either the scope or the title of this article is against policy. Mcphurphy, the creator, said about the the scope: "
Any instance of Muslims practising sexual slavery belongs in this article
". There are few RS (if any) that cover such a broad scope. Instead, RS do cover the specific scope of concubinage in Muslim history and Islamic thought. If concubinage is indeed the topic, then the name should be "concubinage" because that is the WP:COMMONNAME as shown here and here. - The sectioning of this article gives WP:UNDUE weight to topics are either not touched or barely so by sources that attempt to give a broad overview of this topic. There is a clear attempt to cherrypick certain aspects from certain sources and give them more weight than they are typically given in RS. For example, I have gone through dozens of books that cover slavery or concubinage in the Muslim world and concubinage in Islamic law and I didn't find any that cover the topic of forced conversion (except one source that said forced conversion of slaves was prohibited). Yet we have a section Forced conversion for concubinage. This can be mentioned in this article but an entire section is UNDUE. That section is also POV because it is based entirely on one source, and doesn't contain any reference to dozens of sources (both Muslim and non-Muslim) that state that forced conversion is contrary to the Quranic verse Al-Baqara 256.
- 5 out of the 7 paragraphs in The issue of consent are based on the views of only one scholar: Kecia Ali. What is the reason that other scholars like Tamara Sonn, Jonathan Brown, Rabb Instisar, Hina Azam etc should be given far less weight?
- This article attempts to divide history into "Sexual enslavement of non-Muslim women by Muslim men", "Sexual enslavement of Muslim women by non-Muslim men" and "Sexual enslavement of Muslim women by Muslim men". Do reliable use a similar form of sectioning? Or is this again Mcphurphy's invention to give UNDUE weight to certain aspects?
- The section Sexual slavery in pre-Islamic Arabia and early Islam is based partially on only WP:PRIMARY sources. As Wiqi55 pointed out, secondary RS are needed to determine weight - if no reliable secondary source exist, it is UNDUE to mention the content.VR talk 12:28, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Vice regent: I have transformed your bullet list into a numbered list so that we can refer to each point easily. You can revert it if you prefer differently.
- The title cannot constitute an element for the POV template. When a dispute ends it ends, and you have to accept that the status quo is restored. “Any instance of Muslims practising sexual slavery” cannot be the content of the page. But Muslims that practice(d) sexual slavery using the religion in support can – because a religion is not scriptures, is how people interpret these.
- Cherrypicking? I think I have not seen any other editor who cherrypicks or POV-pushes as much as you do when it comes to this topic (#1, #2, #3, #4, #5). And yet, it is not enough for you to cherrypick without anyone protesting, you want to cherrypick and accuse other people of cherrypicking. That said, have you tried in the last year to address the “issue” that you mention?
- Have you ever tried to propose these authors, either in the discussion or directly in the article?
- We are quite free to choose how to present a content. What section of those is given undue weight according to you?
- You are doing it again. An editor, Wiqi55, sees a primary source problem and “fixes it” (I won't discuss about the content of the edits here). Another editor, Mcphurphy disagrees and a discussion begins – in which Wiqi55 pronounces the words that you quoted. Wiqi55's edits are kept in the end, so “problem solved”. And yet you quote the sentence that they pronounced when there was “a primary source problem” in support of the claim that currently there is a primary source problem.
- An added problem here is that no one seems to be able to agree on what this article is actually about. Hypothetically, for example, if I temporarily go along with your line of thinking Grufo, this page should be called Islamic views on sexual slavery. However, Mcphurphy has an entirely conflicting view, which is that this is not about Islamic views at all, but about all the instances of sexual misconduct towards slaves ever committed by someone ostensibly a Muslim. Setting aside questions of whether there might be any inappropriate POV here, this approach would more aptly result in an article called Sexual slavery in the Islamic/Muslim World - effectively a branch out from the main "History of slavery in the Muslim world" page. Added to this is the somewhat broader issue of whether sexual slavery is even an appropriate term, and whether this topic truly deserves its own space outside of the related main articles on slavery. As noted below [3], sexual slavery only currently appears to be being covered separately with respect to "Islam, China, Africa, and the Ottoman Empire" - a pretty Orientalist WP:BIAS selection that singles out Islam as a religion, and for good measure, also an Islamic Empire. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:56, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be against calling this page Islamic views on sexual slavery – both titles are quite similar. As I said above, I don't think the page can be about people who happened to be Muslims that enslaved other people; the religion must be used in support (and cannot be done by a single individual, it must be socially accepted, at least by a group). But Mcphurphy is here, so maybe we can directly ask them what they meant. And finally, I wouldn't be against having an article named Christian views on sexual slavery, or whatever other religion's views. --Grufo (talk) 13:44, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- If the society a historical person lived in said that an owner can lawfully have sex with their female slave (irrespective of what the slave wants), then it is not misconduct for the owner to have sex with their female slave. (We probably disagree with the values of that society, but I am not sure that our beliefs are relevant.)-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:56, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes of course. But this page would not even be about that owner, this page would be about how that owner was or was not accepted in his society. --Grufo (talk) 12:47, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be against calling this page Islamic views on sexual slavery – both titles are quite similar. As I said above, I don't think the page can be about people who happened to be Muslims that enslaved other people; the religion must be used in support (and cannot be done by a single individual, it must be socially accepted, at least by a group). But Mcphurphy is here, so maybe we can directly ask them what they meant. And finally, I wouldn't be against having an article named Christian views on sexual slavery, or whatever other religion's views. --Grufo (talk) 13:44, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Grufo you asked what was stopping me (and others) from fixing POV issues on this article. Here's your answer: Mcphurphy whole-scale reverted everyone's edits[4], including Iskandar's removals and my additions. In the edit summary, Mcphurphy indicated they want "long talk-page discussion" which sounds to me like Wikipedia:Status quo stonewalling. This is why this dispute has dragged on for so long. Because some users have WP:OWNERSHIP issues and exhaust everyone through WP:BLUDGEONING.VR talk 21:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think we should have a discussion, but not a long one. As for the topic of this page I expressed my opinion, which I believe is not different than yours (correct me if I am wrong). I saw that Mcphurphy has a different view, which would require a longer explanation from them (“Islam” is not “people who are Muslim”). Some of the parts you and Iskandar323 blanked had one or more problems (like this one I attempted to fix or, for example, a sentence like “Some of them were sold to Arab men in Libya” has a WP:POV emphasis on the word “Arab”, so it should be transformed into something like “Some of them were sold in Libya” – Libyans are already Arabs – and similar things), however WP:BLANKING is equally wrong. I believe that if we are able to make the page as aseptic and dry as possible even the most prejudiced users (both the most apologetic and the most critic ones) will find it OK. Not just the tone can express WP:POV content, also what we decide to give space to can be problematic. I believe that fixing all the problems will require an effort from some editors. The most apologetic ones need to accept that religions, as practiced through history, can have problematic parts when judged with modern eyes, and Wikipedia cannot suddenly become apologetic to prevent a feeling of shame in people who live centuries later. The most critic ones need to accept that if someone has a religion not everything they do is due to their religion. I am fully aware of the discriminating usage of religions today and in the past, but I also believe that truth has no fears. --Grufo (talk) 12:47, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Grufo: please propose in one sentence what the scope of this article should be.VR talk 12:50, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think the scope of the article should be “How Islam addresses/addressed the topic of sexual slavery”. By “addressing” I mean scriptural interpretations, laws and practices. --Grufo (talk) 12:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- When you say "Islam addressed" do you count the actions of every Muslim past or present? Do you consider all types of sexual slavery, including forced marriage, child sexual abuse, forced prostitution etc?VR talk 15:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I said, individuals don't count in what they do, but they do count in what society allows them to do. If I punch you in the nose saying that the law allows me to do it, I cannot speak for the law. But if you go to the police and they tell you “Yeah, they are right, the law allows them to punch you in the nose”, things start to have a different meaning. In the specific case of sexual slavery it is likely that there will be opposite interpretations of the scriptures, and we should report them, giving appropriate weight on the basis of how much weight they actually have/had in their societies. Something similar happens in Christian views on slavery, with Mormons supporting the enslavement of black people: although Mormons are a tiny minority of Christians, they do exist as a community, so Wikipedia reports their historical view. Sexual slavery includes all forms of sexual slavery, but if some types of slaveries are not mentioned anywhere in the religion we should not even mention them. Or if some forms are mentioned to be condemned, we should report that. Islam includes past and present, so the page should not avoid epochs. --Grufo (talk) 16:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- But Islam is open to interpretation, and it is not hard to find justifications for a wide variety of acts. For example, the Muslims men who practice sexual slavery with young boys in Afghanistan justify their acts: "homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, but those involved in Bacha Bazi justify their actions by saying that, since they are not in love with these boys, it doesn’t apply."
- On the other hand, narrowing our scope to only practices that were widely considered legal and socially acceptable in major Muslim states throughout history could be a better scope. We know, for example, that concubinage with slaves was widely considered legal until the 20th century.VR talk 16:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think Bacha Bazi is a good example. From your quotation it seems they interpret the Islamic concept of homosexuality as being in love, not as having sex, so they justify it within religion. Islam for them is that, more or less like “true Christianity” for the various Christian groups is what they profess. Narrowing to states is problematic. First, we don't do that with other religions, and second, religious groups might not be represented by any state and still be sizeable religious groups. If an intepretation exists and manifest through practices, that is exactly what a religion is. --Grufo (talk) 17:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, so you would include Bacha Bazi within “How Islam addresses/addressed the topic of sexual slavery”? For you, it seems what's important is if a Muslim comes up with a religious justification or not for his practices (no matter how much it is rejected by other Muslims).VR talk 17:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I said, I think due weight to an intepretation must be given on the basis of the impact that it has. If a minority of educated Muslim followers/scholars says and practices A, but a majority of less educated followers/scholars says and practices B, you cannot ignore B on the basis that they are less educated. Otherwise an atheist might pass by and say that both A and B are not educated enough to have the right to exist. Same happens with inverted proportions. A minority that you consider more “primitive” than the educated majority does deserve some mention, more or less like the Mormons. --Grufo (talk) 17:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- So that's a "yes", right? I just want clarity, that's all.VR talk 17:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, if the page wants to be encyclopedic. That does not mean it must become WP:ATTACK, there are many ways of reporting it. For example, saying “Islam endorses Bacha Bazi” is not the same thing as saying “Supporters of the practice of Bacha Bazi justify it using Islam in support, with the argument that ... etc. etc.”. I think Christian views on slavery can be a good page to imitate for the general tone used. A lot of Christians have justified slavery thorugh history and the page says it, and yet that page does not feel like WP:ATTACK. --Grufo (talk) 17:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- So that's a "yes", right? I just want clarity, that's all.VR talk 17:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I said, I think due weight to an intepretation must be given on the basis of the impact that it has. If a minority of educated Muslim followers/scholars says and practices A, but a majority of less educated followers/scholars says and practices B, you cannot ignore B on the basis that they are less educated. Otherwise an atheist might pass by and say that both A and B are not educated enough to have the right to exist. Same happens with inverted proportions. A minority that you consider more “primitive” than the educated majority does deserve some mention, more or less like the Mormons. --Grufo (talk) 17:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, so you would include Bacha Bazi within “How Islam addresses/addressed the topic of sexual slavery”? For you, it seems what's important is if a Muslim comes up with a religious justification or not for his practices (no matter how much it is rejected by other Muslims).VR talk 17:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think Bacha Bazi is a good example. From your quotation it seems they interpret the Islamic concept of homosexuality as being in love, not as having sex, so they justify it within religion. Islam for them is that, more or less like “true Christianity” for the various Christian groups is what they profess. Narrowing to states is problematic. First, we don't do that with other religions, and second, religious groups might not be represented by any state and still be sizeable religious groups. If an intepretation exists and manifest through practices, that is exactly what a religion is. --Grufo (talk) 17:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I said, individuals don't count in what they do, but they do count in what society allows them to do. If I punch you in the nose saying that the law allows me to do it, I cannot speak for the law. But if you go to the police and they tell you “Yeah, they are right, the law allows them to punch you in the nose”, things start to have a different meaning. In the specific case of sexual slavery it is likely that there will be opposite interpretations of the scriptures, and we should report them, giving appropriate weight on the basis of how much weight they actually have/had in their societies. Something similar happens in Christian views on slavery, with Mormons supporting the enslavement of black people: although Mormons are a tiny minority of Christians, they do exist as a community, so Wikipedia reports their historical view. Sexual slavery includes all forms of sexual slavery, but if some types of slaveries are not mentioned anywhere in the religion we should not even mention them. Or if some forms are mentioned to be condemned, we should report that. Islam includes past and present, so the page should not avoid epochs. --Grufo (talk) 16:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- When you say "Islam addressed" do you count the actions of every Muslim past or present? Do you consider all types of sexual slavery, including forced marriage, child sexual abuse, forced prostitution etc?VR talk 15:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think the scope of the article should be “How Islam addresses/addressed the topic of sexual slavery”. By “addressing” I mean scriptural interpretations, laws and practices. --Grufo (talk) 12:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Grufo: please propose in one sentence what the scope of this article should be.VR talk 12:50, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think we should have a discussion, but not a long one. As for the topic of this page I expressed my opinion, which I believe is not different than yours (correct me if I am wrong). I saw that Mcphurphy has a different view, which would require a longer explanation from them (“Islam” is not “people who are Muslim”). Some of the parts you and Iskandar323 blanked had one or more problems (like this one I attempted to fix or, for example, a sentence like “Some of them were sold to Arab men in Libya” has a WP:POV emphasis on the word “Arab”, so it should be transformed into something like “Some of them were sold in Libya” – Libyans are already Arabs – and similar things), however WP:BLANKING is equally wrong. I believe that if we are able to make the page as aseptic and dry as possible even the most prejudiced users (both the most apologetic and the most critic ones) will find it OK. Not just the tone can express WP:POV content, also what we decide to give space to can be problematic. I believe that fixing all the problems will require an effort from some editors. The most apologetic ones need to accept that religions, as practiced through history, can have problematic parts when judged with modern eyes, and Wikipedia cannot suddenly become apologetic to prevent a feeling of shame in people who live centuries later. The most critic ones need to accept that if someone has a religion not everything they do is due to their religion. I am fully aware of the discriminating usage of religions today and in the past, but I also believe that truth has no fears. --Grufo (talk) 12:47, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Citation tag removdc
I have removed the citation tag as an article with 273 cites and no citation needed tags is a well-sourced article. Whatever other disagreements with tone, citations are not the issue. Slywriter (talk) 20:21, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- That tag was placed by Awesome Aasim so they can give insight as to why they placed it. From their edit summary it seems they are calling for some text to be cited to multiple sources.VR talk 22:59, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- Which other tags exist that can be placed next to the specific statement. Tagging the entire article provides the false impression that the article contains largely uncited material, which is patently false. And given the size of the article is utterly useless to other editors. Slywriter (talk) 23:07, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Small Request
I don't believe I'm allowed to edit this, could someone make sure that for Kecia Ali there is a hyperlink to her wiki page? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaynab1418 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- Done. Jushyosaha604 (talk) 17:36, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- Btw, as I was putting the hyperlink in, I noticed that we quote Kecia Ali a lot at the expense of other sources... There's even whole paragraphs that are just block quotes from her. Addressing the imbalance might be a good idea for improving this article moving forward. Jushyosaha604 (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- Also, regarding our sources, I notice we are citing a politician Sadaf Jaffer's blog post along with the academic research conducted by various scholars. Might be worth reconsidering the weight being given to that particular source in the article.Jushyosaha604 (talk) 17:48, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- Here are some books we could look into
- Slavery in the Islamic World: Its Characteristics and Commonality by Mary Ann Fay
- Women and Gender in the Qur'an by Celene Ibrahim
- Slavery and Islam by Jonathon Brown
- Concubines and Courtesans: Women and Slavery in Islamic History by Matthew Gordon
- Possessed by the Right Hand: The Problem of Slavery in Islamic Law and Muslim Cultures by Bernard Freamon
- Sexual Violation in Islamic Law: Substance, Evidence, and Procedure by Hina Azam --Zaynab1418 (talk) 02:57, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
What is with the sourcing and abominable generalisation on this page?!
Has everyone who is editing this page lost their marbles? The first source on this page is a pdf of an unsubmitted graduate student's thesis, not something peer reviewed? Seriously?! And what is with all the blanket statements such as: "Islamic law says X"
, Islam allows Y
, etc.? Islamic law and Islam don't DO anything! They are inanimate. People, with their interpretations in different times and places, DO things. Every example given in a piece like this has to be carefully contextualised. I thought this page would be bad before I clicked on it, but boy did I lack imagination. This is a complete joke. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:19, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Iskandar323: Tell me about it. The creator of this article explained "
Any instance of Muslims practising sexual slavery belongs in this article
"[5]. Crimes by certain Muslim individuals and groups are notable in their own right (ISIS's sexual slavery, Hindu-Muslim rapes in India etc). But I have never come across a reliable source that aims to generalize all instances of sexual slavery by Muslims (or Christians, or Buddhists, or atheists, etc). This article was borne out of an attempt to synthesize sources to push a particular POV.VR talk 19:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)- I am going to be sorely tempted tomorrow to just get out a hammer and chisel and start hacking away. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Be WP:BOLD! But also don't be surprised if someone reverts your hard work. Might be more productive to go slower, one section at a time, seeking consensus as you go along. What, in your opinion, are the biggest issues? Can you give examples? Then we can tackle those first.VR talk 00:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- I see that unsubmitted thesis pdf right up front as a particularly outstanding issue. This is a broad topic and there is enough peer-reviewed academic literature on the subject that the piece doesn't need any dodgy pdfs or episodic news links. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:26, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- There is a real WP:BIAS imbalance on Wikipedia in general on this subject as well. There are individual articles on "Sexual slavery in ...": Islam, China, contemporary Africa, and the Ottoman Empire only - the latter for sure being duplicate of this work, but more broadly, what the hell? What about the Roman Empire, Persian Empire, and, let's not forget, contemporary Europe, where modern slavery and sex trafficking are absolutely rife. Clearly there is a general mood to only expand these articles in a certain direction. The framing is also all over the place. If this is about Islam, it should be solely about the concept of sexual slavery as it is presented from a religious perspective. It shouldn't be about examples. If it is about sexual slavery, past and present, in the Arab or Islamic World, it should be "Sexual slavery in the Arab/Islamic World" and then show historic examples. A piece blending theology and examples is just a hot, broken mess. It's actually hard to know where to begin in tackling what appears to have become a runaway train of WP:BIAS and bad sourcing. Contemplating an RFC. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- All good points. There is an article the narrowly focuses on just the theological and legal perspectives (Islamic views on concubinage) so this article can become just about the history of the practice. And RfC on the scope of this article is a great idea! In my experience, RfC works better if you let users pick from several suggestions. So what do you suggest the scope should be? I think this article should focus mainly on history (Islamic views on concubinage should focus on theology/law). In terms of breadth it should be limited to the historic practice of concubinage (which in Muslim history was defined as a man having a long-term relationship with his female slave). It should not try to lump that together with other forms of sexual slavery practiced by Muslims. We see that Slavery in the United States is about the historic slavery in the US but Human trafficking in the United States is a different article.VR talk 13:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- I was having a conversation this evening about this, just with friends, outside of Wikipedia, and they were amazed that something as unencyclopedic and broad as this article could actually exist. It provided some much needed clarity and drew my attention to the fact that really, all articles of this type should be linked to a specific geography and time, and, as Karaeng Matoaya pointed out [6], not span multiple eras and geographies. At the very least there should be a distinction between historic and modern examples. Historic examples of course being pre-abolition both in global society in general, and within Islamic communities. Groups like Isis/Isil that use ideologies of the past to justify their terrorism of the present should not be bundled together with this. Neither should the Indian partition, the Sudanese civil war or the Ottoman material, which already has its own, specific article. If anything, if this is to cover something semi-specific, it should most likely be limited to the early broadly Arabic-speaking caliphates: Rashidun, Umayyad and Abbasid - to actually form a body of content that is distinct from the existing article and content on the Turkic Ottoman caliphate. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- I am open to renaming the article Sexual slavery in the Islamic World provided that all the historical instances of sexual slavery practised by Muslims, including more modern cases, which have been newly removed by Iskandar are reincorporated into the article and the theological discussion behind all elements of the historical practice is also retained, so that readers can understand how this practice lasted so long in the Muslim world until the West forced the Muslim world to abolish slavery, and with it concubinage.
- The claim that Islam or Islamic law allows or doesn't allow anything is incorrect and problematic. As Islam, including its primary sources such as the Quran and Hadith, was transmitted through people. Is Iskandar saying Islam is a man-made religion? If so, how Muslims, especially those trained in Islamic jurisprudence, have interpreted Islam for most of Islam's existence is highly pertinent. Mcphurphy (talk) 21:33, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- The above is an admission that this page is WP:SYNTH: Mcphurphy takes source A that is talking about a theological issue, combines it with source B that is talking about a historical rape committed by Muslims, to advance the position "how this practice lasted so long in the Muslim world". Never mind that those sources might be talking about completely different time periods and locations.VR talk 21:51, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- I was having a conversation this evening about this, just with friends, outside of Wikipedia, and they were amazed that something as unencyclopedic and broad as this article could actually exist. It provided some much needed clarity and drew my attention to the fact that really, all articles of this type should be linked to a specific geography and time, and, as Karaeng Matoaya pointed out [6], not span multiple eras and geographies. At the very least there should be a distinction between historic and modern examples. Historic examples of course being pre-abolition both in global society in general, and within Islamic communities. Groups like Isis/Isil that use ideologies of the past to justify their terrorism of the present should not be bundled together with this. Neither should the Indian partition, the Sudanese civil war or the Ottoman material, which already has its own, specific article. If anything, if this is to cover something semi-specific, it should most likely be limited to the early broadly Arabic-speaking caliphates: Rashidun, Umayyad and Abbasid - to actually form a body of content that is distinct from the existing article and content on the Turkic Ottoman caliphate. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- All good points. There is an article the narrowly focuses on just the theological and legal perspectives (Islamic views on concubinage) so this article can become just about the history of the practice. And RfC on the scope of this article is a great idea! In my experience, RfC works better if you let users pick from several suggestions. So what do you suggest the scope should be? I think this article should focus mainly on history (Islamic views on concubinage should focus on theology/law). In terms of breadth it should be limited to the historic practice of concubinage (which in Muslim history was defined as a man having a long-term relationship with his female slave). It should not try to lump that together with other forms of sexual slavery practiced by Muslims. We see that Slavery in the United States is about the historic slavery in the US but Human trafficking in the United States is a different article.VR talk 13:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- There is a real WP:BIAS imbalance on Wikipedia in general on this subject as well. There are individual articles on "Sexual slavery in ...": Islam, China, contemporary Africa, and the Ottoman Empire only - the latter for sure being duplicate of this work, but more broadly, what the hell? What about the Roman Empire, Persian Empire, and, let's not forget, contemporary Europe, where modern slavery and sex trafficking are absolutely rife. Clearly there is a general mood to only expand these articles in a certain direction. The framing is also all over the place. If this is about Islam, it should be solely about the concept of sexual slavery as it is presented from a religious perspective. It shouldn't be about examples. If it is about sexual slavery, past and present, in the Arab or Islamic World, it should be "Sexual slavery in the Arab/Islamic World" and then show historic examples. A piece blending theology and examples is just a hot, broken mess. It's actually hard to know where to begin in tackling what appears to have become a runaway train of WP:BIAS and bad sourcing. Contemplating an RFC. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- I see that unsubmitted thesis pdf right up front as a particularly outstanding issue. This is a broad topic and there is enough peer-reviewed academic literature on the subject that the piece doesn't need any dodgy pdfs or episodic news links. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:26, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- Be WP:BOLD! But also don't be surprised if someone reverts your hard work. Might be more productive to go slower, one section at a time, seeking consensus as you go along. What, in your opinion, are the biggest issues? Can you give examples? Then we can tackle those first.VR talk 00:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- I am going to be sorely tempted tomorrow to just get out a hammer and chisel and start hacking away. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Citation clashes caused by a mix of citation methods
Either this article needs to be written on the basis of using <ref name=IJMES-49-1>_____</ref> or the {{sfn|Ali|2017|p152-158}} method of doing citations. Mixing the systems produces a mess. One advantage of the <ref name=IJMES-49-1>_____</ref> method is that links to Google books can be to the relevant page(s), which is less likely to be achieved with the {{sfn| method.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:08, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
New edits
There has been a spate in recent editing which is quite contentious. For instance, we are seeing removal of text about sexual enslavement during the Armenian genocide and other places under the claim that its "off-topic" [7] but the same editor then goes on to add that material to other related articles[8]. There are multiple other issues with Iskander's new edits which I will elaborate on later. Mcphurphy (talk) 21:08, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Reverting someone first and then saying you'll "elaborate on later", is pretty disruptive. Especially since you reverted my edit too without any explanation.VR talk 21:14, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- If you are familiar WP:SPLIT then you will know that an article of more than 100,000kB is ripe for size reduction (and if not, harsh editing down) - principally because articles of this size become borderline unreadable. All of the content I have dealt with is off-topic - the modern stuff not least because it follows a whole section on abolition, which explains the end of slavery in the Islamic world. Isolated instances of kidnapping, rape and sexual misconduct on Islamic pretenses in modern times do not undo an abolition that spans continents. You can also follow the discussion between myself and Vice Regent, which you chose to ignore, on a number of other reasons why these fairly niche modern examples are inappropriate in this broadly historical article [9]. The content I have moved, I have moved, because it relates to specific conflicts not broader trends, and its most appropriate place is on the specific articles about those conflicts. The content I have simply deleted as off-topic includes: material on the partition of India and reports of sexual violence both committed by and against Muslims - in other words, general history - if this history is to be anywhere, it should clearly be on a page about the partition. Then we have Isis that is a fringe terrorist group that has been declared un-Islamic (informally ex-communicated in some cases) by Muslim leaders around the world. If you want to keep it, put it on the Isis page. The gross issues with using an unsubmitted thesis I have covered below. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- The abolition stems not from within Islam itself, but was imposed on the Muslim world from the West. All traditional Islamic scholars trained in Islamic jurisprudence still uphold the validity of enslavement by a legitimate Islamic state. The only concept stopping them are the international treaties. The abolition idea stems from the idea that since Muslim countries have signed treaties with non-Muslim countries to not enslave; the non-Muslim citizens of non-Muslim countries cannot be enslaved. They apply a similar argument for non-Muslims who have been protected by the government in Muslim lands. In Islamic law non-Muslims in Muslim lands are not considered protected people unless they enter into a contract with the state and if they rebel against the Muslim state then any such contract is considered broken and the non-Muslims liable to enslavement like all unprotected non-Muslims. Which is why in the modern cases like Armenia it was held by Ottoman scholars that Armenian Christian women could be enslaved because Armenians had broken their contract with the Ottoman state. Similar applies in the other cases listed.
- But nevertheless, all that said, we could compromise by renaming this article as Sexual slavery in the Islamic World so we can include everything related to sexual slavery in the Muslim world including the theologically sanctioned practices and the attempted revivals by the likes of ISIS and similar manifestations of old practices.Mcphurphy (talk) 11:36, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Orientalism consists in making an ontology of the other. Modern anthropology is uncomfortable with this generalizing over societies, particularly over civilizations with a long past and present. This is what you appear to be doing here. To cite just two examples.
- 'Imposed on the Muslim world by the West'. I.e. where are the multiple RS for this patronizing view?
- 'All traditional Islamic scholars trained in Islamic jurisprudence still uphold the validity of enslavement by a legitimate Islamic state.' That is a tautology, apart from being a ballistic generalization which implies you have a minute mastery over all Islamic scholars's opinions, whatever sectarian persuasion or school they follow(ed). It is a tautology because you are saying all traditionalist scholars uphold Islamic tradition. Duh.Nishidani (talk) 20:27, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Nishidani you say - "'Imposed on the Muslim world by the West'. I.e. where are the multiple RS for this patronizing view?"
- Well here are just a few top notch RS which say that. I will add more in time.
- Ali, Kecia (2016). Sexual Ethics and Islam : Feminist Reflections on Qur'an, Hadith, and Jurisprudence. Oneworld Publications p. 54.
- William Gervase Clarence-Smith; W. G. Clarence-Smith (2006). Islam and the Abolition of Slavery. Oxford University Press. p. 11. Mcphurphy (talk) 03:21, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
- Orientalism consists in making an ontology of the other. Modern anthropology is uncomfortable with this generalizing over societies, particularly over civilizations with a long past and present. This is what you appear to be doing here. To cite just two examples.
Salma Saad thesis
The work by Salma Saad had been published by the University of Leeds in 1990.[10] It has also been cited by other scholars.[11] As such it meets WP:SCHOLARSHIP.
Moreover, in many places where Iskandar removed material citing Saad, there were other secondary sources cited too to back up the same material. Therefore, whole sale removal of material from Salma Saad is unjustified even if it is based on the dubious claim that Salma Saad's work is unreliable. Moreover, many other sources can be found for the same material. Mcphurphy (talk) 21:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- No, I only removed material that was solely cited to Saad. The source you appended declares itself to be an unsubmitted thesis. If you want to provide the submitted and approved thesis (which may in fact be quite a different version, as theses can be rejected and resubmitted) then you should find that version, or only use material substantiated by secondary sources referencing the accepted thesis. Given the range of academic sources on this subject it is completely and utterly unnecessary to touch or even go near an unsubmitted, unreliable and unpublished source. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:52, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Bullshit, this is a published piece of scholarship. The university of Leeds published it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ever Grounded (talk • contribs) 10:44, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed with Ever Grounded. This is a University-published thesis and has been cited by scholars. It clearly meets WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Mcphurphy (talk) 11:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Is this pdf the published thesis or merely the submitted thesis? Iskandar is right that after a thesis is submitted it undergoes revisions before it is ready to publish.VR talk 12:43, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As far as I understand its already final version thesis as it appears on official repo of university site Shrike (talk) 15:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I see that but there are some things about this pdf that throw me off. The front page says "This thesis has never been submitted to this or any other University", which to me sounds like a first draft. The scanned pdf also contains things that are struck out by hand and changed in handwriting. That reinforces my impression that it may not be the final draft.VR talk 15:43, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As far I understand it standard disclaimer that work is not plagiarized. Could you give me a few examples "struck out by hand and changed in handwriting". Shrike (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- On the abstract page, the page number is struck out and rewritten by hand. On the Abbreviation page "Concordance et Indices de la Tradition Musulmane" is modified by hand, as is the name that follows "Muslim = ..." (its somewhat illegible). The table of contents has several modifications by hand and the page number for Transliteration is struck out and rewritten by hand. In chapter two in the table of contents, two entries are overwritten by hand to the point that they seem illegible (I think its says Muhrim and Muhallil, but I'm not sure).VR talk 16:11, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well I still think that not final version will not appear on official website and anyhow the changes are not to the content and IMO are not substantial. We can ask at WP:RSN to get some independent input. Shrike (talk) 16:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Umm ... that site is just a repository of theses. It tells us nothing about whether or not a thesis was accepted, in this form or any other. And clearly the version we are being presented with is not a polished version. It is essentially an unfinished document, covered from top to bottom in hand-scrawled edits. Page 65 is missing altogether. Not exactly the stuff of peer-reviewed legend. And who even is Salma Saad that we should be prioritising their thesis of unclear status over the published works of the dozens of peer-reviewed academics and widely published historians in this article. I get that devil's advocacy is a thing, and sometimes has it place, but talk about polishing a turd. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well I still think that not final version will not appear on official website and anyhow the changes are not to the content and IMO are not substantial. We can ask at WP:RSN to get some independent input. Shrike (talk) 16:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- On the abstract page, the page number is struck out and rewritten by hand. On the Abbreviation page "Concordance et Indices de la Tradition Musulmane" is modified by hand, as is the name that follows "Muslim = ..." (its somewhat illegible). The table of contents has several modifications by hand and the page number for Transliteration is struck out and rewritten by hand. In chapter two in the table of contents, two entries are overwritten by hand to the point that they seem illegible (I think its says Muhrim and Muhallil, but I'm not sure).VR talk 16:11, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As far I understand it standard disclaimer that work is not plagiarized. Could you give me a few examples "struck out by hand and changed in handwriting". Shrike (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I see that but there are some things about this pdf that throw me off. The front page says "This thesis has never been submitted to this or any other University", which to me sounds like a first draft. The scanned pdf also contains things that are struck out by hand and changed in handwriting. That reinforces my impression that it may not be the final draft.VR talk 15:43, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As far as I understand its already final version thesis as it appears on official repo of university site Shrike (talk) 15:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Is this pdf the published thesis or merely the submitted thesis? Iskandar is right that after a thesis is submitted it undergoes revisions before it is ready to publish.VR talk 12:43, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed with Ever Grounded. This is a University-published thesis and has been cited by scholars. It clearly meets WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Mcphurphy (talk) 11:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Bullshit, this is a published piece of scholarship. The university of Leeds published it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ever Grounded (talk • contribs) 10:44, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
@Ever Grounded - Did you review and verify all the details you reverted here -->[12] in 1 minute between your last edit to your user page -->[13] and edit to talk page of the article --> [14]? I speculate you may have made some errors going through so much text in 60 seconds. Please review your edit again thoroughly and perhaps discuss the changes with @Iskandar323.
- PS - @Ever Grounded, do you have anything to add
before I make the revert? (Ever Grounded was reverted while I was typing this) - PS#2 - By the way. You are a new editor with 11 edits to your credit so I would like to welcome you to Wikipedia at the same time. GizzyCatBella🍁 13:40, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
The problem here is not with Saad's thesis, which I find an acceptable source if you use it reading all of the relevant section (pp.234ff) but generally with the fact that, despite impressive sourcing, a large amount of our article if you check, represents only a very thin chink of what is said on the relevant cited pages. You can see this in the lead. Mufti for example fro m pp.1-5 makes a neat distinction between traditionalist and modernist interpretations of Sharia law. In modernist interpretations slavery is un-Islamic. The editor just used a snippet on p.5 to cite the case of enslaving subjugated people, and, within the rest of the lead you have a fabricated orientalist 'ontology' of Islam as a sexual enslaver (of unbelievers). Well Saad's text alone (not to mention many other sources cited) nuances that significantly. The generalization doesn't stand because in Islamic law, from the hadith alone, As the lead has been concocted, and with the prior use of 'is' for an historical 'were/was'), you have jihadi predators enslaving for fucks whatever women falls into their hands, i.e. not Sharia, but the recent practices of ISIS and other militantly predatory mobs in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere. No mention of all of the restrictions placed on concubinage for an enslaved woman, who had to be unmarried, or a virgin, or divorced or widowed.
The issue then is not one that lends itself to tit-and-tat revert battles, but of fixing a decidedly cherrypicked article by presenting the relevant historical evidence ignored in the linked available sources in all of their complexity, and doing so neutrally rather than, as in the general tendency in wiki articles on the Arab/Islamic world, to make a case against both.Nishidani (talk) 16:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: I agree things have been cherry picked and revert battles are unproductive. You're right that the historic practice of concubinage was widely accepted - but strictly within certain limits - whereas the modern day practice is widely rejected by Muslims. And so I think the first step is to decide the scope of the article so we don't conflate things that RS don't conflate. I think the scope should be "historic practice of concubinage in Muslim societies as discussed by relevant RS". What do you think? I want to discuss possible options then put this to RfC.VR talk 16:50, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well the article is a mess, and would require hard work to overhaul and put it on a sound footing. The lead is not worth a nob of goatshit as a summary of the content, but the real work would consist in reorganization (starting with pre-Islamic slavery/concubinage traditions (2) the Qur'an and Hadith, and once that is done, then (3) the legal traditions. Only when those three unsexy, unlurid historical realities have been done, could one deal with the rest with periodization and the different conventions of different Muslim societies. Much of the record for each period is just silly listing of cases. Look at the Abbasid caliphate. You'd never guess from that snippet of random tit(illating)bits that of the 36/37 odd (can't remember the exact figure) caliphs, only three were born outside of concubinage: the whole dynasty was ruled throughout by the offspring of slaves.
- Is anyone prepared to undertake this. I can't for work commitment in RL, but if there are a few of you there willing to roll up your sleeves and reorganize this not as a scandal sheet but a cogent logically organized survey of the topic, I'd certainly spare what time I have to help.Nishidani (talk) 20:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- A retitling along the lines you suggest 'Historic practice of concubinage in Muslim societies' sounds like an excellent idea. Islam is a synonym for terrorist, unfortunately, and in any case, Islamic always has a legalist ring, Muslim less so (in Auschwitz slang 'Muslim' meant anyone who had given up the ghost and was resigned to death.) Nishidani (talk) 21:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Great! Lets see what others say. I say 'concubinage' because this article should not focus on other forms of sexual slavery, like bacha bazi, forced marriage, forced prostitution, child sexual abuse etc. The RS don't lump all these practices together (for Muslims), so neither should this article.VR talk 21:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Anachronist: as we had this discussion, what do you think about having the scope of this article as 'Historic practice of concubinage in Muslim societies'? VR talk 21:50, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- A similar renaming proposal implies two questions: should this article focus on one particular form of sexual slavery, and should it only deal with the past? The current article is not about the “Historic practice of concubinage in Muslim societies”, and thus asking to rename it as such is incorrect (also the title has been subject of intense disputes, and in general I am personally against using “concubinage” in a title for referring to sexual slavery). As I have explained in this previous discussion, my answer to both questions is no, and I think an article on sexual slavery and Islam that spans epochs and regions, although hard to accomplish, is a worthy challenge. --Grufo (talk) 22:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- My answer to both questions is "yes" for a very simple reason: because historic concubinage is a WP:NOTABLE topic on which several RS can be found. Are there RS that try to cover all forms of sexual slavery practices by Muslims across both medieval and modern times? See Persecution by Muslims (AfD). Specific examples of persecution by Muslims are notable (Armenian genocide, Persecution of Bahais etc), but combining all these persecutions into one violates WP:NOTABILITY.VR talk 23:30, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I said before, the scope of both articles needs to be clearly separated. Until that is done, it is premature to talk about renaming this one. If the broader topic of sexual slavery has coverage in reliable sources as does the narrower topic of concubinage, then I favor the broader topic. If the broad topic results in an article too long, they can be split into separate topics, as is the usual practice. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Anachronist: thanks for the response and I agree that defining the scope is more important than any renaming. From my reading, sources seem focused on male-female concubinage and there's no evidence that they conflate it with other forms of sexual slavery. The absence of sources is usually a very good argument on wikipedia for rejecting a scope. Also, if we're going for a broader scope, then there's also the option of merging into History of slavery in the Muslim world.VR talk 14:24, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- As I said before, the scope of both articles needs to be clearly separated. Until that is done, it is premature to talk about renaming this one. If the broader topic of sexual slavery has coverage in reliable sources as does the narrower topic of concubinage, then I favor the broader topic. If the broad topic results in an article too long, they can be split into separate topics, as is the usual practice. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- My answer to both questions is "yes" for a very simple reason: because historic concubinage is a WP:NOTABLE topic on which several RS can be found. Are there RS that try to cover all forms of sexual slavery practices by Muslims across both medieval and modern times? See Persecution by Muslims (AfD). Specific examples of persecution by Muslims are notable (Armenian genocide, Persecution of Bahais etc), but combining all these persecutions into one violates WP:NOTABILITY.VR talk 23:30, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- A similar renaming proposal implies two questions: should this article focus on one particular form of sexual slavery, and should it only deal with the past? The current article is not about the “Historic practice of concubinage in Muslim societies”, and thus asking to rename it as such is incorrect (also the title has been subject of intense disputes, and in general I am personally against using “concubinage” in a title for referring to sexual slavery). As I have explained in this previous discussion, my answer to both questions is no, and I think an article on sexual slavery and Islam that spans epochs and regions, although hard to accomplish, is a worthy challenge. --Grufo (talk) 22:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- A retitling along the lines you suggest 'Historic practice of concubinage in Muslim societies' sounds like an excellent idea. Islam is a synonym for terrorist, unfortunately, and in any case, Islamic always has a legalist ring, Muslim less so (in Auschwitz slang 'Muslim' meant anyone who had given up the ghost and was resigned to death.) Nishidani (talk) 21:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- This one should be renamed because while it is widely recognized in scholarship that all three Abrahamic faiths condoned legally or by silence the sexual exploitation of slaves, we only have an article for Islam. Nothing like Sexual slavery in Judaism (a short paragraph, totally ahistorical, exists at Jewish views on slavery, which should be retitled 'Slavery in Jewish/Judaic Tradition' since 'Jewish views' implies an ethnic outlook), Sexual slavery in Christianity (Christian views on slavery hushes it all up, or buries it in vague quotations of ostensible general principle from primary sources). Some years ago, this was indeed the direct problem addressed in a book edited by Bernadette Brooten, Beyond Slavery: Overcoming Its Religious and Sexual Legacies, Palgrave Macmillan 2010 ISBN 978-0-230-11389-3 p.3.
Slavery as a legal institution has existed for most of recorded history and was allowed by Jewish, Christian, and Islamic sacred texts, traditions, and religious nlaw. The forms of slavery varied considerably but shared the underlying concepts of owning a human body. That concept has had a profound impact on Jewish, Christian,. and Islamic thinking about sexuality and about marriage between women and men,. At the same time, these religions have within them the mercy and compassion necessary to overcome slavery and its long-term effects.' p.3 etc.
- Or as she summed it up in a more accessible interview at the time.
- The titling has a strong POV slanting that suggests Islam was anomalous to the humanity of the other two. So we have a Judeo-Christian systemic bias which is reading the Islamic part of a common tradition in terms of outrages committed by ISIS and Boko Haram recently, that are read back into the core of Islamic civilization while quietly ignoring the shared roots.
- That this is witting seems evident from the simple fact that, when I noted that common legacy in the lead, drawing on books directly attesting to this cross-faith heritage, it was immediately removed, lock stock and barrel, despite the high quality, and thematic pertinence of three academic source.Nishidani (talk) 10:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: we have do Pilegesh, which covers Biblical slave concubinage (Hagar, Bilhah, Zilpah etc). Interestingly the article uses the softer term "maidservant" even though RS agree they were slaves (eg[15]). Also of interest is that Pilegesh does not cover Human trafficking in Israel, nor should it, because the two are totally separate topics. Yet these things are being conflated here, which is why a consensus on scope is so important.VR talk 14:24, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Here are 2 good reads:
- Hildebrandt-Wypych, Dobrochna, and Wiseman, Alexander W.. Comparative Perspectives on School Textbooks: Analyzing Shifting Discourses on Nationhood, Citizenship, Gender, and Religion. Germany, Springer International Publishing, 2021. Chapter 3 silence of slavery in textbooks ~Laura Dull
- Močnik, Nena (26 May 2021). "A lesson on war-related sexual violence in a history classroom: Discussion points for educators". Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies. 43 (2, Lessons from Sexual Violence in Mass Atrocity Crimes: Toward Preventive Pedagogies in History Education, editor-in-chief Kira Baker-Doyle). Taylor Francis Online: 103-118. doi:10.1080/10714413.2021.1919005. ISSN 1556-3022.
- Synopsis: Atrocities against women need to be accounted for and discussed and not silenced with some or the other excuse and not even with whataboutery. 'Women deserve justice' (read again)
- Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 12:26, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- "Women deserve justice" sounds like WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Atrocities against women should be covered at Wartime sexual violence. Wartime sexual violence by Muslims is not a notable topic.VR talk 14:24, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- To take credit one comes ahead saying our kind of slavery is different, when time comes for taking responsibility coming out of same difference the same people finger point elsewhere finding excuses presenting apologetic to censor is strange.
- Secondly it is well known fact that there is systemic bias against women issues in Wikipedia and I don't feel apologetic to set it right. (And pl do mind the fact where included criticism in the content was over the board I have taken lead to set it right. I have taken lead for equality for Muslims I have taken lead for equality for muslim women I have taken lead for equality for non Muslim women and all in Wikipedia parameters)
- Technicalities are being employed to sideline encyclopedic merit and silencing issues regarding atrocities on women is the main concern.
Nishidani's edits
1. Under the claim of "NPOV" Nishidani has decided to add text to the opening of the article to make out that sexual slavery is not unique to Islam but is practised in other cultures as well. Leaving aside that the specific mention of Mediterranean is incorrect because sexual slavery was practised all over the world, do we start an article like Marriage in Islam or Polygamy in Islam by talking about the universality of marriage and polygamy across global cultures? Then why do this for sexual slavery in Islam? The opening sentence has to be about Islam and sexual slavery since that is what the article is about. Mcphurphy (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
Nishidani has decided to add text to the opening of the article to make out that sexual slavery is not unique to Islam but is practised in other cultures as well.
- That is what several sources explicitly state. I gave the evidence. You erased it.
the specific mention of Mediterranean is incorrect because sexual slavery was practised all over the world
- What has that got to do with the price of chips? 'Mediterranean' is in the source quoted. If one says, 'honour and shame' are important social values in 'Mediterranean' societies ( J. G. Peristiany, Honour and Shame: The Values of Mediterranean Society, University of Chicago Press, 1974 ISBN 978 -0-226-65714-1), the intention is not to imply something unique to the former and thereby implicitly deny those binary concepts are practiced elsewhere. Grasping at straws.Nishidani (talk) 10:31, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
2. Nishidani has decided to give equal weight in the very beginning of the article to traditionalist interpretations and modernist interpretations of Islamic law despite the centuries of jurisprudence behind the former. I am not against including the revisionist modern interpretations. Indeed, we already had them in our article. But it should be written towards the end of the lead to reflect that the modernist interpretations defy the consensus of traditional Islamic scholarship and is a new interpretation of Islamic law without precedent in mainstream Islam. Mcphurphy (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Mā malakat aymānukum ('those whom your right had possesses') in the Qur'an and later juridic rulings refers to the twofold aspect of enslavement: the acceptance of it as a practice endorsed by tradition and (b) regard for the welfare of those reduced to slavery. Our text ignores this, and highlights predatorial screwing. Of course, like Christianity, Islam observed the exhortations to treat slaves with respect more in the breach than the observance.Nishidani (talk) 10:29, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Moreover, it seems Nishidani has not even read the Mufti source which they have cited to support the distinction between traditionalists allowing sexual slavery and modernists disallowing it. Nowhere in this source [16] does it say modernists don't allow sex with slaves and only traditionalists do. This makes out Nishidani's sentence of "Islamic law has traditionalist and modernist interpretations,[4] and the former allowed men to have sexual intercourse with their female slaves"
to be a case of WP:SYNTH Mcphurphy (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- If you cannot again construe the prose of your interlocutor, then desist from arguing and stick to editwarring. I nowhere asserted that 'modernists don't allow sex with slaves and only traditionalists do.' Modernists generally ignore the tradition (as an embarrassment) as archaic and no longer part of modern societies.I read the source, rather than, like the editor who introduced it, cherrypicking and distorting one phrase from p.5. Nishidani (talk) 10:29, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
3. The references to Islam encouraging manumission of slaves in the lead are also WP:UNDUE and sidetrack the focus of the article. While Islam certainly considers emancipating slaves to be a virtuous deed, it still allowed slavery it and made way for it. Mcphurphy (talk) 23:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Why is noting that Islam both endorsed slavery and, on the basis of Mohammad's own words, orchestrated principles of manumission, undue? All you have is a personal assertion. Nishidani (talk) 10:29, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Nishidani used scholarly sources to give the article context. Your removal and above explanation sounds like WP:IDONTLIKEIT.VR talk 23:31, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles must be based on what relevant reliable sources say. If the reliable source said "Mediterranean" cultures, then it supports Mediterranean cultures (and does not support statements about central-American cultures). Since the founders of Islam had contact with Mediterranean cultures this is relevant - the founders of Islam did not have contact with central-American cultures, so the practice in central-America is not relevant.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- I would propose to begin the article with “I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying”. If anyone protests I will say that a source said it (Oscar Wilde). A Wikipedia editor decides what to quote, not a source. Islam was not even born in the Mediterranean. --Grufo (talk) 15:16, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- On the contrary, Grufo, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad went to Syria many times[17]. Within 30 years of Muhammad's death, Damascus was the capital of the Muslim world. There is an entire scholarly book that "shows that Christian and Muslim inhabitants of the Mediterranean shared a set of assumptions and practices that amounted to a common culture of slavery"[18].VR talk 15:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- I would propose to begin the article with “I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying”. If anyone protests I will say that a source said it (Oscar Wilde). A Wikipedia editor decides what to quote, not a source. Islam was not even born in the Mediterranean. --Grufo (talk) 15:16, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- I am sure the contacts were strong, but Mediterranean culture was not the root culture of Islam, and probably we would have a different religion if it had been – this last statement is not falsifiable, thus may not count. --Grufo (talk) 15:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Who said anything about the root culture? And what is that anyway? Islam's formation is impossible to grasp without the Jewish/Christian background, just as Islamic law and culture is incomprehensible without the profound impact of Greek philosophy etc. Don't contradict sources by shifting the goalposts.Nishidani (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- I am sure the contacts were strong, but Mediterranean culture was not the root culture of Islam, and probably we would have a different religion if it had been – this last statement is not falsifiable, thus may not count. --Grufo (talk) 15:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Opening an article about Islam with an introduction about slavery in the Mediterranean is the goalpost shift. I did not
contradict sources
– although, with a bit of time available, I might do that too, as I doubt there is anything typically Mediterranean in the sexual exploitation of slaves. If you want a proper introduction of that kind in the lead, it should speak about Arabian Peninsula and pre-Islamic Arabic culture; and it must not have whataboutistic purposes, it must simply lead to where sexual slavery in the scriptures might come from (and no, it does not come from Mediterranean culture). --Grufo (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)- Agreed with Grufo. I read the reply above which was difficult to find because Nishidani broke my comment in order to do so. But what they have said does not answer my arguments. Placing a sentence at the very beginning of an article about Sexual slavery and Islam on Mediterranean culture is both undue and a deflection from the subject of the article. And it makes no sense because sexual slavery was also a part of many other ancient cultures, not just Mediterranean. What's with the attempt to make this article out to be about the Mediterranean? Mcphurphy (talk) 03:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
- This would be correct if you planned to only talk about the subject with respect to the Arabian Peninsula: since this article appears to clutch at the entire gamut of Muslim history and the Islamic World, the background of the entire Islamic world is appropriate. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:54, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
- Opening an article about Islam with an introduction about slavery in the Mediterranean is the goalpost shift. I did not
- The objection raised by both Mcphurphy and Grufo has been met with the this responsive edit, in compliance with our obligation to edit collaboratively.Nishidani (talk) 14:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
- (a)If both of you cannot grasp the difference between what a sentence states, and what a reader can imagine it might be implying, in their imaginations, then dialogue becomes impossible. You are both making inferences that complicate a simple source-based commonplace.
- 'Sexual slavery in Islam' begins awkwardly in medias res, unlike all standard articles.
Islamic law allows men to have sexual intercourse with their female slaves.
- compare the incipits of the similar Jewish views on slavery
Jewish views on slavery are varied both religiously and historically. Judaism's ancient and medieval religious texts contain numerous laws governing the ownership and treatment of slaves - -.The original Israelite slavery laws found in the Hebrew Bible bear some resemblance to the 18th-century BCE slavery laws of Hammurabi.
- and Christian views on slavery
Christian views on slavery are varied regionally, historically and spiritually. Slavery in various forms has been a part of the social environment for much of Christianity's history, spanning well over eighteen centuries. In the early years of Christianity, slavery was an established feature of the economy and society in the Roman Empire.
- In both we have a generalization about variation over time (exactly corresponding to my point, rapidly erased, about 'traditionalist' vs 'modernist'.
- In both we have a broader historical context. For Judaism, slavery under Hammurabi; for Christianity, slavery in the Roman Empire.
- So, when I modulated the blunt lead sentence to put this on an equal footing with the style of the other two related articles, I was doing nothing abnormal or off my own bat.
The sexual exploitation of slaves by their owners was a common practice in Mediterranean societies, and had persisted, with distinct legal differences, among the three Abrahamic religious , since antiquity.'
- The arguments above about WP:Undue - the most subjective weapon in POV pushing -don't hold water, also because as one can see, the adjustment makes this lead perfectly consonant with the examples from the leads of two related articles. The others, about imagined inferences, or tautologies, idem. I will restore the text.Nishidani (talk) 13:38, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
List of useful references
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 04:16, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the sources. They are useful for verifiability, but they can't establish notability for "sexual slavery in Islam [for all time]", as each of the sources is focused on a particular region and time period.VR talk 14:26, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- A 'list' article will help ?
- Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- WP:NLIST says "
a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources
".VR talk 14:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- WP:NLIST says "
- Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Okay over all that means what remains is matter of time and how to provide encyclopedic space. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:59, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Defining the scope of this article
The scope of this article should be the history of concubinage in the Muslim world because that is what meets WP:GNG. (Concubinage is defined, in the Islamic context, as the practice of men having sexual relationships with their female slaves)
WP:GNG is met by these sources: Concubines and Courtesans covers pre-modern concubinage in the Muslim world across 7th-18th centuries, Queens, Eunuchs and Concubines in Islamic History, 661-1257 covers it for a shorter period; there is an entry for concubinage in the following encyclopedias: Medieval Islamic Civilization, Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān, Encyclopaedia of Islam, The Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam and Women, Islam: A Worldwide Encyclopedia, Historical Dictionary of Women in the Middle East and North Africa.
By contrast Mcphurphy insists that the scope must be "all the historical instances of sexual slavery practised by Muslims, including more modern cases". Does Mcphurphy realize just how broad that topic is? Here are some of the forms of sexual slavery practised by Muslims:
- Sex trafficking in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Kygyzstan, in Brunei, in Kazakhstan etc. Forced prostitution in the Middle East.
- Forced marriage (a type of sexual slavery) happens in many Muslim-majority countries (see also Vani). Child marriage is practiced in several Muslim-majority countries (some have connected it to age of Aisha at marriage).
- Muslim men had sexual relations with their male slaves in Turkey[19], India[20] etc.
- Grufo said bacha bazi, a form of sexual slavery in Afghanistan, should be included in this article. Other forms of child sexual slavery: child sex tourism which happens in Muslim countries too; and Muslims were involved in Kasur child sexual abuse scandal and Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal.
Where are the RS that conflate all these into a single topic? I have seen sources cover various forms of sexual slavery in a specific context (eg this covers various forms sexual slavery during Indonesian genocide). But "all the historical instances of sexual slavery practised by Muslims" no more passes WP:GNG than "all the historical instances of sexual slavery practised by Christians" (or Hindus, or atheists, etc). In fact the only "Sexual slavery in X" article that exists is Sexual slavery in China, which is a stub and limits itself to modern China. So sexual slavery in Islam is a glaring exception, and given that it fails WP:GNG, it seems like an WP:ATTACK page.
Previously, Persecution by Muslims was deleted due to WP:SYNTH and non-notability (even though instances of persecution by Muslims are individually notable, like Armenian genocide, persecution of Bahais etc). Pederasty in the Middle East and Central Asia was similarly deleted for WP:SYNTH and POV-pushing issues.VR talk 02:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- I agree, I think it is pretty sensible to draw the line for the examples in this article at the close of the Ottoman Empire. Concubinage and sexual slavery are both archaic terms for archaic practices, and, following both abolition, and the nation-building and nationalism of the 20th century, it makes more sense to define most 20th to 21st-century examples of kidnapping and sexual enslavement in the Middle East and wherever as, just as you say, "Sexual trafficking in XYZ country" - even then, some of the example here would not qualify, such a that of Boko Haram references: you wouldn't even use these in an article called "Sexual trafficking in Nigeria", because it would be stupidly imprecise. It is only really relevant to: "Sexual trafficking by Boko Haram" or simple inclusion on the Boko Haram page. Anyone who thinks Boko Haram is even tangentially useful as an example of long-term practice in Islam is a moron. For a start, Nigeria has a Muslim-led government that is waging war against it as the terrorist cult that it is. Secondly, it's ridiculously fringe - it's founding preacher discourages reading any book other than the Qur'an, including the Hadith and Sunna, believes the earth is flat and that evaporation as a concept is fake news. Boko Haram is the worst example, but all of the examples in the "Modern/recurrent manifestations" section are ridiculously tangential. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:39, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
'Female slavery in Muslim world'
Slavery in Islamic world in general and female slavery in Islamic world are distinct phenomenon, which deserves some credit and some accountability both (as available in source–able content), hence do deserve distinct articles.
Though mostly it is historical but attempts and apologetics favoring revivalism has been observed time and again in some of global pockets.
Hence I suggest broader topic 'Female slavery in Muslim world'
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 05:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think this is thinking in the right direction, but making the subject even broader like this may not be entirely helpful. For example, he category of "female slaves" would also include women enslaved purely for labour, such as domestic chores. The wider problem with this article is that it currently covers both concubinage (which depending on the epoch of history could involve concubines who were enslaved or free), sexual slavery more broadly, up to an including fringe terrorist groups and cults, as well as other weird examples and a litany of other abusive scenarios involving rape and kidnapping that do not necessarily fit into or act as useful examples of long-term historic practices. I'm thinking it would be more appropriate to use the slightly wordier title of Concubinage and sexual slavery in the Muslim world, which I think would more adequately cover the range of examples that we have on hand here. The broader and sometimes rather generic material on Islamic views on concubinage and slavery should all be split off/copied into Islamic views on slavery and Islamic views on concubinage, with this article only containing brief summaries of such content, with redirects to the main articles. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:18, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
See what I have gone through some recent research books, in middle east agriculture slavery was very small but it was there. Usually what has been happening is elite slavery in Turkey in Ottoman times had been taking all the lime light but slow but steady research in non–elite Ottoman times Muslim world slavery beyond Turkey is coming up.
Female slavery in Muslim world was much more complex phenomenon. At some times African female slaves were used just for domestic duties and European and Asian female slaves were used for sexual to concubinage to marital levels, again it's very fluid nothing is hard and fast. So in some cases domestic and sexual female slavery might appear distinct but again complexity is Islamic law does not distinguish between slaves as sex slaves concubines or domestic duty slaves. Again takfiri was too simple to claim a Muslim tO be non Muslim and give treatment like Kafir women in conflict times. So situation for individual females was much fluid. So accordingly we need to have a article title IMHO.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Medieval Muslim literature and legal documents show that those female slaves whose main use was for sexual purposes were distinguished in markets from those whose primary use was for domestic duties. They were called "slaves for pleasure" or "slave-girls for sexual intercourse".
- this sentence in the intro (possibly from Pernilla), seems to suggest that there were discrete concepts for domestic and sexual roles - albeit, it's one sentence from where I know not. Regardless, it certainly does seem that, at least conceptually, there is a separate body of Islamic legal thinking about the dilemmas entailed in sexual intercourse with a slave - all the points about when it is permissable, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- C-Class Islam-related articles
- Low-importance Islam-related articles
- WikiProject Islam articles
- C-Class Sexology and sexuality articles
- Low-importance Sexology and sexuality articles
- WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles
- C-Class Gender studies articles
- Low-importance Gender studies articles
- WikiProject Gender studies articles
- C-Class Women's History articles
- Low-importance Women's History articles
- All WikiProject Women-related pages
- WikiProject Women's History articles