User talk:Deeceevoice

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Jrdioko

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Your welcome basket

Well if you insist, here's your welcome basket, Wikipedia style:

• Some fresh fruit
• Ghirardelli squares with lots of caramel

Enjoy!  – Jrdioko (Talk) 05:58, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Talk:Eddie Murphy

Perhaps you would like to add a comment to the debate on this page. Rmhermen 16:35, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)

Jazzy Welcome

A belated welcome from me as well. I'm glad to have you on board! I'll no doubt be seeing you around jazz related articles. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 18:20, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Jacking in from African American

Welcome. I had a bit of response about race riot over in Talk:African American, but I thought I'd add something here as well. I really admire the combination of cold rage and cold hard facts that you've put into that article.

I wonder what you think of blackface. I put a lot of stuff into that that confused people, but I think it has held up against the mind-numbers. The scale of injustice may not be quite the same, but I had some hassles straightening out the redneck article (my people, sort of), which was nothing but stupid jokes when I got there. Really stupid jokes.

Is there a black venue where you could promote Wikipedia contribution? Something online? Good luck, anyway. Ortolan88 22:50, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

PS-later -- I appreciate your thoughtfulness and compliments re blackface, but it has caused me to think more about perhaps starting an article on black influence on popular culture. You probably don't hate Elvis as much as I hate Led Zeppelin, but these white guys (including me) really do love black music. I sound kind of black when I sing, because almost all the singers I like are black. Such an article could wrap up lots of stuff, particularly the profound influence of black musicians on country music, where many of the greatest names had black mentors, Elvis (Ike Turner), Hank Williams, Carl Perkins, etc. I'm just making notes here, but I observe that white jazz musicians for the most part do not try to do the Mick Jagger thing, but simply play and let the show-biz stuff go, but that goes for black jazz musicians too. I'll let you know when I start anything.

As for black venues, how about fraternities and sororitys? Keep on keeping on, Ortolan88 23:24, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

More on Blackface/Ortolan

Hey, Ortolan *waving*. Sorry to be so late responding, but I'm a techno-idiot and just figured out how to do this. I like, pretty much, the most recent changes to African American. (I'm even warming to the divisions.) I took a look at your piece on blackface and made some changes. However, I removed the stuff about white artists covering black artists, because it's simply not blackface. Yeah, it's white folks stealing black music and/or mimicking performance styles, but it's not the same -- and, I think, somewhat diminishes the value of the black innovators being ripped off. Instead, I stuck in a quote which, perhaps, says more succinctly what you may have had in mind. I think you did a respectable job with the subject, and I'm glad you tackled it.

As far as getting more black folks to contribute to Wikipedia, I don't know anyone. Most of my friends and associates are activisits who, frankly, have better, more real-world things to do -- battles to fight, wrongs to right -- that kinda stuff. I did once make mention of Wikipedia on BlackPlanet a long while back, but that place has turned into such a cesspool, I think another mention would simply attract vandalism. What can ya do? Peace. deeceevoice 17:48, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Went back and reread, then restored your cover stuff. Thought it important (I hate Elvis!) and noticed the language about "admiration." Cool. :-) deeceevoice 22:33, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've gone back and even more substantially reworked, rewritten and expanded blackface to include its racist iconography and impact on American culture. I had to -- particularly after noting the igorance/naivete of some of the comments in the discussion thread. Besides, IMO, it's too important in the shaping of the American psyche (how I wanted to use that word, but I figured some ignorant asshole would flag it as violating NPOV) shouldn't be treated as merely as an entertainment phenomenon. Let me know what you think. Peace. deeceevoice 15:47, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hadn't heard from you on my recent extensive rewrite/edits to blackface after posting the above notes to your page. So, I thought I'd post them here. deeceevoice 00:41, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Welcome aboard.

Hi,

I am enjoying, and agreeing with, your comments on the race page. That article was the third thing I looked at on Wikipedia (after spiders and carrier pigeons -- both topics on which hard-bound encyclopedias regularly mess up). Wow! It started with a fight with somebody who was really interested in preserving the idea of race as a real thing out there in the real world. It's gotten a lot better than it was at that time, but it is one of those articles that we are going to have to watch forevermore because people will come in and "fix" it to suit what they think they know. Fortunately, although a couple of the current contributors are IMHO tactless, I don't think anybody is currently not operating in good faith or with a crimped intellect.

One thing I've noticed is that if I do not let my ego get involved I can be much more effective in securing changes over the long run. The other thing is that if we once get something said exactly right it has its own power and can pretty much take care of itself because most of the people who might change a poorer version of the same truth on the basis of their own thinking are actually educated by the article, see the justice in the way the matter is explained, and therefore let it alone.

Once in a while you will find the glorious exception to general Wikipedia practice, somebody who disagrees with you, maybe wants to change something you've put much effort into, actually reads your response and then says, "Now I understand. And the article should also reflect more clear that other thing you just wrote." Maybe you, too, will have the pleasure of bumping into Fenice somewhere on these virtual pages. Pat (P0M 11:23, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC))

P.S. On your most recent edit to the talk page for the Race article I think you ticked the "This is a minor edit" box. Ordinarily people only use that if they made no substantive change (i.e., fixed a spelling error, added a comma). It helps people who are seriously interested in an article, however, to know when a significant change has occurred, so if there is any doubt in my mind I left it unchecked. That way nobody will flame me for messing with their perfect prose. ;-)

"Talk"

When you get to the user page, just click on the "discussion" tab, and then click "edit this page" (or click the + symbol to add something new. (Hope that answers your question, I am a bit of a newbie too) Guettarda 19:13, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Racism at Wikipedia?

Have you happened to come across an Egyptologist here? There's a statement at Talk:List of interracial, interethnic or intercultural couples that I was going to just leave but I think I should speak to it, or visitors will just assume it to be true.

Can you also look at Talk:Black British usage and tell me if you think this person was attempting a joke? [Deeceevoice seems to think I'm overly sensitive ;)]

Quill 22:26, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Response at Quill's page Quill 21:21, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Appreciation and Question and Request

Firstly, appreciated your tremendous improvements to soul food. I have two questions in that regard. 1) Do you think that "fat back" should be added, or at least mentioned. 2)Do you think that cabbage ought to be mentioned as a common ingredient in chow-chow? Another request (based on your screen name): Would you consider looking at my article District of Columbia home rule with an eye to improving it? It's been several years since I lived in the District area, but the idea of citizens of the U.S. mainland being essentially unrepresented in Congress and without effective control over their municiapl government is still pretty disturbing, and seemed to need its own article with a slightly different emphasis (more historical) than the good section on the Washington, DC page. Thanks! Rlquall 15:22, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

For the record:

I'm not Japanese. I have lived in the United States almost all of my life. Right now, I live in North Philadelphia and walk up Broad Street every day, through the heart of one of America's largest black communities. I don't profess to be an expert on African-American culture, but I have studied ethnography and world cultures for years, and I have worked on a number of diversity-related projects in my predominantly Afro-Caribbean high school and in my higher education. Your assumptions about my background are therefore entirely false.

I'm not mad at you, but I suggest that you exercise slightly better judgment in the future if you want people to take you seriously. In fact, I strongly suggest that you re-read Pat's note above. It's entirely true and it will probably save you a great many unnecessary fights. Name-calling does not win on Wikipedia; facts win on Wikipedia. - Sekicho 21:56, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

"Name-calling"? WHAT name calling? Secondly, I have some advice for you. Before you crticize an article in which many people have invested a great deal of time and effort, it might help if you took time to READ it. (It would save you the trouble of writing paragraphs and paragraphs of crap -- and then going back and deleting them, as you've done.) Further, you're welcome for the patient advice I extended to you -- despite your obvious attitude. Thirdly, you say you've studied ethnography for a number of years. Yet you presume to say (and quite erroneously) that African-Americans are not an ethnic group? Amazing. Not only have you lived here all your life, but you've studied to be so abysmally clueless. LOL Further, I already am taken seriously on Wikipedia, thank you very much. I've made numerous contributions to several subjects dealing with African-Americans that, IMO, have made them far better than they would have been without my input. And that's a fact. :-p deeceevoice 22:31, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Etymology of "hip" and "dig" in Hipster

I noticed that you changed the statements about the etymology of "hip" and "dig" in Hipster to state that the "likely" origin is from Wolof. From some cursory research, it looks like these hypotheses are due to Prof. Clarence Major of UC Davis, but are very far from being broadly accepted. Is there particular scientific evidence you know of that renders these substantially "likelier" than the various other alternative etymologies that have been proposed?

I understand that this topic may be somewhat political, since all of us who are descended from relatively small ethnic groups (myself included) are wont to take some amount of pride in evidence of English borrowing from our ancestral language. However, as a linguist (by training), I'm wary of statements as fact (or as "likely" fact) of etymologies that are not established as such (by the proper standards of the linguistic community, which are substantially more rigorous than folk etymologies might have you believe). Zyqqh 19:10, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's got nothing to do with wishful thinking. There are lots of words Africa has contributed to the English language via African-American input. The hipster argot originated with black jazz musicians and the use of AAVE. Certain slang words were merely appropriated by white hangers on. It is far more likely that "dig" is from Wolof than from Irish because of the cultural milieu in which it is in evidence -- along with the fact that there are other slang words in AAVE -- also in use in hipster argot -- that are African in origin. Jazz is an African-American creation. The "fraternity," if you will, of black jazz musicians had its origins in areas of the country and at a time in which the black community was still highly insular/segregated/separated and in many ways was still highly Africanized -- Thelonius Monk, for instance, jumping up from the piano and shuffling around counterclockwise. The moments of the sun.

Irish? That's a real stretch -- and certainly far less likely than African origins. If you have another source for "hep cat," I'd certainly be interested in hearing it. deeceevoice 19:47, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing

Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 2000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:

• Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
• Multi-Licensing Guide
• Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Option 1

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

OR

Option 2

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions to any [[U.S. state]], county, or city article as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" with "{{MultiLicensePD}}". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

A note about the changes in the AAVE article

Thank you so much for contributing while I'm making such massive changes.

Here's the story. As an agreement with my linguistics professor, in leu of a paper on AAVE, I decided to fill the Wikipedia articles on the subject, since Wikipedia is my new thang. However, as is typical, I procrastinated a bit too long, and am now scouring whatever sources I have to get content into the page, so I have something to show. Some of it may be naïve or even outright wrong, but I'm trying as hard as I can to root what I say in respected fact and from an NPOV.

Anyway, thanks for proof-reading. :-) If I say something stupid, you don't have to bother to ask me what I meant, as I probably just overgeneralized from my hasty reading.

Thanks, Luqui 22:48, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)

US music

Hi, I was wondering if you might be willing to give some thoughts on music of the United States, especially the section on black "roots" music. The article is already at 32k, so we can't put much more info in (and, of course, there is aleady an article on African American music itself), but it could use some TLC from someone who knows more, especially about blackface minstrelsy. I'd like to nominate US music as a featured article soon, so I'm trying to get everything tidied up. Thanks! Tuf-Kat 17:24, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Hey, Tuf-Kat! Been seein' your work around Wikipedia. You a real music freak aincha, bwoi? :-p Well, I took a real quick look at only portions of some article subtopics, and I see problems all over the place. IMO, while the piece may be basically sound (I don't know; as I said, I haven't read it), from a quick look, I'd say this is a long way from bein' ready for prime time -- and not just the section on black roots music. I'd really like to help out, but stuff always seems to pile up just before the holidays, and this time is no exception. I just don't have time right now. How 'bout holding off 'til after the new year? It really does need some serious work in the black folks department.

You might want to invite User:Ortolan88 to comment on the piece. Based on his attempts with blackface, he seems to be a guy with some decent knowledge and appropriate (kind of) sensibilities when it comes to at least some of the later-era stuff vis-a-vis black folks. I'm not inviting him in, 'cause this is "your" thing; you decide. Don't know if he got the ass 'cause I extensively rewrote his piece (after he asked me in on it) or what, but dat bwoi jus' won't write me back! :-p But I think he may have some interesting/useful contributions, in general, as well.

Peace 2 u. deeceevoice 12:50, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mau Mau Uprising

Thanks! The old article was definitely an embarrassment. I was just going to ignore it, but I couldn't get its sheer awfulness out of my head. It's basically jigsawed into my own contribution and there's still some cringeworthy stuff worthy of a massive edit, but at least it doesn't seem to conjure up images of the grass-skirt clad natives at the beginning of King Kong anymore.  ;) p.s. K=Kalorama? BanyanTree 04:27, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Blackface references

Where are you getting your information from? Unless we get some references we can't really make it a featured article, and I'd like to see it as one as its well written (apart from the headings!) Ta bu shi da yu 12:42, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks mate :) I do appreciate your kind words! I'm always impressed by how encouraging people can be on this site, especially to people who aren't doing so well. I'm in a much better state now so I'll be reverting back. It's good to know that people are very kind on this site though :-) Anyway, I'd love to see some references and I'd love to see your hard work and well researched and written article get recognition around here! Apart from the fact that it'll make the article a lot more "solid" (not sure if that's the right term). Not sure if I agree about the comment on articles that hit featured article status, but I appreciate your honesty! If you have any specific objections to a specific article let me know and I'll see if we can get our FAC crew to look into them for us :-) Ta bu shi da yu 14:02, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Deeceevoice, I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed Blackface. It's a great read, very well written, very interesting. I've put my support for it on the page. Don't be discouraged! I've self-nominated two articles for Featured Article status now (so far, one has made it; I'm still working to improve the second). Both were heavily criticized to start with, and I know what that feels like when you've put a lot of work into something. It's gut-wrenching. But it's tough out there! Try to incorporate some of the objections; argue with the ones you really don't agree with; try to reach a compromise. Provide good references. It's a pain in the neck but you'll make it. Your article IS the best of Wikipedia and it deserves that label. Slim 10:12, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

Bias and Equal Protection

Couldn't agree with you more that there's systemic bias on Wikpedia. Glad you are trying to fix that; don't get discouraged; keep it up.

Apropos of this, are you interested in working on Equal Protection Clause with me? I don't know if you have any interest in the law at all, but if you do, please join me; the history of legal discrimination against minorities in the U.S. is a topic that has not yet gotten adequate treatment on Wikipedia. Hydriotaphia 20:13, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. One question, though—when you wrote, "When skimming the article, I was led to inquire about institutional racism and found it just appallingly abominable in so many ways -- not to mention itself racist as hell," were you talking about the article on institutional racism or the article on the Equal Protection Clause? If it was the latter, please do tell me. Best, Hydriotaphia 15:23, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

Oh, disregard the above; it's clear to me now that institutional racism was what you were talking about (at least so it seems to me). Jesus H. Christ, that article was absolutely awful before you got a hold of it. Uff da, as my people say. Especially horrible was that BS about the "far left." My personal take on all of this, though you may disagree, is that it's not so much racism as it is the kind of selfish and ridiculous libertarianism that is found everywhere on the internet among white people who for utterly foolish reasons have come to believe that they're being persecuted. But perhaps that's naive of me, and it's just straight-up racism. At any rate I really hope you won't give up on this. Can't stress enough how happy I am that you're here. Hydriotaphia 16:08, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

Hey, deeceevoice, I've got yet another favor to ask of you. Could you

1. Look over my Equal Protection Clause article when you have time, and if you support it, please add your support at the Featured article candidates page?
2. If you don't support it, please lay your criticisms on me!
3. I'm afraid that people are going to give me sh*t for my account of affirmative action in the article—not NPOV, etc. etc. Tell me what you think of it.

Hmm, this has turned into favors, not just one favor. Well—you don't have to do all of these things, obviously. (Or any of them, for that matter!) Happy holidays, Hydriotaphia 00:44, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

WP:3RR on Modern anti-Semitism - 24 hour block

Really. We mean it about the three-revert rule. Doing a complicated version to try to get around it doesn't get around it either.

Please try to get along with others better. Probably the hardest thing on Wikipedia is how to work effectively with people who are actually complete dickheads - you'll break a molar gritting your teeth - but it's pretty much the most important social skill here - David Gerard 22:00, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Break a molar gritting your teeth"? You're kidding -- right? Did I somehow give the impression that I take all this that seriously? No. I won't/don't play nice w/"dickheads," and I don't dance for anyone. I've been shut down for 24 hours so many times when it had nothing to do with me, that this doesn't even begin to faze me. I think my revisions were fitting and proper. If Wikipedia wants to be intimidated by a handful of hypersensitive, Zionist azzholes who can't stand to read a differing opinion, then that's pretty pathetic. But, then, that's pretty much par for the course, isn't it? deeceevoice 01:34, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It really isn't helpful to characterise editors as "Zionist azzholes who can't stand to read a differing opinion..." Please do try to get along with others better. Thank you.

Unless and until you can identify yourself, keep your advice to yourself. I wonder if you favored David Gerard with similar counsel with regard to his use of "dickheads". *snorting with contempt* Don't waste my time. deeceevoice 07:04, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Edit summary

Hello. Please provide an edit summary. Thanks and happy edits. Hyacinth 02:16, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, remember edit summaries don't replace discussion pages. When someone addresses changes on an article's talk page, it's customary to respond there, not by reverting and putting comments only in the edit. That's how revert wars start. Thank you.

Martin Luther King, Sr.

I don't know if this will interest you, but this sub-stub has been given a Vote for Deletion. If you have an opinion one way or t'other, can you register your vote here:

this page's entry I'm not good at linking, so if that doesn't work can you go to the article page and follow the link that says "this page's entry", if you're so inclined? And/or if you know anything about "Daddy King" you could add it to the stub. I will add what pathetically little I know. Thanks. Quill 22:41, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Support

Keep up the good work DC. We need more of us AAs contributing to Internet media such as this. You're not alone. I've just started to take this site seriously and if we don't spend all of our time watching the AA wiki pages, we should have time to add knowledge as well. Take care. sundance 09:17, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the good wishes. Yep. The ignorance and outright racism on this site are rampant (no surprise there :-p). You don't seem to have a personal page, so I have no means of contacting you. Perhaps, you'll see this note. Peace 2 u. deeceevoice 07:49, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm here but I've seen the remarks on your page so I haven't bothered to set mine up yet...sundance 02:11, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, I'm going to start searching and adding all the AA and A person's of history that I can find to this encyclopedia. I'd also recommend reviewing the existing biographies contained in this site for biased or slanted descriptions. I found that the Desmond Tutu entry in WPedia contained a wholly slanted description of his political views that only focused on 'middle eastern' concerns and nothing on S. Africa, which is where he's spent virtually all of his political energy! sundance 02:40, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nothing on this website would surprise me. You should have seen the entry on institutional racism. If you're more computer savvy that I (not hard; I'm a techno-idiot) and have a decent photo that is in the public domain, or to which you own the rights, please add one to dreadlocks. They had a photo of some white bwoi's tired imitation of them. (Typical of the kind of shyt on this site: an article on dreads, and they post a photo of a white bwoi.) I posted a request on BlackPlanet for someone to substitute a proper one, and I think someone tried. They removed the original photo, but succeeded only in inserting the Wiki photo template logo. We need a pic of the real deal, something black and beautiful (the blacker, the nappier, the more well-groomed, the better) -- if/when you have the time.

By the way, I'm a blackwoman. Peace 2 u, brother. deeceevoice 07:05, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I've corrected my reference to your person. Thanks. sundance aka objective 07:27, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, but not a big deal; ideas are ideas. I just thought it worth setting the record straight. :-) I don't know if I wanna spend "all" my time on this site; it's not that critical. But I do check regularly to see/correct what kind of nonsense/lies are being written about the race. I've found there are some folks here who mean well, but precious fewer who really have a clue about us, our history, our culture (even among other black contributors). And if the white/Asian contributors aren't blatantly racist (didja see my little love note below?/kinda pathetic that some azzhole like that actually believes such words have any impact, like I'm lookin' for validation -- and in the eyes of the enemy, no less. Shee-it. lol), many of them seem intentionally obtuse. And then, of course, there's the usual arrogance. (But what else is new?) SOS. :-p deeceevoice 09:16, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

For the Racists, a Place to Call Your Very Own

You may as well leave your comments here. This is where they'll end up, anyway. deeceevoice 16:30, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• ur a dead nigger -- anonymous note, 31 Jan 2005

Um, nope. Wrong on both counts. But you're most definitely a coward and a fool. KMBA. lol :-p deeceevoice 20:09, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• "die nigger die" -- 70.88.129.205, 2 Jan 2005

• die nigger die -- a reprise from 70.88.129.205, 2 Feb 2005

African American

Thanks for sticking up for RickK - admins catch a lot of flack, so we appreciate support. (And also, as I'm sure I don't need to point out to you, bogus claims of bias/racism are bad because they devalue the real ones...)

Also, yes, I deleted "claim" because I was concerned that it might be misread in the "purported/specious" sense, and I wanted to make it a simple statement of fact. (I thought about changing it to "proudly claim", but that would have been potentially inaccurate as I have no data to show that it's generally true.) I put in "some" to make it plain that there's a mix (as opposed to 'pure' "European, Native American or Asian ancestry", which is one literally correct reading of the sentence without it, although it's obviously an illogical one). Also, I would have stayed with "or", because I don't know that all African-Americans with some mixed ancestry have all three in their background. (I suppose that technically the most correct would be the horrible "and/or" - I forget, is the logical "and/or" included in the normal English reading of "or"? Clearly the engineer in me is showing through! :-). Noel (talk) 16:19, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PS: I don't usually check other User_talk: pages (so that I don't have to monitor a whole long list of User_Talk: pages - one for each person with whom I am having a "conversation"), so please leave any messages for me on my talk page (above); if you leave a message for me here I probably will not see it. I know not everyone uses this style (they would rather keep all the text of a thread in one place), but I simply can't monitor all the User_talk: pages I leave messages on. Thanks!

Well, you may not have viewed it as "sticking up for" him (although I would certainly view saying "the passages you've tried to expunge [and which RickK replaced] are, indeed, valid" that way), but whatever label you feel is appropriate, thanks anyway!

As for "some", I sense we're having a massive case of talking past each other! The clue to the problem is, happily, given by your phrase "African Americans as a collective". See, I almost never think of any group of people as a collective, but rather as a collection of individuals. So for each individual, many (most, I expect) have 'some' non-African ancestry. (Although I suppose it all depends on what one understands by the phrase "X has Y ancestry" - does that meant they are 100% Y, or does it simply mean that there is some - that word again! - Y back there. I read the former, but I can see that others might read the latter.) But I can cheefully live with the wording in the article as you left it - in my note to you I was just trying to explain why I felt "some" was more accurate. The "and"/"or" is a similar situation, one I won't bore you with analyzing. Noel (talk) 19:05, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Understood, but in an article devoted to African Americans, we are, indeed speaking of the group as a collective -- and not of individuals. When you say "or," that means one, but not two, or two, but not three. Yet, there are many African Americans who fit all three categories -- so, the more appropriate word is "and," speaking of the collective. Among African Americans collectively, there are all three heritages represented (no either/or implied -- just a whole characterizing a whole). An exercise in basic logic: "There are red, orange and purple balls in the boxes." Does that mean that every, single box has at least one of each color? One might assume that -- but no, not necessarily. But it does mean that in the boxes, regarded all together, there are balls of all three colors there? Yep. As I said, if one approaches the statement based simply on what it says (not what one might erroneously infer), it is completely correct. Well, enough of that! (I hated logics class.) deeceevoice 19:31, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I went back and deleted "Many," because that confuses the issue; the sentence is more correct without it. Perhaps you see my point now? Anyway, I think you're probably as bored with this by now as I am! :-p deeceevoice 19:47, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Re: "Die nigger die"

Wow. No good deed goes unreproved with you, eh? Most people are thankful their user pages are being watched out for; perhaps you should include a warning on yours, so that future overstepping, "highly presumptuous" users know to leave vandalism unreverted. You'll also save time, as you won't ever again have to chide these horrible, vandal-reverting transgressors. If you think I was out of line reverting this and all other edits made by that user, perhaps you should also admonish me for blocking him/her. Honestly, I believe your harangue was neither necessary nor appropriate. -- Hadal 14:02, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: If you strongly feel the well-intentioned removal of slurs from peoples' user pages warrants rebuke, perhaps you should review Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks (not a policy, but as you can see, it's been discussed at length already). You could propose a policy change to make such removals verboten. -- Hadal 14:40, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sensitive? Can't be a very effective admin around here if you're sensitive. :) You seem to be mistaking my facetious sarcasm for anger; as for the word "harangue," it was meant in the "disputatious address" sense (perhaps a bit obsolete; my apologies for the confusion). To reiterate: If you feel this strongly (speaking of getting a grip) about others reverting vandalism to your page, I humbly and kindly suggest you include a notice on your user page, so that you'll be saved the trouble of having to call out the "highly presumptuous" actions of other users in future. If you remain active in the community, it's only a matter of time before your user page is vandalised again (just look at the history of my user page.. sigh!). If you are appreciative of vandal reverts (or just their "intent"), as you say, the next time you choose to criticize such reverts it might be best to simply say "Thanks for the revert, but I'd prefer it if you didn't." There's no need to suggest impropriety on the part of the reverter, especially when such actions are widely supported by the community (but again, you could always propose a policy change; I'm sincere by that suggestion). Please keep wikiquette in mind, and as David Gerard has already said, please try to get along with others. Thanks! -- Hadal 18:01, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A clarification. My complaint was not that you restored the deleted text; I was addressing your deletion of a message left for me by another user. If some simpleton wants to wish me dead and call me everything but a child of God, then let 'em. Thanks for the restoration of deleted text -- but I've got some helpful advice for you w/regard to your (admitted) sarcasm and the "trying to get along with others" bit: "People in glass houses...." One can't act like a supercilious ass and then presume to lecture others on comportment. They have zero credibility. deeceevoice 12:50, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[Note: The below message is meant as an olive branch, so if you choose to read it, please keep that in mind.]

Yes, I was initially sarcastic in response to your complaint, but I did mean it (believe it or not, but perhaps over-the-top) in a bantering way (hence facetious). Tone cannot easily be conveyed through text, and in retrospect it was ill-advised. I apologise for this. I had no hostile intent, just as (it now appears) you did not. From my perspective you were making a rather illogical and (to use your word) supercilious complaint, suggesting that I was out of line for simply watching out for your user page. I thought I was doing you a favour; but for my trouble, I'm told that I am "highly presumptuous". As your refactored user page now says, "If you notice that someone has altered or deleted my language, then I'd appreciate you restoring it." That's all I thought I did; I restored your text. It's a pretty common presumption around here; that is to say, that a user will be thankful when his or her user page is quickly restored following its obliteration. (If I complained every time a thoughtful Wikipedian reverted my user page, I'd probably make a template to save time! [This is a joke.]) I suppose this (along with the suggetion [again, from my persepctive] of impropriety) is what led me to interpret your complaint as discourteous, even if it was not your intention.

I wanted to say that I regret the manner in which we've become familiar. I do see you've been an especially constructive editor and have made countless valuable contributions (especially in areas of black culture/heritage), and I'd rather we not remain on the wrong foot, as it were. The fact that you're attracting vandals means you're doing something right. Please see that this message is not meant to continue the argument, but rather is meant to put an amicable end do it. In any event, I wish you happy editing and a future free of hateful vandalism. -- Hadal 18:55, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Comments on user pages

Hi Deeceevoice,

You are certainly entitled to specify what does and does not go on your personal pages. I didn't see the slur Hadal removed, but it is the culture here to remove obvious vandalism from another's USER page while it is also practice not to edit others' comments on their TALK pages, no matter how bad. Consider it a community style thing, if nothing else.

Usual practice is that noone leave anything on a user's main page, good or bad and, if someone does it inadvertently, they often apologize.

Those who don't mind having people leave stuff on their main user page, like Jimbo Wales almost always say so. -- Cheers, Cecropia | explains it all ® 19:32, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Blackface blanking

Hey, a recent edit of yours blanked blackface. I assume it was an accident, and reverted it back to your previous edit, but I thought I'd bring it to your attention in case you meant to do something else. Tuf-Kat 21:57, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

Hi

I just wanted to compliment you on a continuing run of good edits and Talk page discussions. Things tend to get more heated than they need to, and you seme to always be able to keep your head. Unlike me.  :) RickK 22:14, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Walker reference

Just as a matter of interest, what was your "misreading" of the paragraph on Kara Walker in "Negro"? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:47, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

Melanin/superconductivity

What's all this about melanin being a superconductor? I can't find any evidence anywhere that it is one. Can you show me some sources? - furrykef (Talk at me) 06:58, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Adminship

Would you like to be nominated for adminship? I think you would make a good one. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 21:10, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

No joke. You are a great contributor, especially to black-related topics, and are also dedicated to combating vandalism. You have the the necessary tenure here and I will nominate you if you would accept the nomination. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 22:29, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

use the preview function

deeceevoice, can you revise your editing and finalize it before submission? There's a preview function you know. Otherwise it's difficult to use the history pages since your edits cover the whole freaking page and it's difficult to compare versions. Use the preview function, instead of submitting a new edit for every small grammatical changes and/or sentence shiftings.

I thought I was being helpful! lol I actually DO use the preview function. In explaining multiple edits (especially if something's a real mess) I often run out of room in the space provided. So, if someone wants an explanation of them at a glance, I have to break them up. Further, my edits often cover "the whole freaking page" because they're so numerous. They're not all nitpicky. But I'll keep your (somewhat crudely expressed) request in FREAKIN' mind. deeceevoice 06:59, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Heya

From our chat on African American to here, I wanted to see who I was chatting with. You're from DC; whereabouts? I've lived almost all my life in and around DC, from McLean to 14th St SE to Rockville, and a few other addresses in between. (I'm in North Carolina now) Anyway, as I said in the talk, your arguments make sense, and I've withdrawn my pedantry. :) (I do hope I'm using that word correctly) I'm sure you're tired of people bringing up that argument, but hey, you convinced me. --Golbez 18:03, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, there used to be a page on "home rule" but it was actually completely about statehood, which is not quite the same. Where is the one you're working on?

Also, you might appreciate this anecdote. I hope. But my mother drove up to West Virginia on business, and stopped at a general store for some local flavor, and one of the kids (I think maybe 9 or 10?) saw her DC license plate, and was absolutely shocked that she was white. :) Man, I miss that town sometimes. --Golbez 23:12, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

Black flight? Wonder if there should be an article on that. When I was going to GWU (class of 2000), I always heard that the base price for an apartment was about $750 a month, and that's in Foggy Bottom, so $1300 in Adams Morgan seems pretty expensive to me. I don't know if I ever went to Adams Morgan or Mt. Pleasant - just never got there. Never been to Georgetown, either. I mostly hung out around Dupont Circle (where my high school was) and Connecticut Ave, and K St west of the White House. And a little bit on Capitol Hill. What it sounds like this will do is move working, previously well-enough-to-do blacks and latinos from places like Adams Morgan, eastwards toward PG County, Northeast and Southeast, since I doubt the western and northern suburbs are cheaper than anything you'll find in DC itself. (Well, maybe a little, depending). So it will be interesting to see the effect that will have on the east side of the city. --Golbez 23:46, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

---

Hi just was reading your user pages - just out of interest why do you hate Elvis? PMA 20:47, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's cool PMA 22:41, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Music project?

"Oh my lucky stars!! A Negro!!" What's up, man? I didn't think we HAD any other Black Wikipedians around here. I was feeling all lonely and stuff...lol.

I have a project that I'm spearheading to try to improve the quality of R&B and soul music coverage on the Wikipedia. Since wikipedia comes up in almost every search you do for a musician, their information should be correct and informative; however R&B and soul music articles are arguably the most underwritten and/or non existant ones on the site. Would you be interested in joining the project? --b. Touch 16:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Black Codes

I noticed that you had edited the article on Black Codes a while back. Since then it has undergone a major expansion that included a change in focus. "Black Codes" went from being:

• ...laws passed by southern states in the United States during Reconstruction that limited the rights of former slaves.
• to, in a characteristic sentence,
• Contrary to popular misconception though, the Black Codes did not begin in 1865. Rather they developed over the span of half a century or more and date to the early 19th century in some northern states.

I am not sufficiently familiar with this history to know which version is correct, but the difference is so dramatic that I am concerned that there may be a distortion of meaning. I don't know if this is still an area of interest for you, but if it is then I encourage your review of the article. Cheers, -Willmcw 12:19, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. There's no rush, I'm not actively editing the article - so far just assembling some additional resources and doing some research. The current article is not about the topic you mentioned, but instead is chiefly on laws in the midwest prior to the Civil War. Negrophobia is a related article with a related problem. Anyway, whenever you have time and inclination. Meanwhile I'll keep reading up on the topic. Cheers, -Willmcw 21:15, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

good grief, man...

...I don't think they like black people 'round here. Just got back from Wikipedia:Votes for deletion, where the articles for Lil' Scrappy, Pimp C, and God's Son were all nominated for deletion! Now, I know you aren't into hip-hop, but I hear about these people (and that album) damn near every week--folk nominating things for deletion on a whim. If I were a suspicious type, I'd swear there was an agenda.--b. Touch 18:23, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

NAACP

Can I prevail on you to have a look at Talk:NAACP#This_is_not_the_Place_for_Jewish_Conspiracy_Theories. You've certainly been a voice of reason on enough other related matters. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:58, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

Support

It is a breath of fresh air to see someone stand up for what they feel is right by "any means necessary". The problem with the internet is that many people suspect that everyone that uses the internet is a white person and therefore thinks that what THEY know about black culture is fine enough. You don't go to an airline mechanic to get a tire changed on your car, ya know? Keep fighting the good fight! Oh, and going back to your comments on the horrible picture in the Afro page, I found a good one, check the page. That guy either had a wig on or a cat asleep on his head :)--Aika 22:15, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)

G.I.T.

On February 15 2005, Deeceevoice asked, while editing The Temptations article: "What does "G.I.T." stand for?"

On February 27 2005, b. Touch replied: "Get It Together". G.I.T. on Broadway = Get it Together on Broadway.

Man, I know WAY too much about Motown. But, hey, it beats having to endure the crap "music" they put out now. --b. Touch 04:43, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Six degrees of Wikipedia

I noted your comments about six degrees of separation on the Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Fuck you and die page. Something like this does already exist at Wikipedia:Six degrees of Wikipedia. You may also be interested in category:Wikipedia games, which is how I discovered the six degress page. Thryduulf 12:20, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Revert

I wont alter your page, but you may want to remove the last paragraph of the 'Wiki whites' section, recently added by another user. At least I hope you do!

some anon is complaining about your userpage

Some anon user is complaining about the comment you made about white people on your user page. The discussion is here: Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance)#Systematic bias — J3ff 02:46, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Afro and dreadlocks

I forgot to tell you: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for fixing the pictures (and content) on those articles! --b. Touch 15:19, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rastafari

The Rastafarianism debate is definitely still open. What do you think? New blood could be very useful in breaking the deadlock. While the argument is dying down there is no consensus to leave the issue for 6 months; that was just one user's request. Basically my wanting to change the name arguments are (a) the name is insulting to Rastafarians,and (b) in the English world as a whole Rastafarianism is not the common usage term. Any insights you have would anyway be most welcome. --SqueakBox 20:13, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Will let you know about the Rastafarians. I didn't know you had said were in favour, but I do sometimes miss things first time round. I'm in Honduras but was in Guatemala first. I went there because of my passion for Spanish. I really wanted to become fluent, and have. I also wanted to experience living in a third world country, to find out what it was really like. I am doing that too. I was hooked from my first visit to Mexico 5 years ago. I have been with Beverly, who is a black Honduran woman, for the last 13 months, so I am very involved in the place now, which is why I didn't leave after being attacked (that and the dogs). With the computer I am very in touch with the UK, and only miss the countryside from there. If I could earn some money I could see myself living here for ever. I like the heat, too. So, I am not an activist, just a person living here the best I can from the money I have been lucky enough to make in the past. The violence is atrocious here, but it's mostly young men and boys killing each other, so I hope to avoid any trouble in the future. Coming to live in Honduras is the best thing I ever did, --SqueakBox 21:53, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Melanin

I've put it up for RfM since it doesnt seem to attract any third-party attention in RfC. Wareware 02:38, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)