Talk:Albania

Sources

Various authors have mentioned Albania and the Illyrians in their works, from late antiquity to the early Middle Ages, among them:

• Hecataeus of Miletus (c. 550 BC - c. 476 BC) [1];
• The inscription of Phoinike, mentioning one Ἀρβαῖος (3rd century –2nd century BC);
• The epitaph of Gornja Solnja (end of 1st century - beginning of 2nd century);
• Polybius (c. 208 - c. 125 BC) [2]; In his work The Histories, Polybius reported the first diplomatic contacts between the Romans and Illyrians.
• Claudius Ptolemy (c. 90 - 168), as reported in one of his key sources, the Greco-Phoenician cartographer Marinus of Tyre (1st century) [3]; Ptolemy is the earliest writer in whose works the name of the Albanians has been distinctly recognized. He mentions (3.13.23) a tribe called Albani (Ἀλβανοί) and a town Albanopolis (Ἀλβανόπολις), in the region lying to the East of the Ionian sea; and from the names of places with which Albanopolis is connected, it appears clearly to have been in the Southern part of the Illyrian territory, and in modern Albania.
• Annales Ragusini Anonymi [4]; an identification of Albania with Croatia Alba has been rejected [5]
• Stephanus of Byzantium (end of the 5th century - beginning of the 6th century) [6];
• Procopius of Caesarea (c. 500-565) [7];
• Catalogus Felicianus (first half of the 6th century) [8];
• Chronicle of Joan of Nikiu, in Coptic (end of the 6th century) [9];
• Constantine Porphyrogennetos (905 - 959);
• Suida (second half of the 10th century) [10];
• Anonymous Bulgarian on the Origin of Nations (beginning of the 11th century) [11];
• Generationum et Banorum apud Chroatos (end of the 11th century) [12];
• Michael Attaleiates (c. 1022-1080) [13];
• Anna Komnena (c. 1083-1153) [14];
• La Chanson de Roland (1085), mentioning Albeigne, - the coastal part of Albania etc. [15].

Orthographic projection

I noticed that Albania is one of the few countries that doesn't have an orthographic projection as the displayed image. I found the image on Wikipedia Commons here : https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Albania_(orthographic_projection).svg

I was wondering if it could be put in instead of the current image, just so it matches all the other country wikis. Thanks! Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 00:50, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 April 2023

78.70.177.120 (talk) 19:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Tollens (talk) 21:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Update to migration figures

Given there has been a lot of coverage of migration from Albania to other countries in Europe in recent months in international news media [16] [17] [18], so I've made an update. Lots more could be added, so I may ask for assistance at WP:COUNTRIES if necessary. Khirurg (talk) 22:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

"Proto-Greeks"

At, first it is an outdated theory, with mostly sources that don't pass 1990. The only source that these inhabitants spoke a Proto-Greek language (which is irrelevant anyway) is Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond. Studies: Further studies on various topics. A.M. Hakkert, 1993, p. 231. He says following:

The main reservoir of the Greek speakers was central Albania and Epirus

Really? Greek speakers? He doesn't mention any Proto- or Pre- prefixes.

Illyrians, whose main habitat was in the area now called Bosnia

That's incorrect. One of the most securely Illyrian tribes are the Ardiaei, which lived in Albania and Montenegro. Not to forget the Taulantii, etc. This shows that these sources are in fact outdated and can't be used for such a prominent article. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:17, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I could see a slim case for cutting proto as the sources just say Greek. They mean proto-Greek for this period of course when they say Greek, but that's what's written in the sources so I can see an argument to match them precisely. Straw man arguments about the location of individual tribes don't invalidate sources, especially when you're not providing any of your own and are just stating that the theory is outdatedGugrak (talk) 05:45, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

If an author can't locate a tribe that may be relevant to this hypothesis, there are grounds to dismiss the source. If you could provide a newer source, it will have weight in the article. If not, this will go to the ANI because, as you may know, this article is highly-viewed. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:57, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The author isn't discussing the location of specific tribes. There are three sources already. They're not even particularly old in the grand scheme of things. You are the one that needs to produce sources discussing an alternative here, not OR and WP:JDLI Gugrak (talk) 00:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gugrak: The section which you reverted is based on outdated theories based on the work of N. G. L. Hammond. The consensus is explained in detail in the relevant article (Proto-Greek language) where you can consult relevant bibliography. The relevant article doesn't claim that Proto-Greek first moved in the Balkans in BA Albania and Montenegro, hence this article will not claim something which not even the main article about the subject claims. In short, Proto-Greek likely moved southwards via Bulgaria towards Macedonia, later towards a part of Epirus and Thessaly from where it ultimately moved southwards to its position in the Mycenaean era. Hammond's view was that Proto-Greek moved southwards via the western Balkans and could be identified with tumuli in Montenegro and Albania. This theory never found much support even when Hammond was very active academically. Today, we even have aDNA studies about exact tumuli sites which Hammond mentioned and they're linked to Cetina culture and other similar cultures, but have no correspondence to BA Mycenaeans.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Bronze- and Iron- Age tumuli in northern and central Albania, down to Lofkënd and Dukat, in present-day scholarship are affiliated with the culture of the Indo-European people who were called 'Illyrians' by the ancients, for instance: Papadopoulos, John K. (2019). "Greek protohistories". World Archaeology. Routledge. doi:10.1080/00438243.2019.1568294. ISSN 1470-1375. "The modern meaning of protohistory can vary from the study of a culture just prior to its earliest recorded history, to a period that occupies a liminal space between prehistory and history. More often than not, the term is applied to peoples who did not record their own history. In excavating an Illyrian Late Bronze–Early Iron Age burial tumulus (ca. 1400–800 BC) at Lofkënd, in what is today Albania (Figure 2), my colleagues and I were confronted by the problem: there were no Illyrian/Albanian historians or authors in Archaic and Classical antiquity; indeed, what we know of the Illyrians, including the names of their many tribes, comes from Greek authors (Papadopoulos et al. 2014)." – Βατο (talk) 11:12, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

With regard to Hammond's outdated Mycenean migration hypothesis that has been included into the article, Onnis, Elisabetta (2008). Modalità di scambio tra il mondo miceneo e i territori dell'Albania e dell'Epiro". Vol. 9. p. 11. {{cite book}}: |journal= ignored (help): "Tale opera fu elaborata da N. G. L. Hammond in seguito alla sua attività di ricerca sul territorio e agli scavi fino ad allora portati avanti, realizzando un lavoro ancora oggi punto di partenza per lo studio delle più antiche relazioni con il mondo egeo. Se tale analisi particolareggiata risulta, pertanto, fondamentale, la teoria migrazionista relativa all’origine dei Micenei, elaborata considerando i rinvenimenti dei tumuli albanesi, trovò, al contrario, scarso seguito in campo archeologico e venne presto smentita". ["This work was elaborated by N. G. L. Hammond following his research activity on the territory and the excavations carried out until then, realizing a work that is still a starting point for the study of the most ancient relationships with the Aegean world. While such detailed analysis is therefore fundamental, the migration theory relating to the origin of the Mycenaeans, elaborated by considering the findings of the Albanian tumuli, found, on the contrary, little following in the archaeological field and was soon disproved."]. Today no scholar considers that Mycenean civilization was established by a population that migrated from Albania to Mycenae. Much archaeological and archaeogenetic research has been carried out in the last years, the article should be updated with present-day well-established academic assertions, replacing outdated 20th century speculations. – Βατο (talk) 11:44, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Pyrrhus

@Khirurg Here the drama starts again. Not only was Ancient Epirus located in todays' Albania, he was raised in Illyria, to be more exact: in the Taulantian kingdom. That. exactly. lies. in. Albania. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:53, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

You need to do some reading. Ancient Epirus was mostly located in Greece. Pyrrhus of Epirus has nothing whatsoever to do with Albania. There is a gap of some 23 centuries between the time of Pyrrhus and the creation of the Albanian state. Are you going to add Alexander the Great next? He conquered some of the territory of what is now Albania. Are you going to add every single notable person that spent part of their lives in what is now Albania? Khirurg (talk) 20:49, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Serbia has also got nothing to do with the Illyrians and the Vinca culture, it is still mentioned in the history section. I think you don't like the fact that Pyrrhus grew up in an Illyrian household. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:08, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make a right. "There is some irrelevant junk in the article, so why can't I add more irrelevant junk"? What kind of logic is that? Instead of trying to figure out what I like and don't like, how about you stop the crude nationalistic POV-pushing. Khirurg (talk) 21:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Some sections seem to have too many pics

@Iaof2017: maybe a few should be removed, what do you think? Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I removed a pic as it was part of a duo that caused an ugly break to the text and I corrected a few things in the Energy sector, but more work on citations and updates to old info on economy etc are needed. The other pics if anyone should be removed I leave it up to you @Iaof2017:. The article needs work but I do not have the time. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

@Khirurg: those pics do not represent any "POV". Read the article on the phone and look how those two pics look together. Even in the desktop version they do are not OK. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Removing the Greek language sign and only keeping the Macedonian language sign is definitely POV. It's the very definition of POV. Insisting it's not so does not make it less so. Khirurg (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

If the Greek language sign is a POV, which is the opposite POV? Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Who said the "Greek language sign is a POV"? Keeping one sign and removing the other is what is POV. How about you explain why you kept the Macedonian language sign but removed the Greek language sign, despite the fact that Macedonian is spoken by ~5000 people, but Greek spoken by over 20% of the country? Khirurg (talk) 17:24, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

And most of those 20% have very limited comptence of the language, similar with Italian. English on the other hand is well-understood and spoken by a majority of both Albanians and those who visit from abroad. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Selective use of images

In the past there was an agreement to have an image of a Greek language sign, and a Macedonian language sign [19]. As of today, it seems one user has decided to unilaterally end this agreement, and simply remove the Greek language sign and only keep the Macedonian language sign. The only reasoning given is that the Macedonian language sign is "more representative" [20], despite the fact that Greek is the second most-spoken language in the country. That makes no sense, and seems to be just an excuse to remove the Greek language sign. Khirurg (talk) 16:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

No wonder you accuse others of wanting to remove content just because it is related to Greeks. You have tried to add so much Greek-related stuff in UNDUE fashion to the Albania article, that you judge edits only as "add Greek stuff" and "remove Greek stuff". At one point in time the Demographics section talked about Greeks who are less than 2% of population more than it talked about all other groups combined, including Albanians themselves. Anyways, I am not here to discuss your assumptions and past behavior. The WP:SANDWICH issue is a real one, not my justification. Just look at how the section appeared on the phone before my edit. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

There ways to resolve image sandwiching, such as my latest edit. I don't see any sandwiching now. The real question is why your edit privileged one language over another, which you still haven't answered. Khirurg (talk) 17:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Your edit solved nothing. I explained it in one of the edit summaries, it seems you rushed to revert without reading it. Also, you have already made 3 reverts (readded the Goranxi pic 3 times). Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:39, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? It is your edit that causes sandwiching [21] (which doesn't seem to bother you as long as it does not involve the Greek language), and my version resolves it [22]. Anyway, since it seems to old tag-team is still very much active, I will seek outside intervention. No way you are getting away with just removing the Greek language sign and keeping only the Macedonian language sign. You have 3 reverts too btw. Khirurg (talk) 17:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Greek, Greeks and Greece is mentioned almost one tenth as much as Albania, Albanian and Albanians in an article about Albania. Greeks are definitely well represented in this article about Albania. other minorities are definetly not being "privilege". WP:SANDWICH is also an issue here. Durraz0 (talk) 17:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC)