Talk:Virginia Tech shooting

NOTE. The same reasons why speculation on the identity of the killer should not be included in the article also apply on this talk page. You may be blocked for inserting unsubstantiated accusations into this talk page.

Suicide tag

Who went back and put "suicide" back in the infobox? It has not been determined if the gunman killed himself. I'm removing the tag. - --Bdj95 21:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we can put it bacl the New York Times mentions it was self-inflicted. -- Vince 21:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

In the most recent press conference, the Virginia Tech police chief confirmed that the gunman committed suicide.Fickman 21:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. "Apparent suicide" sounds fine to me, since an official autopsy hasn't been completed yet. --Bdj95 21:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The news reports are saying that the gunman shot himself in the head (which, btw, is why they are havign trouble identifying him). As this is a current event, the current news should be used. As long as its cited by a reputable source (like a news website) it should be allowed up unless new information surfaces. KSL 23:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Where in India

Kaine was supposedly heading for India. Where specifically? -- Ishikawa Minoru 21:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The article mentions nothing of Kaine going to India. Please explain. Effer 21:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Governor Tim Kaine was in Japan. He is now on his way back so that he can attend the service tomorrow. --BigDT 21:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Campus leaders doing nothing

After "two people were killed and up to four others wounded" they don't even close down campus stop all classes and send everyone away? Classes were still in progress when the 2nd shooting occured, can someone confirm?

According to the press conference, the RA's immediately began a phone tree after the first incident to notify on-campus residences. The police and school officials closed the dorm building, but decided that the incident was probably isolated and that thousands of students were alreay in transit to the campus. The events of the first shooting were consolidated and broadcast in an email around 9:30 EDT, minutes before the second shooting occurred.Fickman 21:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Did they even stop classes, or classes went on as usual? Nothing too extreme happened only 2 dead 4 wounded. Did they send those who were on campus away/home? The article currently states classes were even in progress when the shooter found the students conveniently gathered in a class room.

First, please sign your posts. Second, please only add discussion items that contribute to the quality of the article. This isn't a place to discuss your thoughts, reviews, and reaction to the events. There are plenty of web sites with forums for you to accomplish that.Fickman 21:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Obviously we discuss this so as to determine if this should be mentioned in the article. The press conference was full of questions about the inaction and mistakes of campus police and leadership.

Sign your posts by adding four ~ at the end of your statements! Most of the questions regarding the decision to have classes today during the press conference came from one college journalist from another school in the area. Even if the decision to remain open was worthy of comment, the way these questions were worded show a clear bias that is unworthy of an encyclopedia. Consider eliminating phrases such was "don't even" and sarcasm such as "nothing too extreme happened. . . ". These are the types of comments I was referring to when I said you are discussing your reaction (outrage that the campus wasn't closed) and not contributing to the article.Fickman 22:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This was a huge screw-up. There's no other way to spin it. I see some resignations on the horizon, but by all means, wait and see. Nothing will protect them from the media frenzy that is sure to follow in the coming days. MoodyGroove 22:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Most recent press conference

Some interesting details:

• Police not confirming that the two shootings are related
  • Two dead from dormitory shooting: one male and one female
  • Suspect had chained several doors of classroom building from the inside
• Governor declared state of emergency
• Gunman committed suicide
• Those hurt jumping from windows are included in injury report. . . 15 injured reported (some earlier reports have not been subtracting individuals from the "injured" report when adding them to the "deceased" count)

Fickman 21:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistent injuries

27 lead, 15 infobox, 28 timeline. Suggest we give a range in all places.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Give a redirect!

Yah, you forgot a redirct. Put one on or I'll revert bot this. 165.95.24.12 21:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: thanks for the redirect

Statement to Use?

http://asherheimermann.wordpress.com/2007/04/16/virginia-tech-shooting/

Is this any good? LABand 21:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Blogs are generally not considered reliable sources. Therefore, the website should not be used as a source in this article. Nishkid64 21:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

first victim name released

http://www.wrdw.com/news/headlines/7050467.html

Local Student Among Dead at Va Tech 4:30 PM Apr 16, 2007

Ryan Clark of Martinez is one of the 31 victims of Monday’s shootings at Virginia Tech, according to Columbia County Coroner Vernon Collins.

Clark is believed to have been shot in the first string of shootings that occurred in a dormitory.

Clark is the son of Stan and Lettie Clark of Old Petersburg Road. He has a twin brother.

An autopsy will be performed, but because of the high number of victims, it may take days to complete.

--Jake7457 21:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I don't think any good can come from merging it. Any objections to just removing the tag? --BigDT 21:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Include a short summary in the VT article, but there's no way that the two should be merged. It doesn't make sense. --Bdj95 21:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

?

What happened to this page? (→Netscott) 21:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Friendly neighborhood oversight here. Somebody posted a real name and phone number claiming that said person was the shooter. It then stayed unremoved for 60 revisions. Mackensen (talk) 21:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• I was just coming to that conclusion... thanks for the explanation Mackensen. (→Netscott) 21:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Deadliest “civilian” shooting?

Mackensen, can you please explain why you just removed my edit and the entire discussion about why some of us feel the statement “deadliest civilian shooting in U.S. history” is hyperbolic and inaccurate?

There have definitely been worse "civilian" shootings before (arguably to the point of genocide) in this country--just think the Wounded Knee Massacre or the Sand Creek Massacre. No way is this the "deadliest civilian" shooting...I merely changed it to "deadliest school shooting rampage in U.S. history." I was sure someone would change it back again, but I don’t see a good explanation here about why we’re insisting on this subjective statement. Efrafra 21:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Is "rampage" really necessary?Chunky Rice 21:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, both of those were carried about by the military, not civilians.Chunky Rice 21:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not necessary; but it's more descriptive and does imply large numbers whereas "deadliest" just means that someone died. But the "civilian" detail has already been edited (my main objection), so I'm satisfied. You make a good point about the massacres I cited, but I was assuming "civilian" refers to the victims rather than the perpetrator. Efrafra 22:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Mackensen was oversighting material that provided the name of the shooter. Nishkid64 21:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that info was in the deleted conversation, though. Efrafra 22:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Title Consistency

There has been much debate on the use of "2007" and "Massacre" in the title, but what about at least using a capital "S" in the title. i.e. Virginia Tech Shootings as opposed to the current Virginia Tech shootings. Whether or not there was a prior shooting on the campus last year, this is clearly going to be known as the definitive Virginia Tech Shooting forever. I believe it is a large enough story to warrant the capital "S". Bluefield 21:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.97.117.154 (talk) 21:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

It's "shootings" instead of "Shootings" based on the Manual of Style for Wikipedia editing. That is Wikipedia policy and must be adhered to. Nishkid64 21:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Very weird formatting error

Why is the comma (shown between the "<here>" notations) not showing as a comma in the article?:

"|caption=[[Virginia Tech campus|Norris Hall]] |location=[[Blacksburg, Virginia|Blacksburg]]<here>,</here> [[Virginia]], [[United States]]"

John Stattic 21:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflicting Reports (Before 2nd Shooting)

I tried to post something up, but it didn't work. First, I want to say that the weapons the gunman used should be removed. Wikipedia is not a site that is supposed to report suspicion, and until things are confirmed, we can not put things based on rumor. Therefore, the guns the shooter used should be removed. Secondly, I have found articles stating that after the first shooting, the University confirmed that police had arrested a suspect. Any other confirmation on this? Any news on this? Did anyone else find this odd in their research? I think this is article is going to be more like a news channel than an encyclopedia article until we get more news. I propose removing the weapons until we have confirmation. WiiAlbanyGirl 21:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

TWO SHOOTINGS, holy hell... I didn't hear that Zarathrustra 22:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Shooting caught on cellphone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HNrBd4kKMg unimatrix 21:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's also on CNN.com. I would refrain from posting it on the actual article because I am not sure if CNN has claims to this video. WiiAlbanyGirl 21:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

How would they have claims to it? The student has full copyright who shot it.

I think the person who took the video has given all rights of the video to CNN to release into public demand, but I may be wrong. Effer 22:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe YouTube links are forbidden in articles. If there's a CNN link to the video, you could add it to "External Links". Nishkid64 22:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Deadliest School Massacres/Shootings Worldwide

In the interest of making the article better, shouldn't we rank this massacre/shooting (whichever the consensus goes with) not just against other incidents in the US, but also worldwide? Is this the deadliest school shooting/massacre worldwide or just in the US? Where does it rank worldwide? Ikilled007 22:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's not the deadliest school massacre worldwide (Bath school bombing and Beslan were worse). I don't know of its rank internationally, but it's probably pretty high up. If someone can find sources, then a section tying this shooting to other international school shootings would be appropriate. Nishkid64 22:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected

I have semi-protected this page because anons and new users keep adding a name which may or may not be that of the shooter. Until an actual news source (no, not FARK) has confirmed this posting the name is libelous and the revisions that contain it will be deleted. Please revert any such addition as soon as you see it and let me or someone else listed at WP:OVERSIGHT#Users with Oversight permissions know at once. Thanks, Mackensen (talk) 21:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Alberto Gonzales testimony

Do we really need to include that this was delayed? It doesn't really add anything to the article.Chunky Rice 22:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This can be removed. It has no real relevance to the subject. Nishkid64 22:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. If we listed everything that was delayed when this story broke, this article would go on forever. Ikilled007 22:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. If it's relevant that the legislators observed a moment of silence, it is certainly relevant that they postponed the widely-anticipated testimony of the Attorney General regarding potential perjury under oath in a hearing after which he may be forced to resign in disgrace. But if that's not relevant, neither is the White House "reportedly monitoring the story".Ribonucleic 22:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Until the article becomes a lot longer than it is, I see no non-political reason for removing a single sentence concerning how the event led to the postponement of a widely-anticipated political hearing in which the fate of a top Administration official hangs in the balance. However, if you are determined to delete that sentence on the basis of relevance, I am going to delete all the other politician responses as well. Ribonucleic 22:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

How many injured??

CNN and other channels are speaking firstly about 29 injured and there was EVEN a hospital speaker said they brought 17 victims to their hospital and 12 people to other hospitals (2 of them seriously wounded). But than again, they are now speaking of 15 injured at the second scene and 4 injured in the first incident. It is also possible that some of the injured died during the reports. So how many injured are there now, does anyone know that?? ColdCase 22:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we do. The numbers for injuries seem to be all over the map. I've been removing statements that there are 29 confirmed injured, since that doesn't appear to be the case, as far as I can tell. I don't want to run into 3RR, though. Is this okay?Chunky Rice 22:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You haven't removed it from the info box ;) But I think that's fine how it is... the info box statement has a source given for the numbers 15 and 29 and shows that there is still confusion about that! 15 are given for the northern building, 4 are given for the southern building, so it should be 19 anyway... but you see... confusing... it's somewhere between 15 and 29... just leave the info box as it is and I think we can live with the rest ;) ColdCase 22:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

List of shooting victims

Found a myspace VT link with a list of many victims names. Can I assume it would be incredibly irresponsible to put the link, even though it seems very sincere? --Elg26 22:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you can assume that. Moncrief 22:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Fails our external link and soruceing guidelines so yes.Geni 22:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a good idea to put myspace on Wikipedia. The list shouldn't be copy-pasted either, because Wikipedia is not a memorial. // Sean William (PTO) 22:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That is what I thought. Just checking since new. Thanks --Elg26 22:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

World Reactions?

Why was this section I just added deleted? I had a quote from a prominent Canadian MP?--RobNS 22:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

For one thing, you stuck it as the headline for all the other reactions from U.S. & state sources. For another, this was one quote from one political leader from another nation, which hardly amounts to being "world reaction": it's the reaction of one person from one nation. Nor do I think it wise to start a laundry list of such statements. But perhaps later, after an article in the media provides a summary about world reaction, it might be more relevant to have such a subsection under the general section "Reaction." --Yksin 22:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You are quite correct Yksin, I guess I was jumping the gun. Best wishes on this sombre day.--RobNS 22:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Support change to "massacre"

• I am in favor only if "shooting" is changed to "massacre". Starks 18:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
  
• Support- I believe it would be useful for such a horrible incident. Massacre should be used per Starks. Funpika 18:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - I am in favor too. This is a massacre. Lg1223 18:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - This is the worst school massacre in US history, the most wounded and dead ever in one incident; therefore, based on the facts it qualifies a massacre. EnviroGranny 18:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - call it what it really is. Betaeleven 19:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Yes on "massacre" [to parallel Columbine High School massacre], no on date. The 2006 incident wasn't a massacre (2 dead) and didn't happen on campus. As for the date, look at it this way: If people still remember this 20, 25, 30 years from now, they probably won't remember what year it was. If this were a print encyclopedia, they wouldn't look under "2007," just like they wouldn't look for Columbine under "1999." --zenohockey 19:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - WP calls it a massacre on the front page, as does CNN. Cleduc 20:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - per others. Good friend100 22:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - per the fact that nearly every other language Wiki covering this is using the word "Massacre". (→Netscott) 22:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Moncrief 22:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - My definition of massacre is at least 10 dead. Smaller incidents are referred to as massacre. This is unquestionably one as well, and no amount of administrative micromanagement can change that. --Kitch ^{(Talk : Contrib)} 22:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support per media calling it a massacre. Effer 22:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• I support changing the name to massacre too. Babalooo 22:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Voting is Evil

• Golbez 18:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Nil Einne 18:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC) Also, we should wait a few days until things die down IMHO
• I agree with Golbez. I dont think it should be a vote however a discussion. Please see above proposal to iunclude 2007 due to there also being a 2006 shooting covered here. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Massacre is a POV title if we call the incident that ourselves. If the majority of media outlets in English (and eventually, any books or other significant writing on the subject) begin calling it a "massacre", then it would be an appropriate title for the article. Wikipedia does not exist to pass moral judgements on whether or not something is a "horrible incident", it exists to catalog information from other sources. A Train^talk 18:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Propagandistic slogans are evil

But it is too soon to poll on this... let's have discussion first and then if necessary go the polling route. (→Netscott) 18:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

If you're going to put 2007, why not add the date as well in the title. There is no need for it, it's senseless and a waste of space. People will understand what it is, being this is on the Wiki front page. Ruhe1986 18:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Wait at least one day before you name an event Goadshatesmyspace

Move to "Virgina Tech massacre"?

I just think it sounds much more appropriate and respectful, so what do you guys think? Effer 21:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Not NPOV until it becomes generally called that. - O^O 21:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

How is "massacre" more respectful than "shootings"? If anything, it sounds more inflammatory to me. --  timc  talk   21:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Columbine and Luby's are called massacres with a lot less death. Fox News and CNN are already calling it a massacre in their graphics. James 21:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If nothing more than for consistency's sake it should be renamed. Unless this has some sort of terroristic root this is almost assuredly going to become known as a massacre. (→Netscott) 21:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

shootings is euphemistic and POV --TheFEARgod (Ч) 21:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

But the media is already calling it a massacre. Effer 21:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Patience, people! It's a shooting as of now, and let's keep it that way until the full details of the situation unravel. We can consider whether or not "massacre" is appropriate, then. Nishkid64 21:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

See http://www.cnn.com/ (→Netscott) 21:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I like the current title. The media is using "massacre" for ratings purposes. Wikipedia should not go there. Shooting is sufficient. --Bdj95 22:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

And now CNN's back to "shooting", I guess everyone feeds off of everyone else. :-) (→Netscott) 22:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Massacre

Nobody finds it odd that the corresponding articles in Czech, Danish, Spanish, French, Finnish, Portuguese and Swedish all have the word "massacre" in their titles? Óðinn 21:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, that's what it is... (→Netscott) 21:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, CNN is now headlining the story as a massacre, its silly that its still being described as a shooting here.

Can some administrator please hurry up and make this move? The redirect page prevents "regular" editors from doing it. Italiavivi 21:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This is being discussed above. Effer 21:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Funny English Wikipedia usually isn't the "follower" see: cs:Masakr na Virginia Tech, da:Massakren på Virginia Tech, es:Masacre de Virginia Tech, fr:Tuerie à l'université de Virginia Tech (Tuerie = Massacre), pt:Massacre de Virginia Tech. (→Netscott) 21:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"Discussed above" nothing, reliable sources and Wikipedia's Main Page both refer to this as a massacre. This is a massacre, correct the title. Italiavivi 21:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I still advise against doing this at the current time. Let things settle out in the next few days before making any final name changes. Nishkid64 21:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well duh, the main page is calling it a massacre? I love when the right hand doesn't talk to the left hand. :-) (→Netscott) 21:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not something that needs moved at this time, could confuse new editors and such, also not all news sources are describing it as a massacre (BBC at the moment still calling this a shooting). -- Nick ^t 21:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It is most definitely something that needs to be moved at this time, per Wikipedia's Main Page and available reliable sources. Italiavivi 22:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As per Wikipedia custom, British language norms apply to British topics and American norms apply to American topics. (→Netscott) 22:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why we can't move the page as Wikipedia's own main page states it as a massacre? 22:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed to keep it at 'shootings' until common use of 'massacre' is confirmed by at least a few days of media reports. Names of events take a bit of time to settle. Until then, we should have a descriptive and non-loaded title (it is not our place to call this a massacre - let common usage dictate that to us). That said, this is really a horrible day and my thoughts are with the family of the slain. --mav 22:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with mav Zarathrustra 22:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Realize that the Main Page headline was changed to reflect "massacre" by another Wikipedia admin. When I originally added the entry, I left it as "shooting". I am now changing it back to "shooting". Nishkid64 22:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

I've put in a formal move request for this article, to Virginia Tech massacre. A section with this title is requested by the move template. Again, it is referred to as "massacre" on Wikipedia's Main Page as well as foreign language Wikipedias, not to mention available reliable sources. There is no merit to calling this "shootings" over "massacre" whatsoever. Italiavivi 22:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the requested move. No definitive name has been acheived in the media (about a million things this has been called), therefore, no need to move. Wait until the media's consensus is discovered, then change title. Mahalo. --Ali'i 22:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC) Add: Also, what WP calls it on the main page, nor what foreign language WPs call it has any bearing on the correct title. Google News results show both have plenty of useage [1], [2].

You disagree with the sources. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. All five of America's major news outlets, there. Italiavivi 22:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There are many others (including the same ones that you list here) that refer to it as "shootings". Take this for instance. We can find thousands of sources to show either name. Neither is the "most common name" yet. --Ali'i 22:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's my opinion that it would better to call it a "mass shooting" or something of that sort than just massacre or just shooting. The Title should convey that the deaths were caused by shooting, and massacre is non-specific. However, just calling it a shooting without some adjective or description of the numbers doesn't capture the scope. The title should capture both the scope of the death and the method of the death, in my opinion. Nevertheless, I think this is a very unimportant issue overall. Ikilled007 22:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Massacre is a POV title if we call the incident that ourselves. If the majority of media outlets in English (and eventually, any books or other significant writing on the subject) begin calling it a "massacre", then it would be an appropriate title for the article. Wikipedia does not exist to pass moral judgements, it exists to catalog information from other sources. A Train^talk 22:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[8] [9] [10] [11] [12] Italiavivi 22:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree - wait for the media to form a consensus. We don't need to jump the gun. --mav 22:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[13] [14] [15] [16] [17] Italiavivi 22:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm seeing "rampage", not "massacre" at half of those links that you've put up Italiavivi. Wikipedia is not a race. If the media wants to call it a massacre to sell newspapers and get ratings, that's fine. "Shootings" is a neutral title and the article should stay there until there is a consensus on what this event will be called. That consensus may not even be clear for months, so what's your rush? I don't see what we gain from moving the article to that title right now. A Train^talk 22:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the best Title? "Mass Shooting"? Ikilled007 22:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The "best" (most accurate, consistent, and reliably sourced) title is Virginia Tech massacre. Italiavivi 22:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

My opinion: Leave as is for now, wait for the media to form a concensus on a name for the event. It's easy enough to move/rename that we can afford to wait. I'm not swayed by arguments about what other-language Wikipedias are doing: they are not the media. --Yksin 22:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"Massacre" is unfortunately the best term for what happened. Shooting doesn't adequately describe what transpired. Bluefield 22:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Why are all of you so concerned about something so trivial? It was a [mass] shooting. Just leave it as it is. --anon

Massacres can be accomplished through a variety of means. A shooting is a mass killing using guns. Thus your assertion is false (even though this almost certainly will be called a massacre, it is too early for us to make that leap). --mav 22:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There's simply no hurry on renaming this article, the current title is accurate and we can pick a new one in a few days when the media has definitely reached some consensus as to what to call this. --Xyzzyplugh 22:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"Massacre" is I feel a bit too lip-smacking, tawdry and sensationalist and as someone says above it was a shooting isnt "Massacre" POV?Stevenscollege 22:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

So you'll be headed over to Columbine's article to change it ASAP, then? Shame on CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, ABC News, and CBS for being "lip-smacking," "tawdry," and "sensationalist." Italiavivi 22:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I would disagree with the usage of "massacre" for the Columbine article. However, I understand that the title takes on "massacre" because that is how it is predominantly referred to. I'm requesting that people wait before jumping the gun and asking for a page move. I've changed the In The News headline back to "campus shooting" from "school massacre". Nishkid64 23:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Something's deathly wrong with this page

Somewhere in all of this the entirety of the page was copied over so it all appears twice, except for new comments. How to sort it all out? --Yksin 22:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I've attempted to fix this. Unfotunately this talk page is moving fast and so there may be some folks who need to reestablish some of their commentary. (→Netscott) 22:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Netscott. I was growing horribly confused. I've got one to reestablish one comment for myself -- this will be my third time putting it in! --Yksin 22:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You know what's wrong with this page? People complaining about its title and that it isn't accurate enough. It's sick some of the discussions going on in here. 32 people had their lives taken away. Some here are letting go of that and bickering over trivial things in life, such as the title of this page.---350z33

Well, this is the talk page for the article itself. The discussion on here is supposed to be about things such as the title of the page. Zeppelin462 22:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Current Event??

Actually, this article is NOT documenting a current event but a past event! On the other hand, information is still changing quickly. I think the current template isn't correct. Any idea how we can change that? I suggested {{ currentevent | article is about a past incident that is still under investigation. That is why it}} but it was removed again a few minutes later by another user. That's ok with me as long as we find some solution. It simply isn't a current event! ColdCase 22:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Not so, the event isnt merely the shootings but the consequences and this is very current!

You, forgot to sign ;) Hugh, so the article is actually about the investigation as well!? Ah... anyhow... if everyone is fine with that template, who cares... I just thought... "current? what?" but anyway... ColdCase 22:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Day of Silence

Does anyone know if there is a planned day of silence soon to honor those who died?

not that i know of, but i don't think that is of great importance right now (in refrence to the article, i think that a day/hour/something of silence is definatly needed and important, just not in the article).

peace out-Threewaysround 23:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

ps. you forgot to sign

Why is this talk page protected?

Why is this talk page sprotected? Zyxwvutsrqp 22:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Anons have been chronically adding the name of someone who is supposedly the shooter while there's no reliable reports about such a thing. (→Netscott) 23:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

But why is the talk page sprotected? Atleast there should be a subpage where anons and recent accounts can write something. Zyxwvutsrqp 23:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Univeristy shootings

Can someone place some stats comparing this shooting to other shootings at universities? Zyxwvutsrqp 23:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)