Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff/Workshop

This is a page for working on arbitration decisions. The arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only arbitrators may edit, for voting.

Motions and requests by the parties

Recusal request

1) Per the statement here, it appears Fred Bauder has already made a determination on my behavior before seeing any evidence. I request Bauder's recusal on this case based on his statement as I do not believe he will be able to examine this case properly.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Let's all recuse. Could simplify matters. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

So Fred has a view before this case opens? Actually I doubt any arb doesn't. Convince him he's wrong.--Doc^g 20:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

If every arbitrator who'd made an utterance on this case was recused we wouldn't have any arbitrators left. Mackensen (talk) 18:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with an "utterance." Plenty of utterances have occurred that I'm not concerning myself with. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This seems silly - that's hardly a predjudicial statement. Phil Sandifer 22:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This workshop to be blanked until the parties have had a chance to present their evidence

2) As a practical expedient to ensure that this workshop page remains useful, it is to be replaced with a blank template and protected until the parties have had the opportunity to add their evidence to the evidence page.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I'm not aware of any precedent for this sort of thing; and, frankly, I don't see the point. Certainly the principles of the case can be discussed without a need to refer to evidence. Kirill Lokshin 22:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Disagree. I've presented my evidence, and I've presented my commentary around it, I simply put it all togther when I had the time. No one's saying the arbs have to comment on it right this second. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This page is a bit of a mess already, and most of the comment does not relate to any evidence presented. It may help to wait a few days for the evidence to be presented. Then the evidence can be discussed here with a view to arriving at proposals for the arbitration committee to consider, based solidly in evidence. --Tony Sidaway 22:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I support that, we should reconvene in a week or so. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the examples in which there is say a proposed remedy and no supporting diffs, etc. The rest can stay.--MONGO 22:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Template

3)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed temporary injunctions

Badlydrawnjeff banned from deletion discussions

1) Badlydrawnjeff is, for the duration of this case, banned from deletion discussions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Nah. If he needs to be hung (which I am utterly neutral on at this point), this would be the right time for the rope to be available. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I have never once been disruptive during a deletion discussion. This is not at all supported by any evidence, contrary to Phil's diffs. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Too harsh. However, Jeff's habit of injecting himself into every deletion dispute is problematic. But at most I'd support asking him to step back a bit, and not to open DRVs as kneejerk. The problem is that Jeff is now playing a role - making it his personal mission to crusade on this. That's not good for him, and certainly not good for the project. If a deletion needs challenging, someone will do it - it doesn't always need the white/?black knight. Jeff, step back a bit, cool off, and go write some articles. (Advice I should heed too)--Doc^g 20:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I have an opinion, and I say it. I'd love to write some articles, but... --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's go ahead and make it crystal clear that BDJ's inclusionist madness is in no way hindering him from being an effective and valuable article writer. He's got two featured under his belt already, which is approximately two more than several of the people mixed up in this. Saying that he needs to "step back and write some articles" is deceitful. Milto LOL pia 20:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Please assume good faith - I'm not being 'deceitful'. I'm well aware of Jeff's article prowess, and have congratulated him on it before. He's an asset to the project in that regard. I just wish he'd spend more of his time doing it.--Doc^g 20:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by me. Jeff is a tremendously disruptive presence on deletion discussions, as can be seen with his comment spamming [1] and incivility [2] [3]. More to the point, Jeff does not recognize the fundamental fact that BLP is a policy about ethics. In doing so, he necessarily disregards the heart of the policy. That he does so loudly and disruptively is inexcusable and needs to stop immediately. Phil Sandifer 19:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Or Jeff holds an opposition view and you wish to silence him. That is how it can appear - I have not looked through all his comments but I think that removing him from discussions will bias the proceedings. violet/riga (t) 19:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeff's fanaticism causes him to be disruptive to reasonable discussion on issues like this. This problem has been ongoing for quite some time. Friday (talk) 19:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. It's no secret that I have been frustrated with this user too from time to time, not least when he's challenged my own closures and deletions, and I'm sure that his conduct is going to be a major focus of this case (hence the name). The proposed provisional remedy, however, is overbroad and excessive. It would also be counterproductive: quite apart from this arbitration case, this is a critical time for the community in refining consensus on application of BLP and related issues through a whole series of discussions on policy pages and in relevant deletion debates, and it would be a poor time indeed to jeopardize the perceived legitimacy of whatever policies or consensus may evolve by silencing one of the key players in the debates. Newyorkbrad 19:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be unwise to lock out a user who has been a major force of sanity checking in recent discussions. At a glance I was able to find at least three articles which would probably have been deleted if not for his participation in the discussion: [4], [5], [6]. One can only speculate how many dodgy AFDs or speedy deletions will happen in the next 2-4 weeks. One less person willing to say "you're joking, right?" could only lead to worse results. — CharlotteWebb 20:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Violetriga added to case

2) User:Violetriga is added to the case as a party to look at her overturning of deletions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This seems unnecessary; we don't normally use such things (as Thatcher highlights, below), but just take it as read were an editor's actions to be referenced in evidence/workshop. James F. (talk) 22:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Given that Violetriga is clearly aware of the proceeding and is participating in the discussion, an explicit addition probably isn't necessary. Kirill Lokshin 22:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Deletions of articles about dead people; deletions based on notability; deletions of referenced articles; deletions with the inadequate summary "eak, no WP:BLP". I reversed some of Doc glasgow's deletions based on all of these. Several of these articles are now at AfD and going through a sensible process - at least one is heading to a "merge" decision clearly showing that numerous people see the worth of some of these articles. This issue of wheel-warring is down to interpretation of Wikipedia:Wheel war which implies repetition and not just one action. violet/riga (t) 19:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You reversed six of my BLP deletions. Which you can only have identified by going through my logs. You did it without any discussion (despite the fact I was on-line). And with a clear conflict of interests, since two of the offending articles you created (as you later admitted). Many of the things you undeleted have since been re-deleted by other admins or shortly will be. One you have even refused to defend yourself, you undeleted it only for 'process reasons'. (Hey, an out of process undeletion to enforce process - that's great). I can supply diffs if required.--Doc^g 20:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I created one article and significantly rewrote the other. Two articles have since been deleted (now that is a wheel-war) and the others are heading to a merge, which is significantly different to deletion. I have provided evidence on the appropriate page.

I feel that you deleted articles without acceptable justification. I strongly believe in 1RR and by undoing your action (acceptable as per the wheel war policy page) and restoring the status quo we could then engage in discussion. You refused to engage in any discussion of these articles. violet/riga (t) 21:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Your reading of that page is not supported by a previous arbcom finding. A finding of which you are well aware.--Doc^g 21:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

That arbcom finding did not change the official policy which still reads that one undo is acceptable. violet/riga (t) 21:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by me, as this is a related matter. Violetriga overturned a number of User:Doc glasgow's deletions of BLP-concern articles without any discussion with him. [7] This is, obviously, a huge problem. I have notified Violetriga of this motion on her talk page. Phil Sandifer 19:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Note also that VIoletriga undeleted articles that she had previously created without first discussing with the deleting admin. [8]. This is a serious issue of wheel warring, and is germaine to this RFAr. Phil Sandifer 19:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sensible choice if arbitrators are going to investigate wheel-warring. Mackensen (talk) 19:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Violetriga, you were a party to Pedophile Userbox wheel war case, and at one point sanctions were considered, but dropped [9]. Did you ignore that case or forget? Mackensen (talk) 19:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Just what I was about to link here - David Gerard 19:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

My actions were common sense and were very appropriate given the situation. I am happy with the end result there and it was a massive and important step that this project had to undertake. violet/riga (t) 20:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad that you're happy with the end result but when we talked earlier you endorsed a view of wheel-warring completely contrary to the decision the Arbitration Committee arrived at. My question stands. Mackensen (talk) 20:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Current policy as per the policy page shows that one undo is acceptable. violet/riga (t) 20:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Then the whimsical deletions will be looked at as well? Or will Doc g get a pass for being the first to strike? Milto LOL pia 20:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I see no basis for the word "whimsical" as applied to Doc's deletions. On the conservative side and sometimes worth discussing, possibly. "Whimsical," no. Newyorkbrad 20:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Are we talking about the same deletions? I'm talking about the speedy "per blp" ones that violet undid. Doesn't exactly give a lot of detail... was there a discussion he didn't link to? Milto LOL pia 20:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The implication being that an administrator has no judgement save what he's told? Mackensen (talk) 20:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't want them speedily condemned either. I'm just wondering whether it/they will be examined. Critically, I mean, as in with the idea that maybe possibly there is a chance that they weren't a good idea. Perhaps I'm asking for too much. Milto LOL pia 20:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You're not asking for anything unreasonable; it's the specific word "whimsical," meaning resulting from whim or whimsy rather than from more substantial motivations, that I am suggesting be dropped. Newyorkbrad 21:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

There are two issues the arbitrators might want to consider; whether Doc inappropriately deleted articles and whether Violet wheel-warred by restoring a bunch of Doc's deletions without discussing it with him or going through proper channels. Either or both could be true and one is not dependent on the other (i.e. Violet could be sanctioned for wheel warring even if the committee also rules against Doc's deletions.) At this point the evidence page has not kept up with the workshop. Thatcher131 20:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that this is a motion to add Violet to the case. Evidence seems premature until this motion is taken up. Phil Sandifer 21:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, parties are almost never added by motions. In quieter cases, editors add evidence and make proposals, and if it looks like someone not orginally named is likely to be looked at seriously by the arbitrators, either an arbitrator or clerk will formally notify the editor. In most cases, the arbitrators go where the evidence takes them. I would normally suggest that if Doc or Mackensen wanted to add evidence of violetriga wheel-warring, he should go ahead and do so, and let the arbitrators decide whether or not to include him in the proposed decision. Thatcher131 21:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Moratorium on DRVs of BLPs

3) Due to the high amount of controversy surrounding this and the widespread disagreement as to what the policy actually says, articles deleted for reasons related to our policy on biographies of living people are not to be listed for deletion review until the conclusion of this case. Any administrators making BLP-related deletions should log them at create an appropriate page for this so that they can be reviewed after the case is resolved. Administrators are warned not to use this latitude to make deletions that violate or push the limits of policy and good practice.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Only if a moratorium of the speedy deletion of BLPs that do not fall under CSD G10 is instituted. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. It does Wikipedia no harm to not have an article for a few weeks, and it can do considerable harm to have a bad one. Phil Sandifer 19:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It does great harm to our coverage and the concept behind what we do here. Removing an appeals process because you don't like the fact that people disagree with you is absurd. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by me. This is getting to be a mess. Losing a bunch of articles for a month or so while we sort out the mess isn't going to harm anybody, and is something we can easily recover from after a cooling down period and some clarifications of the basic issues. Phil Sandifer 19:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Not sure about the bulk of this, but logging BLP-related deletions for review (by default) would be a step in the right direction, as these are more likely to be controversial than any other admin action, and as Jeff says, they do directly affect the quality of the encyclopedia. The big challenge would be getting random admins to follow that procedure. — CharlotteWebb 19:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Template

1)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

3)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

4)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed final decision

Proposed principles

Disputes

1) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably in their dealings with other users and to observe the principles of assuming good faith, civility, and the writers' rules of engagement. If disputes arise, users are expected to use dispute resolution procedures instead of making personal attacks.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. See evidence section.--badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Yes, but this applies to everyone. Newyorkbrad 19:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Interpersonal communication

2) Insulting, intimidating, or acting in a condescending manner toward other users harms the community by creating a hostile environment. All users are instructed to refrain from this activity. Admins are instructed to use good judgement while enforcing this policy.

Comment by Arbitrators:

No. WP:RPA is an essay, not a guideline, and as it turns out, removing personal attacks on sight tends to escalate rather than reduce hostilities. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC) NPA stuff stricken, so comment too. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. See evidence section. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Note, I removed the RPA section. I didn't mean for that to be included here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Civility enforcement is effectively a dead letter and rarely stands by itself. I welcome the sentiment though. Mackensen (talk) 19:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but should stay without that RPA stuff. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

How to handle disputes

3) The Wiki software and Wikipedia policy anticipates that disputes may arise regarding the wording and content of Wikipedia articles. When disputes arise editors are expected to engage in research, discussion with other users, and make reasonable compromises regarding the wording and content of Wikipedia articles.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Based on long-standing principles. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Consensus

4) As put forward in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through the use of polite discussion, in an attempt to develop a consensus regarding proper application of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines such as Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Surveys and the Request for comment process are designed to assist consensus-building when normal talk page communication has not worked.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Self-explanatory. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

True, but see proposal "Sensitive matters" below. Phil Sandifer 19:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons

5) Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons specifically refers to the removal of negative material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Rachel_Marsden#Biographies_of_living_persons_2.)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Really speaks to the crux of this discussion. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

There is nothing to say to this other than that Wikipedia:Biographies of living people is a very, very different guideline from the one that Jeff describes here. Among its statements that flatly contradict this reductive reading: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion." "In borderline cases, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. When writing about a person who is only notable for one or two events, including every detail, no matter how well-sourced, can lead to problems. In the best case, this can simply lead to an unencyclopedic article. In the worst case, this can be a serious violation of our policies on neutrality. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic." Phil Sandifer 19:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

At no point does anything you've posted here related to the topic at hand. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

And our policy on undue weight does not apply to BLPs? Moreschi ^Talk 19:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course it does. There's a minority rumbling about a new way of interpreting how, though. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion review

6) Wikipedia:Deletion review is the proper forum to review the decision to keep or delete material via policy or consensus.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Evidence suggests that many administrators, former admins, and arbiters believe that DRV is not the proper forum for some deletions. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "proper" but until we come up with something better it must suffice. — CharlotteWebb 20:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Early closures

7) Early closures of discussions are harmful. (per [[10]])

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per linked ArbCom principle. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Oppose; overstated and oversimplified. The paraphrase above exaggerates and oversimplies the quoted principle from the Brandt case. There are certainly circumstances in which early closure of an XfD or DRV discussion is completely appropriate. Incidentally, that includes early closures in favor of keep as well as delete results. Newyorkbrad 19:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oversimply. Check DRV today (Wayne Crookes): stub recreated, DRV closed early, history gone, everyone's happy. No harm done. Moreschi ^Talk 19:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

That was the title of the principle; you'll note the wording is more complicated. You're free to assert that if you like but don't point the finger at the committee. Mackensen (talk) 19:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think early closures are harmful, even those "based on WP:SNOW" as claimed in the committee's previous decision. The Daniel Brandt situation was not WP:SNOW at all, it was two significant and otherwise reasonable groups of people disagreeing with each other as to the best result, with each even disagreeing within itself as to the best way to achieve that result. Obviously WP:SNOW should not be applied to discussions that you and everybody else know are going to be controversial. However, WP:SNOW can be helpful when used properly. I know Jeff will disagree with me on this, but please... not here, not now. Change it to "early closure of heated discussions" and you might gain some traction here, Jeff. — CharlotteWebb 21:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Early closures (2)

7.1) Early closures of heated and/or controversial discussions are harmful. (per [[11]])

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per suggestion above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Inclusion and exclusion

8) Differing views on inclusion/exclusion exist on this project, and deserve mutual respect, even in disagreement.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I really don't want to do anything to make the concepts of "inclusion/exclusion" anything remotely resembling part of Wikipedia policy, even in the form of acknowledging the existence of the concept. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Much of this could have been avoided with this simple principle in mind. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, but also irrelevant. I'm somewhere in between. And Arbiters with a knowledge of the parties will know that some of our most inclusionist and deletionist admins are in total agreement here on the fundamental importance of protecting living people. This is NOT an inclusionist vs deletionist squabble.--Doc^g 19:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it has its roots in it. See the initial statements. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

As I say, the fact that Tony Sidaway, and Phil Sandifer, both of whom are generally caricatured as 'inclusionists' are against you here, speaks of this not being related to that rather tedious and unhelpful distinction.--Doc^g 21:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Speedy deletion

9) Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion is the document that governs the deletion of material without discussion, and is expected to generally be followed as written except in extraordinary situations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per discussion at WT:CSD, per long-standing practice, per the amount of improper speedies that are overturned, and per the fact that, again, if this were followed, this could be avoided. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Jeff, please proofread this; I think you may have inadvertently left something out (maybe "except in"). Newyorkbrad 19:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Duly modified. Probably he was going to say "with few exceptions". — CharlotteWebb 21:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wheel warring is disruptive

10) Wikipedia:Wheel warring is disruptive to the project, whether by an administrative act or a non-administrative act.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Wheel-warring by definition involves administrative actions. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Again harkening back to the Brandt case. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Wheel-warring refers specifically to administrative actions. The term you're looking for is 'edit-warring'. Mackensen (talk) 18:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

There's some discussion elsewhere about "non-administrative" wheel warring that may be worth looking at here. The concept of closing discussions being adminstrative acts that non-admins can accomplish is related to this. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like bdj is taking a non-technicality look at an issue, maybe this should be embraced and not written off?  ;) Warring over an administrative matter is wheel warring whether or not you actually go to Special:Undelete or not. Arbitrators can't desysop someone, only request it from stewards, so what would you call it if an arbitrator posted as a final decision that Admin X was to be desysopped, and another kept reverting him? Merely edit warring, or some sort of "arbitrator warring"? Milto LOL pia 20:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, but it looks more to me like I'm the only one reading the policy as written: "A wheel war is a struggle between two or more admins." What you're talking about is edit-warring. Mackensen (talk) 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

So you don't suppose Jimbo would bat an eye at two arbitrators edit warring over at meta over a desysop request any more than he would at any other pair of edit warriors? Milto LOL pia 20:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me, we're discussing an arbitration case, not what happens the if sky falls in. I'll take your absence of a response to the substantive question as a concession of the point--you either haven't read the policy or don't care what it says. Mackensen (talk) 21:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sense of scale - work with me here. The point here is that "authority warring" of any kind in spirit is about repeatedly reversing actions regarding administrative task, whether the delete, protect, or edit buttons are used. This arbitration situation is the same as closing a deletion discussion, only magnified. Milto LOL pia 21:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You're making a distinction separate from the one policy makes. While this is interesting from an intellectual standpoint (and I'll happily debate it on my talk page later), it isn't very helpful for arbitration. Wheel-warring is recognized, specifically, as edit-warring involving the usage of administrative tools. Now, two arbitrators edit warring over a de-sysop request ought to send chills down everyone's spine, but that raises other issues: 1) Meta requests have to be confirmed at the local wiki; 2) locally requested involuntary de-sysopping only happens as the result of a vote by the Arbitration Committee; 3) there are defined rules about how remedies pass during an arbitration case; 4) most arbitrators are not sysops on meta, only editors (I have perhaps a dozen edits there); 5) the actual act of arbitration rarely requires administrator tools (checkuser is a complicated exception); 6) the actual act of de-sysopping is performed by a steward, who will only act on a legitimate request. While edit-warring between arbitrators would be a bad thing, it would not constitute wheel-warring, and we don't de-sysop for edit-warring alone. Mackensen (talk) 22:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ethics

11) Wikipedia is not an experiment in ethics.

Comment by Arbitrators:

That's for the community, not for ArbCom, to establish. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. To clarify, we don't have an ethical base, as we are an encyclopedia. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Even a tabloid newspaper has ethics. "When in doubt do no harm" in WP:BLP is an ethical reflection. We use judgement in wikipedia not rules, and judgement is always informed by values. Sure values differ - but that's where consensus comes in. We have some shared values. We are here to do good not bad.--Doc^g 19:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Certainly. And how we do good is what's causing these problems. It's one person's set of ethics against anothers, and Wikipedia is not an experiment in that. We are an encyclopedia.--badlydrawnjeff talk 19:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

How we do it will always be a matter for negotiation, however that we do it is not. You seem to think that because individual ethics vary, then we should discard ethics for, what? something else? Rules? Counting sources? Shared vales isn't just a dream, it is necessary in any human community.--Doc^g 20:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

We should discard ethics in favor of writing an encyclopedia. If we share any ethics as a project, that's it. Personal ethics on the matter are irrelevant, and those irrelevant ethics are part of the problem here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

That's you personal (un)ethical philosophy. I suspect it is shared by few.--Doc^g 21:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from being uncivil. Your comment can be written in a more civil way. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 21:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. You know nothing of my personal ethics. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is a poor proposal. Wikipedia is a project about improving the world. You can't do that without an ethical base. That said, it is true that we are not an experiment in ethics. There is no novelty to our ethics - they are things that virtually anyone should be able to understand intuitively. Phil Sandifer 19:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous. Plain silly. If you're an encyclopedia, of course you have ethics, those of giving knowledge to the world. In addition, what ethics we do have are hardly "experimental" in any sense of the word. They're just ordinary man-in-the-pub common decency. Moreschi ^Talk 19:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This proposal is shockingly bad. We agonize sometimes over these issues because there are hard ethical problems, not because there are no ethical problems. Newyorkbrad 20:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

There was a policy proposal on "ethics" a while back. It was summarily rejected and the proponent of this page is now banned for edit warring, personal attacks, and sockpuppetry. I realize that drawing conclusions at face value might not be appropriate here but it's the first thing that came to my mind. — CharlotteWebb 21:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, all those who support the idea of ethical considerations should be banned. Please, ban me first. FCYTravis 21:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the banning isn't really relevant. Of greater interest are the reasons it was rejected, the fact that no attempt has been made to salvage it. — CharlotteWebb 21:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Nobody who disseminates knowledge gets to dodge ethical questions about the process. --Tony Sidaway 01:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Treatment of editors

12) Attempting to drive people off the project by using false statements, nasty statements, or derogatory statements intended to diminish an editor's reputation is harmful to the project and inappropriate behavior.

Comment by Arbitrators:

WP:DICK, in other words. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence and the concept behind the Giano case. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It is unethical.--Doc^g 21:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I don't think that this is relevant. Sean William @ 20:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing you haven't been a target. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, harassment should not be allowed on Wikipedia. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Adminship is no big deal

13) Adminship is no big deal. Having the extra tools does not give weight or precedence to a specific opinion or point of view.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This one's almost "duh", and might be useful here. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence that suggests that many administrators attempt to claim that their opinion holds more weight due to the role they serve in the community. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I agree with both jpgordon and Jeff in that this is sort of obvious, but a precedent needs to be set given that users with extra buttons sometimes use this supposed "status" to give added weight to their views gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 00:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

No argument from me. It's what's inside that counts. --Tony Sidaway 01:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP is a policy about ethics

14) Our policies on biographies about living people exist so that we can be sure to behave in an ethical manner appropriate to our status as a top ten website.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

As ethics are not shared by any particular group (see the discussions revolving around suicide method, for an example), this is basically untrue in practice. In reality, as well, the timing of the creation of BLP does not match up with ethical situations as much as a possible legal one. If the Siegenthaler issue never comes up, BLP doesn't until one like Siegenthaler does. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The ethics of "don't put material that intrudes on people's privacy on one of the largest websites in the world" do not seem to me as arcane as Jeff suggests. Phil Sandifer 19:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course, the idea that widely-reported information "intrudes on people's privacy" is hardly universal. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Simple and to the point. Also true, as clearly stated in the policy. This is the single most important principle in this case, as it gets to the heart of what is wrong with Jeff's actions - that he follows process with no pause to consider the ethical mandates involved. Note that this is clearly stated in the first paragraph of the "rationale" section of the policy: "Wikipedia articles that contain information about living people can affect a subject's life. Wikipedia is a top-ten website, and with such prominance comes a measure of responsibility. Wikipedia is, fundamentally, a project that aims to improve the world. This means approaching the subjects of our articles with compassion, grace and understanding." Phil Sandifer 19:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Yup. Do no harm. Guy (Help!) 19:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not at all what it says. It says the sourcing/attribution must be strict, not that it must not do any harm to the subject (DANIEL BRANDT and any other folks who don't want their bios up) Milto LOL pia 20:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Please remove the "top ten website" bit. If some unforeseen event, some deus ex wikia, moves us up to #1 or down to #94, our content standards should be firmly based on principle and remain the same unless there some reason (unrelated to popularity), to change them. Ethics? Alright, but I don't see how ethics and page rank have anything in common. Is Myspace more ethical than Craigslist? YouTube more ethical than flickr? Don't answer that. — CharlotteWebb 21:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Do no harm. All the rest is wikilawyering. --Tony Sidaway 01:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Sensitive matters

15) Although we have a number of processes for dispute resolution, issues surrounding material that is harmful to real-world people are sometimes not suitable for these avenues, and are especially unsuitable for protracted discussion in these avenues.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This is the current situation; that's why ArbCom sometimes processes cases completely off-Wiki - such as (indeed) Nathanrdotcom. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Nothing in the policy notes this, and the idea that we're not equipped to discuss these issues is completely contrary to our principles as a project. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Common sense really.--Doc^g 19:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Common sense is not common. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I assume people have it until the prove otherwise.--Doc^g 01:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Patrt of assuming good faith, in my eyes, is that your idea of common sense may not match mine. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

A vital point regarding BLPs. Phil Sandifer 19:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Not just BLPs, surely Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Nathanrdotcom was an example of this? Moreschi ^Talk 19:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

We don't know, really. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Primum non nocere

16) Biographies concerning living persons that are well sourced, but exist only to document a misfortune in the subject's life, should be avoided if all possible. Such articles have the potential to cause harm to the subject, due to the creation of a technically permanent documentation of a traumatic or embarrassing event.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I think it would be really nice if we did this. I don't think ArbCom can establish this. "Don't add to the dickishness of an already churlish world" is how I think of it. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

ArbCom doesn't make policy. If they decided to, however, this certainly wouldn't preclude the discussion thereof, which is what's at issue here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Not deleted, necessarily, but they are inappropriate as faux-biographies. If the case itself is a notable example of its type then we can cover it appropriately somewhere, and if the person is prominently identified with that case (e.g. Megan's Law) then a redirect may well be appropriate. Guy (Help!) 19:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Far too strong. Such articles probably should not exist as pseudo-biographies - but the information can exist, where appropriate, elsewhere.--Doc^g 19:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Sean William @ 19:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

What JzG said, almost always these are not appropriate as stand-alone biographies. Moreschi ^Talk 19:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed "articles" to "biographies" and "deleted" to "avoided if all possible". Sean William @ 20:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but this proposal's extent should only cover living persons. We have many articles on victims of famous murders. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 21:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It is ironic that the murderer (the person causing the situation that all the news agencies pick up on) is almost always considered less notable, (unless he is a serial killer). I can see the AFDs now: "*Non-notable one-time murderer. Delete or merge to the article about the Missing White Woman he killed. ~~~~ " Huh? Does BLP, or something similar to it (journalistic ethics?), protect him more than his victim? And if so, is that really the way we want to do things? — CharlotteWebb 22:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is already Wikipedia policy [12]. --Tony Sidaway 00:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Persons of minor interest

17) In many cases, multiple, non-trivial sources such as newspapers will create timely reports of murders, rapes, kidnappings, medical oddities and other news items. However, these stories do not constitute biographical treatments of the subjects of the reports, and the fact that the events relating to these persons have been reported upon in newspapers does not necessarily support the existence of stand-alone Wikipedia biographies of persons involved. It follows from Wikipedia is not a newspaper that merely being in a newspaper does not make someone encyclopedic.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Not sure of the wording; agree with the point. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Maybe this is true, but see above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Great, so it can go through the proper AfD channels and discussed to check that other people agree. violet/riga (t) 21:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed, because it makes sense. FCYTravis 19:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It's not that we can't or mustn't cover such things, but that covering them in the form of stand-alone biographies of individuals who have no real claim to encyclopaedic notability is a violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Guy (Help!) 19:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, to the letter. Moreschi ^Talk 19:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Excellent summary by FCYTravis.--MONGO 21:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Minors

18) Particular care should be taken where article subjects are minors.

Comment by Arbitrators:

In which jurisdiction? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Guy (Help!) 19:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No disagreement, but that doesn't excuse heavy-handed action. Note that the article that brought this situation to ArbCom dealt with an adult. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

(Ethically) true but not relevant as per Jeff. — CharlotteWebb 23:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Clearly appropriate, although I may take a crack at rephrasing it. To Jpgordon, I don't think the precise age of legal majority is the real issue here. Newyorkbrad 23:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Privacy

19) As a matter of course Wikipedia should not include private information about living individuals which is not commonly included in mainstream coverage of those individuals.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Hm. I don't like limiting reliable sourcing to "mainstream coverage" at all. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed Guy (Help!) 19:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Pretty standard - we write from sources. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed.--MONGO 21:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Requests for comment

20) WP:RFC is not a pre-requisite for arbitration.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Seems to be the case. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per practice and per a lack of an actual required process. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Irrelevant. Arbitration is the method of last resort. We urged an RfC because earlier steps in the dispute resolution process hadn't been tried and the matter was so fresh. Of course, that you regarded the RfC as a joke from the outset guaranteed that we'd arrive here. Mackensen (talk) 19:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a principle, should be moved. Thatcher131 19:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Move per Thatcher, and then reject as overstated. Newyorkbrad 19:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved. This is a proposed principle, not a finding of fact. Thatcher131 20:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP is not a show of force

21) WP:BLP is not a tool to bludgeon other editors with, or to delete sourced material that individual administrators deem improper.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. BLP is clear on how it should be used, even with recent changes. Abuse of BLP helps no one, and harms the community as a result. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is a principle, should be moved. Thatcher131 19:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved. This is a proposed principle, not a finding of fact. Thatcher131 20:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this would be better stated as something like "if there is a consensus to keep something despite BLP flavored arguments for its deletions, it can be concluded that there is no BLP-related problem"? Unless I'm missing the point. But I think the people who say "BLP trumps consensus" aren't getting that if there's a consensus that there is no BLP problem, then BLP isn't a, um, problem. Wish I could word that better, but you know what I mean. Milto LOL pia 20:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, no, because that's totally wrong. Consensus doesn't get to decide whether or not there's a BLP problem. If there is one, it goes, whether or not there's any community consensus to the contrary. FCYTravis 20:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that's scary. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a good deal less scary than the alternative, which posits a world in which Wikipedia is a law unto itself and actions taken here don't have real-world consequences. Mackensen (talk) 20:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not scary, Jeff, it's a fact. You can have all the !votes you want establishing a "consensus" to undelete a potentially-libelous article, and it won't be undeleted, because it violates policy. FCYTravis 20:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Funny, that's not what you're saying. You're saying "BLP problem." People also erroneously thought that Qian Zhijun was a bLP problem. We have one person asserting that an article on a dead person is a BLP problem. I agree on the libellious portion, that's not what we're discussing here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Translation: Anyone who says there is a BLP problem is right, and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong. What I think you're failing to take into account is that the person crying "BLP" might be wrong. Milto LOL pia 20:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

As opposed to Jeff's view, where there isn't a BLP problem because he said so? Mackensen (talk) 20:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Judging by your replies here and elsewhere, I'm probably not showing that I know what a gray area is. I'm not saying Jeff was definitely right in all this, I'm just saying that the idea that one admin, anywhere, can say "BLP" and have something stay deleted under penalty of the banhammer despite any sizeable consensus that BLP is not an issue to that particular article is... bad. Milto LOL pia 20:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

When the administrator is a long-time veteran of OTRS, in which he handles requests from aggrieved parties, I'm prepared to trust his judgement on the question a good deal more than I am Jeff's. It's not as though the admins screaming BLP, as it were, have been unsupported. Mackensen (talk) 21:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess we differ in that I wouldn't trust an arbitrary admin's judgment more than I'd trust the judgment of of several, sometimes dozens, of his equally arbitrary co-editors. Milto LOL pia 21:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow. How friggin' rude. Unlike many administrators during this affair, I've made it a point to discuss exactly why an article is not a BLP violation, by pointing out number of sources, tone, etc. Contrast that with the people who simply yell "BLP" and get trigger happy with the delete button. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ownership of WP:BLP

22) WP:BLP is not owned by anyone, and the interpretation of the policy is subject to discussion. (See [13] for an example) and suggest that their interpretation is not subject to discussion.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per link and evidence. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is a principle, should be moved. Thatcher131 19:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved. This is a proposed principle, not a finding of fact. Thatcher131 20:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Linked to WP:OWN since this has support in urrent practice/policy. Milto LOL pia 20:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

BLP and ethics

23) WP:BLP deals with the way we handle articles of living persons. It is not designed to allow for any specific editor's ethical base to take precedent over another's.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence and continuing use. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is a principle, should be moved. Thatcher131 19:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is irrelevant - the case is not about specific editor's ethical bases, but about an ethical base that is inscribed in policy and left to the judgment of specific editors to implement. In this regard, it is like all of our policy. Phil Sandifer 19:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved. This is a proposed principle, not a finding of fact. Thatcher131 20:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ethics count

24) The Biographies of living persons policy gives Wikipedia an ethical compass for its biographical coverage of living people. For this reason, the policy is not only necessary from a legal standpoint, but desirable insofar as it improves the quality of our encyclopedia.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed, because Wikipedia is supposed to be a force for good in the world. Without an ethical footing, we are destined to fail. FCYTravis 19:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Literally, says who? Is the arbcom really going to support such a moralistic principle as this? This may sound nice, but the notion that ethics improves the encyclopedia has no real concrete support - it's just another opinion. Milto LOL pia 20:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it's part of everything we do. If we are not ethical at our core, we do not deserve to exist. FCYTravis 20:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Says who, though? You? God? That's what I mean - what is the support for these assertions? They may be in Jimbo's principles, I've read them but couldn't count them off. Elsewise, what is supporting this idea that Wikipedia must be ethical in order for it to "desere to exist"? Milto LOL pia 20:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a principle, should be moved. Thatcher131 19:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved. This is a proposed principle, not a finding of fact. Thatcher131 20:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wheel-warring

25) Wheel-warring is a Wikipedia term of art defined in Wikipedia:Wheel war, and in the encyclopaedia as wheel war. It is defined as follows: A wheel war is a struggle between two or more admins in which they undo another's administrative actions — specifically, unblocking and reblocking a user; undeleting and redeleting; or unprotecting and reprotecting an article. A conflict in which non-privileged actions are repeatedly reversed is an edit war, as defined at Wikipedia:Edit war.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Guy (Help!) 19:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Moved. This is a proposed principle, not a finding of fact. Thatcher131 20:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. So hard to keep track :-) Guy (Help!) 21:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP does not apply to dead people

26) WP:BLP cannot apply if the subject of the article is dead and no other people are named

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. If BLP applies to the dead then it needs to be renamed. violet/riga (t) 20:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This completely misses the point of WP:BLP, which is about more than just avoiding defamation, it's about respecting the impact Wikipedia can have on real people's lives and being duly sensitive of that; in the case of the recently deceased (e.g. Jerry Falwell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)) defamatory edits can be more harmful than to the living, coming as they do at a time of immense emotional distress. And trust me, I speak here from personal experience of just how gut-wrenchingly awful a careless or malicious comment on websites can be to the family of a recently deceased individual. Endorsing an approach of "hurrah, X is dead, now we can put the boot in" is probably the single worst idea I have seen in this case. Guy (Help!) 21:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Not true. Dead people can still be libeled. Sean William @ 20:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Not under U.S. law they can't. *** Crotalus *** 00:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, articles on the recently dead may still hurt the living, making the policy germaine. Phil Sandifer 20:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose per JzG. FCYTravis 21:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose per [14]. — CharlotteWebb 22:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose BLP is partly about good taste and not causing distress to living people who may be hurt by our articles. Obviously, BLP doesn't apply to Nero or Elizabeth I of England (though NPOV and NOR still do). But the principle behind it should certainly apply to recently-deceased people, and we should be mindful of the possible distress of bereaved relatives if we engage in a tabloid-style free-for-all as soon as someone dies. ElinorD (talk) 00:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

No rush to undelete

27) With a few exceptions, Wikipedia does not suffer greatly if an article is 'missing' for a while.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This fits with one of my basic Wikipedia principles: "What's your goddamn hurry?" --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed: it seems to me what lies behind wheel wars is the notion that if something is, in someone's opinion, wrongly deleted, that the deletion must be reversed IMMEDIATELY. Generally, that's untrue. If George Bush or the mainpage go red, that's different. But if some marginally notable biography, or internet meme is deleted, there's not great rush. Put a note of query on the deleter's talk page, wait for an answer (it might be something you have not though of) discuss it with others. If there's no resolution, then head to DRV. Keep cool. Libellous articles may need killed ASAP, bad blocks may need lifted swiftly, a redlink for a bit does no real harm.--Doc^g 20:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

But apparently it can be harmed by having a discussion on an article already deleted remain open for a time? I assume you believe so by your multiple speedy closes. Milto LOL pia 20:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

The difference is there's no danger George W. Bush or the main page will be accidentally forgotten about. Judging by Special:Log/delete there have been about 4,000 pages deleted or undeleted in the last 24 hours and I have no clue what percentage of them were so bad they needed it. You said "for a while" which I assume means you are referring to the more classical type of BLP issues that can actually, in your opinion, be remedied. Ones where "an immaculate article about this person would be the best result" as opposed to other cases where you feel "no article should exist, regardless of its quality". I realize bad articles can be very slow to improve, but keeping them deleted in the mean time will make that process slower and less likely to ever happen. — CharlotteWebb 22:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

That depends on your definition of "a few" . I would suggest modifying this to say an article on a subject of minor importance/notability. Mister.Manticore 01:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Bingo! It's still in Wikipedia, but our servers aren't serving it because there are unresolved doubts about its suitability. This is normal practice on nearly all websites. --Tony Sidaway 01:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

No rush to delete

28) With a few exceptions, Wikipedia does not suffer greatly if an article remains on the site for a while during a discussion.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Oh, I dunno; every day a piece of crap is on Wikipedia, Wikipedia is weakened. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Our policies handle situations where we must be rid of articles quickly. In the situation such as this and the recent deletions noted at the evidence page, these articles have remained in place in an unproblematic state for, in many cases, years. To simply delete them suddenly without discussion, when they are well-sourced, not negative in tone, and meet all relevant standards, is a slap in the face to all contributors. There's no hurry in either direction. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Especially when the article is over three years old, mirrored across the net, and all the other non-mirror hits on the first page of Google are news sites fully detailing the person/event. violet/riga (t) 21:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Generally agree. But there is always more potential for harm in having a bad article, than having no article at all.--Doc^g 21:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed; the exceptions should be cases where the article, by its very existence, has immediate potential for harm to the subject (i.e. not cases where the perceived harm stems from the longevity and prominence of the article rather than actual libellous, defamatory or privacy-violating content). It makes it very hard for non-administrators to disagree with a "sort-of-BLP" deletion if the article history is inaccessible. --YFB ¿ 21:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I largely disagree. Most of our articles are seen by few people. Temporary gaps in our coverage, with few exceptions, are not that big a deal. Phil Sandifer 22:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Editing out the offending portions should always be the first (and most urgent) step. Sometimes it's as simple as reverting the most recent edit. From there, see what's left and whether it's salvageable. IF nothing, THEN delete. Otherwise, do make sure all remaining all content is properly referenced and presented in a neutral manner. Recruit some fellow editors to help keep an eye on it when you're asleep. — CharlotteWebb 23:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I concur with this, except I would point out that those exceptions are very important. Mister.Manticore 01:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

If Biographies of living persons (BLP) is cited by a deleting administrator, it means that at least one trusted Wikipedian believes that the article has a strong potential for harm. It's a way to say "whoa! somebody could get hurt here!"

If he's always doing this for no reason, he shouldn't be an admin and you can take him through dispute resolution if he won't stop. On the other hand, our admins seem to be alarmingly good at working out what is and isn't deletable crap. I should know, I used to root through the logs to find speedied stuff that shouldn't be, and I looked at many, many thousands of deleted article histories without finding much that I thought belonged here. --Tony Sidaway 01:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of WP:BLP deletions

29) If any editor believes an deletion performed under WP:BLP may be improper, the first step should be to ask the deleting admin for a rationale, and await an answer.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Again, stop rushing to DRV or worse undeletion. The admin may have a reason that the contester is not aware of. Actually, assuming good faith, means that you should consider that your judgement may be wrong and the other party's correct. You may have missed something.--Doc^g 20:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree with this. As a matter of courtesy, all deletion challenges should at least be discussed first. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Hmm, while it's often a nice courtesy to talk to another person first, I don't believe that it needs to be enshrined as the first step. Mister.Manticore 01:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Discuss the issue, not the action

30) If an action of yours (administrative or otherwise) has been reversed, it is more productive to discuss the actual issue straight away, rather than insisting on self-reversion before any further discussion can take place or bickering about whether or not the reversal was an act of wheel-/edit-warring.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Not helpful. There is a very important issue in ensuring admins understand they must not undelete BLP deletions without discussion. That isn't just a squabble on a point of process, it is critical. In undeleting a BLP deletion you may be recreating a libel you've missed - it is absolutely basic that you ask the deleting admin for comment before jumping on the tools. If I went on a bit it was because of that. The action was the issue.--Doc^g 22:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed, based particularly on the discourse between Doc glasgow, violetriga and others regarding violetriga's undeletions. If anyone can think of a better title for this, feel free. --YFB ¿ 20:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, hence my continued "please talk about the issue" comments to Doc glasgow in response to his refusal to discuss it. violet/riga (t) 21:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. The squabbling over "it was wheel-warring/no it wasn't" is not helpful. Friday (talk) 21:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Basic human dignity

31) Implicit in the policy on biographies of living people is the understanding that Wikipedia articles should respect the basic human dignity of their subjects. Wikipedia aims to be a reputable encyclopedia, not a tabloid; our articles must not serve primarily to mock or disparage their subjects, whether directly or indirectly. This is of particularly profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions; Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Some notes. Kirill Lokshin 21:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Nothing wrong with this in theory. However, we should not strive for a greater sense of dignity than our subjects pursue themselves - to go after articles on self-promoting entities because we believe them to be in poor taste when those subjects participate is not good practice. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Absolutely...we are not a tabloid.--MONGO 21:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Primum non nocere. Sean William @ 21:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse; consonant with my own remarks on various other pages, although Kirill, as usual, is more succinct than I. Newyorkbrad 21:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, per all above. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 00:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Articles about living people notable only for one event

32) Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be memorialized forever with an encyclopedia entry. In many cases it will be difficult or even impossible to write a fair, neutral and encyclopedic article about a person's life if the person is notable for a single event, no matter how well that event may be documented. [15]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Thatcher131 00:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Internet memes

32.1) Wikipedia is not Google. The fact that someone has achieved notariety as an Internet meme does not automatically mean they should be memorialized forever with an encyclopedia entry. In many cases, the subjects of "memes" are in fact the subject of derision and ridicule. They may be innocent or at least basically good people who had the misfortune to be caught doing something stupid in front of a camera. Although exceptions may exist, the principle "Do no harm" embedded in WP:BLP generally requires that Wikipedia not maintain articles about such people, even if the meme can be documented by reliable sources.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Not sure what this has to do with anything, really. We already cover this in many other places. This seems like a veiled reference to the continued persisting thought taht I somehow really favor internet memes. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Thatcher131 00:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse; will address in my evidence if any opposition develops. Newyorkbrad 00:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed gaillimh^{Conas tá tú?} 00:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Template

before using the last blank template, please make a copy for the next person

32) {text of proposed principle}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

before using the last blank template, please make a copy for the next person

32) {text of proposed principle}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

before using the last blank template, please make a copy for the next person

32) {text of proposed principle}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

before using the last blank template, please make a copy for the next person

32) {text of proposed principle}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

The use of WP:BLP

1) The specifics of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons was not violated by Qian Zhijun at the time of its first deletion.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per written language of WP:BLP and per the discussion at the RfC and here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

False. BLP is a principle and not just a set of rules about sources.--Doc^g 19:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

A principle that the article undoubtedly met. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Note - I've rewritten this for specifics. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is not true. BLP talks specifically about the ethical mandates of being a top ten website - these apply to all articles that can affect the lives of living people. Phil Sandifer 19:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is true. BLP issues were nonexistent with this article, it met the proper standard. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Qian Zhijun

2) The deletion and re-deletions of Qian Zhijun following the first deletion review were improper, as the article did not violate any core policies or WP:BLP, and the consensus was to overturn the initial deletion.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per policy, per the last legitimate deletion review. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

A number of experienced administrators disagreed. Is it arbcom's role to overrule them on content judgement? (That's genuinely a question).--Doc^g 19:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Whether "experienced administrators" disagreed is as relevant as the fact that a number of experienced editors agreed. No one's more special than anyone else, and this principle is designed not to comment on the status of the article long-term, but to simply re-affirm the last proper consensus result. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Why? Needs fleshing out. Thatcher131 19:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Status of Qian Zhijun at the time of deletion

3) Qian Zhijun, at the time of its deletion, met all relevant inclusion policies and guidelines.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per policy, per the last legitimate deletion review, per the article. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I would prefer not to see the arbcom rule on our inclusion policies at this stage. Phil Sandifer 19:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This wouldn't be a ruling on those policies, but merely an affirmation that, as noted, the article met them. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Early closures were improper

4) The early closures of the subsequent deletion reviews and AfDs of Qian Zhijun were improper.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Let's put it out there, since it's true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Badlydrawnjeff (talk • contribs) Revision as of 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agree WRT the DRV - snowing of DRVs is a big problem. If the nominator withdraws the nomination, if it's a bad faith/trolling nomination, or if it's a rehash of a previous DRV with nothing new, by all means, snow it. But if there is a good faith, EVEN IF ILL-CONCEIVED nomination, it needs to be allowed to take place. Snowing the thing can only cause hurt feelings. --BigDT 23:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff and BLP

5) While badlydrawnjeff (talk · contribs) has been a vocal critic of BLP as written, he has not shown evidence of editing outside of the BLP policy, or pushing for the undeletion of blatant violations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence, because it's true. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is begging the question. First of all, your content-editing is not at issue. Second of all, what constitutes a "blatant violation" is hotly disputed. Naturally you've acted completely correctly in your own mind--but that's why we're here, isn't it? Mackensen (talk) 19:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I'm allowed to say why I think we're here. This is simply a statement regarding the evidence that a) exists, and b) will be forthcoming. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You can say this if you wish, though I think the latter half is untrue. The Barbara Bauer DRV springs to mind - a blatant coatrack article that attacked a living person, if ever there was one. Moreschi ^Talk 19:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree on that, as did many others. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Which is probably half the problem. Your definition of "blatant violation" is way outside the project norm. Moreschi ^Talk 20:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

And that's untrue. My definition is derived solely from relevant policy and guidelines. --20:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I've changed "opponent" to "critic" as I think it more accurately describes the relationship here. — CharlotteWebb 23:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff

6) Badlydrawnjeff has edited Wikipedia since February 2005 and has more than 18,500 edits across a variety of namespaces. He is not an administrator. In addition to his mainspace contributions, Badlydrawnjeff is well-known as a forceful advocate of the "inclusionist" philosophy and advocates that much disputed content remain in the encyclopedia.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Nothing false here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad 22:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

How is "he is not an administrator" relevant? Also, the last phrase, "advocates that much disputed content remain in the encyclopedia" needs some work (or to be removed completely). It doesn't make any sense - it makes it sound like he advocates keeping the content merely based on the fact that it is disputed. --BigDT 23:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

"He is not an administrator" is important in identifying the parties given allegations of wheel-warring, etc. It's also a formulation I've used before in identifying the players. As for your second point, "much disputed" means "a great deal of disputed" - anyone can change the wording if anyone else was confused. Newyorkbrad 00:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff's participation in deletion discussions

7) Badlydrawnjeff's participation in deletion discussions is in good faith and consistent with his personal Wikipedia philosophy. At times this has been productive in causing the retention and/or improvement of worthwhile content. However, at times badlydrawnjeff has expressed his views in harshly strident terms, or has pressed his position procedurally to the point that some users have considered his actions to be disruptive. His actions in connection with the former "Brian Peppers" article, including but not limited to his commencement and pursuit of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Samuel Blanning, are an example.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Mostly fair. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. We need to see both the good and the bad. Newyorkbrad 22:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's growth and status

8) The English Wikipedia has reportedly become one of the ten most visited websites in the entire world. Because of our high siterank and the extensive interlinking of Wikipedia pages to one another, a Wikipedia article on an individual or topic will often be among the highest-ranking, if not the very first, page to turn up when a Google or comparable search is conducted.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad 22:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This was already true a year or so ago when Wikipedia was only a top 20 site, at least for whatever I was searching for, the the first search result was on Wikipedia and thus I began editing. — CharlotteWebb 23:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Effects of Wikipedia's growth and status

9) As Wikipedia has grown, there has been extensive attention both within and outside the project to the effect that coverage on Wikipedia has on living persons and a strong, although not unanimous, consensus has emerged that increased awareness and sensitivity by Wikipedians toward these concerns has become a matter of imperative public importance.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad 22:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Tony Sidaway has a long history of incivility

10) Tony Sidaway has had a long history of incivility. The most recent situation is emblematic of the way Tony communicates with other users.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence and long acceptance of such a thing that should have been nipped in the bud years ago. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 01:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Doc glasgow has made a number of improper deletions

11) Doc glasgow has made a significant number of improper deletions based on his interpretation of WP:BLP. These deletions do not fit the criteria for speedy deletion, nor the threshold required at WP:BLP for such activity.

Comment by Arbitrators:

One is a number. What's the point? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Opposed per my evidence - although I'm sure I've got some calls wrong, DRV consensus tends to support me more than you. --Doc^g 23:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

And there's plenty of evidence to suggest that DRV "consensus" (tough to call it that since it's operated as a vote count for so long) has been coming to the proper conclusions anyway. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

JzG has made a number of improper deletions

12) JzG has made a significant number of improper deletions based on his interpretation of WP:BLP and his interpretation of WP:CSD. These deletions do not fit the criteria for speedy deletion, nor the threshold required at WP:BLP for such activity.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Find me an admin who has never ever made a bad call. the question here is: do I habitually make bad calls? I have deleted well over 5,000 separate pages, of which virtually all are either still deleted, salted, redirects or were deleted to make way for moves. Of those deleted citing WP:BLP, at least some will be the result of OTRS complaints, such as Melissa Guille (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), where the deleted version was defamatory. A complete rewrite is one of the bluelinks in my deletion log. I'm happy to be set right if the arbitrators think I'm excessively rouge. Guy (Help!) 23:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

H has been incivil

13) User:H has been incivil toward badlydrawnjeff throughout this situation, up to and including on-wiki and off-wiki statements.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per logs sent to ArbCom and evidence page. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Violetriga wheel warred

14) User:Violetriga has, by reversing administrative actions on articles she had a personal stake in without comment, wheel warred inappropriately.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

As per evidence section. Phil Sandifer 00:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons is policy

15) Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (BLP) is a policy that exists, in part, to protect Wikipedia from liability by requiring that biographies have reliable sources, especially about controversial claims. BLP also requires editors to be sensitive about biographies of living people. "Do no harm" has been incorporated into BLP since at least early 2006 [16].

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

proposed Thatcher131 00:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

People notable for a single event

15.1) WP:BLP has recently been modifed to give guidance on articles about people notable for a single event.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

proposed Thatcher131 00:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The example of Rachel Marsden

15.2) Rachel Marsden is a public figure who is the subject of a wikipedia biography, Rachel Marsden (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). At one time, the article dealt almost exclusively with an incident that occured during her college years, in part because the only sources found that covered her popst-college career were partisan and extremely biased. Although the college incident was well documented with reliable sources, the arbitration committee ruled in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Rachel_Marsden that Rachel Marsden, in its negative form, is inconsistent with Wikipedia:biographies of living persons, directed that the article be stubbed, and cautioned two administrators who were largely responsible for the negative version. Thatcher131 00:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

proposed Thatcher131 00:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff Block Inappropriate

16) The block of badlydrawnjeff was inappropriate and displayed poor judgment and poor effort in finding a consensus for controversial actions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Agreed. But, so does everyone. We don't need arbitration to decide this. We have consensus, even unanimity. No need to further pillory people who have been castigated already.--Doc^g 00:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

If we're not going to introduce sanctions here about it, I don't think it's all that important here. I'm still weighing a separate case for it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This was really, really stupid, guys. Phil Sandifer 00:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed in theory, but prefer the wording of 17, which takes this from the point of view of impact on this case rather than piling further on the admin(s) who made a mistake. Newyorkbrad 01:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Not just poor judgement, but poor practice, in that it didn't even seek to notify him of anything, but represented a severe usurpation of the concept of discussion and consensus. Mister.Manticore 01:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, a separate case for the block, a week later, is a really, really terrible idea. What could it possibly accomplish? (Feel free to respond on my talk.) Newyorkbrad 01:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Unjustified block of badlydrawnjeff disapproved, disregarded

16.1) Badlydrawnjeff was briefly blocked on May 23, 2007, but the block was quickly overturned and was disapproved by strong consensus as being unwarranted and inconsistent with the blocking policy. The Arbitration Committee agrees with this consensus and therefore this block has not been considered against badlydrawnjeff in any way.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Disapproves of the block but in a way that ties it into the case rather than piling on against the administrator(s) who made a mistake. Newyorkbrad 01:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

QZ

17) On 4 May, an article about a Chinese person who became famous for the web meme his appearance inspired and he himself cultivated, was nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qian Zhijun (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qian Zhijun|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). The discussion was closed as delete by admin Daniel (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on May 11, then reopened by Daniel and closed by Drini (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on May 12.

• First DRV filed by DESiegel (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on May 13, closed by Xoloz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on May 18 with the decision to relist at AfD.
• The second AfD was speedily closed by Thebainer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
• Second DRV filed by badlydrawnjeff, speedily closed by JzG.
• Third DRV filed by DESiegel, closed the same day by Viridae (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) as a relisting, after many editors edit-warred over the DRV.
• Third AfD speedily closed as delete, based on the previous deletions.
• Fourth DRV filed by badlydrawnjeff, speedily closed by JzG.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Probably should add that Drini closed the afd as 'delete' and The bainer didn't just shut the afd down, he offered an extensive rationale in the close. These were not just shut downs of the debate but careful assessments of consensus. Whilst Xoloz's DRV close was 'procedural'.--Doc^g 01:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and fix it. Minor tweaks are fine as long as they don't materially alter what other people have commented on. Thatcher131 01:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Based on Jeff's evidence here. Thatcher131 01:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse. Suggest possibly adding "eventually" before cultivated. My understanding is that the publicity was completely involuntary for awhile before the individual decided that he was stuck with the fame for awhile whether he liked it or not, so he might as well capitalize on it (an experience similar to that of an editor here who went through much the same thing). Newyorkbrad 01:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion rationale

17.1) Admins endorsing the deletion of the QZ article relied on the "Do no harm" section of WP:BLP as well as a lack of encyclopedic notability. The internet phenomenon is notable, the kid not, and there's no need to write an article to keep him embarassing him. How is this biography notable? Will Qian be remembered in three years from now, never mind in three months. Is this the greatest that this kid can ever aspire to achieve in his life--being the butt of a joke? Weak appeals to Wikipedia is not censored do not trump our overriding obligation to living people, or the need for Wikipedia to try and be an encyclopedia of some repute. This is taking "sum of human knowledge" to absurdity.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

There is a difference between "notable" (as understood by denizens of AfD and DRV) and encyclopedic. Thatcher131 01:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse. Newyorkbrad 01:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Additional recent examples

17.2) The "Do no harm" rationale has been applied to other recent deletions of biographies of living persons who were notable for a single event in their lives, even when reliable sources documented that event. For example, Robyn Dawkins and Gavin Clinton-Parker, Crystal Gail Magnum, and Shawn Hornbeck and Ben Ownby.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Thatcher131 01:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse. See my extensive comments on the Hornbeck/Ownby DRV, on which I was the deleting administrator. Newyorkbrad 01:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Qian Zhijun was proper

18) The deletion of the article Qian Zhijun was proper according to the policies. Even if it was not done within the bounds of current policies in letter, it would be a valid exercise of WP:IAR.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Unacceptable. The first half of the commentary is false, the second half is sad if we need to invoke IAR to do something that offers no net benefit to the project. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed by Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 01:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I doubt the committtee will specifically endorse this. They may slap some people for edit warring over the closure, and they may alter the deletion landscape by the principles they endorse (or oppose) and the remedies they endorse (or oppose) but they are unlikely to come out specifically endorse any particular content decision. Thatcher131 01:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Template

19) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

20) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

21) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

22) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

23) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Badlydrawnjeff placed on civility parole

1) badlydrawnjeff is placed on civility parole for three months. If he violates said parole, blocks will begin at 24 hours, and escalating to one year.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Feh. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Wording is not what is normally used, but that can be fixed in the transfer over. Per evidence, perhaps the only actual thing that could be held against me, but I also have never been sanctioned by ArbCom before, so... --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Useless, civility is not the issue.--Doc^g 20:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Civility parole is almost impossible to enforce objectively. If an editor has been repeatedly uncivil in a certain area of the project, whether teletubby articles or deletion discussions, it is simpler (and far more common in past cases) to ban the editor from that area for a period of time. Thatcher131 19:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with Thatcher, and I'm not really sure this is the issue anyway (and if it were, just three months of civility parole would be so weak as to be meaningless). Moreschi ^Talk 20:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff is cautioned.

2) badlydrawnjeff is cautioned.

Comment by Arbitrators:

...about what? Excessive typing? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed, second choice. Per whatever people might be thinking, although I don't think there's much evidence for this either. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to add alternatives. I don't really see a problem with me at all here, so... --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

A general caution? I think this needs some elaboration to be useful. ChazBeckett 19:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but people seem to think I should be held accountable for something, so... --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Much too vague. Newyorkbrad 20:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Danger, Jeff Raymond! The cabal is after you. — CharlotteWebb 00:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You win at the internet. --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff is warned

3) No action is taken toward badlydrawnjeff for any excessive zeal he has displayed, although he is warned to be aware of the situation around him for the future.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I think the proposer can undertake this without our help. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per MONGO arbitration last year. Still unnecessary in my mind, but throwing it out there. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

In the Requests for arbitration/MONGO case, Badlydrawnjeff was found 6-0 to be critical of my efforts to defeat harassment. There is no doubt that he has not learned from this, and since has repeatedly been overly critical of other editors whose actions he has been in dispute with.--MONGO 20:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

What was there to learn from? It was simply a finding that said I was critical. And I still am critical. If that was meant to be a warning, it would have been in the remedies section. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, harassment is so not an issue here. Milto LOL pia 21:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The finding was that you were critical Jeff, I'd say, critical over something you shouldn't have been. That this has been repeated by you numerous times since regarding other admins you have been in disagreement with is not something that should be overlooked. Questioning admins and others on their actions is fine, condemning them repeatedly isn't.--MONGO 21:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course, I wasn't critical of your combating harassment, but instead on how you chose to combat it. You seem to be missing that component. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The issues from the so-called MONGO case are not relevant to those presented here, and we have more than enough issues in this case without bringing in inflammatory, extraneous matters. Newyorkbrad 21:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. At the time I was trying to defend myself from incessant trolling as an Admin, Badlydrawnjeff critizied my efforts and my administrative decisions relentlessly. He has repeated these actions with other administrators with whom has has had disagreements with since, to the point of being relentless. What we have here is a pattern of challenging admins, (who are, in almost all cases, trying to do the best they can), well beyond the point that most of us would, and demonstrates an inability on his part to assume good faith.--MONGO 22:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Tony Sidaway placed on civility parole

4) Tony Sidaway placed on civility parole. Escalating blocks, etc.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Just say no to "parole". --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Based not only on the most recent evidence, but on years of activity. Enough is enough. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Nonsense. Tony delivers, from time to time, a needed dose of hardened common sense, but I am unaware of a circumstance where he has caused an escellation of tensions in relation to this matter. Phil Sandifer 19:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You may want to read the evidence. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I see four diffs that you unconvincingly describe as condescending. Phil Sandifer 19:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I see why. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This proposal is wishful thinking at best - David Gerard 19:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed Tony Sidaway has been a long time incivil editor, this civility parole is long overdue. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Tony Sidaway is blunt and to the point...that is not the same thing as being incivil.--MONGO 21:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Over-bluntness may incite anger and hatred, and is not the best way to handle problems. There is a reason why there are euphemisms in English language. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 21:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Tony is blunt and to the point, but there is a right way and a wrong way to be blunt and to the point. --BigDT 23:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Doc glasgow placed on administrative 1RR

5) Doc glasgow placed on administrative 1RR, which includes deletions and closing of discussions and debates per Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Daniel_Brandt_deletion_wheel_war#Doc_glasgow.2C_Bumm13.2C_and_Mailer_diablo_cautioned.

Comment by Arbitrators:

All admins should be on 1RR. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Had he not been warned about this in the Brandt case, I wouldn't bother, but his action shows a lack of understanding of the magnitude of the situation. For the record, removal of administrative rights may be too strong at this point. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Appears to be founded on a misapprehension as to what exactly constitutes wheel-warring, and a misreading of the referenced arbitration case. Guy (Help!) 19:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I should just ask for a removal of powers, then. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Closing discussions and debates is not an administrative action. Other than that, I have always considered myself on a 0-1RR as regards admin actions. If I've broken that, then detail it, I will explain or apologise.--Doc^g 19:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

See the evidence page. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The intent of this is more to hold Doc more accountable for his activity. If 1RR-style stuff is out, then maybe a different rationale is necessary - restricted from making decisions on deletions without secondary input or restricted from non-OTRS deletions. I'd like to refrain from a complete loss of tools, as this isn't a chronic situation but rather a recent problematic one. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

If you violate adminstrative 1RR, you're probably wheel-warring, which you shouldn't be doing anyway. This is not in line with current practice. Doesn't actually say anything. Moreschi ^Talk 19:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

All administrators are on administrative 1RR regardless under normal circumstances. Mackensen (talk) 19:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Doc glasgow placed on administrative restriction

5.1) Doc glasgow, except in cases involving OTRS responsibilities, is restricted from deletion of articles without discussion or secondary oversight for six months. Doc glasgow can still tag articles for speedy deletion, nominate for deletion at AfD, and close discussions at AfD and DRV, but he is to refrain from executing deletions of articles on his own.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. An alternate to above, would still need some clarification from wording, but perhaps a better restriction given the situation. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Not at all convinced this is in any way warranted, and what exactly qualifies as "secondary oversight", anyway? Moreschi ^Talk 21:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Preposterous.--MONGO 21:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

As below, this is an all-around bad idea and can serve only to be annoying. --BigDT 23:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Doc glasgow placed on civility parole

6) Doc glasgow placed on civility parole.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Several threats: "The last person who called my BLP removals vandalism got trashed in an RfC" and "I fear will arbitration be the end result, and wheel-warriors (for that is what arbcom has repeatedly called it) will likely be sanctioned." Not civil. violet/riga (t) 21:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The first statement was not a threat, but a fairly accurate description of this. I don't like my good faith actions being described as "vandalism" as happened there, and as you did today. The second was a warning - sorry about the tone, you are right, it was uncalled for. But you were attacking me as a vandal at the time.--Doc^g 23:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The evidence for this remedy is not strong.--MONGO 22:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Per MONGO. Doc's level of civility isn't perfect. Whose is? Newyorkbrad 23:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Doc glasgow strongly cautioned

7) Doc glasgow is strongly cautioned regarding BLP deletions, especially when challenged in good faith by other editors.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding what? Makes no sense?--Doc^g 19:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe making comments like "sod off" and the like? Milto LOL pia 21:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sod off is sufficiently incivil. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 21:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Doc glasgow admonished

8) Doc glasgow is admonished.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Um. About what? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Again, due to Brandt case. Weakest scenario. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agreed. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Why? Regarding what? Makes no sense in this form. Moreschi ^Talk 20:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

In my experience seeing Doc glasgow's posts, he is overly condescending and sometimes use insulting words, violating incivility. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 21:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Much too vague to be of use to the arbitrators, which is the point of this page. Newyorkbrad 23:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

JzG admonished

9) JzG admonished.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Details? Milto LOL pia 21:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I've chosen this proposal somewhat randomly as an instance of a problem afflicting this workshop. Editors need to bear in mind that the purpose of this page is to be of use to the arbitrators. Therefore, proposals need to be sufficiently concrete to draw reactions from arbitrators, parties, and others, to crystalize thinking, to help the arbs along the path to formulating the decision. A workshop proposal should have a concrete objective of furthering the decision-making process, ideally by providing a snippet of quotable prose that could make its way into the decision itself if the arbitrators agreed with it. Now I think we can all agree that if the decision in this case included the remedy "JzG [is] admonished" as a bare conclusion, that would not be satisfactory. Therefore this proposal is much too vague and should be deleted improved. Newyorkbrad 23:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

JzG placed on administrative 1RR

10) JzG placed on adminstrative 1RR, which includes deletions and closing of discussions and debates.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per long history of disruptive closures of discussions and questionable deletions. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

No, that does not seem to be good remedy. Sean William @ 19:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Per above, not in line with current practice and attitudes towards wheel-warring. You violate admin 1RR, you're probably wheel-warring. We've moved on since the Tony Sidaway arbitration case. Moreschi ^Talk 19:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

JzG placed on adminstrative restriction

10.1) JzG, except in cases involving OTRS responsibilities, is restricted from deletion of articles without discussion or secondary oversight for six months. JzG can still tag articles for speedy deletion, nominate for deletion at AfD, and close discussions at AfD and DRV, but he is to refrain from executing deletions of articles on his own.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Identical to above, reflecting 1RR concerns and evidence. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I don't see how that would benefit anybody. Sean William @ 21:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

So he can't delete articles that consist of "Augustus has a tiny penis", it seems, and what qualifies as "secondary oversight"? Moreschi ^Talk 21:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Admins aren't expected to be perfect, yet here, an effort to restrict an almost perfect admin is attempted. Preposterous.--MONGO 21:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Almost perfect? JzG is nowhere near perfect. I respect him personally, but he definitely has done some incivilities and over-hasty actions. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 21:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is an all-around bad idea. --BigDT 23:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. No basis for this. Newyorkbrad 23:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

H placed on civility parole

11) H (talk · contribs) placed on civility parole.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This is a remedy, not an enforcement, isn't it? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Per evidence submitted to the arbcom-l list and evidence page. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Private communications are not within ArbCom's scope barring extraordinary circumstances. Mackensen (talk) 19:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd say this is fairly extraordinary. Also, the MONGO case noted that off-wiki attacks were permissable as evidence. ArbCom has the relevant logs. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I'd say extraordinary is when somebody's life has been threatened off-wiki. That happens, incidentally. It's admissable, sure, but is it actionable? Mackensen (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Then we disagree on this. But HighinBC's civility is an ongoing problem, on or off the project. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I have not seen the IRC logs, so I can't comment in that regard. However, in my interactions with HighInBC I have generally found him to be rigorously civil and to actively make a stand against incivility where he encounters it. So I'm somewhat puzzled by this one. I may be misinformed and this comment may be out of place, in which case I will reconsider or move it. --YFB ¿ 20:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Along with the evidence at the evidence page, telling a user to "get off the cross, Jesus needs it" typically isn't the best way to go about things. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen that comment, so I assume it was on IRC. It's not the sort of thing I'd usually expect from H and I'm disappointed if that's what he said, regardless of the context. I believe this is one reason why non-publicly-logged off-wiki discussion about Wikipedia issues that are not strictly privacy-related is harmful to the project. Of the diffs on the evidence page, only the one about your actions being indistinguishable from trolling seems likely to be interpreted as uncivil and I doubt that was the intent. Likewise if this comment belongs somewhere else, I'll move it - I'm not that familiar with ArbCom protocols. --YFB ¿ 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree no compelling evidence has suggested this particular remedy. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

General caution

12) Administrators are cautioned to not disrupt the community via the short-circuiting of discussion or the unilateral activity on controversial or contentious situations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. General precaution to the rest of administrators not involved in this particular case, but doing the same things. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

And if that "unilateral activity in a controversial situation" is completely the right thing policy-wise and is later roundly endorsed? Moreschi ^Talk 19:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree no compelling evidence has suggested this particular remedy. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff banned from deletion discussions

13) Badlydrawnjeff is banned from deletion discussions for X amount of time.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Good idea. I suggest X=3 hours. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

As noted above, there's actually no evidence for this except that people don't like what I have to say. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Extension of my proposed temporary injunction. Is well-supported by the evidence - Jeff disrupts these pages, plain and simple. Phil Sandifer 19:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Too broad. Perhaps restrict to BLP deletion discussions, at best. Moreschi ^Talk 19:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

BLP discussions are where Jeff causes the most harm, but they are not the whole of his problem. Phil Sandifer 19:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This still falsely assumes I'm disruptive in these discussions. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Stong oppose. Jeff provides a valuable role in deletion discussions, and has on numerous occassions successfully overturned hasty deletion decisions. Catchpole 20:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree no compelling evidence has suggested this particular remedy. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Best remedy for Wikipedia.--MONGO 21:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I have probably closed as many (non-obvious) AFDs as an anyone in the past 1.5 years and I think this would be a bad idea. Civility parole sure, if the evidence supports it, but there's no need to ban him just from deletion discussions. It smacks of just wanting to filter out unpopular opinions... which makes discussions worthless in the long run. --W.marsh 23:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff banned from Wikipedia:Deletion review

14) Badlydrawnjeff is banned from commenting at Wikipedia:Deletion review for X amount of time.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Again, no evidence that this remedy is necessary. I have not been disruptive. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Alteration of Phil Sandifer's proposal above. Sean William @ 19:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Clearly you have been. Why else would we be here? Sean William @ 19:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

We're here because of the disruptive deletions of an article. People simply want to make it about me because I dare to challenge them. I haven't been disruptive, and there's no evidence to suggest it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree no compelling evidence has suggested this particular remedy. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 20:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Jeff is an invaluble contributor to deletion review. Deletion review is needed to allow non-administators to discuss cases when they think articles have been mistakenly deleted. Catchpole 20:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff restricted

15) Badlydrawnjeff is restricted to one comment in any deletion debate.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Just ban him, then. Criminy. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. Jeff often makes valid points, they get lost in the noise. Keep it to one comment per debate (which may be amended, perhaps with an upper limit on size or number of edits) and it would be easier to tell the two apart. Guy (Help!) 20:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This would then assume it's not a discussion. Or that I shouldn't be allowed to take part in the discussion, which is really absurd. Not to mention, still, that I'm not disruptive in these discussions. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Not disruptive? Ya think? Guy (Help!) 21:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not disruptive. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Disagree, no compelling evidence. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 22:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is silly - if he is being disruptive, ban him from the discussions; if he isn't, then don't - this remedy serves no purpose other than to be annoying to anyone involved. --BigDT 23:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. The nature of discussion often involves statements, replies, counterstatements. IOW, an ongoing dialog. Heck, if somebody had a question for Jeff about his statement, this proposal would render it impossible for him to respond. If there are any problems with discussions going off track, a blanket statement that editors should work carefully to not get distracted would be more effective. Mister.Manticore 01:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Badlydrawnjeff admonished

16) Badlydrawnjeff may continue to contribute in deletion discussions, but is admonished to keep a cool mind and not to make uncivil comments during the discussion. This include AFD and DRV.

Comment by Arbitrators:

s/Badlydrawnjeff/Everyone/g --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed by Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 21:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think that Badlydrawnjeff's problem is that he's uncivil. It's his interpretation of WP:BLP that people have problems with. Sean William @ 21:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Violetriga desysopped

17) Violetriga is to be desysopped. She may appeal this decision to the arbcom or through the usual procedures.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Not sure that her activity really reaches WP:WHEEL in letter or spirit. Regardless, it seems awfully imbalanced to want to desysop her for undeleting articles that were never legitimate deletions to begin with. Hell, even I'm willing to give Doc and JzG a pass on the bad deletions regarding this extent, given that I have no question regarding their good faith in the matter... --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Due to wheel warring. Phil Sandifer 00:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Admins blocking Jeff admonished

20) The administrators involved in the block of badlydrawnjeff are admonished to show better judgment and do a more thorough job of seeking consensus for controversial decisions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

These people have already been rightly admonished by community consensus. What's the point in this. It was bad, we all agree. Arbitration is for what we disagree about.--Doc^g 00:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Balances previous remedy. Phil Sandifer 00:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, might it be worth including the words on-wiki in there somewhere? --YFB ¿ 00:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I think their actions would have been just as stupid had they been discussed on-wiki. Stupidity tends to be blind to its medium. Phil Sandifer 00:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

My point is that there was a strong consensus that IRC should never be used to decide blocks of established users. We have on-wiki venues specifically intended for that purpose, where the participation of non-IRC'ers might help to prevent knee-jerk groupthinking. --YFB ¿ 00:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, no, I don't think this goes far enough. It should also mention the problem of making such a decision off Wikipedia, and the failure to give warning first. Or at all. There are times when a block without a warning is appropriate, but I can't imagine it involving an established user. Mister.Manticore 01:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Policy development

21) The community is encouraged as a matter of priority to continue working to formulate additional relevant principles to be incorporated in Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons or a related policy so as to balance concern for the effect that Wikipedia articles may have on the well-being of their subjects with the desire for comprehensiveness in the encyclopedia. These issues may be addressed on policy pages or, in appropriate cases, in deletion debates or reviews.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. First sentence loosely adapted from the first remedy in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Protecting children's privacy. Newyorkbrad 00:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Speedy closures

22) Considering the "strict guidelines" of both WP:CSD, and WP:PROD concerning "speedy deletion"; XfD discussions, including WP:AFD and WP:DRV, should never be speedily closed with a result of Delete.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

I think a lot of the problems (though not all, obviously) could have been avoided if this had been clearer at the time. - jc37 01:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

This is clearly incorrect, or at least overstated: The community strongly (though admittedly not unanimously) approved of closing the Brian Peppers DRV early, and I don't think too many people thought ill of my summarily terminating Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Muslims involved in a crime. Newyorkbrad 01:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, since all of those examples would seem to be BLP examples, they could possibly fall under the proposal below? - jc37 01:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Precedence

23) Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard discussions supercede XfD discussions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

For a community so fearful of "instruction creep"... --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed more as a question of whether this is the case. - jc37 01:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Template

before using the last template please make a copy

24) {text of proposed remedy}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

before using the last template please make a copy

25) {text of proposed remedy}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

before using the last template please make a copy

26) {text of proposed remedy}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed enforcement

Template

1) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

3) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

4) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Analysis of evidence

Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

General discussion

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others: