Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

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CSD F2 applicable to DYK images?[edit]

See [1], [2] and recent Special:Contributions/Innotata @Innotata:

These local description pages all seem to involve DYK use, which per Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_44#Description_pages_for_Commons_images_-_F2 are specifically exempted from F2? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:01, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

This makes sense for featured pictures, but it really doesn't for DYK, since the whole DYK image tag and category system can be and has been replicated exactly on Commons - a number of images have only ever been tagged on Commons - and there's no need to keep a canonical list of past DYK images as there is for current featured pictures. In fact, most images featured on DYK today aren't tagged at all as it's become optional. —innotata 22:09, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Featured images can be marked as such on Commons, see c:Category:Featured pictures on Wikipedia, English. What's the difference? --Stefan2 (talk) 23:10, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, and some other language versions don't use local descriptions to tag featured media. However, with featured pictures the Commons tag doesn't work exactly the same way, and there's seen to be a need to categorise all featured pictures locally because their status as featured picture is ongoing; DYK images don't have any ongoing status, they can't be demoted. So there isn't any justification for the duplication of tags... —innotata 02:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Actually, thinking about it, why do I care anyway? It's only DYK, not anything important. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:26, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
  • DYK images are often loaded on Wikipedia and then cascade protected to prevent vandalism. Bu then after coming off the main-page they should be G6 deleted again. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

G4 and redirects[edit]

Per the evidence of G4 misuse identified above in relation to mojibake redirects (and confusion in an RfD a few days ago that it applied to redirects created at the same title as an article deleted at AfD), it might be worth clarifying in the criteria how G4 applies to redirects.

My understanding is that both the title and target need to be identical, or almost identical, to a redirect deleted at RfD. Different spelling errors, accents/ligatures/diacritics, phrasing, typos, etc. in the title means it is significantly different.

If an article is deleted under G4, redirects to it can be deleted under G10 G8 but not G4 unless the redirect was discussed independently of its target, no matter how many times the target has been deleted.

Redirects created at the title of a page deleted at AfD/MfD/TfD/CfD are not eligible for G4 speedy deletion unless there was active discussion of redirects in the XfD with consensus against redirecting it, and even then this does not apply if the redirect is created to an unrelated target.

I do not know how to condense this into something suitable for incorporation into the criteria. Thryduulf (talk) 22:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps this can be condensed to Redirects are only eligible for G4 if their title and target are exactly identical to the discussed redirect. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:50, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

  • That would leave some edge cases, e.g. when the target page is moved and the recreated redirect is pointed to identical content at the new target (either initially or by a double redirect being fixed), however they are unlikely to pose any significant burden on RfD, so its almost certainly an acceptable tradeoff for the unbeatable simplicity. Thryduulf (talk) 12:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • G4 already says it only applies to recreation of pages that are sufficiently identical to the deleted version. Neither a redirect created in place of an article nor a redirect that is similar to one that was discussed is eligible for speedy deletion under G4. If an admin does so, it's a problem with the admin, not with the criterion. Regards SoWhy 17:03, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
    • The problem is that the interpretation of "sufficiently identical" is being taken to include other redirects of the same type as some discussed at RfD (see the section above), which is wrong but understandable so some clarification is needed. Thryduulf (talk) 18:54, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • If an article is deleted under G4, redirects to it can be deleted under G10 G10? You mean G8 surely? Adam9007 (talk) 20:32, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
    • I do, yes. I knew it didn't sound quite right and should have checked why, sorry. I've corrected myself above. Thryduulf (talk) 21:28, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Your proposal is redundant; if either title or target is different from what was deleted before, it's quite obviously not a repost. There's no reason to tolerate G4 deletions of redirects in any other condition. Nyttend (talk) 01:36, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Why does G5 say "substantial edits" and G7 say "substantial content"?[edit]

Also, there is a very blurry line between minor copyediting and major copyediting with regards to G5. wumbolo ^^^ 16:48, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

The difference in wording reflects that the purposes of those two speedy criteria are different. For an article created by a sock of a banned user, we don't want to encourage that behaviour by leaving their articles in the mainspace. But this is not a strict obligation, and editors are allowed to argue that leaving the article would benefit the encyclopedia. Making substantial changes to an article, such as removing paragraphs of fancruft or adding references, is one way of doing that.
As for the fuzzy line between minor and substantial copyediting, if you're in doubt consider PROD or AfD instead of speedy. Reyk YO! 08:26, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
When it comes to speedy deletion (under whatever criterion), if you're not certain that something is deletable, then tagging something for speedy deletion is never appropriate. As Reyk says, if you're feeling that something is borderline, don't tag it. ‑ Iridescent 08:30, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Amen to that. Regards SoWhy 09:04, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

G13 for userspace drafts[edit]

Why do we delete these, anyway? Take your typical abandoned draft that's in a userspace sandbox: we might be deleting older (unrelated) content in past revisions, and I don't quite get the point. Why don't we just blank these pages instead? It's one thing to find blank pages in draftspace, mainspace, etc., but in userspace a blank page is perfectly harmless. (We already have an exception for blanking userspace pages: G7 cannot be applied to a userspace page merely because the creator blanked it.) Of course, if there's any problem with the content or the history, the situation's totally different; I'm only talking about deleting a page that qualifies for deletion only under G13. Nyttend (talk) 23:33, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

PS, if we just blanked these instead of deleting them, we could save a good deal of human labor. We currently have bots that tag G13 candidates; if we started blanking old userspace drafts, rather than deleting them, we could instruct the bots to do the blanking themselves, since (unlike deletion) anyone can reverse that kind of action, and a false positive won't have a significant effect as long as the bot's standard "you have an abandoned draft" message contains instructions on how to use the page history to perform a revert. Nyttend (talk) 23:36, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

So if someone wants to start another draft on the same topic, they keep the history that's unrelated to the current draft? That seems unnecessary. Natureium (talk) 00:43, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm not clear about your intention, so let me give an example. You create a page in your sandbox, you get tired of it, you blank it, you write a draft article in the sandbox, you submit it through the AFC process, and it gets rejected. You don't bother to do anything more with it, so after six months the bot tags it. Under the current system, the page gets deleted: not only the abandoned draft, but the other stuff too. If you'd just left it blank, you would have retained the old stuff, which is good if you ever want to go back and try again. Why delete it when blanking would work? Since I'm talking about content that doesn't warrant deletion under some other criterion, I can't see the benefit, especially as a bot could do the blanking without a problem because anyone (including the user who created it) can just put it back in the event of a mistake by the bot. Nyttend (talk) 02:23, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
I like this quite a lot, and think something like a pure wiki deletion system should work well in user space. The only downside I can see is that if all is done by bots, we lose an opportunity to let humans check whether the page should be deleted for a reason other than G13. But on the whole, if we can avoid going through WP:REFUND, why not? —Kusma (t·c) 05:18, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Because Wikipedia is not a free web host. Guy (Help!) 08:54, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
  • We do only delete via G13 drafts in userspace created by AFC, which I imagine likes to keep its pool of drafts clear of the garbage. Other drafts in user space must be processed through MFD. --Izno (talk) 13:19, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
    • Yes, but I'm not clear why you're saying that. I'm talking about blanking, rather than deleting, AFC-created drafts in userspace. And JzG, doesn't blanking generally suffice for enforcing NOTWEBHOST? For example, if you find that someone created a wiki-game page in userspace and then blanked it (a long time ago), and the page hasn't been edited since, would you be inclined to take the page to MFD? Nyttend (talk) 21:32, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
      • I'm making sure you're aware it's only AFC drafts in user space since we sometimes have a confused editor show up thinking it's any draft in user space. As for the why, here is the original RFC and here is the implementing RFC. Feel free to peruse. --Izno (talk) 21:53, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
        • I'm well aware of the origins of the criterion; if you peruse, you'll see that I participated in (and supported) the discussion that resulted in the creation of G13. So once again, why do you mention MFD, since it's totally irrelevant to the issue of G13-deleting-versus-blanking of AFC-process userspace drafts? And how is blanking a problem from AFC's point of view? Like deleting, blanking helps to clear the garbage from the AFC pool. Nyttend (talk) 22:19, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

I regularly blank useless AFC submissions in userspace. Most are so useless there is no point moving the page to Draft space. The current system of a bot listing the pages for action is better than the suggested blanking - which would result in most of this junk never beeing blanked. I am not sure what exactly is being proposed but it sounds like a move that would make cleanup less systematic. Legacypac (talk) 03:03, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Why would systematically blanking pages lead to most of them never being blanked? —Kusma (t·c) 08:45, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
There is no system to bring them forward after some time stale to be blanked. You are free to blank them of course but how will you find them? Also without G13 the official sanction to remove them is gone so you will face criticism for mass blanking by the process for process crowd. Also there are tens of thousands of problematic non AfC userspace pages that should be removed but very few editors work on them. Legacypac (talk) 08:52, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

G11s in Draft Space[edit]

I'm not sure if anything has changed or if I'm simply having more Drafts on my watchlist but I've been noticing a lot of Drafts deleted under G11. As a new page patroller I am no stranger to G11s and regularly use that tag myself. However I've now seen at least a couple occasions where there are good faith efforts at creating an article that are wiped away (or proposed to be wiped away) through G11. These articles certainly weren't ready for mainspace, but they weren't in mainspace they were in drafts and were going to have to go through AfC. Maybe they'd have been approved, maybe not, but I think something is off when these drafts are summarily deleted without any real chance to improve them. I am not in favor of saying no G11 for draft space at all but would love to see more editor caution in tagging drafts as such and admin in approving those tags. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:34, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I have seen cases (rarely though) where a draft starts out as promotional PR speak because that's the only text the author has just starting out, and then the draft is improved to the point where it becomes acceptable. In general I don't like seeing a G11 tag on an draft unless the draft has been around for a while and isn't improving. But early on in the life of the draft? No, not really. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:09, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
I have processed a lot of AfC submissions. Many of them are so clearly G11 I tag them immediately for deletion. Why waste volunteer time rereviewing spam? Legacypac (talk) 03:48, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
You're definitely an experienced AfC reviewer. But I think there's a big difference between a draft that has yet to be submitted or has been submitted once and one that has been declined a couple of times. Draft space should be, in my thinking, a place where articles can be incubated and improved; it's why we don't allow most speedy delete criteria and why we let drafts sit for six months before being deleted (maybe). Summary deletion feels different there than it does in mainspace where it harms the credibility of the encyclopedia. We invite editors of declined drafts to the Teahouse for a reason - the idea that a draft would need to be fundamentally rewritten to be accepted, which is the G11 standard, doesn't strike me as troublesome or a waste of volunteer time. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:00, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
I am also for applying a higher G11 standard for drafts. I know some of our AfC reviewers are on an anti-spam jag and are using G11 as part of this. I fear admins are not giving due considerations to WP:ATD for these drafts. No way for me to know though because deleted stuff is in a black hole. ~Kvng (talk) 03:52, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
A lot of Draft SPAM is created for the SEO benefits created by the links and mirrors. A Wikipedia link from Draft space is almost as good as from mainspace, and well meaning editors who promote keeping SPAM around in Draft are only facilitating the abuse of the site by Spammers. I'm a big advocate of promoting the less than perfect but notable pages for the big world of editors to work on, but the chances of either a disinterested or connected editor rewriting a topic that meets G11 are slim to none. Legacypac (talk) 07:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
How are SEO benefits achieved in these cases? I thought draft space is not indexed by Google and others, so links from there should not turn up? If there are really SEO benefits, maybe we can find a technical solution to prevent that, thus eliminating the incentive to create such drafts. Regards SoWhy 08:11, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
No index links are an important part of sculpting inbound link profiles for SEO. Been that way for a few years now. Legacypac (talk) 09:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Quite a lot of G11 spam in draftspace is lightly edited press releases, i.e WP:COPYVIOs; many or I'd say most are on non-notable topics anyhow; and for things that meet G11 criteria it is better to start anew. The main thing with spam is that even removing the buzzwords and making it not obviously spammy doesn't really fix the issue; it just hides it. To write a neutral article one must start with the reasonable intention of doing so with multiple independent and indepth sources. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:04, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. Many articles started and start out without sources and with POV language because they are oftentimes created by enthusiasts and fans that want to tell the world about how great this or that is. In many cases, we wouldn't have strong, well written articles if no one had started a bad article first that someone thought worth to improve or that the creator has later returned to fix when they gained more experience. Regards SoWhy 08:22, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes, this is broadly true. I would normally only go for G11 in draft where there is either sockpuppetry or COI/UPE. Guy (Help!) 08:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
COI/UPE is the root of nearly all G11 drafts. Random 3rd parties don't tend to create SPAM. Legacypac (talk) 08:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Certainly, articles without sources and issues of promotional or fan POV can become good, that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm more talking about articles like "Bizco provides the best furniture solutions..contact us at" sort of stuff, where it obvious the goal is to spam wikipedia, and not merely an enthusiast writing in a fan perspective; for those articles there is no value in their content because it is better to start afresh, and the editor is very unlikely to be able to rewrite that into something useful (if there is any utility there - the vast majority of companies spammed are not notable). I haven't really found in my experience, or at-least I can't recall any cases of merely an enthusiast or fan creating an article that meets the G11 bar and I'm not going to tag G11 things created by a fan, but most G11able stuff in draftspace is a obviously a COI or UPE editor spamming non-notable companies or similar Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Wasn’t there a consensus against COI/UPE being speediable demonstrated on this page earlier this year? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:27, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
    G11 has and still does require the text to be promotional, not the intent. What Legacypac probably means is that in many cases of COI/UPE, the text screams spam as well, thus making them eligible for G11 in general. Regards SoWhy 09:57, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I think all speedy deletion criteria (other than copyvios and G7s) should be applied in draft space with a very light touch. Certainly nothing in draft space should be tagged for G11 speedy deletion until the author has been given a chance to improve it (i.e. it's had a {{advert}} or similar on it for a month and the concerns have been explained on the talk page) unless there is evidence of bad faith (not suspicion, not absence of evidence of good faith) and . It is far, far better that we have a little bit of spam in draft space for a short while than we throw away good faith articles that start out spammy. Thryduulf (talk) 12:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
I've tagged several Drafts G11 just today. There is no point trying to get a spammer to rewrite their spam especially when the topic is unlikely to be notable anyway. I don't think anyone is throwing out good faith articles that start out spammy. I see plenty of G11 material just rejected and not CSD'd (on resubmission) and I personally only CSD the most clear cut cases, often after several rejections for being promotional. Legacypac (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I have tagged a number of drafts for G11 when they are very obviously never going to be accepted (eg: "Tyler-Courtney Jones is a 16-year old YouTube Instagrammer. He likes Ed Sheerhan and wants to grow up to be a singer like him. His songs are going to revolutionise the singer-songwriter industry, and he is absolutely and supremely confident he will be the next big thing. Tyler-Courtney's next shows are scheduled to be the Royston Vasey Youth Club and St Cuthbert's School for Boys Christmas fair") or a seriously bad idea to exist on Wikipedia full-stop (eg: "Crazy Maisie (b. Chardonnay Aimee Chavwick, 29 September 2001) is a political activist and adult actress who has defended the right of women in the porn industry. She has appeared in [big list of wholly inappropriate and NSFW titles]. She signed an exclusive deal with the Sunday Sport so she could pose nude on her 16th birthday" - with no sources outside two tabloid newspapers) ... anyway, you get the idea. These sort of instances are rare. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I've also noticed on quite a few occasions that spammers/UPEs were using draft space to duck autoconfirmed. They would create the article in ten edits, wait four days, and then promptly either copy and paste or move it to mainspace. Draft space is not for the storage of inappropriate material, including blatant ads. Seraphimblade Talk to me 13:35, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Seraphimblade, Can they play the same game in User space? ~Kvng (talk) 19:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes Legacypac (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Kvng, yes, and I've seen that done too. Fortunately, at least in the cases I saw, a patroller caught on when it got moved to mainspace and tagged it, but still better that it didn't happen at all. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
There are lots of ways a spammer can go to get auto or extended confirmed. Having a non-deleted record of their edits does help provide context when investigating someone for the non-admin among us. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Incubation of spam does not seem to be a compelling reason to use G11 in Draft space. What Legacypac said earlier about the noindex SEO loophole is the only strong argument I've seen here. Is it possible to work with Google to close that loophole in Draft space? Arguments about keeping Draft space tidy don't hold water for me because of G13. AfC has recently implemented a reject process which can kill zombie drafts. ~Kvng (talk) 17:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm probably one of the more prolific wielders of the G11 stick at AFC, I've tagged thousands of blatant WP:Vanispamcruftisement drafts, very few were turned down by the second opinion admins. Quite frankly this idea can only come from someone who has absolutely no clue at all about the meaning of the "Great Firehose Of Ordure (GFOO)" appellation. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:31, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
The last handful of drafts I tagged as G11 were Draft:Hannah Sneddon, Draft:Kimberly Minatti, Draft:Connor Murray and Draft:Maggie Claydon - all of which were deleted by other administrators. And as discussed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red, I'm currently doing a review of biographies of women to see if any declined drafts can be improved and expanded to the point of acceptance. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:38, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I do delete drafts under G11 but I try to apply a more lenient standard than I would in mainspace. I'd be happy with amending the policy to say something along those lines. Hut 8.5 21:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I use this also, and in fact I urge that it be used a little more. But as I understand it , the standard for promotionalism in Draft this has always been more permissive. Permissive as it may be, still some drafts are going to be complete advertisements, & suitable for deletion as G11. DGG ( talk ) 05:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Test case[edit]

I just started reviewing draft articles as part of AfC, and here are a couple test cases:

The first one is written by a SPA with two edits total; in the queue for 7 weeks; non-notable company & very promotional. Would you guys tag is for G11/A7? The advantage of tagging vs declining would be to take the draft out of the queue so that another AfC reviewer can move onto something else. The second draft is pretty much the same situation. None would survive AfD if moved to main space. I would appreciate feedback on these two items. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

  • HOLLA Group may well be notable. Look at the range of highly credible media coverage and the scale of the downloads they have had. I might approve it with a little more checking.
  • AIPES is an industry association with close ties to the EU and some sort of oversight or advisory role in the EU. Not really a commercial promotion situation, though associations do need to promote themselves to some extent. I'd want to see some independant coverage on them and a trim on the organization details before approving the page. It has promise. I would not tag either G11 - there are tons of better candidates for G11 in Draft. Legacypac (talk) 02:37, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree with K.e.coffman that HOLLA is not notable given lack of articles about it rather than product and my support of WP:INHERITORG as part of WP:NCORP. I would G11 in mainspace and decline in draft.
    I would not tag AIPES as G11 in either draft or mainspace and can find indicators of notability without too much trouble. If I found in mainsapce I would take a weed wacker to much of the article as not encyclopedic but depending on what a deeper investigation of notability uncovered either mark it as reviewed (or reviewed with a notability tag if I thought it a close call) or tag it with notability and leave it unreviewed. It's very unlikely I would nominate for AfD. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:49, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
There are preferred WP:ATDs for both of these. The idea that not deleting these clogs the AfC pipeline assumes that when declined, these will be be promptly resubmitted without substantial improvement. Sometimes that happens. Mostly the author either abandons or makes some improvements and not usually immediately. If resubmitted, it is not too much work for subsequent reviewers to look at the diffs and determine whether to quickly reject again or have a deeper look. This is not clogging, this is what we do at AfC, help authors improve their drafts. ~Kvng (talk) 01:24, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Neither are hopeless. HOLLA offers the choice of writing the article about the company or the product. A more knowledgable promotional editor would in fact have done it on the product, because in article space software is not susceptible to A7. It would be fairly easy to turn the present article into an article on the product, and the worst promotionalism could be removed. whether it will ever end up an acceptable article depends upon someone who knows and cares working on it. For now, it should get declined. the article on the organization is like many other similar ones: they are very hard to find sources for that pass NCORP, and they are hard to write non-promotionally without being directory entries. Sometimes they are kept at AfD nonetheless if the organization is sufficiently important. It should be declined, with a request for references and to tone down some of the claims of importance. G11 is for worse than these two--there enough of them to make it worthwhile to look at the new submissions, now that it is so easy to do so, and get the very worst out of the pipeline as soon as possible. In terms of the spammers, it can have a good effect to reject them as early as possible. DGG ( talk ) 05:27, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't think either of those qualifies for speedy deletion in draft space. While both have promotional wording it's not bad enough to avoid giving the author the benefit of the doubt in draft space. The second one is getting very close to the point where I'd be prepared to delete it in mainspace under G11 though, there isn't much text in it which isn't promotionally worded. This doesn't mean they should be accepted or moved to mainspace though. Hut 8.5 10:14, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

There seems to be consensus here that these are not great G11 candidates. I hear from other AfC reviewers that their G11 proposals rarely get kicked back by administrators. So, I'm interested to hear what our CSD administrators would have done if either of these had been tagged for G11. ~Kvng (talk) 14:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

  • Thank you all for the feedback; I will go ahead and decline the drafts on advertisement grounds. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:15, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Speedy deletion for circular redirect (WP:SELFRED)[edit]

Should this kind or redirect be given its own criteria (example)? A user created some of them only to make the link blue on 2014 Asian Para Games, main article. Hddty. (talk) 07:54, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

No. These are not speedy-worthy redirects. The links can be removed from the main article but these kinds of articles ("SPORT at EVENT") follow an established pattern and the creating editor probably just wanted to emulate this. Plus, those are redirects with potential, i.e. someone might want to create those sub-articles later. Regards SoWhy 08:11, 15 October 2018 (UTC)