Talk:Dhimmi

Miscellaneous

Would be grateful if anyone could write out the word in Arabic. 212.235.40.42 19:47, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Contributer Mustafaa did that.

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When the dhimmi concept was introduced in the 8th it was clearly very tolerant by the standards of the time. Christians and Jews were allowed to live in peace within the Muslim society. An excellent example is the Muslim state of Cordoba in Southern Spain where Christians and Jews prospered. Maimonides, by some considered the greatest Jewish philospher and Talmudic sage, lived here. As late as the 16th century, some argue that religious tolerance was the greatest in Europe within the Ottoman Empire.

That is incorrect. The Hellenistic Empire, Rome, The Ancient East (up until the Muslim invasion) have been all truly religiously tolerant, as they have not differentiated between the followers of one rite or another. This very nice tradition was broken by the Muslims, who essentially made a "convert or die" deal for most of the native population (pagans), and "convert or live like a dog" deal for Jews and Christians. Maimonides left a number of quotes, where he mentions the limitations he suffered from the Arabs, and the predominant anti-Jewish feelings. 1001 Nights are full of description how this or that (positive) hero steals holy books from Christians or Jews. As to the 16th century, they were still burning people in Europe. It's not too hard to be more tolerant than that.

The Muslims did not break this tradition. It was mainly caused by monotheistic religions, which by their very own nature are exclusive. The polytheistic (Pagan) religions before them assimilated gods from other faiths, or found equivalent ones. For example a Hittite goddesses from Syria were adopted by Ancient Egyptians. Jupiter was the equivalent of Zeus, ...etc. When Christianity spread, all this was reversed, and intolerance set in. The Jews attempted to annihilate Cannanites, Philistines and others because of religion (and land too!) Hypatia, for example, was dragged in the streets of Alexandria to her death by a Christian crowd, after many pagan temples were destroyed. To blame it on the Muslims or Arabs shows obvious bias, and lack of objectivity. As of "living like a dog", Christians and Jews continued to live for 14 century under Muslim rule, and their descendants exist up to today. They were neither assimilated, nor were under severe restrictions, otherwise, they would have either perished, or fled. -- Khalid B

Since when have the Roman or Greek empires been part of the 8th century??? Martin

Maybe the Eastern Roman Empire?

However, by the standards that have evolved in the Western world since the Enlightment, the dhimmi concept cannot be said to be fully tolerant. In the contemporary Western world, most would say that only complete religious freedom is acceptable. The dhimmi concept does not quite reach that target.

That's a gross underestimation. The Dhimmi concept is in effect, religious segregation of a very severe kind (akin to what the blacks had to face in the 1930s, on a racist ground). It is the definition of a failure to reach religious tolerance.

I'd like to hear your replies to this criticism. These paragraph need serious re-wording, before they can be put back in. --Uri

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from people of the Book

Where people of the Book live in an Islamic nation under Sharia law, they are forbidden from being considerd free and equal citizens. By Islamic law they can only liv if they submit to living as a dhimmi (second class protected citizen). Once they giv up equal rights, they are then given a number of rights by the Islamic community, such as the right to freely practice their faith in private. The people of the book had their own courts and jugdes but they could also choose to go to a Muslim qadi. The communities had local representatives, a role which was most often played by the bishop or patriarch. These were responsible for the tenure of the conditions of the contract - peace, obedience and order - between the Muslim ruler and the community. (Hourani, 1991) Dhimmis are also given additional responsibility and burdens, such as the payment of a special tax called jizyah ("skull tax"), but they are exempt from the zakat, the alms tax every Muslims has to pay. If Jews or Christians refuse to accept dhimmi status, the Quran holds that Muslims may declare war on them. Dhimmis were exempt from doing military service. "In the middle of the 19th century the 'protected minorities' were filled with dismay when it was suggested that they should share a common Ottoman nationality with the Muslims, since this would have meant liability for military service." (Gibb, 1968)

"By Islamic law they can only live if they submit to living as a dhimmi (second class protected citizen)" - is a completely cockeyed way of looking at it. What it amounts to is: people of the book, conquered by Muslims, were termed dhimmis, and the new government wasn't allowed to kill them unless they fought it, nor to suppress their religion. Same deal as with any other conquest, apart from the provisos preventing the conquerors from getting unduly nasty - and dhimmitude is not a "choice", but a legal classification. Oh, and "jizyah" does not translate as "skull tax"; it comes from the root jzy, meaning "portion". This source is obviously unreliable. - Mustafaa 07:44, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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I read somewhere that dhimmi status was extended to Hindus under the Mughals?? -- Davidme

I don't know whether it was, but considering the treatment meted out to the Hindus by the Islamic invaders, I doubt it made much difference

Yes, dhimmi status was extended to Hindus under the Mughals. Akbar abolished the Jizyah tax (among other things), and Aurangazb reinstated it later. There were often alliances between Hindu and Muslim segments of society against the Sikh state and later against the British colonial authorities. In the Indian Mutiny both allied against Britian, and it was even declared as Jihad by some, with Bahadur the last Mughal emperor as the (nominal) head of this rebellion -- Khalid B

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In the handful of Muslim countries which officially practice Sharia, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran,
Does Iran's Shiite Jafari system come under the "Sharia" tag?

Yes, it does. But they have their own separate interpretation of Islamic law -- Khalid B

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Marked muslims in Spain

Also, dhimmis were sometimes forced to wear distinct clothing, such as forcing all Jews to wear a yellow badge, a practice that was also done to Muslims under Christian rule in Spain.

Do you mean that Moriscos or Mudejars wore a yellow badge? When? I knew that they wore characteristic clothes, but my understanding is that they simply maintained their clothes, different from those of Christians. -- Error 01:12, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No, they did not wear it because they wanted to. There was an institutionalized dress code enforced, mainly by the Catholic Church and the Spanish monarchy. It was put into effect, and there were fines imposed if Mudejars wore dresses that they were not allowed to. Now, it could have been lax at time, and enforced at others, but it was there. Check "The Royal Treasure: Muslim Communities Under the Crown of Aragon in the Fourteenth Century" by John Boswell. p 32-33, 113, 330-333, and 399.

Some forms of oppression were designed to be obvious. The IV Lateran Council of 1215 had demanded. that all Christian monarchs force Muslims and Jews within their dominions to wear distinctive clothing, so they could be easily identified, and these demands were repeated by Honorius III and Gregory IX.(7) Spanish monarchs acceded to these without protest, and even added to them. Between the early thirteenth century, when the laws were enacted, and the mid- fourteenth, there were certain modifications in the efforts to make the Muslims distinctive. Originally Muslims and Jews had had to wear a distinctive outer garment like a cleric's cape, round and gathered, with a hood, and not striped, green, or bright red. They could not wear rings of gold or precious stones, and had to grow their beards long and cut their hair round rather than in Christian fashion. In the documents of the reign of Peter the Ceremonious there is no reference to distinctive clothing, though the allusions to the laws regarding hair and beard styles are numerous and varied. It appears, indeed, that either the laws were no longer enforced or that the wearing of the specified clothing had become so customary that infractions did not occur. At least two considerations give greater weight to the former possibility: (1) there is no reason to suppose the clothing would have become a part of Mudéjar life when the hair styles did not, and the many violations of the rules about the latter make it quite clear that they were not an accepted part of Muslim life; (2) of the Muslims emigrating from Valencia whose clothing was assessed as part of their departure fee, only a few are described as wearing either of the two articles of clothing supposedly required of Mudéjares. The penalty for being found abroad in violation of the distinctive appearance code varied extravagantly. From l347 on, all Muslims from royal jurisdictions could only be fined -- a maximum of one gold doublet -- for such infractions, while other Muslims found guilty of the same offense were sold into slavery. Conscientious nobles -- or those simply afraid of defecting vassals -- often applied to the king to have the privilege enjoyed by royal Mudéjares extended to their vassals. Sometimes the privilege was granted as a favor to the noble; others the Saracens themselves paid for it.

Also, note that the practice was not limited to Spain, but was more general than that, for example, Pope Innocent III in 1215 issued a decree as part of the Fourth Council of the Lateran that Muslims and Jews shall wear a special dress to distinguish them from Christians. Since Spain had the most Muslim minority, it was applied there more often. -- Khalid B

Thank you for the detailed explanation. -- Error 01:34, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You are welcome, Error. My pleasure indeed. It refreshes my memory to dig up info I read a long time ago. As you see, half truths are often repeated so much that they become accepted as facts, while they are not true. For example, differentiation in dress was not limited to Muslim lands, but practiced on Christian ones too, and condoned by the Church. It was a different time, differet standards, and we often fail to put things into their correct historical or social context. -- Khalid B

Funny, I was reading about Moriscoes and found that, in the 16th century, they were forbidden to wear their traditional dressing. -- Error 00:33, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No contradiction there. You may be confusing Mudejars (up to the conquest of Granada in 1492) and Moriscos (about 1500 on) (however note that treatment varied depending on where they were, and who ruled the area, ...etc. This is not a hard and fast rule). When they were Mudejars, they were still Muslims, allowed their own mosques, dress, butchers, marriage, language, ...etc. with many restrictions (marked dress, prohibited to call for prayer, carry arms, ...etc). When they were forcefully convered (started in the late 15th century), they were forced to confirm to everything Christian and not have any distinction. So the Arab dress, Arabic language, ...etc. were forbidden, not to mention Islam itself of course. In the mean time, there was another sort of discrimination that emerged. There was a big distinction between "old Christians" and "new Christians" (nuevo cristiano, converso, morisco, marrano), even in the church records that had births, baptisms, marraiges, and deaths by the 1550. When the time came for expulsion (1610), the new Christians were expelled, and were easy to indentify because of those records. They have been "identifiable" up to that time. So it all depended on the time period, the location and their status then. Makes sense? KB 14:49, 2004 Apr 14 (UTC)

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The references in the article are almost all anti-Muslim with bias showing all over. Bat Y'eor is an anonymous person taking a Jewish pseudonym, and her work has been shown to be strongly biased. Encyclopedia Judaica would hardly be a neutral source on Islam. Khalid Duran's book has been shown to be less than neutral, and also being funded by Jewish organizations with an axe to grind.

I added a reference from a respected contemporary Muslim scholar, Yusuf al-Qaradawi. Too bad the english translation of the book is not longer online after his site go reorganized.

I also added some quotes from it on whether a Muslim can be executed if he kills a dhimmi, showing the previous quotes to be one sided half truths intended to sway opinions in a certain direction. -- Khalid B

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Disputed sources and references

The neutrality of the links and references below are disputed

• Dhimmi: The Victims of Muslim Religious Apartheid
• The status of the Dhimmi: A critical perspective
• The Status of Non-Muslim Minorities Under Islamic Rule
• Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi, (NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 43-44.
• Bat Yeor, pp. 30, 56-57; Louis Gardet, La Cite Musulmane: Vie sociale et politique, (Paris: Etudes musulmanes, 1954), p. 348.
• Encycloapedia Judaica, Keter Publishing
• "Children of Abraham: An Introduction to Islam for Jews" Khalid Duran and Abdelwahab Hechiche, Ktav, 2001

In other words, anyone who speaks out openly about this discriminatory Muslim practice can not be trusted? Nonsense. These well-referenced and academic sources are only "disputed" by those who are embarassed by the existence of this heinous discrimination. Similarly, we can find some white people in the USA who who "dispute" sources about how black people were (are are treated) in parts of the USA. But that doesn't mean that the sources are wrong. It is a natural reaction to distrust critical academic sources which point out truths that are hard to accept. But here on Wikipedia we are obligated to do so, even if these truths make us feel umconfortable. RK

We find the same hard-to-accept truths in our discussions of Judaism and Christianity. I myself was accused of anti-Semitism, merely because I publicly wrote about the discriminatory way that some ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups treated their fellow Jews. My critics ignored the fact that my statements were provably true, and referenced from multiple academic sources, including sources from Orthodox Jews. The simple fact is that many people become uncomfortable with criticism of others within their own group, and thus we all have a knee-jerk reaction to say "This is a distortion" or "This is not NPOV". I used to feel (and say) the exact same thing myself. But I have come to realize that such analyses, when backed by reliable sources, are very often fair, accurate, and NPOV. RK 15:00, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

The accusation being made against these sources is not accuracy or inaccuracy (although that would certainly bear looking into.) It's neutrality. Citing "Bat Ye'or" on dhimmitude is like citing Lenin on the evils of Tsarism; both may well be right - and probably are most of the time - but their known agenda inherently renders them suspect, and there are perfectly good scholars out there with much less of a political agenda who should be cited instead. Failing that, what should be cited here are the original sources - the major works of Islamic law. Mustafaa 19:26, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just to add to Mustafaa's point: If the sources were a mix of Muslim and Non-Muslim, or biased and neutral ones, at least there would be some balance. But to have ALL THE SOURCES by people KNOWN to have an axe to grind with Islam and Muslims is single sided. When the sources are mainly anti-Muslim (Enc Judaica, Bat Ye'or [a pseudonym], anti Muslim web sites) or sponsored by anti-Muslims (e.g. Khaled Durran's history is less than agreable), there is something wrong here. And non of them are academic sources that stood up to fair peer review. I do not mind presenting a few sources that tell the other side, but for heaven's sake, some balance is required. I know it is difficult, specially on religious or political points in a wiki environment, but we should try. KB 14:49, 2004 Apr 14 (UTC)

I find the position of KB and Mustafaa to be ridiculous. By their logic, they would censor all articles on slavery because those against slavery "have an axe to grind"! This article is supposed to represent a number of different points of view, written in NPOV style. We don't censor major, widely-held points of view because we think that their view is not "balanced"! They admit that the facts are true, and they certainly widely held. So let us strive to incorporate these views into the article, and not make out Muslims to live in some fantasy-land where Jews and Christians were usually treated as equals. RK 19:38, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Apr. 23

I re-added the italicized portions here: "Christians and Jews who submitted to their rulers were allowed to live in peace within the Muslim society." Mustafaa deleted it arguing: " 'who submitted' is redundant; what state anywhere permits people to fight it?" I think this objection is irrelevant. Every state required submission on the part of conquered peoples, but this can't really be described as "peaceful" without a caveat. It's natural for people to not want to be conquered and to resist, so there has to be a threat of violence to keep them in line. The fact that this was true in other countries (the sentence immediately preceding in the article states that Muslim countries were relatively tolerant), does not make it any less true as regards dhimmis. - Nat Krause 07:11, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That assumes a situation where the dhimmis were conquered peoples; that was certainly true in many cases, but not all. For instance, the Sephardi Jews who took refuge in the Ottoman Empire were never conquered by the Ottomans; but the threat of violence if they were to rebel was still there, just as it was against any other rebels, Muslim or dhimmi. That's why I think it's superfluous: people who have not "submitted to their rulers" were (and are) subject to the threat of violence irrespective of their religion, in practically all countries. - Mustafaa 07:18, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think that, in regard to accuracy, it does not require that assumption. It's true that people who do not submit to their rulers are always subject to the threat of violence; therefore, it's never really correct to say without qualification that the people of a state live peacefully. In a lot of situations, this is kind of a theoretical point, because the people of a state tend to have a nationalistic loyalty to their government, so the threat is arguably unnecessary. The question here is relevance. In that regard, I am making the assumption you mention. I think this is reasonable because, while dhimmi status may have been applied to some immigrants, the mass of them in Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine, India, Europe, etc., were indeed descendents of conquered peoples -- the concept of dhimmi was originally invented to deal with these sort of conquered peoples. They were in a different position than, say, a Frenchman in France or a white American in the early US. In the old days it was very common, as the article makes clear, for people to conquer each other, but it is also common for conquered people to want to resist their rulers. - Nat Krause 15:44, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nationalism is in many ways a rather anachronistic construct for the medieval Middle East; even so great a medieval sociologist as Ibn Khaldun, though he accurately described tribalism - the prototype of nationalism - for Bedouin tribes, regarded any analogous phenomenon as an impossibility for city dwellers (of any religion.) And, while in the original case it was indeed Muslims who were the conquerors and not the conquered, that situation did not last long at all - for most of medieval Middle Eastern history (that is, most of the history of the dhimmi concept), the political scene consisted of various groups of Muslims (and non-Muslims - Crusaders, Mongols, etc.) conquering other Muslims. And rebellion certainly didn't take long to become a major part of Islamic history - see Kharijites, Shiites, Abbasids, etc... So the upshot is: for most of Islamic history, the possibility of rebellion - and its complement, the threat of violence - was as real with regard to the Muslim population as to the non-Muslim one. - Mustafaa 06:30, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nat, I think that Mustafaa has a point that the wording is too harsh. Perhaps something along the lines of "who resided in, and acknowledged the soverignty of, Muslim rulers". How about that? - KB 23:58, 2004 Apr 25 (UTC)

Mustafaa, I'm not sure I follow you. To say that the threat of violence "was as real with regard to the Muslim population as to the non-Muslim one" is irrelevant with regard to describing the condition of the latter. Given that Muslim vs. Muslim as well as Muslim vs. non-Muslim (and non vs. non) rebellion and fighting were a major part of history, if any thing this would emphasize the inaccuracy of saying that any of the subjects lived "in peace" without qualification. As for Kbahey's suggestion, since, in my opinion, the current wording is neither inaccurate nor misleading, I don't see the problem with it, but your version is pretty much "six of one, half-dozen the other". I'm not sure whether "sovereignty" is a relevant concept for pre-modern political structures, though. - Nat Krause 05:54, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How about ""Christians and Jews were allowed to live in peace within the Muslim society, on the condition (also required of Muslim subjects) of submission to their rulers." That highlights the point that this is even-handed - the medieval person wasn't a citizen, he was a subject... - Mustafaa 06:20, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. - Nat Krause 11:02, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Dhimmi's well-to-do?

One of the sentences apparently recently deleted by an anon, and then restored, stated "in reality, the average dhimmi in a Muslim state was more well-to-do than an average Muslim, a disparity that continues till today in many Muslim countries." What is the source for this claim? Jayjg 17:29, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Some issues to which I am not sure

Some of the information in this article appears to be incorrect but I can't get the references right now. I'll ask some body on net or at home to provide. Questions are

1. Some of the conditions here are not related to dhimmi law, but to pact of ommar which should be excluded in this context.
2. Some of these things are 'optional' in dhimmi law. Current text suggests that islam orders to put them but islamic goverment don't act on some of these.

I think these two need explanations.

Further I had personally heard a hadith a lot of time but was not able to find 'web reference' so I didn't go to put it. Now I have finally found the web references.

Who hurts a dhimi he hurts me, and who hurts me he hurts Allah [1]

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: (Whoever hurts a dhimi (a Jew or a Christian) he hurts me and who hurts me he hurts Allah)

[2]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: (Whoever kills an innocent dhimi (covenanted person) will not smell the scent of Paradise).

Problem is that a lot of islamic law is not online so I often know the book references but it is difficult to find equivalent web references.

Zain 22:05, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A dhimma is a treaty between Muslim conquerors and non-Muslim conquered. The Pact of Umar was the most famous of these, and the model for all others. Jayjg | (Talk) 00:49, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well answer is no. look up net for details.

Zain 21:42, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, your response doesn't make sense. Jayjg | (Talk) 23:48, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Pact of Umar

IMHO, we need an article on Pact of Umar: [3], [4] and this article needs a section/link to it.

• We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
• We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.
• We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.
• We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.
• We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.
• We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.
• We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear.
• We shall not adopt their kunyas.(the use of their epithets)
• We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.
• We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.
• We shall not sell fermented drinks.
• We shall clip the fronts of our heads.
• We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the belts round our waists.
• We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices in our churches in any manner offending the honor of the Muslims.
• We shall not parade carrying our palm branches [on Palm Sunday] or hold in public our Ba'ooth [Easter Monday's prayer]
• We shall not raise our voices at the burial of our dead.
• We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.
• We shall not take slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.
• We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.
• we shall not strike a Muslim.
• We shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims
• Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact.

Any good reason why this article doesn't list these obligations? Also, Umar II is totally silent on this. Why? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 17:57, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like you have some work to do. ;-) Jayjg ^(talk) 18:23, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

With regard to the second question, probably because, a. this pact was supposedly with Umar I, not II (contrary to a bunch of ill-informed Christian sites), and b. because historians take its attribution to him with more than a grain of salt anyway. - Mustafaa 00:19, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cf. your own cite, which speaks of Umar ibn al-Khattab. - Mustafaa

huh? Was it Umar II or Umar ibn al-Khattab? I have seen some claim that this pact was by Umar II, and others claims it was Umar ibn al-Khattab. If it's Umar II, then it has less significance (Umar II was just an Umayyad Caliph for three years). What he did or didn't do means very little compared to Umar ibn al-Khattab actions. OneGuy 03:11, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In the Etymology section, shouldn't something be said about dhimma or contract governing the dhimmi's servitude? (See Bernard Lewis link) Nobs 15:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Dhimmis in Islam vs. minorities in non-Muslim societies

Before this article is submitted to peer review or better again, it would need at least a nod at the history of Muslim-Christian relations in Ethiopia. While there were some admirably harmonious times (e.g. the king of Axum who gave sanctuary to Muslims during the first persecutions in Mecca & Medina), there have also been some very rocky times, where neither side came out well. -- llywrch 23:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

" This rule applied to all people, not only dhimmis, but as Dhimmis did not worship in the Mosque in modern terms it can be seen as unfairly discriminatory."

What possible justification could there be for inserting the sentence "This rule applied to all people, not only dhimmis, but as Dhimmis did not worship in the Mosque in modern terms it can be seen as unfairly discriminatory." into a description of dhimmi restrictions? As far as I can tell it is pure original research. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:00, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

This article is an inaccurate JOKE

The article fails to mention what Dhimmitude is designed to do - slowly strangle out non-Muslim religions.

It does this by:

1. - Jizya tax, discriminatory tax (mentioned).
2. - Prohibition on Muslims converting away to other religions (Death Sentence for Apostasy, not even mentioned).
3. - Prohibition on building new non-Muslim houses of worship or expanding existing ones. (not even mentioned).
4. - Prohibition on public signs of non-Muslim worship:

-Non-Muslim houses of worship cannot display symbols of their dieties.

-Non-Muslims may not pray in public where Muslims could hear them.

-Non-Muslims may not sell non-Muslim books to Muslims

-Non-Muslims may not invite Muslims to join them for worship.

The article also fails utterly to mention the similarities between Dhimmitude, Apartheid, and Jim Crow.

Someone should fix this. But it won't be me, because a POV pushing jerk has been stalking my Contribs and would start off a RV war if I tried. KaintheScion

I put in the edits, only to see your POV pushing jerk (I'm assuming you're referring to Yuber, right?) come by and wipe them clean without any mention in this discussion section. Though looking at his past contribs, he'll likely scream "reference reference reference" over every letter in the edits, since that's his POV-pushing MO. If he RV's it again I'll have to report him for vandalism yet again. ElKabong

References are good; if you can provide them, then he won't be able to revert so easily, will he? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:25, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

True, but Yuber routinely takes it to an obscene level - look at his Talk:Saudi Arabia nonsense about whether or not Iran was the "only" Islamic country with religious police for a pretty good example of his MO.

Relatedly, I left out the mention of "slowly strangl[ing] out non-Muslim religions" because I was 100% sure that would be interpreted as POV and cause a revert war. ElKabong

Yes, he does that, and then makes his own claims based on no sources at all, or on sources that have no backup for his claims. Nevertheless, sources are crucial for preventing him (and others) from reverting your edits. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:50, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

ElKabong is just a sockpuppet of KaintheScion. As Jayjg has so wisely said before, sockpuppets should just be ignored as they are a waste of time.Yuber^(talk) 23:20, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

• Questions for you Jaijg:

1. - Why did you remove the sentence regarding comparisons to other oppressive systems?
2. - Here's your references for the Saudi portion:

40 Christians Arrested in Saudi Arabia for Religious Activity By Saudi Religious Police: 'For Trying to Spread the Poison and their Beliefs' Saudi Arabia's religious apartheid I am putting the section back. It is both factual and relevant. ElKabong

Where is the source that says non-Muslims are considered dhimmi under Saudi law, and that is why they are treated this way? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg, why don't we go straight to the horse's mouth on the matter? Speaking of which, I forgot one other prohibition: non-Muslim males may not marry Muslim females, but Muslim males may freely marry non-Muslim females. KaintheScion

Why don't you quote them talking about dhimmis? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Maybe because the page linked does not use the word "dhimmi"? —Charles P. (Mirv) 03:36, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Some aspects of Dhimmitude also apply in other Muslim nations; the Coptic Christians have such a situation in Egypt

Who says that the situation of the Coptic Christians in Egypt is one of "dhimmitude", rather than garden-variety repression of a religious minority? Do they pay the jizyah? Are they not allowed to build churches? Are they prohibited from riding, or do they face extra restrictions on carrying weapons? Are they not allowed to proselytize? What aspects apply, exactly? —Charles P. (Mirv) 23:09, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Yuber, I didn't mean to revert your edit. I was removing a dubious addition (the italicized sentence above) and since I was reverting, didn't hit an edit conflict. —Charles P. (Mirv) 23:12, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah sorry, I edited over yours because I wanted to keep some things that were proposed earlier while keeping the statements about how enforced restrictions were.Yuber^(talk) 23:14, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Kharaj

much discussion moved to Talk:Kharaj.

Slavery

Yuber: Here's the source [5]; I don't know if it reads in English for you, let me know and I will provide an English language transcript. Where do you want it posted? Nobs 02:59, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there something about Kharaj in there because I really don't want to read through 10 different sections of that site, especially since the headings of the sections are very POV and demeaning.Yuber^(talk) 03:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

In the background section I'd like to insert (1) Historical instances: "Disobedient or rebellious dhimmis were reduced to slavery—that is, if their lives were spared—and prisoners captured in jihad were also enslaved if they could not be exchanged or ransomed. In 781 7000 Greek prisoners of war were enslaved after a battle at Ephesus. At the capture of Thessalonica in 903, 22,000 Christians were sold into Muslim slavery. The same happened in 1064 in Georgia and Armenia. In Africa Arab rulers regularly raided sub-Saharan black tribes and captured slaves, claiming their raids to be jihad; many Hindus were enslaved on the same pretext." (2) Doctrinal basis: "The Koran recognizes the basic inequality between master and slave, and the rights of the former over the latter (Kuran, 16:71; 30:28). The Kuran assures the Muslim the right to own slaves (to "possess their necks") either by purchasing them or as bounty of war (58:3). Its author, Muhammad, had dozens of them, both male and female, and he regularly sold, purchased, hired, rented, and exchanged slaves once he became independently wealthy in Medina after the confiscation of Jewish property. The bounties are lawful to the Muslim, theologian ibn Timiyya wrote, and slavery is justified: "It is lawful to kill the infidel or to enslave him, and it also makes it lawful to take his offspring into captivity" (Ibn Timiyya says,Vol. 32, p. 89). In line with the racist views of Muhammad about his own people, the Arabs, as "the nobles of all races," they were exempt from enslavement (Ibn Timiyya states,Vol. 31, p. 380)."

Professor Srdja Trifkovic has the requisite credetentials. Nobs 03:11, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Professor (what's his degree in, by the way?) Srdja Trifkovic is a right-wing crank, as the fact that he writes for Chronicles might indicate. This is quite beside the point, though: this is not an article on the history of slavery under Islam, so all but the first two clauses of this addition are entirely off the topic. —Charles P. (Mirv) 03:15, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Nobs, the next time Yuber pulls this bullshit, report him for his vandalism. He's getting beyond ridiculous. Must be taking kitman and taqiyya rather seriously. KaintheScion

What made you assume that I am shi'a and therefore believe in taqiyya? The shia users on this encyclopedia would be offended by that remark.Yuber^(talk) 03:29, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I am certain the events of Ephesus 781 Anno Domini or C.E. or whatever the concensus is will stand up, as will Thessolnica 903 CE and Armenia 1064 CE; as will the Koranic citations without Prof. Trifkovic's help. Point is only dhimmi's can be taken into slavery, non-Muslim's are exempt (i.e. the racial nature of the institution). Nobs 03:25, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

All dogs are mammals; Socrates is a mammal; therefore Socrates is a dog. You seem to be confusing "dhimmi" (non-Muslims living within an Islamic state) with "non-Muslims" (self-explanatory); all of the former are necessarily the latter, but not all of the latter are necessarily the former. —Charles P. (Mirv) 03:42, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

duh, Muslims I guess I meant to say. Sorry, my parents were cousins. Nobs 03:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Muslims I guess I meant to say—I thought as much. This doesn't change the fact that the enslavements mentioned—Greeks in the 8th and 10th centuries, Armenians and Georgians in the 11th, and sub-Saharan Africans whenever—have nothing to do with the topic of the article. Unless those areas were at the time part of an Islamic state, which they weren't, their inhabitants could not be considered dhimmi. —Charles P. (Mirv) 03:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Restrictions on Dhimmis

Jayjg, all of the restrictions I repaired from Yuber's vandalism were sourced; why did you remove them? KaintheScion

Which sources did the come from, the ones I provided? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

links removed

KainTheScion/ElKabong reverted my removal of these links, so here's a more detailed explanation than can fit in an edit summary:

• http://www.iis.ac.uk/glossary/glossary_hk.htm addresses kharaj, so I moved it there.
• http://www.wm.edu/so/monitor/fall2000/paper7.htm is an undergraduate essay that cites a grand total of two sources, one of which is already referenced in this article, and in at least one instance (endnote 26) does so erroneously: Lewis doesn't mention the kharaj on any of the pages cited. Surely we can do better than this.
• http://www.churchisraelforum.com/the_dhimmi_jews_and_christians_under_islam.htm is an essay from the personal website of a random Baptist minister whose importance is not apparent, though his Christian Zionist agenda is. He cites a single source—Ye'or—which is, again, already mentioned in this article. Surely we can do better than this.

KainTheScion/ElKabong might wish to read Wikipedia:Reliable sources before readding these links. —Charles P. (Mirv) 04:54, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Disagreement

Mirv, please stop doing that. The wording "This right does not exist in some countries which enforce dhimmitude" is no different than the wording "this was not always respected" under the "right not to be enslaved." [personal attack removed]. ElKabong

True, after the enumeration of the right not to be enslaved, a concrete example (the devshirmeh) illustrates how the right was not always respected. Feel free to provide a similar example for this point: which countries did not allow choice of religious leaders and when? —Charles P. (Mirv) 15:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

In that case ElKabong's edit - which turns the fact that Saudi Arabia does not honor this into an example - is the correct edit.

Or might be, if Saudi Arabia actually were an example. - Mustafaa 21:37, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

SA is a perfectly legitimate example or the text you reverted TO would not list it, Mustafaa. ElKabong

No it isn't. As that text correctly notes, in SA the point is moot. - Mustafaa 22:52, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

(Mustafaa beat me to it) Saudi Arabia is not a good example: non-Muslims are not allowed to live within the state and practice their religion under leaders chosen by the Muslim authorities, they are not (in theory) allowed to practice their religion at all, under whatever religious leaders. Now, if an Islamic state exists (or existed) in which dhimmi were allowed to live and practice their religion, but were not allowed to choose their own religious leaders, that would be a good example. —Charles P. (Mirv) 22:57, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Charles, having been to the KSA, non-Muslim visitors to the kingdom ARE treated as Dhimmis but are denied the right to choose their own leaders in the kingdom. It is a good example. Enviroknot

If they were treated as dhimmis, they would have religious leaders to be chosen. Also, they would pay jizyah. Do they? - Mustafaa 00:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

This is an obvious POV. Dhimmis do not exist anymore. The foreign workers in Saudi Arabia are anything but Dhimmis. They live in gorgeous multi-million dollar compounds and are protected by the state. See Dhahran for an example. Also, am I being too hasty when I assume that Enviroknot is just another one of the many aliases of ElKabong/KaintheScion/Yhulkop?Yuber^(talk) 00:05, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Military

It is well-documented that non-Muslims who served in the military were exempt from Jizyah.Yuber^(talk) 22:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

IF you can source that, yuber, put it in. In the meantime, stop reverting without cause, and ESPECIALLY check for other edits. Your revert was a violation of policy. ElKabong

I've already sourced it many times, Kain/Yhulkop/whatever other sockpuppet you use now. It is also in the jizya article. Here is the exact quote:

"Thomas Arnold states that the jizya was exempted from those non-Muslims who served in the Muslim army: "such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajimah, a Christian tribe in the neighbourhood of Antioch, who made peace with the Muslims,promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizya and should receive their proper share of the booty. When the Arab conqu"[6]Yuber^(talk) 23:01, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Er, Islamic states regularly recruited non-Muslims, especially for wars against other Islamic states: cf. Mamluk, janissary, saqaliba. —Charles P. (Mirv) 23:14, 25 May 2005 (UTC)~

What does that have to do with jizya? His single claim was about jizya, not the Turkish janissaries or the mamelukes. Mamelukes were actually slaves that later took power and formed their own dynasties.Yuber^(talk)

Also, mamelukes were all converted to Islam, which makes them non-Dhimmis. I don't really think the janissaries qualified as dhimmis either, but I still added a reference to them in the article.Yuber^(talk) 23:50, 25 May 2005 (UTC)