Talk:Herbal medicine

Edits on Herbal Tea

For reference, the lengthy edits by 88.109.221.218 on Herbal Tea were made by me. I forgot to sign in :P Feel free to improve them; I am not an expert, just someone with "a little knowledge" Bards 16:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I am moving the "how to" section to a different page called Herbal Administration to allow a more concise article. The essential oil section was moved too, since it contains good information although strictly speaking an essential oil is far from an herb. Moving this section was discussed previously. KSVaughan2 19:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Portal?

This seems like it could be part of a portal or a series.

What exactly is that and how would it be started? I would like to start a Wikipedia Herbalism project, with information added to plant pages, biographies of herbalists, living and dead, topics on herbalism, botanical medicine, pharmacognosy and natural products, and phytochemistry. Don't know how to start one. KSVaughan2 20:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Scientific herbal medicine

As of 9 24 05 the first paragraph is incorrect. There is also scientific herbal medicine. See for example:

Evidence-based herbal medicine edited by Michael Rotblatt, Irwin Ziment.  
Philadelphia : Hanley & Belfus, c2002.

How many pages has that book? JFW | T@lk 17:08, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Dr Wolff - about 300 pages (why?). I also highly recommend Herbal and traditional medicine : molecular aspects of health, edited by Lester Packer, Choon Nam Ong, Barry Halliwell. New York : Marcel Dekker, 2004 - about 1000 pages. I do not object to this herbalism page as a page on folk medicine. The problem is that "herbal medicine" redirects to "herbalism". We should make "herbal medicine" a seperate page that describes a form of scientific medicine, with a link to this "herbalism".

My response was a bit tongue-in-cheek. The evidence base for herbal medication is fairly slim, and sometimes completely absent (e.g. echinacea for common cold). JFW | T@lk 07:40, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

So called Scientific herbal medicine really isn't herbal medicine at all, it is the allopathic use of herbs to treat symptoms. And using herbs to treat diseases allopathically is nothing new, it is the way that standard medicine is practiced in much of the world and was practiced in the US until around WW2. Herbal medicine in the traditions I have studied is constitutional, with the patient rather than the disease at the center: A unique herbal prescription is made which strengthens the patient's weaknesses so that the disease can be thrown off. So instead of focusing on a cough with expectorant herbs, one strengthens the lung and immune function (while perhaps also using antimi<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Lupin/navpop.css&action=raw&ctype=text/css&dontcountme=s">crobial and expectorant herbs.) After all you never treat a disease without a patient attached. However since the so-called scientific or "evidence-based" herbal treatment exists, I started a section on it.KSVaughan2 19:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Medical interaction

Can we remove the "doctors are stupid" part? And maybe add back in the wikilinks that have been removed?
brenneman^(t)(c) 23:23, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

In thoery it might be better to reword it to something along the lines of "herbalists try and defend themselves by pointing out etc etc" but I don't really have the energy to do anything about that.Geni 07:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Math illiteracy

British Medical Journal pointed out, "Even though herbal medicines are not devoid of risk, they could still be safer than synthetic drugs. Between 1968 and 1997, the World Health Organization's monitoring center collected 8985 reports of adverse events associated with herbal medicines from 55 countries. Although this number may seem impressively high, it amounts to only a tiny fraction of adverse events associated with conventional drugs held in the same database." (BMJ, October 18, 2003; 327:881-882).

Sorry, but the BMJ should re-visit their applied statistics. Those numbers are meaningless in supporting the conclusion suggested (Hint: the operative word here, ppl is 'reported'.) I suggest this paragraph be removed.--Miikka Raninen 19:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

--It doesn't say 'reported' it says WHO collected reports from 55 countries. these could be official reports rather than personal reports. Although it's not specifically stated in this excerpt which it is, I would assume the first unless I had good reason to believe otherwise considering that it's the World Health Organization and British Medical Journal. Something tells me they just might know how to conduct research. 'reports' could mean any number of things[it's the word that the article used, not the official breakdown of the study), I don't think it proves bad research.

concerning Medical interaction

The part relating to the JAMA article is totally irrelevant to herbalism. ADR is not a feature of herbalism i am not conscious of any article assessing its danger and the warning just before is good enough, so I believe this should simply be ommitted, and possibly replace by some relevant source of information.

Plural of "Shaman"

I actually suspect the plural of "shaman" to be "shamans," though I realize this is really a marginal point.--TurabianNights 19:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't actually think there is a standardized plural 82.176.194.151 11:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"Shamans" is the correct English plural.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/47/S0314700.html

http://www.bartleby.com/61/46/S0314600.html

The dictionary is your friend. -- Writtenonsand 00:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Cumin and dill

I added "purported" to the phrase "medicinal features of cumin and dill" because there's no evidence in this article or in the articles on those two plants that they have any real medical value. If anyone knows what the illustrated book or any other traditional sources have to say on the subject, that would be interesting to have added in the appropriate places. -- Beland 22:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted "purported" because their medicinal properties are well established within every major herbal tradition that uses them, including ayurveda, tcm, and unani, as well as countless folk herbalists throughout eurasia. Depending on the information you want, much of the information is easly accessible on the web, including pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi), dr duke' database (http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/) - just search under dill or cumin, or their scientific binomial. Wikiherbal 23:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)wikiherbal

I would suggest that the Iranian medical indexes be consulted as they also have a wide variety of papers on the medicinal features of these herbs (in English.) KSVaughan2 19:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

possible edit?

"and there is no official system, database, or hotline to report and publish adverse reactions." doesnt the FDA have a system for reporting adverse reactions to dietary supplements?

This may be so in the US however in the UK the various professional bodies (NIMH, EHPA) have had a system in place for some time now. Herbal medicine in the UK is undergoing statutory regulation at the moment and recording of adverse reactions of herbal medicine is on the government agenda. However the majority of herbal medicine use tends to be in the form of traditional medicine in developing countries where there are no systems to record adverse reactions. (NEV)

Merging Herbalism and Herbal Suppliments

I do not thing it is wise to merge the "Herbalism" page with the "Herbal Supplements" page as the two are not causally linked. One may be an herbalist, for example, while holding strong beliefs against Herbal Supplements of any kind. In fact, some would argue that the use of Herbal Supplements is oppositive to the use of Herbs.

How would herbal supplements be oppositive to the use of herbs, might I ask? bibliomaniac15 19:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The reason is that some herbalists practice a form of herbalism that requires the patient to connect with herbs on a physical level, even picking it themselves and preparing the remedies - it is thought by many herbalists to be an intrinsic component of the practice. As well, herbal supplement companies usually don't employ actual herbalists, nor follow traditional indications and contraindications for many medicinal plants, and are seen as quite simply as a corporate takeover of what is actually held in common, by all people. Wikiherbal 04:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)Wikiherbal

I'm totally for it--Havermayer 06:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree that herbal supplements mst be merged with it becauase the latter are, after all, a crucial part of the former. -- HEMRAJ

I disagree with merge as herbal supplements tend to be commercial products, manufactured and marketed by the health food industry for sale in retail outlets to the general public, also it is not uncommon for herbal supplements to be standardised to contain certain levels of purported active phytochemicals. Herbalists on the other hand do not necessary have anything to do with herbal supplements. Certainly within the UK herbalists tend to purchase their herbs from specialists suppliers, these herbs are not intended for sale to the public and are rarely marketed or standardised. In addition people in the developing world still rely on traditional herbal medicine. I confidently speculate that traditional healers rarely purchase herbal supplements but rely on herbs hat they have gathered themselves. (NEV)

I agree the merge, the article would benefit from the added content.Mighty Ozymandias 01:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Merge them. --Havermayer 15:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with merger, as the supplements page does not have sufficient content to merit an article at present, but could be kept as a Redirect with possibilities. --apers0n 17:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Reluctantly. Because there isn't enough body for Herbal supplements and Medical herbalism, merging might make the sum of the parts greater. Let's add them to Herbalism as sub after the [Popularity] section. --Travisthurston 06:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Done - but left as a redirect with possibilities,[1] so that it can always be reinstated if the amount of material relating to herbal supplements gets enough for it to warrant a whole article.- I have taken the above to be 7 in favour and 2 against, but have taken the views expressed above and added them to the new subsection under the heading of Types of herbal medicine - please expand this section and if there is anything else useful from the former article here please add it to the current article on Herbalism. --apers0n 12:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

You're awesome! --Travisthurston 17:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to say- there is a saying that if you get any 5 herbalists into 1 room you will get at least 7 opinions. We cannot limit the field of herbal medicine by pretending that part of it doesn't exist. I prefer medicine that I pick myself or that I have direct knowledge of the individual who harvested or grew the herb, but some herbs (eleutherococcus for example) are not well grown where I live (it is strongest when grown at elevations above 6000 feet and I live slightly below sea level). Am I not an herbalist because I want to give my patients the benefits of a world that has grown (pun intended) small and intimate with technology?...Anna Abele, ND 05:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)Anna Abele, ND

Merger with Medical herbalism

The Medical herbalism article is a stub, and based on English terminology and training. It could be incorporated into the Herbalism article to make one broader article with a worldwide view. --apers0n 12:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Like it. --Travisthurston 06:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion to split section on herbalists to a new page

The section listing herbalists could be made into a new page List of notable herbalists, or be added to the List of famous people in alternative medicine. Alternatively the Category:Herbalists could take this section. Comments? --apers0n 18:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Would be nice. This will give room for the mergers too... --Travisthurston 06:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Not really enough people here to make a stand-alone list article yet, unless someone wants to add them to the existing List of famous people in alternative medicine. I've added everyone to the Category:Herbalists for now. --apers0n 13:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Neanderthals!

I took this out of the main article since I think its wrong: "There is evidence that suggests Neanderthals living 60,000 years ago in present-day Iraq used plants for medicinal purposes (found at a burial site at Shanidar Cave, Iraq, in which a Neanderthal man was uncovered in 1960. He had been buried with eight species of plants). "

Introduction

Made a couple edits to the first part, namely herbal medicine is a practice, not an idea; secondly, shamans and herbalists are not synonymous - the role of spiritual healers and herbalists often overlap, but do not necessarly cover the same scope of practice. A shaman mediates the relationship between the human community and the natural world, whereas herbalists simply use herbs as healing agents. Wikiherbal 04:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)wikiherbal

Suggestion to delete "Examples of herbal medicine"

It has been suggested that this section should be harmonised with the "List of Medicinal Herbs" page. But this will result in much duplication and difficulties in keeping the two harmonised. I propose that this section is exported wholesale into the "List of Medicinal Herbs" page, and deleted from the main article. The main article can be reserved for overviews, methodology, issues, etc, with examples of herbs within the text where appropriate. Bards 21:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, not a suggetion to delete, but black cohosh has been proven not to be a phytoestrogen!!!! get it out of there.Anna Abele, ND 05:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)Anna Abele, ND

Phytoestrogens:

There are many phytoestrogens, but black cohosh isn't one of them. Soy is the most common, red clover, licorice, anise etc.. Maybe we should talk about estrogenic activity (black cohosh has plenty), where phytoestrogens are concerned though- please don't list a known non-estrogenic compound!! Anna Abele, ND 05:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)Anna Abele, ND

I have no expert knowledge of that Anna. If you are certain of it, go ahead and edit it. It's not for me to decide! Bards 14:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

the thoughts that this so called man was buried with herbal medicines has been completely dissmised by most scientific laboratorys

Mixing of herbs:

side-effects is confusing when associated with an ailment- usually used to describe undesirable effects of a medicine.

I think herbs are used and chosen based on effects desired. Are side effects appropriate when discussing a substance that has not been intentionally engineered for a specific purpose (as far as we know)?

The art of herbal medicine is to take substances (plants) with many effects and use them to the best advantage of our patients. Eg. There are many estrogenic herbs, but anise is also carminative, so if you have menopause and gas it is your best bet. There are thousands more examples in this vein. They are not side effects in my opinion, but guides for which of the hundred of herbs that are available world wide for any given condition that we should use to help you.

Anna Abele, ND 06:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)Anna Abele, ND

Long lead

Just wandered by and noticed that the lead on this page is really long (see WP:Lead), and seems to kind of meander a lot.--Margareta 02:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Article Length

I realize Herbalism is a very broad topic, but I feel the content needs to be further revised and shortened considerably. As the commenter above mentioned, the introduction is daunting on first appearance. I suggest completely removing certain sections from the page, and instead include reference links to this removed information. 74.120.67.135 03:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Types of Herbalism

I added references to Ayurveda, TCM, Cherokee medicine, Unami and the Triune formulation since the Wise woman/ heroic is not a sufficient recap. Ksvaughan2 20:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Heavy metals "therapeutic"?

There's a claim on the page that heavy metals "may be processed in such a way as to inactivate negative aspects". Unless by "processed" they simply mean "removed", this is wholly unsupported by any evidence - there is no scientific evidence demonstrating a particular way to "safely" consume lead, arsenic, cadmium, etc. - and should be removed from the article. --Soultaco 05:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually there is some evidence in Indian medical literature using the samskaras that heavy metals can be substantially inactivated. There is double blind research cited on the rasayanas page. Ayurvedic doctor Alan Tillotson found people in Nepal who had worked for 40 years processing mercury according to samskaras and were none the worse for wear. They were dismissive of the idea that all forms of heavy metals or other toxins could not be inactivated. www.oneearthmedicine.com KSVaughan2 19:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Perfect. Let's just fill kids with mercury, lead, and other heavy metals. No, not my kids, your kids. This is the worst recommendation. Orangemarlin 00:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I notice that the processing is called alchemical processing. Wow it sounds so advanced and modern. Is there any research that supports this claim?--Filll

I am not even going to bother discussing this further. I notice it's been deleted, so this article is slowing being improved. At least no one will die reading it, thinking that drinking a cup of mercury, a few hibuscus flowers, and downing it with homeopathy water will cure their cancer. This article needs further cleaning up. Every reference I read that was in here indicated that using the products had no effect whatsoever. I should have left the references, and put the negative statement in there. But heavy metals? Who thought that was a good idea. And these people who did were none the worse for wear? I swear cigarette smokers say that all the time. Orangemarlin 00:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Chemistry

I am not sure there should be in the introduction to this article any mention at all of chemistry. Herbal medicine does not need to pander to chemistry in any way whatsoever; it stands as an ancient and noble empirical science in its own right for thousands of years before chemistry was even invented. So why mention chemistry? isn't it a tad deferential? thank you Peter morrell 15:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure how to take the above post. Do we not want this article to be a verifiable, reliable source of information? There are many many commercial sites that have all kinds of unverified and unverifiable natural medicine claims. However, Wikipedia should be adhering to encyclopedic standards. And that means applying our best scientific knowledge to the article. What is wrong with chemistry? Even the "natural" herbal products are complicated cocktails of chemicals. Chemistry is everywhere, and if we know a bit of chemistry that is relevant to a given medication or treatment, then we should reveal it. It is far better than the several references in the text to alchemy. --Filll 21:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Science? Pseudoscience or junk science, since it meets all of the standards of pseudoscience, including:

1. The use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims.
2. Over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation
3. Lack of openness to testing by other experts
4. lack of progress
5. Personalization of issues (ancient and noble? you mean like astrology, alchemy, creationism, and attachment therapy?)

I realize that some plant material has had some effect on humans. But that requires a double-blind, scientific study and analysis--otherwise, people get sicker because they don't get appropriate treatment. Orangemarlin 07:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

References

As in, where are they? For instance: High quality trials involving proper controls and double blind methods are being increasingly carried out, with many useful results. Got some examples?

This whole article, reads like an add, or one of those magazines you see in supermarkets by the register. Oh, and I'll let you guys in on a little secret... there's no such thing as "Western Medicine", there are doctors in china, india, south east asia et al, who practice it, and they just call it medicine. ornis 15:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

There are none. Where it has been done, where safety and efficacy have been established, they are sold either as prescription or approved OTC products. The very rare instances where herbal products have actually shown efficacy are now on the market. There may be more, but may be is not science. Orangemarlin 18:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

That's what I suspected, anyway I've removed it now, but the point remains this article is in dire need of referencing. ornis 20:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I had to slap a neutrality and factual accuracy tag on this article. After reviewing the list of herbs, not a single reference actually supported the statements. I figured that one or two might, but so far none. I'll do more and see. This is ridiculous. Orangemarlin 21:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I am sad to say that the more I read, the more disappointed I became. This article does not have to be this bad, but it is substandard in several different ways. The problem is that in the case of medical advice, any wrong information is potentially far more serious than it is in other articles.--Filll 21:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Commercial influence

Now that I have read a bit more of this article carefully, I see that there are suggestions of commercial advertising in spots. We might want to consider how to deal with this, or spin it.--Filll 20:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You mean stuff like: At the University of Central Lancashire, the training of medical herbalists is extensive, and involves the study of anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pathology, differential diagnosis, etc. This enables the herbalist to be able to talk on equal terms with conventional medical practitioners....? I've been looking at that particluar section and wondering what to do with it.ornis 20:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah there are several others like that. Some useful information can be extracted, but I do not want the article to read like a bunch of advertisements strung together.--Filll 20:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

As I go back in the history of the article, I see further evidence of commercial influence, with names of companies appearing and being edited out by competitors etc. It is a mass of crap in several ways, and the commercial jockeying makes it worse.--Filll 21:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I just deleted two spam links. Orangemarlin 22:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Language

To be honest, the English in this article is a bit stilted in places. I am taking the liberty of trying to massage it a bit and make it closer to standard English.--Filll 19:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Herbal administration

The section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbalism#Herbal_Administration and the main article Herbal administration appear to be some sort of "herbal" or instruction manual for administering herbal medications. I wonder about the ethics of this. Should the wording be changed. I also think that any book should be in Wikibooks or Wikimedia Commons or something.--Filll 20:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Copyleft in action I guess. How about for the moment I just cut the section from this article and dump it commented out into herbal administration so it can be integrated ( assuming there's something in here missing from there ). ornis 20:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Update

As I update the links and references, more problems emerge. There are a lot of blog entries and references. I also think we need to discuss the placebo effect, the nocebo effect, Adverse effect (medicine) and hormesis, among other topics.--Filll 23:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Regulation

The article currently gives the impression that the FDA closely regulates the herbal industry, and cites a pro-herbal site as evidence. This is misleading. Herbal medicines and supplements in the US are far less regulated than other pharmaceuticals and medicines, both in what they contain, how they are sold, and what sorts of advertising statements they can make about their efficacy. They are considered food, not drugs, by the FDA, and regulated quite differently from drugs. This was made quite explicit in the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act in 1994. This needs to be clarified; the current statements in this article are highly misleading and their source does not look neutral to me on this subject. --24.147.86.187 12:52, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. This page and its daughter pages have to be updated extensively. They were allowed to evolve into basically advertisements for the patent medicine and natural medicine industries. This would not be particularly serious, except that as WP becomes more and more of a respected and sought-after source, this can be incredibly misleading for the readers. Why don't you get an account and help us clean up this mess? It is like cleaning out the Stygian stables, and more hands make light work.--Filll 13:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

(conflict):Well by all means plases make the change then. Just make sure it's properly cites and the facts are stated in a neutral tone. ornis 13:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

We need to clean these up one by one. By law in the US, herbals can make just about any claim they want. I bought this one product, and it said tall supermodels would throw themselves at my feet. It didn't happen, and now I'm going to clean up these articles. Orangemarlin 13:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Well I've made that change now, if anyone has input on regulation in other countries, please speak up. ornis 03:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The entire area of regulation and standards is quite interesting and complex, according to my limited understanding, and could produce an article or two of its own. There have been pitched political and lobbying battles in the US about regulation of this industry. There are several internal industry organizations that attempt to "certify" products for efficacy and purity etc. There has been a long and ugly history of regulation and testing of herbs in the US and other countries. There was the controversial development of an alternative medicine branch of the NIH. There is the very different European (particularly German) experience, or differences with Asian countries. Basically this section of the article is completely inadequate. --Filll 13:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There are no scientific studies??

>>(NO it can't. Also, it's hard to prove a negative, if you think some herbs do things, then show it in the article.)

>>You don't have to search far to find an example Cayte 20:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Honestly, you need to read these references better. It is in a mouse model treated with Benzopyrene. It was a high concentration extract of ME. And it "may" have been a result of ME. What does this prove? And I didn't say there weren't scientific articles. Just that there are a lot fewer than you're imagining. Orangemarlin 20:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

>>But your current statement is more nuanced than the one in the article. It should be replaced with the more accurate statement that there ARE studies but their quality and interpretation is under dispute.Cayte 20:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Why exclude the in-vitro antimicrobial tests on garlic especially since I added the caveat that in-vitro tests are weak sources of evidence?Cayte 18:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

>>FDA does not regulate herbal products. >>But they still have opinions >>AMA comments are lower grade references than articles On scientific studies, yes. But this is an opinion article on policy. Svience is silent on policyCayte 18:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte >>There is no "mainstream medicine." The term is in current usage. The NCI provides a definition[2]Medicine is a more inclusive term that applies to ANY study of disease or treatment ( preliminary studies, archeological medicine, forensics, etc )Cayte 00:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Edits and references look pretty good. I'll take a look at some of them in more detail, since I can access the full articles. I might have to tweak some things, maybe find some other references (if one is good, 2 is better). Orangemarlin 22:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Opininion vs fact

Opinions should not masquerade as scientific fact. Calls for policy change remain opinion even if supported by the majority of scientists. The majority of scientists probably vote Democrat but the statement "You should vote Democrat" is not a scientific statement. Opinions are OK if it is made clear. eg "A recent survey shows that the majority of doctors support regulatory change." But it belongs in the regulatory section.Cayte 17:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte Other probems with the article are: The contents and the risks described are inaccessable w/o a subscription to the journal> Without acess it is not useful to most readers It doesnt match the text. The text referes to the community of medical professionals but the document is a single editorialCayte 18:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Cayte, accessibility does not make a reference good or bad. What matters are reliable sources, that is references that are peer-reviewed, meet the standards of the field (whether science or not), and do not represent fringe theories. You are confusing secondary references with reliable ones, and that vast research supports most scientific statements, and they are not opinion. I notice that you take references that actually don't agree with the statement. One reference hardly ever confirms a theory or hypothesis--usually it takes a lot of research. Some of the articles you have chosen state things like "results may assist in blah blah blah, but more research is required." That doesn't confirm your statement. That's why I back off your statements with what appear to be weasel words, but are more in line with what is stated in the article. Moreover, you can tell a lot about an article from the abstract. If the abstract seems like it doesn't fit with the statement, I'll assure you that the rest of the article will do more of it. Orangemarlin 18:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

In the lead I added the caveat that the studies only provided weak supportive evidence. I have no problem with pointing out their limitations. They are still of interexst. A reference is opinion if it advocates something like legislation. Science deals in IS statements not SHOULD statements.Cayte 18:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Well, actually science doesn't deal in "IS". Science asks questions related to a hypothesis and attempts to test the validity of the hypothesis. Science rarely states "facts" in the sense of a legal fact.Orangemarlin 20:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

An interesting nuance but moot to my point. Requests for the government to DO something are not scienceCayte 19:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Echinacea

Just a critique. There are actually three outstanding references for echinacea and colds. The problem with any of them are that they are meta-analyses, which means they are analyzing the data, not making an analysis of the how the data was derived. Just remember, echinacea does not prevent colds, its only effect appears to be lessening the duration and intensity of the cold. I take echinacea about 2 seconds after I think I have the symptoms of a cold.  :) I'll add the other two references.Orangemarlin 19:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Opinion vs fact continued

Finally, I found the full article, PM16685816. It is in a section called essays so it does not claim to be science. It has no references except for an unsourced anecdotal report. The artcle asks no questions of nature. Instead it advoctes more regulation and government hiring and funding. In short it is a political and not a scientific statement.

It is VERY important not to comingle science and politics. It can only undrmine confidece in both.Cayte 20:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)cayte

Looking under the lampost

Describes the problem with excluding foreign language ( Polish ) references. They need to be flagged until they can be vetted by a qualified speaker of the language. Unfortunately, I have not yet found the right templateCayte 03:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

No, they need to be excluded in favour of english sources. If general readers can't read them for themselves, then they're worthless. ornis (t) 03:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

They're not worthless because among other things, Wikipedia is a source for researchers( some of whom are multilingual ) and herbal medicine is international in scope. The conclusions may be skewed if they are limited to a single language.CayteCayte

Well, yes they are. Wikipedia is primarily useful as somewhere readers can go to find references on a topic. Other language wikis might be different, but as english speakers we're absolutely spoiled for good academic publications. The fact is we should almost never have to resort to non-english sources, particularly not in a science or medicine related article. ornis (t) 06:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually that is not true of herbal research which is rarely done in the US for financial and cultural reasons. There are Indian studies of some herbs. Lots of studies in other languages. If it is possible to find them in English, fine, but the quality of studies in English often leaves much to be desired. KSVaughan2

Cayte, this is an English encyclopedia, so articles should be in English unless translated or there are notable items in the article. Please see WP:VERIFY#Sources in languages other than English. Ksvaughn, Wikipedia expects reliable sources, whether English or otherwise, which verifies statements made in an article. To quote Marcia Angel of the New England Journal of Medicine, ...since many alternative remedies have recently found their way into the medical mainstream [there] cannot be two kinds of medicine - conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work. Once a treatment has been tested rigorously, it no longer matters whether it was considered alternative at the outset. If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Reversion of POV

I added some info, as well as reworded elements under the list of herbs for blatant POV pushing in terms of pro-pharmaceutical ideas. I removed only a few sentences and words because they were out of place, POV, and/or irrelevant. Please don't simply remove edits without first reading them and then discussing them here, I would say that is fair since I'm staying neutral on both sides. Wiki wiki1 23:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to make such sweeping changes you need to discuss them first, you can't just go cutting out neutral material and replacing it with partisan ( and unsourced ) comments, then demand everyone else justify reverting you, when you made no attempt to achieve consensus in the first place. ornis (t) 23:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't see any 'sweeping' changes, I simply changed words that were overtly negative, and tried to make statements that could be applied to both sides apply to both sides, i.e. 'dosage can lead to death' which was used in many ways (many of them sneakily written) in order to basically bash herbalism without any justification.

Almost none of these statements can be 'sourced' since they aren't discussed in a neutral manner anywhere that I know of, so I did my best to just make the language more neutral.

Would anyone consider some of my edits neutral enough to be added back in? Wiki wiki1 23:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright. I've re-read your edits and I certainly believe they were made in good faith, however many of them ( even the ones I agree with, such as needing tighter regulation) are not really appropriate for an encyclopaedia, and some of them look like an attempt to bury criticism and caveats under wordy equivocation. What specifically are your problems with the article as it stands? ornis (t) 00:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It looks that way to me as well. To state that one "simply changed words that were overtly negative" and "tried to make statements that could be applied to both sides apply to both sides" is a bit of an understatement of the impact of the edits. Whether they were made in good faith is irrelevant; what is relevant is that they cleary read as POV edits.

In any case, please follow Ornis' advice. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 17:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I just read over the edits too. Though some of them I agree with, in general WikiWiki's edits decrease NPOV and increase the "support" of the validity of Herbal remedies. If it has been scientifically and clinically tested, then it is a medical tool. Otherwise, it's speculation. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Substantial changes

As I understand it, Wikipedia only requires that entries be verifisble and the author adopt a neutral point of view. He/she may however present various points of view provided they represesent either the consensus or a signifigant minority view .How have I violated Wikipedia policy? Additionally, the changes were substantial. I only changed a littleCayte 02:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

BTW WP:DR requires that disputed content NOT be reverted, simply flagged as POV and discussed. I didn't revert anytnhing, just added clarification. Likewise my edits shouln't simply be reverted.Cayte 02:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Oh very good. And why then did you not simply flag the statement and bring it up on the talk page? And I did improve you edits, I returned the statement to the established consensus. As far as I only changed a little goes, character count has little bearing on whether or not a change is substantial, for example: Jamie is man --> Jamie is a woman. Two characters and the meaning of the sentence is completely reversed. As for your changes, I'm curious as to why you felt it necessary to remove this statement: due to the status of herbs in the United States as dietary supplements which are technically not supposed to have medicinal functions? ornis (t) 03:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I retained the information that standardization is not mandated in the US. The statement sounds tendentious to me but normally, I just flag tendentious posts as POV or unreferenced. But as is the statement is not coherent. The lack of standards are not caused by DHSEA becuse its logically possible to have a separate category for supplements and still require standardization. Also if plants have inherent variation the statement it is due to DHSEA must be false. Cayte 03:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Herbs used as medicine

Removing POV tags without discussion is against WP:DR. If Herbs with Medicinal Effects implies too much it could be Ongoing Herbal Research or Herbs under Investigation or whatever verbiage implies some research is underway but it is still a work in progress. But Herbs Used as Medicine may be construed by some as meaning it is endorsed by mainstream opinion.Cayte 02:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)Cayte

The tag was spurious. It's "Plants used as medicine" because the lists cover plants with proven efficacy, plants with disproven efficacy, and plants whose efficacy has either not been sufficiently researched or not researched at all. The title currently in use is the most NPOV and least cumbersome possible that covers all those criteria. ornis (t) 02:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is Used as Medicine is ambiguous. It begs the question "used by whom?". Some readers may assume "by mainstream medicine." If it means by anyone, anywhere, anytime it borders on meaningless.I'd prefer a title that is not open to misinterpretation.Cayte 04:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Perhaps. I read it to mean "used by anyone inclined to use herbs, past and present." However, you may want to have a look at the talk page of List of plants used as medicine, that was where the present title was adopted, and personally what ever the consensus ends up being on the title of that article I will harmonise the title of this section with it. ornis (t) 04:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually on that note, I think part of the confusion may be less to do with the title than with the format of the list itself. If this list were laid out like the main list, it would be much clearer I think. ornis (t) 04:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposal for rewrite of the article

I have been reading this article and have noticed that it seems to be in pretty bad shape, numerous sections under dispute, countless unreferenced material, etc. I just wanted to get everyones opinions on a rewrite of the article. By this I mean a total rewrite of the article with introduction of new material, reformation of material, all citations added, etc. This would be done by me on my own time and when finished I would ask anyone willing including all major contributors to come to the drafts talk page to propose changes to the article on it's talk page. Once all editors are agreed on the article and no disputes are left, we would replace this article with the rewrite and then nominate it for a Good article and then hopefully a featured article. I'd like some input on this proposal. For those of you unfamiliar with the process please see the Parapsychology or (in progress) the Homeopathy article for more info. Please add some input on this. Thanks. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 06:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Given the lack of NPOV, undue weight issues, and general bias on Homeopathy, I would prefer that you not rewrite this article. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 13:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd prefer the messy process of various editors with different points of view and (hopefully) an NPOV consensus emerging. Thats what Wikipedia is about.Cayte 17:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)Cayte

Thanks Cayte. I think this article is genuinely becoming NPOV, and you've worked hard to add in references and the such. Let's not change it. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 21:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree with Cayte and OM, this article has some issues yes, but it's shaping up nicely. What it needs is a few more citations and some copy-editing, not a total re-write. ornis (t) 23:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok. It's up to all of you. I could probably have it up to GA status within a few weeks. How long do you all think it will take simply to get the "Disputed" tag at the top of the article off and the article sourced? If it's not rewritten that is. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 23:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It'll take exactly as long as it needs to take. Frankly the totally disputed tag could probably be removed now without too much drama, as it's largely an artefact of an earlier clean up. ornis (t) 23:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It's been stagnant for weeks. No improvements, no sourcing, nothing. The disputed tag is the least of it's problems. It's badly written, Not encyclopedic, Not sourced, Missing relevant information and containing irrelevant information, needs a 'wikification' cleanup, far too many External links, The "Examples of plants used as medicine" is too 'listy', it should be formed into paragraphs, The current citations need to be formated. The list goes on. I offered to rewrite it and get it up to a Good Article status within a few weeks but if you're all unwilling to participate then I guess I'll just leave it. Because as it stands, I don't see it improving much as is. It needs an overhaul. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 23:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I am astounded by this comment. This article was began Jan 23, 2004. It has been edited a total of 953 times. In the last year, there have been 693 edits, about 73 % of the total number of edits. In the last month there have been 147 edits. In the previous month there were 151 edits. In the year before that, monthly edits were never higher than 62 (September 2006) and often 30-50. It strikes me that the last 8 weeks have seen an explosion of activity, almost 1/3 of the activity since this article was started over 3.5 years ago. How does this constitute being stagnant? I am astounded, sir. Frankly, astounded. I do not know what to say. --Filll 00:06, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is the diff. That looks like a lot of changes in the last 8 weeks, since June 1, 2007. And the article has gone from 51 KB or so to 46 KB. That is stagnant? Wow. --Filll 00:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)