Talk:Kraków

 GA on hold — Notes left on talk page.

Vistulans

"Before the Polish state existed, Kraków was the capital of the tribe of Vistulans"

that's not true - there is no signle evidence that Cracow was Vistulan's capital. We know about Vistulans that they existed, we dont know what was their central city - we dont even know if Cracow was on Vistulans terrain (Vistula is long river). We should add word "maybe" to this text. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.139.30.36 (talk) 10:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

Old talk

Is there any reason to include a mention of the Balthasar Behem Codex here? It has a one sentence mention that says that it 'was recorded'. MichaelTinkler

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Krakow article about Casimir III the Great is connected to Casimir II instead. Casimir II died 1194, Casimir III died 1370. There are several other places where Cas II and III are mixed up. user:H.J.

still, an impressive piece of work and well formatted

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this city called Cracow in English?Halibutt 13:26, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've also thought this way but see: Talk:Cracow. And as a matter of fact, Google search for Kraków/Krakow (English only) returns about 1,010,000 hits, while Cracow - only about 162,000. Kpalion 18:58, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It was decided there to use Krakow, which is used about 8 times as often as Kraków in English (950,000 to 130,000 with an English language restriction on Google, more in favor if you confine it to English top-level domains). Looks as though it was discussed there, then Wik moved it to Kraków a month later, even though that's not the usual English usage. It used to be Crakow but that's fallen out of use, now getting only 3,220 estimated Google hits. It's unlikely that Kraków will replace Krakow in English text, because ó isn't on English keyboards. Jamesday 06:22, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Why is the German town Hannover listed under Hanover then in English Wikipedia? Ah, I guess it must be because English keyboards do only have one n. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       18:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

But if we write Krakow instead of Cracow then why not use the correct Polish spelling? Nobody forces English speakers to write Kraków but at least they will know that this is the correct way to write it. --Kpalion 08:22, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Okay, so don't force anybody to write Hannover and wear down the lonesome n key, and also let them enjoy ignorance is bliss in selected cases. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       18:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I was not able to find any reference regarding English transcription. I've searched interwiki and I found that in spanish it is Hanóver, with one n too. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 18:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Here [1] Hanover is also used. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 18:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

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I've culled the following external links from the article. They have no place in it, but I don't have the heart to delete them entirely.

The most important schools of higher education are:

• Jagiellonian University [2]
• Akademia Ekonomiczna
• AGH University of Science and Technology (Akademia Górniczo-Hutnicza)
• Akademia Muzyczna
• Akademia Rolniczna
• Akademia Sztuk Pięknych
• Panstwowa Wyższa Szkoła Teatralna
• Politechnika Krakowska
• Wyższa Szkoła Pedagogiczna
• Wyższa Szkoła Zarządzania i Bankowości

The most important and popular schools of secondary education are :

• V Liceum Ogólnokształcące im. Augusta Witkowskiego
• I Liceum Ogólnokształcące im. Nowodworskiego

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Perhaps the coplleges should not be there, but the Universities? Why not? Halibutt 11:29, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Cleanup

I added a {{cleanup}} tag to this article. So far it is more a repository of ASCII links than a wiki article. I believe most of the links should be either erased or simply moved to separate articles like Culture of Kraków, Education in Kraków and so on. Any volunteers? Any ideas? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 19:12, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)

Spam

3/4 of the last 50 edits [3] are related to inserting and removing the www.cracowonline.com link. There are some ways to solve that problem without protecting the page, see: Wikipedia:Spam#External link spamming (“If you see a bot inserting external links, please consider checking the other language wikis to see if the attack is widespread. If it is, contact a developer: they can put in a site-wide text filter.”). Rafał Pocztarski 10:45, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I added the request for a filer on meta.wiki. --Gene s 11:07, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Spelling / misspelling

A Google search for "Krakow", "Cracow", etc + "Poland" -"Wikipedia" and restricted to English language sites, results in:

Krakow   1 120 000    
Cracow     257 000    
Kraków     190 000    
Krakau      26 000    
Kracow       7 870    
Crakow       6 300    
Cracov       4 300    
Krakov       3 800    
Crackow      1 170    
Krackow        705    
Krokow         574    
Krakoff        529    
Krakaw         302    
Krokov         135    
Kraców         131    
Crakov          88    
Cracaw          75    
Craców          63    
Krakóv          63    
Kracov          53    
Krackov         30    
Krakuv          16    

And now there's a question to native English speakers: which of the above are correct English spellings and which are mere misspellings? My own guess is that the correct, traditional English name of the city is Cracow which is, however, gradually falling out of use (I don't know why) in favor of the Polish name Kraków which English speaker usually misspell as Krakow. But I'd like to hear someone else's opinion on this. – Kpalion (talk) 16:59, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The only spelling I've ever seen in English is Cracow. I've seen no evidence that it's changing to Kraków (which includes accents unknown to English). Why then is the article headed Kraków? It seems that either Wikipedia, many involved in Wikipedia or a noisy few Wikipedians have decided that it is somehow rude to use English words for foreign cities when speaking English. Do Poles use London or Londyn when speaking Polish? They use Londyn. This does not offend me so why are they offended by Cracow? Avalon 20:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Contrary to countless other articles, I guess nobody is really passionate about whichever name we chose for this article. The rationale for chosing Kraków instead of Krakow was that this way we could have two squirrels in one hand. And the name apparently stuck since it's correct for the Poles and - to be frank - the Brits or Americans do not notice the diacrite anyway... Halibutt 00:36, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

As a Brit, can I just say that I do notice diacritics? (But that's just me. I think you're right, Halibutt: most Brits either don't notice them or view them as quaint decoration.) I have noticed that "Cracow" is not often used in present-day British writing - it actually feels a bit antiquated or affected. It's almost always "Krakow" now, and hardly ever "Kraków" (which feels slightly affected). But personally I always try to use the diacritic if I can discover where it is on the keyboard. --A bit iffy 01:48, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Should we change Warsaw to Warszawa, or are we lacking enough google hits to do so? Dr. Dan 13:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Dan, I don't really get what's your point here. As has been proven above, the current title is quite good in that it's acceptable to both Poles and Brits. On the other hand you might want to propose to move the article (use Talk:Warsaw for that), though I wouldn't expect much support for that if I were you. //Halibutt 07:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

My point is quite simple. The name for Krakow in English has always be Cracow, and has been so, for ages. Long before Wikipedia, the internet, and "google hits" were available. In the meantime, "somebody" didn't like the looks of Cracow or the sound of it, and decided to change it. Maybe the "Cow", was unacceptable. Maybe the "Crac". As for the line the current title is quite good in that it's acceptable to both Poles and Brits, give me a break. Its laughable. When this "group" of Poles and Brits decide to change Cow to Krowa, and there's a "vote" on it, I will abstain. Dr. Dan 14:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Names change, Dan. Live with it. For centuries the English name for what is not Vilnius was Vilna. And what? People use Vilnius nowadays. Same with lots of other place names in the world. I must say I like Cracow more as it's kind of old-stylish. However, the above discussion is quite instructive on the matter, isn't it. //Halibutt 16:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I do agree with Dr. Dan's sentiments. Sadly though, I think Cracow has already lost out in a period predating the Polish wikipedia cabal. Krakow has largely replaced it; moreover, if you add the cabal's cherished slippery slope fallacy, this means the wiki title will stay at Kraków. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 16:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Please be civil and stop accusing others of being a member of a cabal.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Wasting your time, a Pheadair. Although you might like to suppress everyone who disagrees or opposes you, wikipedia is fortunately a western based organization which you have no control of. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 16:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Western society has also many psychiatrists who often help people with symptoms of paranoia - something you should keep in mind.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That's reason enough to come visit us sometime then. ;) I should warn you all, however, that they can be expensive. Maybe we can get you an EU subsidy? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Now, now, Gents, Break it up a little, as one who can professionally comment on Psychiatry (without revealing unecessary personal details), let's not go there. A day or two off of this subject would probably be a good idea. Dr. Dan 17:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I can Live with it (was not planning to harm myself over it), as for the "old stylishness" (kind of like Pan and Pani, maybe), my perusal of recent English encyclopedias shows Cracow still in use, and Rome and Moscow, and Munich as well. No Rzym, Moskwa, or Monachium. On the other hand Halibutt, I agree that Names do Change, and we will have to keep that in mind for people and places, in the future as well. Dr. Dan 16:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the choice of words, I meant no harm (not a native speaker, remember?). As to the topic - take note that it was actually yours truly to first ask why is this page not at Cracow - in March 2004. That is indeed long before certain users registered here and invented some Polish conspiracy.

As to your arguments: indeed, the name for that city has always been Cracow, much like the name for Warsaw is Warsaw, the name for Wilno used to be Vilna and the name for Poznań used to be Posna. I always liked the names as they were, but it seems people are right that Cracow, Vilna and Posna are coming out of use. While a simple google test is not a strong argument when it comes to propriety of any terms, it definitely helps measure the actual usage - and that's what is crucial here I believe. As all languages evolve, English is no exception... //Halibutt 19:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The English books I have read use regularly "Cracow". Krakow is like that idea of erasing just diactiticals. Cracow settles well in Western renditions, c in use, compare name in French, Latin and so forth... Shilkanni 21:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, drogi, I know you meant no harm, and you probably have noticed that from time to time, I use too much sarcasm and humor in some of my edits and responses. This is because there is often too much "Pomp and Circumstance" (not from you), that needs to be broken up with a laugh or some irony. I think it may be a "knee jerk" reaction on my part, sort of a resistance to "Pompous Blowhards" out of academia, that I have opposed, all of my adult life.

Yes, I noticed your March 2004 edit. I am not "in sync", with the explanation, nor the reason for the change. This is not some reactionary desire to stop the inevitable evolution of the English language, on my part, or a bias to to prevent any Polish incursions into the English language. (Perhaps you've read my copy edit to the recipe for Zupa ogórkowa). In all seriousness, although I'm not interested in changing Warsaw to Warszawa, this is exactly what's going on here. I think Kraków "slipped" through (diacritics and all), and needs a serious re- analysis. Like you, I mean no harm. Dr. Dan 22:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC) P.S. Never heard of Posna. Never.

Dan, perhaps I jumped up the gun. Lately there's plenty of people suggesting I'm part of some conspiracy just because I'm a Pole - and that my aim is to turn the English wiki into a Polish one just because I am who I am. While this is a huge update from the times when it was common in wikipedia to say I'm a moron just because I'm Polish, it's by no means more pleasant - and perhaps I simply overreacted.

In any case, if you really want to start some voting here - go on. You'll even probably have my vote for Cracow, though - as I said - I'm by no means convinced and I believe this is far from being an obvious choice.

As to Posna - one of my English teachers was 90 :) //Halibutt 22:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It's officially "Kraków" / "Krakow" now. Link (in Polish). A 7 11:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes Krakow is now to be the official spelling, which is only right considering there was never a king Crak, (which would have been pronounced tsrak and probably written down as tsrack in english. We shouldn't forget the /oof/ pronunciation on the final vowel either. I live in K. and absurd as they may seem these things are of importance to us here. --Garissonangel 21:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Cracow is still quite a common spelling in English (it is far from dead as some people above think) and no native English speaker would dream of pronouncing it as tsratsof. In any case the Polish authorities have no authority over the English language. --86.133.247.156 16:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, the spelling "Kraków" has the disadvantage that it has no widely accepted derivative. The web contains 22,000 hits for "Cracovian" (the traditional term), 984 for "Krakowian", and 806 for "Krakovian". (These results include only pages that mention Poland and don't mention Wikipedia.) The fact that "Cracovian" is such a clear winner is a strong point in favour of "Cracow". -86.140.131.100 19:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Krakow has been the correct English spelling for some 50 years. See Encyclopedia Britannica, Webster's, etc. Also, it's close to the original name of the city in Polish, i.e. Kraków. Also, it's widely in use. Whereas Cracow is dated spelling derived from the French name - Cracovie. By the way, Cracow is now a name of a town in Australia.

Cracow is now a name of a town in Australia. So what? There is a dozen (or so) Warsaws in the USA....--Jotel 12:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

More on the Kraków theme...

...why isn't the IPA rendering of the word shown? It's used pretty much everywhere on wikipedia for such articles.--Deridolus 07:31, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is now :) //Halibutt

City government

There should be a section on city government, preferably merged with the Politics section.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Protection from IPs

As I look at the edit history, 9 out of 10 IP edits seem to be linkspam, and this really messses up the page edits history. Would anybody object if I protected this page from ip edits?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Modern stylings

All of the pictures in this article appear to be of religious and/or classical buildings. Are there any images available of the more modern face of Kraków? I know Kraków is a modern European city, but this isn't shown very well in the article. Liam Plested 19:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Check commons:Kraków.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

From what I've seen, modern Kraków is rather unremarkable. Don't misunderstand me, I'm seriously in love with the city of Kraków. But it's not like Warsaw. Since the capital moved from Kraków to Warsaw, Warsaw became a center of business as well as a center of government. Warsaw has a steel and glass downtown, apart from the medieval city center. When Kraków ceased to be the center of government, it remained largely a university town. The medieval city center really is the heart of Kraków to this day. It seems to me that "modern" Kraków is largely communist era apartment blocks. 140.147.160.78 19:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

Krakow is in Germany

Yes, it is - no need to tune into CNN for reports on unexpected Bundeswehr advances to the East, though. As discussed elsewhere regarding currency issued in the city we talk about here, it was found out that bills of 25 Pfennig and 50 Pfennig had been issued from 1916 to 1922 in Krakow - which refers to the town Krakow am See in Northern Germany. In addition, Northern Germany has two more places called Krakow (and numerous places ending in -ow due to Slavic heritage there, see Wends). The town which was part of Austria until the end of WWI before becoming a part of Poland, is called Krakau in German (there's also a Cracau near Magdeburg).

It seems some embrace this as another reason to insist on the funny thing on the ó, while I suggest to welcome the traditional and unique Cracow instead, and thus spare the city the dubios honor of getting frequently spelled abroad like German villages. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       17:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was part of Austria-Hungary, but it is too close view to the short last history, you should know that Poland existed a long time before May 3, 1791 when it was partitioned between Prussia, Russia and Austria-Hungary. See Poland for reference. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 18:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, another theory confirming pure Prussian origin of Kraków. --Lysy^talk 17:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

What are you trying to tell us here, Lysy? Dr. Dan 04:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the point of this note. Please give me some light into this. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 18:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

So do I. Lysy, do you know something we should know? Please elaborate on confirming pure Prussian origin.-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       18:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

What I know Kraków was built in 999 by Boleslaw I of Poland. I still don't understand to the point. Kraków is declined Krakus the founder of Kraków. And cities in Germany with the same names, it is simple - Krakus was a celtic God and Celts were spreaded all over the Europe, nothing special. It's not far to seek that those cities in Germany are of celtic or slavonic origin rather then vice versa. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 18:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

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-ow, -owe, -gov, -gow, gowe endings

Just a short note on the -ow or -owe endings on a number of places. The w =uu = double u was for many centuries used in German languages. Thus many places in Switzerland, Holland etc show up on older maps and still as -gowe (instead of High German -gau or -ow or -owe- High German -au or Aue (a meadow, valley, where a town was founded.) It is today often falsely assumed that it is of Slavic origin. But the gowe, gow, gov gouwe (High German: Gau, Latin: Pagus, government territory, administered by gov-ernors) were establised by Charlemagne + 814 and can be traced back to German(ic) language administrations.

Yes, also Glasgow (another one of those 'should be Polish' cities ?) Labbas 12 January 2007

I think it is not a good idea to assume origin of the city by its name. In case of Glasgow it is a transcription of Glas cau (see Glasgow). If we will go more far to the history these languages came from Latin and we can go more far and more far. It is impossible to trivialize origin by this. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 18:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

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Hi Tulkolahten, the Glasgow note was a joke, a sarcasm, because there is this large Polish group at wikipedia, that 'insists, that everything is Polish or at least should be'. It seems, that you have not read too much of those discussions yet. Anyway, thanks for your good input. Labbas 12 January 2007

Nice, but the most hardest thing on foreign language is to find sarcasm or irony. Each nation express this a little bit differently. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 20:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

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Tulkolahten,

An example: :Sure, another theory confirming pure Prussian origin of Kraków. --Lysy^talk 17:58, 12 January 2007.

This previous note by Lysy, is a real good example of sarcasm, irony, a joke. He knows and everyone else knows (or at least should know this much of history), that Krakow (the one in Poland Lysy is referring to) is not of pure Prussian origin. Therefore, when I input the Glasgow reference , I added (another one of those 'should be Polish' cities?)

Perhaps when one learns a different language, it is easy to get confused with what is really meant. That is probably also happening to a number of other wikipedia contributor. This is supposed to be the English language wikipedia and formerly people insisted that none-english speakers can contribute, but do not have the final say in the actual text. A whole group of Polish speakers has taken over and a great many people and places are described in Polish-English instead of factual names,. (Same thing happenes with other language groups as well). When English-speakers objected to this (almost all Polish)-English stuff, esp. SCA - Lysys answered, that this is an international wikipedia and the English speakers are outnumbered.

So the cheer volumne of mirror sites all copying every word, every version, all the nonsence written on wikipedia, is overwhelming the google search results. People , especially students, think, that wikipedia is an authority on facts, that can be trusted, but that is not so. Rather often Wikipedia is a rumor-mill, where false information spreads rapidly. Therefore wiki has these legal disclaimers on the bottom.

I see, that you are actively conversing in several languages. Good for you. Labbas 12 January 2007

To be honest, Lysy's sarcasm is obvious, but not yours - just because if you look into the history you can find interesting tribes and nation moves between 450-900 A.D., so although it is impossible to trivialize origin only by name, it is possible to use it as a guideline (but very deep in the history). You also, maybe soon, realize that even between native speakers written text has sometimes different meaning than talk. If you didn't meet with this phenomenon before be ready because it can be a surprise. I shall agree with your thoughts about groups on wikipedia but each case must be reviewed separately. I prefer original names of places and english as an alternative in the brackets for example, as you can see on the example of Gdansk discussion about names is usually driven into the flame war which is not good. But I must disagree with your criticism of wikipedia, because it is a simple payment for its principles. Happy editing. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 00:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Top of Page

The way the images and the infobox are, the text does't show up at the top of the page for me. Either your need to move the pictures or something. Kevlar67 02:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. Well, approximately done--it's hard to distribute the pictures to exactly match section borders. Freederick 17:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

problem

there is a mistake in the article - lodz is the second city in poland (this is information from polish and english wiki) and has 776.000 poeple, here is written that cracow has 780.000 so either ths city is bigger than lodz or has less people....

Goal: GA

This article could become a Good article with a little effort. Interested editors are welcome to contribute and coordinate their actions here, I know User:Poeticbent is working towards that goal, and I will help with history section soon.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

History: dates in (sub)section titles

Wikipedia is written for an international audience, so "After the partition of Poland" is meaningless for 99% of readers as far as the history period is concerned. Section titles are there to help readers to decide whether to read or skip a section. If one has to read the section to find out the period it covers, the sections might as well be called 'section 1', section 2' etc. If "After the partition of Poland (late 18th to the end of 19th century" is too long (may be it is...), then just leave the first bit out and call it simply "late 18th to the end of 19th century".

Sorry, forgot to sign :-((
Jotel 16:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I get your point, but the subtitle is way too long as it stands, for a good read. For those who don’t know the history of Poland all that well, the phrase Partition is pretty much meaningless, unless they read more. Therefore, I find the actual dates to be of greater importance here and, as per your suggestion, I am rewriting the subtitle accordingly, into "Late 18th – end of 19th century". By the way, thanks for all your good work Jotel. --Poeticbent talk 17:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad a peaceful solution has been found :-))
Jotel 17:24, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Economy

The economy section is long enough as it is (to put it politely...). It certainly does NOT need any more copying from the city's balance sheet. I suggest it's trimmed down: Who cares about 1% from tax on liquor sales permits or 1% in transfers to poorer district?
Now my second point: The last paragraph talks about growth, positive signs, falling unemployment. But all these claims are illustrated by examples which are at least 10 years old. Either this describes a past boom so the text needs rephrasing/deleting, or some up to date facts/figures need be quoted to confirm the glorious situation the economy is in at present.
Jotel 15:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

These are all valid points. Statistics originated from the article in Polish Wikipedia [4] based in a locally released data to the last percentage point which might be seen as excessive I suppose. However, personally I find it interesting what the revenue is from tax on liquor sales in Kraków and I’d rather use caution when slimming it down, same with the social housing and stuff like that. Meanwhile, the closing paragraph was based in a different source, a book published earlier and therefore it could be spruced up a bit at our discretion. The biggest challenge as always are the sources. --Poeticbent talk 15:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Initial stab: done. BTW, shouldn't the bit about IT firms flocking to K. be moved from history (last para, 20th cent.) to economy ? Unless somebody objects strongly, I'll have a go at it.
Jotel 16:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. --Poeticbent talk 16:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Per my earlier comments, while budget of Kraków does not need explanation detailing in the Kraków article, if we have the info, we should split it to the subarticle, not delete it.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

K's budget is in public domain, there is no need to regurgitate it annually into a separate (sub)article. Look at articles on London, Berlin, Prague, Warsaw: the economy sections there do not deal with trivia like EUR6,000,000 liquor sale tax or social housing.
Jotel 17:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Never mind the sources & references for a moment, let's think what there is to say.The economy section should contain something like: K. contributes nn% to Polish GNP; K. is the largest producer of dehydrated water in the EU, tourism is the main source of K's income (some of these suggestion are easier to convert into publishable statements than others :-). If we can't find anything worth shouting about (e.g. because the main economic activity is flipping hamburgers), than we should say nothing or very little. And certainly the section should not be padded with figures about tax collection and repairing potholes.
Jotel 11:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we should find a way of combining smaller portions of K’s city budget into one-liners, as the so called “others”? I wonder, what would the smallest percentage point be, as described in detail under such conditions? Roughly 10%, or around 5%? --Poeticbent talk 14:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The economy section should give info on unemployment, big companies/employees in Kraków and primary type of industries/services in the city. Minor details can and should go into a subarticle.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The information in the article should be clarified:

Projected expenditures ... included: 21% in city development costs and 79% in city maintenance costs with 39% toward education and childcare. ... development costs were subdivided in bulk part into 41% toward road building, transport and communication, and 25% to city's infrastructure and environment

Is the 39% toward education a part of the maintenance 79% ? It must be, otherwise the expenditure exceeds 100%... This needs to be reworded to avoid guesswork. Also it would make sense to state directly x% of the budget spent on education, y% on roadbuilding &c, instead of the reader having to work out a percentage of a percentage.--Jotel 11:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

 Done Please take a look. I reworded the maintenance percentage points to clearly indicate what is what. However, the source did not include further specifics. The road building, transport and communication seem to be combined into one part of the city’s budget. --Poeticbent talk 15:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Done indeed. IMHO the the text makes it clear now what is what. Thanks.--Jotel 06:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Government

See Warsaw#Municipal_government for example of what information should be included.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Template:Kraków

Just a reminder that this template is not currently included in this article...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning it. The template contains little information of significance except for a barrage of red links. Subsection “Tourist attractions” listing peripherals (like Sigismund Bell) and oddities (like Smok Wawelski) would indicate, that the template is also terribly out of date. --Poeticbent talk 15:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed - one of the reason for bringing it up is to see how we can improve it.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Smok Wawelski is mentioned in the first sentence of Early history, so it's an important part of the heritage, not an oddity...
--Jotel 12:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

History section FAR too long

This section refers to the main article (History of Kraków) which is some 1600 words long. And the history section of Kraków is approx. 1200 words long. The 'compression ratio' is seriously wrong here. The section needs heavy pruning.
--Jotel 16:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I suggest merging the current version with the subarticle and then doing major cuts to the current section here.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The 15th – 16th century subsection reads like a visitors' book: X was here, Y was here, Z was here, etc. Only the last paragraph deals with the town history.
--Jotel 14:52, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Metropolitan area: population

The main text says in the 1st para: 1.4 million. The infobox is more modest: 1.2 million. Don't know (or particularly care) which one is correct, but the figures should be identical.
--Jotel 10:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

cracowonline

Wikipedia spam filter blocks the www.cracowonline.com web-site for some reason. I removed it as it does not allow to save the edit. --Irpen 21:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Konev and saving Kraków in 1945

The argument that Germans planned to destroy many of Kraków's monuments and Soviet Marshal Ivan Konev with his suprise attack managed to force them out of the city before they were ready is pretty well known; however it is by no means undisputed by reliable historians. For example, Polish historian, Andrzej Chwalba([5]), writes clearly that Koniew did not save Kraków on purpose.([6]) First, there is no proof that any non-military buildigns were mined; second, Soviet encirclement manevrouver which forced Germans to evacuate the city was not done because Koniew cared about Kraków in particular, but because it was the right military choice (he could avoid costly urban warfare, and done so); third, it was later that Soviet and Polish communist propaganda started claiming that he did it out of his love for Kraków, as one of many examples how Soviets care about the Polish people, their culture, etc.; fourth, Koniew was actually expecting Kraków to be defended, and before German abandoned it, Soviets were intensifing their air and artillery bombardment of Kraków([7]). There is no denying that Koniew's efficient military leadership saved Kraków, but it was only a byproduct of war - just as, let's say, destruction of historical monuments in Dresden or Hiroshima was not the primary goal of the respective bombings. Further, if Germans decided to turn Kraków into a 'Festung Krakau', the city would be in much worse shape - so in the end, the city was plain lucky - that Soviets enveloped it instead of attacking directly, and German high command, instead of giving the order to 'defend the city until last men', gave the order to withdraw. Or, if you dislike lucky - that fortunes of war dictated to both sides that the city was not fighting in. Yes, I see no problem with mentioning that Soviet rapid advance contributed to the city escaping destruction that befall many other cities - but let's not overglorify Koniew, he was just doing his job - and nothing else. PS. See also interesting story, but only as see also in this argument. PS2. In case this is brought up: there were also no alleged negotiations between Soviets and Germans about making Kraków the free city, Polish archbishop suggest it to Hans Frank but was dismissed, end of story.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, we were thinking/writing at the same time on the same subject. I noticed this at the text and was prepared to put notice on discussion board about my clarification about this myth.

Well I already put Chwalba's opinion that I found at Alma Mater.

Also information on mass rapes of Polish girls and women by Soviets was missing as well as brutal plunder that even communists installed by Soviets wanted to protest to Stalin himself. I added that information.

--Molobo 23:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

All details belong in the subarticle (History of Kraków). I will move it shortly, there is no need for such details here.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok agree with most, moved to subarticle, I only added atrocities as rapes shouldn't be described as 'damage'. --Molobo 23:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, Molobo's stuff does not warrant a response. Pitorus, somehow, I am not surprised knowing your past habits. Every Russia-related articles should get all the Poland-related issues one can paste there. Every PL-related article can get all the issue that present Russians, Soviets and, sometimes Ukrainians, as murderers, rapists and suppressors of Poland. Fair enough. Here, we have a well referenced fact that the Soviet operation saved the city from destruction. No, does not belong here. Article about the city should not include the reasons why the city is still there. Why? Because it owes this to Soviets. On the backburner of course. Is this why Krakow shipped the monument to Konev to Russia recently?

Oh, and cut the "Soviet propaganda" stuff. Gareev is a respected historian and I can find plenty of more refs to this. I am restoring the minimum amount of relevant info and if you want the article about the city to be an FA and suppress the very reason why we have this city at all, anyone would doubt what your interest here is. Comprehensive and encyclopedic coverage or making sure that the articles are POVed "right". --Irpen 02:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Both of you, take it to the subarticle. This article simply has no room for details of Soviet liberation (with or without quotes). I believe that the single short phrase "Nonetheless, due to a rapid advance of the Soviet armies, Kraków escaped planned destruction during the German withdrawal and emerged as one of the few major Polish cities relatively undamaged at the end of the war" is enough to cover the point here; details of Koniew's strategy and its use or misuse by propaganda don't belong here.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus I accept the current version of the article. --Molobo 03:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"Both of you?" I was not talking to Molobo. I was talking to you, Piotrus. Nice selective elimination. Konev's role removed but Molobo's "although atrocities and damage were inflicted by the Soviet garrison itself" left. None of my concerns are addressed in any way but a revert war. You now continue the war with yourself. The section is tagged and the tag is warranted until this is resolved. From past dealings with you, I would not be surprised if you now edit war to remove the tag of course. --Irpen 02:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Irpen I see no reason for the tag just because article touches on Soviet actions. Unless you give some serious reasons the tag will removed. I can't help to notice you likely see also very little reason for the tag by trying to prevent it from delation with "I would not be surprised if you now edit war to remove" statemants rather then serious argumentation. --Molobo 03:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the anti-Soviet rant, which is as irrelevant as pro-Soviet glofirication of Konev. There is no need to mention Konev here, as this is just a brief summary with no room for mention of him - just as there is no mention of the commanders during the 1914 siege, commanders of the Kraków Uprising, notable mayors, and such. For the record, I believe that the "although atrocities and damage were inflicted by the Soviet garrison itself" sentence is too detailed for the article and can be moved to the subarticle too.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

First, please stick to the facts. In this edit you kept Molobo's valuable addition "although atrocities and damage were inflicted by the Soviet garrison itself". Second, I am not talking about "por-Soviet glorification of Konev". I am talking about well-referenced statements that include converation records of "Soviet stavka" that preventing the destruction of the city was made a priority. There is no other way to explain sending the ground troops without air-bombardment and artillery bombardment. If you know a least bit about the WW2, you would know that Soviets had a deadly advantage in artillery that they used to their advantage without hesitation. Leaving the Germans a path to withdraw made no military sense. This attack got in the military tactics text-books on how to act when avoid the damage is the top priority. Finally, I repeat, that I can find as many refs for this as you like. Please stop the revert war, let's agree on the content of this small issue, remove the tag and move on. I am tired of your edit wars. --Irpen 03:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Trying to name Soviet prop-talk to a different name is not really an argument Irpen. The article has enough information already. I don't think we need to dwell on "saving" the city by Soviet troops who raped Polish women and girls afterwards and provoked even soviet installed communists to protests. As to references we all know Soviet mythology is widespread. I am sure you can find lots of refences. Suffice to say, article contains enough important information-I agree with Piotrus on that--Molobo 03:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the job of the commander to plan operations in such a way that Allied cities (especially major ones) suffer the minimum damage possible. Thus Konev was just doing his job in not destroying the city. Just like Eisenhower was doing his job by not sending heavy bombers to flatten Paris during the Allied advance across France, for example. Konev was simply a competent commander, not some great humanitarian. Giving excessive praise to Konev for sparing the city, something that he had to do under the circumstances of full and rapid German retreat unless he wanted to be considered a war criminal, and also something that was in the interest of the Red Army (since intact cities are more valuable than destroyed ones), is an interesting piece of mental gymnastics. Many if not most Polish cities were taken by the Soviet army without being significantly damaged by its artillery (Łódź, Katowice and Lublin come to mind), so trying to paint Krakow as a somehow exceptional case in this regard is invalid. Balcer 05:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Right, Piotrus. As I expected [8], [9]. --Irpen 03:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, as disappointing as this. Will both of you stop this childish POV-pushing?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, earlier you compared Ghirla to Molobo. I was expecting that you would do the same with me at some point. So, here it came while I never compared you with, say, Nixer. Well, that's just your view on ethics, I guess.

Anyway, behavior of Soviets in Krakow did not stand out much compared to elsewhere in Poland. You want to talk liberation or rape and plunder, you got it all the same as elsewhere. The general history belongs to the general history articles. There are dedicated articles about "treatment of Poland by occupiers" as well and this stuff does not need to be repeated in the articles of each city or village.

Saving of the old Polish capital from destruction is what makes Krakow stand out and differentiates it from elsewhere. What is city-specific belongs to the city article. For the general Soviet brutality, there are enough articles you and your friends wrote already. Repeating this stuff in the articles about each town, village or house in Poland is WP:UNDUE. --Irpen 05:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Irpen but atrocities of Soviet soldiers on citizens of Kraków belong to articles on Kraków. In what form and in what lenght in specific articles of Kraków is open to discussion. However I see no reason to delete them.

"Piotrus, earlier you compared Ghirla to Molobo."

Unlike Ghirla I never called anybody "Bulgarian pest" never said "f*ck* you" to any editor, please don't compare me to such offensive Wikipedian.Thank you.

"There are dedicated articles about "treatment of Poland by occupiers""

They are only articles about Soviet occupation of Poland till 1941 Irpen. And they don't contain information about mass rapes and plunder in 1945 naturally.

--Molobo 11:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Wilno but not Krakau

A question to Wilno-pushers into the articles related to the Lithuanian amd Vilnius history. Why the article does not call this city Krakau in the 19th century context? --Irpen 02:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Because unlike Wilno, Kraków didn't have a significant German speaking majority. And I am pretty sure Polish language was the official language of the Free City of Kraków.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, another "solid" "argument". Before 18th century you could hardly found any significant Polish speaking population in these areas. But this not prevent form Wilno-pushers to implement favorite name even in 15, 16 etc centuries to city Vilnius. And yeah, this article should be moved to Cracow, to its proper English name. M.K. 11:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's see the opinion of the Lithiuanion editors on that. ---Irpen 02:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The usage of Kraków during the period 1846 to 1922 is inconsistent with the practice followed by the Tokyo (Edo until 1868) and Gdansk (Danzig) articles. These examples are specifically mentioned in WP:Naming conflict. Novickas 15:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you want to apply the same procedure to Lithuanian city-names ?--Molobo 16:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't suppose we can agree on what the nineteenth-century city was actually called in English at the time, and still is most often in retrospect: Cracow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be OR-I believe it would be rather Cracovia. But as Kraków is acccepted name in English language it can stay.--Molobo 16:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I said English, and nineteenth century; not Latin, or Renaissance. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

And I said Cracovia, frankly this OR. Kraków is accepted name in English language so there is no need for to create theories--Molobo 16:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The resolution of the Gdansk/Danzig issue involved tremendous amounts of time and energy on the part of many editors - I think that compromise should be respected. Per "was actually called in English at the time" see [10]. Is it worthwhile to recreate that problem? Novickas 16:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There are numerous problems with the Gdańsk resolution that have not been solved, and remain open, also voting was subject to pressure of an admin with certain 'opinions' about Poland. Despite those minor problems,would you like to propose similiar proposal regarding former territories of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ? As to the link there is nothing about usage in english at that time.--Molobo 17:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

We had discussed this issue in the past. There are arguments for using Cracow or Krakau in 19th century, yes. There are also many more arguments for using Wilno for pre-1918, and we should not forget about that aspect.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not about "how many arguments" you can find, or your personal opinion, P.P. This is about consistency in the English Wikipedia, and the ability of a reader to find information. This is not about some nationalistic or chauvinistic mind game. If you do not recognize that the English toponym, Cracow was the predominant English description of the city's name prior to 1975 (including in every Polish tourist pamphlet) then you are falsifying the truth. For me, a simple compromise is to let you use Krakow, but by keeping your edits concerning Vilnius, using the same arguments and logic, we will dump Vilna and Wilno, and have some simple consistency. Dr. Dan 00:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I;m afraid that Molobo's bold assertions do not match the facts. There are twice as many 19th century Google books with Cracow as Cracovia. What will not be so obvious to editors with a limited command of English is that most of the uses of Cracovia are nineteenth-century reprints of earlier sources, such as the Harleian Miscellany and the Anatomy of Melancholy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

According to Google Book Search Cracow did not exist in the English language before the end of the seventeen hundreds, however, Cracovia did, even if marginally.

• Cracow Poland date:1000-1700 - did not match any documents.[11]
• Cracovia Poland date:1000-1700 - books 3.[12]. Here's an example:

The Present State of Europe: Or, the Historical and Political Monthly Mercury. Page 215: for the Month of July, 1696 This Prince was nam'd John Sobieski, the Third of that Name, King of Poland. He was the Youngeft Son on Sobieski, Palatin of Cracovia...[13]

--Poeticbent talk 04:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but isn't the issue here as to what predominates in the English language from 1000 to 2007? Is it Kraków, Cracovia, or Cracow? Dr. Dan 15:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that there’s more than just one issue here. According to WP:NCGN: “The same name as in title should be used consistently throughout the article.” And, why the present title? We already know that. Also, please read about the so called "Anglo-Saxon cultural imperialism" here. And perhaps consider the following qote from the same book, written by Jerzy Jedlicki: "no Polish scholar would dare to use the Polonized name for London or New York in a bibliographical note... thus we decided on “Kraków” and not “Cracow”..." --Poeticbent talk 16:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Then someone should tell the Polish Wikipedia; they seem to have no problem using pl:Nowy Jork. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, no one has satisfactorily explained why we still use Warsaw instead of Warszawa on English Wikipedia. There is absolutely no reason to use Polish for one, (Kraków), and the correct "historical English geographical toponym" for the other, (Warsaw). No reason at all. Where is the logic? Where is the consistency? Dr. Dan 00:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Warsaw is an accepted English name just as Kraków is.--Molobo 19:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Is Warsaw an "accepted" English name, or the only and correct version of the English language toponym for Poland's capital? Or do you think that Warszawa is an accepted English name just like Kraków? Dr. Dan 19:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if Warszawa is as accepted as Kraków is. Perhaps it will be one day, then we will change it.--Molobo 21:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Americans who don't remember anything else about Polish cities, may remember that the capital is Warsaw. Thus Warszawa would confuse such a person more than any spelling of Kraków. I like the trend to use native names for foreign places, but logically the best known places should be the last to make that change. Art LaPella 22:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Art, if you stick around for a while, you'll find that logic and consistency of purpose gets quite a roller coaster ride when dealing with English gepographical toponyms (by certain editors) on Wikipedia. Or try and get an honest and straight answer from them to boot. Dr. Dan 23:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The name Kraków became accepted in English language possibly due to huge numbers of English tourists in the 90s lasting to this day, and its attraction as tourist hot spot.--Molobo 00:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Please consult WP:OR. --Irpen 01:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Possibly?, WP:Weasel?, sure, and these English tourists said "Wow, this is a hot spot, let's change our language and call this city Crackoof. But let's make the "C"s into "K"s and add an Ó to our language. And oh, let the "W" sound in Cracow sound like an "F" sound (but only in this instance) in the English language. Hopefully the Poles won't object." Irpen, do you think my theory might be original research, or is that a plausible theory supporting Moplobo's explanation of the "Big Bang" that changed the English language in the 1990s, lasting to this day? Dr. Dan 02:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the point that Molobo's personal opinions are irrelevant can be made in a less articulate way but I don't really think anyone buys his personal theories anyway.

So, let's return to the main subject. There are contexts in which our respected colleagues persist in using Kijow, Wilno, Kaniow, Lwow, Brześć, Nowogródek, and even Wolodarka (!). But at the same time, as far as Krakow (or Warsaw and Gdansk) go (plenty more examples), using historic names in proper context is opposed. What is this? Integral consistency or academic dishonesty. We better settle it now since this process brings in the outside viewers who could provide us with their take on this. --Irpen 03:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

It will probably take the "outside viewers" (which is unfortunate), to resolve the matter. Too many mind games have been played with the cities you mentioned, that demonstrate a lack of sincerity on the part of certain editors, and will not permit a resolution to the problem at this point. Until this is resolved, the Cracow FA needs to be placed on hold. Besides, the article is still gramatically messy. Dr. Dan 03:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Demographics

The graph caption says Area: per 100 ha . That's nonsense. And further: Population density per 1000 Thousand what ?? And what consecutive 18 districts is supposed to mean? And square area?--Jotel 08:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

 Done The graph has been edited for clarity and reloaded in Wikimedia Commons.[14] --Poeticbent talk 18:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

References (surplus of)

I think it's pointless to give external references next to wikilinks, when the ext. refs. refer to the same material. For example, in the Late 18th – end of 19th century section there are external links to Matejko & Wyspianski, pointing to material which (possibly) should be included in articles on M. and W. Article on Kraków/Cracow/Krakau is not a place for these links.
BTW, the Wyspianski link is broken.
--Jotel 11:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Symbols of Kraków

I'd suggest adding pictures of the seal and the banner to that section.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Puzzled (references)

I am puzzled by this edit: reference brought back as per request. Why was this ref removed? If a source is judged as non-reliable, the referenced fact should also go; otherwise any removal of references is damaging the article (there is no such thing as 'too much references'). See also WP:V.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

(1) It was me who removed it, because it did not point to the E&Y report, but to an estate agency page. (2) As to the "If a source is judged as non-reliable, the referenced fact should also go" statement, I strongly disagree: a fact has its own existence, and may be supported by another reference. (3) "there is no such thing as too much references": (a) a questionable policy (b) references, if present, should give relevant information from reliable and sources.
--Jotel 19:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Old English

Please read the article. A city founded after 1190 cannot have an Old English name without a time machine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

You are incorrect - probably mistaken the date of Krakus legend. The first mentions of Kraków date back to 10th century, not late 12th.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. The Old English was extinct by the 12th century, but up until then, Cracovia must have been the only spelling of Kraków available in the English world, as the much later English source would clearly indicate (see my quote above). --Poeticbent talk 03:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It would still require an explicit citation; a hasty read of the article may have missed the detail that the end of Old English is set when it is largely because there is very little English remaining from 1100 to 1200. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean to say that the English people stopped talking to each other from 1100 to 1200 about the outside world using English toponyms like Cracovia recorded in their own literature as far ahead as the year 1696 (see above)? --Poeticbent talk 17:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I mean that the (small) literate population in England between Henry I and Richard I was overwhelmingly literate in French or Latin, not English; there's a reason it's called the Norman Conquest. The assumption that Old English must have simply adopted the Latin name unchanged is also false; most placenames have an anglicized form, not the straight Latin. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Minorities (and basic arithmetic)

The Demographics section says there are 1572+472+50+22+1678, say 3800 in total, folks declaring themselves as non-Polish. Even if the number of Romas is 5000 instead of 1678, it's around 7000 'minorities'. The total population is over 700,000. So how to explain "3% of students who belong to ethnic minorities" in the same section? It's 1% at best...--Jotel 09:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It's so nice to answer one's own question oneself: the response quality is guaranteed :-). Anyway, the reference quoted to support the 3% talks about the Lesser Poland voivodeship as a whole, not Kraków specifically. Therefore the corresponding sentence will be deleted as irrelevant anon.--Jotel 10:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Unless there are objections coming from editors other than yourself, I’d like to see some of the corresponding data reinstated in the article with further explanation. For example, I find it quite intriguing how the official census and the unofficial numbers of ethnic minorities living in Kraków differ from what the children declare in schools, when asked about their own background. Apparently, according to what the Ministry of Education says, even though only 1% of adults (estimated above) claim their status, as much as 3% of students participate in programmes designed for ethnic minorities. Let our readers decide what is more telling, the census and various estimations, or the proverbial pudding. --Poeticbent talk 15:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I repeat: max. 1% is in Krakow, 3% is in the voivodeship. So I see no contradiction here, apples and oranges come to mind. OTOH the article on Krakow is no place to discuss how various age groups declare their ethic background and which estimate of minority numbers is right or wrong. --Jotel 17:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason why percentage points are so much better than absolute numbers is that they don’t grow the same. One percentage point of a million, like one percentage point of a thousand are still just one percentage points of a hundred. The percentage points of minorities living in metro Kraków and across the Voivodeship remain the same, whether it is 1%, 3%, or anything in between, and not 1% here and (therefore) 3% there. And please don’t impose your views of what the article on Kraków is supposed to be, without accommodating the views of those who put as much work into it as you do. --Poeticbent talk 18:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:OWN, again? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

4th century ??

The first para. says "This historic city, dating back to the 4th century...". Later on, in Early history it's "The earliest known settlement on the present site of Kraków .... dates back to the 4th century". But (a) the reference quoted in the 1st para. mentions either the Stone Age (1st settlements) or the mounds of Krakus and Wanda probably from 7th century (b) whatever was there in the 4th century, surely wasn't a city. So either a source supporting the 4th century can be found and quoted, or both texts need rewriting. --Jotel 13:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It still reads The earliest known settlement established on the present site of Wawel Hill dates back to the 4th century in this section. But the first sentence of ref.1 says: Archaeological findings provide evidence that Wawel Hill was settled as far back as the early Stone Age. And a minor point concerning the same section: what does the word 'actual' do in the sentence The first mention of the city's actual name dates to..... What's the difference between 'actual name' and the plain 'name' ?--Jotel 08:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Rewritten in the way consistent with references, hopefully for the better...--Jotel 12:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Sarcophagus

Veit Stoss ... finished his work on the Great Altar ... followed by a marble sarcophagus for the king. Which king ?? --Jotel 07:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Economy: property prices

I do not think it's appropriate for an encyclopaedic article about a major city to quote prices: Residential prices in Krakow have doubled in three years and reached those of Warsaw (1,500 EUR per square metre). Unless somebody convinces me WP can/should be used to check property prices in various cities of the world, I'll delete this statement. --Jotel 07:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Synagogue

"Some of Europe's oldest synagogues, with the most prominent of them, the Old Synagogue, were built in the adjoining Jewish quarter of Kazimierz". But the WP article referred to says that the O.S was build either in 1407 or 1492. Is there a good reason why this sentence is not in the next section: 15th – 16th century?? --Jotel 12:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Motto

... is supposed to be "Ex navicula navis " Isn't it strange it's the same as Łódź's ? Certainly it makes more sense for the latter ...
Comment for non-Polish speakers: it's a pun on the literal meaning of Łódź (English: boat) --Jotel 13:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Part of Austria for many decades, as Krakau, which must not be denied

This article must respect WP:NPOV and cover properly the times when it was part of Austria. This deserves a subsection in the history, for sure. Also, the name of Krakau has to be mentioned for that time. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       22:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Stop the gratuitous mentioning of "Kraków"

Is the point of this article to enter as much mentions of "Kraków" as possible, or impossible? It can and should be written in better ways, without superfluous additions of the Polish name. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       22:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Imperial

... the imperial Poet Laureate Conrad Celtes ...: Which empire ?? --83.31.245.80 10:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Holy Roman Empire of course, not too many to choose from for many centuries. Is looking up his bio harder than writing a question? -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       22:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Districts

The 1st and 3rd paragraphs of this section both describe the oldest districts. This repetition is unnecessary, the information should be merged into one para. --Jotel 14:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite?

I find it peculiar to see a German soccer fan rewriting Polish history with the quiet approval of the Polish editors like Jotel. Way to go, people. According to Matthead, Kraków was not the capital of Poland but rather “the capital of various incarnations” and it was “neighboring European areas” meaning, it was not neighboring the Moon in case you wondered. “Many works of Polish Renaissance art” have now disappeared from section History, but most importantly “the Polish throne passed to… other foreign based rulers in short time.” New section just popped up with the prominent Krakau in case you forgot. “The town was subject to Austrian overlordship in varying degrees”, however “'the Poles of Prussia can have nothing whatever to complain of, except that they are not citizens of a free and independent Poland'”. Section “20th century to the present” has mysteriously vanished, but Jagiellonian University has turned into a link to a link to a Cracow Academy (meaning, itself) instead. I feel sick just looking at this butchery. --Poeticbent talk 15:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Calm down Poeticbent, and try reading the article with your eyes (and mind) open. The text which you selectively quote actually reads "capital of Poland from 1038 to 1596, and the capital of various incarnations of the Kraków Voivodeship from the 14th century to the year 1999". What's wrong with that ? The K.V. meant different things at different times, and there was a period when it did not exist at all. As a matter of fact I had played with the idea of making a change along the similar lines myself, but got distracted. The bit about Poles of Prussia is a comment, so for all practical purposes it does not exist. Besides, if you think your favourite passages have been removed, insert them again. Sorry, Poeticbent, but here, in WP, anybody can insert and/or delete anything. The fact that someone is a German football fan is neither here no there. I have no idea of (or interest in) what sport you are a fan of, you are judged by what you have to say on any subject of your choice.--Jotel 15:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

As to "Cracow Academy", this was the official name for a good few centuries. Yes, it's commonly and informally said the J.U. was established in 1364, but strictly speaking this is not true: the institution is much older than its relatively modern name. And it's absolutely proper to use "Cracow Academy" in the 14th century context. As to Cracow Academy pointing to Jagiellonian University - well, what else should it point to? If you really think it deserves a separate article, go ahead and write it.--Jotel 16:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Remember that the editing process involves going through edits and reverts (per WP:BRD). If you disagree with something, change it and discuss it. But please, avoid personal attacks: Matthead may be a German soccer fan, but it's not relevant here.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, according to his contributions Matthead is in fact particularly concerned with soccer. If you think that that's a value judgment, it is you who’s making that judgment by calling it a personal attack, not me.
Here's another gem for Jotel (to defend perhaps?) from the lead section of the article. "In English known as Cracow for centuries, also when it was as Krakau part of the Austrian Empire until 1918, the town has at times been been one of the leading scientific, cultural and artistic centres of the country, and neighboring European areas." Good luck with it. --Poeticbent talk 18:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

And, finally, leave me out of your edit wars ("I find it peculiar to see [...] rewriting Polish history with the quiet approval of the Polish editors like Jotel"). I shall make my own edits, or refrain from making them, as I see fit, not because I feel any particular desire to form a united front with somebody against somebody else.--Jotel 16:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

This article is in excellent shape, and appears to mostly meet the Good Article criteria. However, there are a couple of issues that must be resolved first.

• All of the 'citation needed' tags MUST be addressed prior to GA status. Either a suitable reference should be found, or the material in question should be removed.
  • Done.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• The lead could be improved. It's not bad, and provides a good, basic introduction. But I'm kind of lost somewhere in the third paragraph; the first sentence of which is kind of a very strangely written run-on sentence. It might also help to review WP:LEAD for suggestions here.
  • Could you be a bit more precise? We have done some edits, but I am not sure if this is what you wanted.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• The history section looks great! Well sourced, and well written. Some of the subsection headers are a bit long, and could probably be shortened. I would also recommend taking a look at WP:MSH to insure that they conform to the manual of style.

• The geography section looks good. It would help to add some basic information about total and area (sq mi, sq km) of the city limits.

See infobox. No need to repeat it. --Jotel 08:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Consider promoting the economy, demographics and culture sections. A good order of sections would be etymology, history, geography, demographics, economy, culture,... as these are the sections that readers would most likely want to see first. Parks & Sports should probably be moved to their own main sections, and not was subsections within culture.

• The 'twin cities' information should have a reference. Usually, these are actually called 'sister cities', not 'twin cities', as the latter term could be confused with the twin cities of Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN. So I would recommend changing the title of the section. A good reference for sister cities is www.sister-cities.org.

It's 'twin cities' almost everywhere in WP. In English you say 'X is twinned with Y'(from the BBC news website: Durban has been one of Leeds' twin cities, A new flight service from Bristol links it with Bordeaux - its twin city , Coventry has twin cities in the following countries &c) --Jotel 08:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Umm, not it's not. Most of the articles I see refer to this section as 'sister cities'. The term "twin cities", to me, refers to two large cities that are in close proximity to each other, such as Minneapolis-St. Paul. The term "twin cities" is also a misnomer in this case as well; since "twin" implies "two" (not three, or four, or more). If you have a listing of several cities, the term "twin" is inaccurate. Dr. Cash 20:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• See also and Main article links need attention. If you scratch beneath (only just beneath...) the surface, you'll find some nasties:
  • List of mayors of Kraków points to a template, with 90% of entries in red (i.e. non-existent). As it is, this list should not be used to seriously support anything.
  • Main article: Education in Kraków: another joke of a source of additional information. It's a plain list of names, nothing more. Any real information can be found in the Education section of Kraków, not the other way round.
  • Main article: History of Kraków: there is a WP guideline that the Main article should be at least twice as long as the 'daughter' one. In this case they are too similar, with the whole sections copied from one to the other (e.g. from Renaissance to Golden Age, or from After the partition to 18th and early 19th century and 1794 - 1918 Austrian rule ). There is nothing wrong with some copying (after all it's abouh the same subject), but as it is, the History of Kraków does not add sufficient value to merit a link.
    --Jotel 12:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
    • While you are right in theory, Wikipedia's very nature is that it contains many underdeveloped articles. Eventually, they will become good; for now, they are placeholders - but as they exist in some form, we link them and use appropriate templates.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  12:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
      • I do not agree with the notion that a Good Article can use underdeveloped articles for Main article and See also section. If/when these articles mature, they could/should be added, but not before. --Jotel 12:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
        • We cannot assess one article on the quality of articles it links. If we did so, we wouldn't have a single GA of FA article.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not concerned about the quality of the text in articles that are linked; we assess articles for GA status based on the article itself, not articles that are linked from it. Since many articles link to perhaps 50-100 other articles in their text, if we had to review the quality of everything that the article links to, there would simply be no good articles. Daughter articles can be brought up to par at a later date, and even nominated for GA status themselves (see Chicago as an example of this). Dr. Cash 20:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Once these issues are addressed, the article can be promoted to GA status. The time period for on hold status is no longer than seven days. Cheers! Dr. Cash 01:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

At this rate (so far 35 edits and counter-edits today), the GA candidature might as well be withdrawn straight away :-( --Jotel 13:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Sad, indeed. It tried to counter the major changes Piotrus and now also Szopen try to force on the article, and also edited in the useful suggestions, but I quit now. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       13:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the intro's third paragraph to address the concerns above[15].

Besides, I wonder why Piotrus, shortly after this GA Review stating "This article is in excellent shape" was posted, reduces the article from 63,697 bytes to 61,862 bytes, mainly by erasing the Austrian part of "the history section looks great!", calling that "some copyediting"[16]? I recommend making only minor edits, with consensus, working cooperatively towards a successful GA status. This applies especially to the controversial question whether the English name of the town was/is Cracow or Kraków. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       04:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Does any 'real' WP user (someone who wants to learn something about the town) really care about the Only Real and Final Answer to the controversial question whether the English name of the town was/is Cracow or Kraków. ? --Jotel 08:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Jotel is right - in the words of Bill, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet! Brisvegas 08:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not removing an "Austrian history part"; I am removing an unnecessary heading (per GA reviewer, who noted some are too long) and a sentence that repeats claim from a previous paragraph. We have a section on 18th and 19th century, no need for a subsection heading on Austrian rule (just as we don't have subheadings for Duchy of Warsaw, for example).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  12:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Be careful, Piotrus! You tried 3 times to enforce your major revert that also deleted over 1000 bytes of text on the Austrian period of the city, which must not be marginalized and hidden behind blurry section headings. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       12:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Gadu-gadu wires glowing, apparently. Sorry folks, but this is ridiculous.-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       13:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Please note that one of the major criteria for GA status is article stability, so edit warring over content will result in the article's immediate failure. Dr. Cash 20:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

However one disruptive editor (now blocked for 48h for 3RR violation), going against consensus of several editors who are improving the article, should not be allowed to derail the article's nomination, I hope? As you can see, the article is quite stable now.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, hold it! "one disruptive editor"! It was you who "derailed" the four day old consensus based on my last edit, to which 5 users (Jotel, Halibutt, Imperium Europeum, 24.169.10.83, Gimmetrow) had contributed, by starting to make "(some copyedits)" shortly after Dr. Cash posted a favourable GA review [17]. As described a few lines above, you were trying to hide this major change behind this innocent summary, removing nearly 2 kilobytes from the history section, mainly telling about the decades as Krakau, Austria, changing the intro, removing {{lang-de|Krakau}} etc., reverting most of the 18 recent edits I made from 20 Sep to 23rd. I've neutralized your ensuing reverts 2nd 3rd, merging in intermediate edits by Jotel and even ones from you if possible, after which the two of us had cancelled out each other within 3RR. That left the field, based on the four day consensus, to e.g. Jotel, who has proven to be quite neutral.

Yet, only 10 minutes after my 3rd and otherwise final revert, a user who has never edited this page nor its talk, someone "called anti-semite, Polish nationalist, chauvinist and whatever" showed up, reverting back to Piotrus three times [18] [19] [20]. Was it a coincidence that Szopen (talk · contribs) showed up and supported your changes? Besides, claims on "Poles in Prussia" hardly belong into an article on a town that was part of Austria at the time anyway.

Piotrus, I wonder how you managed to need only two minutes for noticing Szopens first revert, editing in numbers and references, and posting this edit. Did you spot the revert by chance and reacted quickly? Did you prepare this edit in advance, either to revert for yourself, or to put it on top of a possible revert by somebody else? Which was to be expected when, within hours, or minutes? Tell me, can the frequent use of Polish instant messenger Gadu-Gadu make editors quicker or even clairvoyant?

Anyway, it had been me who, a few days earlier, had defended this article against 207.102.64.214 (talk · contribs), who's IP range got blocked [21] for edit warring and stalking due to my page protection requests for this page (and Copernicus). Poeticbent protested [22] stating "no-one can stop him (Matthead) now". Same story in the section Rewrite? above. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       03:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Infobox messed up

References to population (town & metropolitan area) are messed up, the last correct version seems to be this one. Could somebody more familiar with WP referencing tricks sort it out? I had a similar problem once, and gave up after a good few attempts.... --Jotel 16:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Infobox doesn't like cite.php.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. This only shows how many people, and how often, check what's in the infobox :-(--Jotel 16:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Reversion

I've taken the liberty of reverting to the article created by User:Simon J Kissane on 07:56, 5 December 2001. Put simply this article is more to the point and contains pretty much the same amount of encyclopedic information without all the clutter of the last article. I trust my bold actions will be appreciated by other editors 121.218.198.145 10:18, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

As you are proposing a very radical change, I would suggest that we now follow the Bold Revert discuss cycle. Thank you. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 10:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

References: quality

There are about 100 references, so those who insisting on providing evidence for every other sentence should be satisfied with the quantity. But now the time has come to review the quality. I've done my bit, deleting two references resolving to Google hit counts. But there are more dodgy cases. Two references point to estate agency sites which supposedly support some points in the article. One of agencies is a 'leading real estate office', the other is more modest: 'Our services offer a one stop shop for the entire investment process' so they should really be authoritative on Kraków...
Well, when I come across links like that elsewhere, I immediately delete them as spam. And I shall not hesitate to do the same here. --Jotel 20:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Jotel 17:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

An editor inserted offplanmillionaire.com: Our mission is to deliver you wealth creating property investment opportunities - now we've finally got a word straight from the respectable source's mouth.... --Jotel 21:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Centre of excellence

"Kraków has traditionally been one of the leading scientific, cultural and artistic centres of the country and Europe". Whether it's 'traditionally" or "at times" belongs to another round of edit wars :-)... Now I want to take issue with "leading centres of the country and Europe" versus "...neighbouring European areas". To be honest, I fail to see in the text ANY examples of K's influencing ANY neighbouring areas, never mind the whole Europe. Even the Golden Age is presented as the time when artists from (using today's terminology) Italy and Germany were coming to Kraków, not the other way round. There is no single mention of a Cracovian who made his/her name outside Poland. So shouldn't a more modest wording should be used ?? --Jotel 20:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Does Copernicus (educated there) come to mind? Try not to get carried away with your selective reading. The lead is there to highlight the actual content and not the other way around. And finally, I thought I've already stressed enough that there's a need to promote better writing skills than "...neighbouring European areas" around here. Wikipedia is overflowing with users who build little, but experiment a lot. I hope that that will fade away eventually. --Poeticbent talk 21:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

This Copernicus fellow is mentioned for the first time in the 9th subsection as an author of a manuscript currently owned by the university library, so obviously he isn't all that important.... As to writing skills: well, tastes (and styles, and skills) differ & WP is (for better or for worse) open to all. Anyway, what's wrong skill-wise with the phrase "...neighbouring European areas"? --Jotel 21:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me see. What else is "...neighbouring European areas"? I pasted the phrase into Google and here's what I found: "the North Sea region in relation to neighbouring European areas," "the Iberian Peninsula and its relations with some neighbouring European areas," and "substantially lower fees than those in neighbouring European areas."[23] Not a single city. Actually, I was hoping to find Berlin "...neighbouring European areas", at least some areas, but I didn't find any. Secondly, I'm not sure why, in spite of our pleas, you carry on with your borderline removal of viable references without replacing them. For example, a big real estate office is as good a source of background information on real estate, as any big pharmacy would be with regards to pills. If they weren't accurate they wouldn't be in business. The ultimate goal is to move forward with what we do around here, not backwards. --Poeticbent talk 23:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

It was me who "experimented" and toned down the original rather patriotic wording to a more modest one, as Cracow surely was no leading centre on an all-European level (Veit Stoss did not quite lead da Vinci or Michelangelo), but on a national Polish level. Also, Cracow was not always part of Poland, and many important figures were from abroad - rather than the other way round. Regarding Copernicus, who is famous for astronomy (and being a matter of dispute between Poles and Germans, too), he did not acquire his astronomical skills here, but in Italy. AFAIR he did not get a degree from the Cracow Academy (his Wiki article got so beaten around that not only his education is poorly covered). He had send his manuscript (ref link broken, BTW) to Nuremberg where it was published, it was brought to Cracow only in the 1950s.-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       23:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest replacing "of country and Europe" with simpler "of Poland". Europe had many such centers, and rankings are hard to come by, but nobody can disagree it was a leading center in Poland.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You might want to specify the timeframe for that claim. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       01:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The heat is on

The °F values in Kraków#Geography_and_climate are quite high, e.g. 85°F in August which is over 29° C [24]. The reason for that seems to be this edit - maybe a subtle comment about hot tempered locals/editors, or Mr. Gabriel Fahrenheit being a native of "vote town (city)"? ;-) Anyway, that change could have been detected if not for ... well, you know. The values could be written closer to each other for better comparison, or by using a handy template to display the same temperate in two units, e.g. {{convert|18|°C|°F|1}} yields 18 °C (64.4 °F). -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       01:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)