Talk:Prem Rawat

The Wikipedia Community has placed this article on 1RR probation Articles in category:Prem Rawat are subject to community-enforced article probation restrictions for a period of three months, ending June 4 2008. Probation will be re-assessed at the end of that period, and extended if needed. Editors violating 1RR (one revert per editor per day), or that engage in disruptive editing may incur escalating blocks performed by uninvolved admins, or have other reasonable restrictions placed on them in relation to these topics. Editors must be individually notified of article probation before admin actions are undertaken. Violations, along with a link to this probation notice, should be posted to WP:AN/I, where uninvolved editors will make a determination.

• This talk page contains numerous non-archive subpages involving past disagreements, including: /Bio, /Bio proposal, /Bio proposal/talk, /Bio proposal nr2, /Bio proposal nr2/talk, /Comments, /Finch, /GA Review March 07, /GA review 1, /Heller comment, /Teachings, /Teachings (draft), /criticism, /lead, /scholars, /temp1, /journalists, /WIGMJ

Archives

June 2004 – July 2004 July 2004 – July 2004 (1) July 2004 – July 2004 (2) July 2004 – August 2004 August 2004 – August 2004 (1) August 2004 – August 2004 (2) September 2004 – September 2004 (1) September 2004 – September 2004 (2) September 2004 – September 2004 (3) October 2004 – October 2004 October 2004 – April 2005 June 2005 – August 2005 August 2005 – October 2005 October 2005 – February 2006 February 2006 – March 2006 March 2006 – April 2006 April 2006 – April 2006 April 2006 – May 2006 May 2006 – July 2006 – September 2006 September 2006 – November 2006 Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat (page merged) November 2006 – January 2007 January 2007 – March 2007 March 2007 – May 2007 May 2007 – July 2007 July 2007 – October 2007 October 2007 — December 2007 December 2007 — February 2008 February 2008 February 2008 (2) February 2008 - March 2008 March 2008 (Archive 33) (Archive 34)

Visualisation of footnotes

(please keep this section lower on the page than any footnotes that are to be visualised)

Sources
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Sophia Collier? Really?? Wow...

I don't know who added the quote, I can see why some people would want that quote in the article, but seriously, are you kidding me?? Not surprisingly, since jossi is the only one who's done anything other than clean-up work, the Sophia Collier page (as well as this article) neglects to mention that she's a former student of Rawat's. And this article gives that quote way too much weight. This is not a quote from a scholar's book, it's an autobiography, of someone who was 16 at the time she was living in an ashram (for a month), and the book wasn't written until 6 years later. Also, jossi, while you're at it, if you want to fix Sophia's article, I am pretty sure she didn't sell her beverage company to Joseph E. Seagram in 1989, since he'd been dead for about 70 years at that point. If I can find some sources, I will try and edit that article later.

I don't even know how to express my incredulity at this addition. I have seen people on this article "freak out" because a reference was from a sociologist/psychologist/historian/scientist/scholar/whatever's PhD thesis, and therefore has undue weight, but a passing reference from a 16 year old girl who talks about her drug abuse and LSD experiences during that time in her life, written 6 years after the fact, that's ok with the same people?!? -- Maelefique ^(talk) 15:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I have asked you already to stop discussing other editors, and focus on discussing the article. If you have proposals on how to improve citations or use of sources, you can do that without resorting to such comments. The Collier quote was not added by me, btw. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

If it was possible, I would do so, but the actions of some of the editors on this article make that, at times, impossible I'm afraid. Perhaps you could help police their behaviour in the first place, or are you suggesting that quote is just fine in this article? Anyway, in case you missed my suggestion, I suggest we remove that quote from Collier completely. Thanks for letting me know you weren't the one that added it, you weren't at the top of my list of suspects, but I'll cross you off completely now. :) -- Maelefique ^(talk) 16:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Maelefique, I think your question about Collier is a good one, but your point will be more effective if you can avoid sarcasm, and teasing the editors you want to engage. Msalt (talk) must have forgotten to sign this, where's sinebot when you need it?

Given a choice between John Dart of the LA Times and Collier, I'd pick Collier every time.Momento (talk) 10:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup, a writer for a multi-Pulitzer Prize winning periodical is always a bad choice for reference material over a 16 year old drug-abusing girl writing about her memories, six years later... Excellent choice...did I mention?... Wow... -- Maelefique ^(talk) 18:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Collier book, let's remember that it is an autobiography, hence a primary source. WP:PSTS:

• Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

We can use it, we just need to be careful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, we could use it for some things, but I don't believe the quote we're using to be acceptable. It is not a book about PR, her description of the time was written 6 years later, and it was during her LSD addicted/experimental phase, and she still manages to make a philosophical distinction about how Prem Rawat was percieved? She says "those that knew him better", her one month in an ashram made her an expert, she now knew him better? Enough to make that statement? Show me her professional credentials please. I was alive for the moon landing, that doesn't mean my opinion of it is relevant (and I wasn't on drugs at the time even!). Maelefique ^(talk) 00:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no difference between Collier reporting what she sees and a reporter from the NY Times reporting what they see. And as you can see we have several NY Times reporters quoted in this article.Momento (talk) 03:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Momento, there is a difference. A newspaper like the NY Times is considered a secondary source, while an autobiography like Collier's book is a primary source. If you'd like to change Wikipedia policies then this isn't the place to do it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that an autobiography is a primary source for the subject of the autobiography, but a secondary source for claims/opinions about third parties. I think it would be a good idea to ask at the WP:RS/N for other opinions. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

What policy page gives you that impression? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

What policy page gives you the impression that is not? What I am saying is that this is my understanding. I may be wrong, so that is why I think it will be nice to ask others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:PSTS, a part of WP:NOR, makes no mention of treating autobiographies differently in different articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

To clarify the matter I've posted a question at Wikipedia talk:No original research#PSTS- autobiographies ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Beyond the question of primary vs. secondary is reliability. Momento, what you're missing is that the New York Times (and similar newspapers and magazines) are independent, highly reliable sources with accountability and proven track records. They area specifically cited as the BEST kind of information in the Biographies of Living Persons policy, along with appropriate scholarly sources. Collier has none of these attributes, and the fact that you prefer her to an award winning journalist is a perfect demonstration of how you are promoting your POV over the interests and policies of Wikipedia. It's not even clear that Collier is a reliable source about herself. Her account is interesting, even fascinating as an insider's view and a source of color on the times and events she went through, but Wikipedia is not the place for lots of color from shaky sources. Msalt (talk) 20:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The specific use of Collier is especially bad. She is used to justify a sweeping statement about the experience of many thousands of followers of Rawat on multiple continents, yet she has no credentials as a journalist or writer, and obviously draws only on her own narrow experience (apparently one ashram for one month) to make this sweeping statement. If she had said something more modest such as "My friends and I had a different experience, we didn't believe he was God but thought of him as blah blah blah" she would be appropriately matching her knowledge and words. But then of course the modest statement wouldn't belong in this article. Msalt (talk) 20:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Using the book 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji" as a source

When the article can be edited again I propose that the book "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji" is used as an important source for how Rawat presented himself in 1973. It was written by Charles Cameron and published for Shri Hans Publications, a trading name for Divine Light Mission. --John Brauns (talk) 16:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

There is an WP article about the book: Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? (book). As the book was cited in numerous works, and to avoid original research, it would be best to cite the secondary sources rather than the primary source. See WP:PSTS (section on secondary sources). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I re-checked the book, and the only material there in which Rawat present himself is in pages 83-99, the chapter called "Questions", in particular the first two questions: Guru Maharaj Ji, who are you?, and Do you regard yourself as being a teacher of new religion, or do you regard yourself as God or the son of God?. If editors are interested, I could transcribe the replies to these questions in a talk sub-page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't precise in my proposal. I should have said 'how Rawat presented himself, and how Divine Light Mission presented him'. Lots more material than just the pages you quote - the back page for one, Rennie Davis's intro, and lots more. Regarding original research, as you suggesting that if no secondary sources had ever quoted from the book it couldn't be used at all? --John Brauns (talk) 19:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Prem Rawat/WIGMJ - As for how the mother and older brother, Davies, and others described him that could be included if pertinent, although that is already described in the article based on other sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, there are other quotes from Rawat in the book, but the point is that this book was published by Divine Light Mission, and the views it includes on Rawat can be safely stated to be the view that Divine Light Mission held at the time. You were not a follower at the time but I clearly remember reading that Rawat refered to the book as near perfect as a book could be. --John Brauns (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

and the views it includes on Rawat can be safely stated to be the view that Divine Light Mission held at the time., Well, the book quotes the young Maharaji, alongside quotes of the mother, elder brother, and others (incl Hans Ji Maharaj, an introduction by Rennie Davis, a reverend named Daniel Berrigan, S.J., some non-notable individuals, a reporter of the Toronto Star, Major Yorty of Los Angeles, the Connecticut General Assembly State Rep John Fabrizio, and many others ), so whatever material we consider for inclusion, can be easily attributed to the people cited. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

the book was published by Divine Light Mission. No, it was not. It was published by Bantam_Books a Random House press. The copyright is of Shri Hans Productions, a dba of DLM. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

John, Jossi has given some relevant quotes from the book. Why don't you do likewise and add some quotes from the book that make your point to the page Jossi created? Jayen466 21:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Jayen, which page is that? I have probably missed it in these discussions. --John Brauns (talk) 01:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It's the page Jossi mentioned above in his post dated 19:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC): Talk:Prem Rawat/WIGMJ. I thought you could add some passages there, if you feel the ones selected by Jossi aren't fully representative. Jayen466 01:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I've started adding quotes to the page. --John Brauns (talk) 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Good. Jayen466 17:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Books, even authorized biographies, are usually considered secondary sources unlike land records, court transcripts, autobiographies, etc., that are primary sources. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

That depends on how close to the subject the book is deemed to be; I've certainly seen the opposite point argued as well (even on this page here, IIRC, with reference to the book by Cagan). Jayen466 21:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I recall a discussion over whether the Cagan book was self-published or not, and whether it should be treated as reliable. I don't recall a discussion over whether it was a primary or secondary source (but I may have missed it). Primary sources may be perfectly reliable but they have other problems which make their use problematic. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember it being framed in those terms (of primary or secondary source) either; like you, I remember a discussion about whether it was self-published. I think the discussion moved to the conclusion that it was not, since the author was a well-known biographer with a known track record, and she did not publish the book herself. On the other hand, we noted that the publisher has close links with Rawat. The definition of a primary source focuses on the closeness of a source to the article subject. With autobiographies the case is clear; they are considered primary sources. A self-published source used in an article about its author (e.g. the website of a political party) would likewise be a primary rather than a secondary source, I think. Now, if we are using the Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? (book) simply as a source of biographical detail about Prem Rawat, it is a secondary source. Some editors would probably object to such use, because of its proximity to the subject, making its status as a secondary source questionable. If on the other hand we are citing statements in the book and interpret them to mean something, then the book becomes a primary source, and our interpretation is WP:OR, unless it is cited to literature discussing the book. So in that case it would be better to report conclusions available from secondary sources. At least that is the best I can make of this at this late hour. What do you think? Jayen466 01:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

You have described the situation as I understand it very well. Rumiton (talk) 16:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, books are secondary source as they are created from first hand (primary sources) information. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 00:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Mergefrom Criticism of Prem Rawat

I've posted a merge request on Criticism of Prem Rawat. I propose that we merge that article into this one because they have the same basic topic and because there is sufficient room in this article to handle all significant viewpoints that can be reliably sourced. If material needs to be spun off to maintain a reasonable size then we can find other material to move out. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you intending that all the material in "Criticism of..." comes here? Because some of that material is inappropriate, i.e. links to ex-premie.Momento (talk) 04:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we should continue to limit the external links on this article to the subject's one and only personal site. The other material in that article doesn't seem problematic though redundant material should be trimmed once it's here, as usual with merges. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I oppose a blanket merge, for several reasons: (a) Many of the sources and material is already in this and other related articles; (b) some material is not properly sourced; (c) Some of the material is not criticism per se nd needs to be evaluated in the context of other similar material (i.e. it is redundant or not, does add value or not, etc.) My proposal is to take each one of the sentences in that old article (there is one per source) and discuss one at the time, find consensus and then add. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Jossi.Momento (talk) 05:35, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Momemtno, you say in your evidence that you don't oppose expanding the article to include criticism. Please point to the material in the "criticism" article that you don't want merged here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

There are about 65 sentences. It would take a couple of months to move the material in. It would be more expeditious to first go over the objectionable material you list above. Can you point to which material is redundant, and which is improperly sourced? That would be faster. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Jossi has repeatedly argued for adding material point by point, and Momento agrees. The problem is that Momento, Rumiton, Janice Rowe and often Jossi himself fiercely fight every addition that does not promote their shared POV, through means ranging from tendentious arguments on Talk to flat-out edit warring. There have been literally THOUSANDS of talk edits on this page in 3 months of this year. We have no way of knowing whether this is a deliberate attempt to prevent progress, but we do know that is simply does not work.

In contrast, look at Divine Light Mission, where I made a major, bold edit with all good faith, with advanced notice to those involved, and I avoided contentious edits. In my humble opinion, the article was drastically improved, and even Jossi and Momento conceded progress. So I encourage bolder actions -- with good faith and notice -- as the most effective way to move forward. Perhaps a sandbox would be a good idea. Msalt (talk) 19:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

We have no way of knowing whether this is a deliberate attempt to prevent progress, but we do know that is simply does not work. I would really appreciate it if you avoid using the royal "we". Speak for yourself, if you just could. WP:BOLD is the last thing to consider given the circumstances. Once the ArnCom case closes, any remedies and restrictions imposed will hopefully provide the framework for an orderly debate and editing of this and related articles. The sooner you, I, and others acknowledge that there will be consequences for any type of disruption, the better the chances to stay unharmed and the better the chances for this article to be one that, maybe will not be the one that any one of us would write on his/her own, but nonetheless an article that you, I and others can live with, and maybe be proud of it as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You wrote "The sooner you, I, and others acknowledge that there will be consequences for any type of disruption, the better the chances to stay unharmed..." What do you mean by that? To some ears, it might sound threatening. Msalt (talk) 08:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, can you please point to the poorly sourced and redunadnt material that you don't want merged to this article? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Most of the "Criticism" in the "Criticism of ..."article is already covered in this article.

This para from the Coming of Age section - "In the mid-1970s several ex-members became vocal critics of Rawat's movement, including Robert Mishler, the former president of DLM.[58][59] A number of these critics made the standard anti cult charges of brainwashing and mind control" - adequately covers the "Criticism by former members" section [1].

This sentence from the Coming of Age - "Rawat had by then become financially independent as a result of contributions from his Western devotees, which made it possible for him to follow the lifestyle of an American millionaire" & this sentence from the Lede "He has also been criticized for leading a sumptuous lifestyle because he doesn't eschew material possessions - adequately cover Hunt & Kranenborg & Levine.

This sentence from "Teachings - Journalists and scholars have described Rawat's teachings as lacking in intellectual content.[91][92]- adequately covers Larkin Foss.

Singer's comments belong in the DLM article.

The Paul Schnabel section is very badly summarized.

Wim Haan was a student and his comment from a student paper from a Catholic University is largely cover by "The Sants of this tradition dismiss ritual and dogma and focus on direct inner experience.[86][87] In accordance with Sant precepts Rawat has never developed a systematic doctrine, and the core of his teaching has remained the process of self-discovery, summed up by his statement, "Receive this Knowledge and know God within yourself. That pure energy, God, is within your own heart".[88] Rawat rejects theoretical knowledge" - in the teachings section.

Van der Lans comments are extreme and represent his opinion only.

The media criticism is selectively sourced as per a "Criticism of.." article.

The current article summarizes all the above comments in fair proportion and in the appropriate place. Counter comments from scholars such as Andrew Kopkind,[1] Charles H. Lippy,[2] John Bassett McCleary,[3] Ruth Prince and David Riches,[4] Bryan R. Wilson,[5] Dennis Marcellino, Erwin Fahlbusch,[6] Tim Miller, Raymond Lee, Rosemary Goring,[7] George D. Chryssides, David V. Barrett, Lucy DuPertuis, J. Gordon Melton, Jeffrey K. Hadden, Eugene M. Elliot III,[8] Sandra S. Frankiel,[9] and James Lewis. Barrett, Dupertuis, Melton are notably absent.Momento (talk) 01:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That's quite a list. Maybe I should ask instead: what material from that article are you are willing to add? As for one critic, Mishler is hardly mentioned in this article and only in the context of minimizing his viewpoint. He was quoted extensively in the news with several criticism about the subject and the movement, criticisms that don't seem to be included in any form in this article. Anyway, if we're ready to start adding this material and re-writing it perhaps it's time to unprotect the page. Either that or create a draft page to start working on adding the critical material. Meantime, it may be worth reviewing the "criticism" article to see what cn be better merged with the DLM/EV and "Teachings" articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It's all acceptable and it's already in. Mishler gave a radio interview in 1979 which was generally critical and is duly noted, why would he deserve more space? According to Melton "Robert Mishner [sic] the former president of the Mission, who left in 1977. Mishner complained that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaj Ji's personal use. Mishner's charges, made just after the deaths at Jonestown, Guyana, [1978] found little support and have not affected the progress of the Mission". No other scholar to my knowledge has made a comment about him.Momento (talk) 02:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Wait, you say elsewhere that you "applaudd" this merger, but here you say that there's nothing to merge? Please help me understand what part of the merger you applaud. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

There are two issues here. The first is the intention to merge the "Criticism of Rawat" article with this article and I applaud that because there shouldn't be a "Criticism of Rawat" article in the first place. A second issue then arises, "what material from the 'Criticism' article needs to be added" and, as far as I'm concerned, most of the material is already here. The only material not here are the extreme views of Van der Lars and Haan.Momento (talk) 03:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you unaware of what "merge" means? It means to add the material from that article to this article. In fact there is plenty of material there that isn't here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

There are three types of "merge" described in Wikipedia editing - which to use depends on how much content of the source page you want to keep, and how much time and skill you have to do the merge:

• Full-content paste merger - most content, clean and fast
• Selective paste merger - some content, clean but slow
• Text dump merger - *ALL* content, crude but fast and easy

I presume we are doing the selective paste merge which involves deciding what content to keep. For example, you surely don't expect to put this in the Rawat article -"An article written by Wim Haan, published in the official magazine of the Free University of Amsterdam in 1981, forwards several critical statements. In the article, Haan wrote that he was a member of a critical movement within the Roman Catholic Church and that he was a student of theology at a Pastoral and Theology school in a small town in the Netherlands. In that article, based on his description of his involvement with the DLM over the course of two years in the Netherlands, he asserts that Rawat's battle against the mind sometimes degenerated into complete irrationality, that sometimes premies branded every critical and objective approach as "mind", and that they often avoided discussions with outsiders because these discussions could possibly stimulate the mind". Or do you?Momento (talk) 06:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not responsible for writing any of the text in the "Criticism" (though I've made some changes per your recommendations). I'm proposing a merger, which usually means adding in the non-redundnat material. The text you cite seems wordy, but I haven't read the underlying source to know whether or not it's properly summarized. I'm not even sure that Haan is someone we need to cite.

Let me ask the question again - which material do you think can be merged? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

And I'll tell you again, I think the worthwhile material has already been adequately summarized and included. But you obviously think it hasn't. So why don't you do what I've done, read every single word of what these sources have said about Rawat and decide if the summary accurately reflects their opinion. Then we'll be on the same page and we can discuss what you think is important that's been left out.Momento (talk) 07:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So you "applaud" the merger of these two articles, but you think that nothing should be merged. And you don't see any contradiction there? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

<<< I think it is premature to ask for unprotection. The ArbCom case is just a few days from closing, at which point we will have the necessary framework to engage in discussions and resume editing without disruption. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it premature to say what material you think is redundant or poorly sourced? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I already addressed that: Bring one source at the time, and let's discuss it, check if it is already used, assess if it is worthy of incusion and in which context, does it add value or not, is it redundant or necessary, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say the same to Momento: Bring each one of the sources you mention, with a proposal on how to include it so that we all can take a look and discuss. Making long lists of sources or asking for blanket statements will not work. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

You said above that the existing "Criticism" article is poorly sourced. Are you now unsure which parts are poorly sourced? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not say that, Will. Is late here. Gnite. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I asked you three times but you've never answered the question. Folks say they are willing to allwo criticism in this article, but then they object to any actual criticism being added. It's a bit ridiculous. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have an old, blank DLM ashram application? I think we should at least post the third page and then let Jossi explain why the guru isn't that way anymore. That would seem to be a balanced approach to things. Wowest (talk) 06:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure understand you (never having seen an ashram application). Which "way" do you mean? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

One of the big issues for Wowest and others is that Rawat stopped being a Guru in the early 80s.Momento (talk) 07:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

<< What is the purpose of all these discussions here, when Will Beback has already taken it upon himself, and without discussion or seeking consesus, moved large portions of the material in that old article to Divine Light Mission, and Elan Vital (organization)? I will continue the discussion about the moved material in the respective articles. Now, my turn to ask a question, Will: Why? Why are you on one hand seem interested in discussing issues, and on the other hand you seem to dismiss the need for discussion, almost as if to prove a point. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If you observe my edits more closely you'll see that I have been respsonding to Momento, who has participated in this discussion, by deleting an external link from the article by moving material more relevant to DLM to that article, and by drafting new text. You've been invited into this discussion several times. If you don't make any specific comments about the material it's hard to act on them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 15:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Will. That is not the way it looks. Seems to me to be a bit pointy. Is this and an attempt to force your hand by bypassing the development of consensus? Momento and you are not the only two editors, and there is no need to rush things and trample the building of consensus in the process. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to participate in this discussion, or the discussions on other talk pages, is welcome to do so. Consensus doesn't mean waiting until everyone has gotten around to saying "yes". You often advocate "BRD". I haven't added anything to this article, and I won't until the protection is lifted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

BRD is a great device, but placing a {{mergeto}} on one article, and then move the material to another article is, how can I put it gently? ... not compatible with one another? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If you object to adding material to an article then I suggest raising that concern in the article's talk page. The intent is to move to this article whatever material from "Criticism of Prem Rawat" is appropriate, as suggested by the merge tag. Material more appropriate for other articles goes to those articles. Do you think a criticism of the DLM belongs here or in the DLM article? I'd be surprised if you think it belongs here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• Respectfully object the merge. The article is huge already. wikipedia:Summary style offers a proper advise for such cases. Mukadderat (talk) 22:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

2600 words is not "huge". By comparison, the biography of a similarly notable individual, OSHO, is 6400 words. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Shall we agree that it is large, then? :-) Mukadderat (talk) 03:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not so large that it can't be made NPOV by including all significant viewpoints. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Please explain how wikipedia:Summary style will prevent you from inclusion of all significant points. Mukadderat (talk) 22:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Imagine a bio in which all of the praise for the subject is in the main article, and all of the criticism is in a separate article (save for a brief summary). Such an article would not meet the basic policy of NPOV. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Protected?

I understand, the article is protected from editing (at least I cannot edit it), but there is no tag. Please some of admins, place the protection tag. Mukadderat (talk) 22:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

SECOND REqUEST

PLEASE EXPLAIN why the article is NOT tagged as "Protected"? Mukadderat (talk) 22:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

user:Keilana placed the protection, so she'd be the one to ask why a tag wasn't added at the same time. Probably just an oversight. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Where did the Mahatmas come from?

Were they all "ordained" (pick your own word if needed) by Prem Rawat personally? Were all Mahatmas equal in status? In knowledge/ability? Could any Mahatma give the Knowledge (during the DLM days?)? Anyone have any good sources on the Mahatmas specifically? -- Maelefique ^(talk) 05:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Many of the Indian mahatmas that came to the West were mahatmas of Shri Hans. Newer ones were chosen and briefed by Mata Ji. After the split most of the Indian mahatmas returned to India and Rawat appointed 4 western mahatmas and over the next five years he appointed more than 80 non-Indian mahatmas. And changed the name to "initiators" and then "instructors". In the 80s & 90s people applied and some would be chosen. In the 90s new instructors were approved by the existing instructor team. Some were full time and some part time. There wasn't a hierarchy as such, but the older Indian mahatmas were respected and deferred to by the younger in the early 70s and when they got too old to travel they retired to an ashram. There was no hierarchy with western ones. All mahatmas could give Knowledge to anyone in the 70s. This is from personal experience and a little research.Momento (talk) 06:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Momento forgot to mention the first western mahatma, Saphlanand, who was appointed by Rawat in India. He is no longer a follower and contributes to the online discussion forums where he has recounted many stories from those early days in India. --John Brauns (talk) 20:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's helpful. So after the split all mahatmas were appointed by Prem Rawat personally, with the exception of those original Indian mahatmas that didn't leave? Do we know anything about mahatmas that were in the ashrams when they closed? -- Maelefique ^(talk) 06:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Rawat appointed the mahatmas after the split but in the 90s the existing instructor team would decide who would be appointed. No Indian mahatmas retired in the west, almost all of them went back to India after the split and retired to ashrams there. Presumably those who were loyal to Rawat ended up in his ashrams and those loyal to Mataji went to Satpal's. Western instructors were usually self supporting and did the job for a few years.Momento (talk) 06:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

In my research I have not found any sources about mahatmas, besides a mention in Melton's The Encyclopedia of American Religions that they teach four yoga techniques as a personal representative of Guru Maharaj Ji. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 08:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't found much about them either, doesn't that seem a little strange? Not strange as in conspiracy-strange, just strange as in odd-strange. -- Maelefique ^(talk) 15:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing strange about it - apart from the initial blaze of publicity about the boy God from India, Rawat has always been, and continues to be, an obscure figure attracting little academic interest. Consequently the best sources for information about him are those who have been on the inside of the movement. Current followers sadly will only give the party line, which leaves former followers the only ones with the detailed information, and the openness to share it. Unfortunately, until a trusted academic or reputable newspaper does a serious study of Rawat using the resources that are now available, contributors to the Rawat articles will have to scratch around for sources that can be used. --John Brauns (talk) 20:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Haan's 1981 account ([2]) gives some detail about the mahatmas, by and large consistent with Momento's account above (e.g. renaming to "initiators", p. 47; privileged to give Knowledge and in high esteem within the movement, p. 37-38; their number reduced to about 50 shortly before autumn 1981, p. 57 footnote 3; etc).

Note that at /scholars Melton is not the only one mentioning mahatmas. Some other authors also give detail, e.g. from India; saffron robe (Geaves); "at this writing, all but one of Guru Maharaj Ji's some two thousand mahatmas are from India or Tibet" (Messer 1976); etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

From what other sources have said, the function of Mahatmas/Instructors in giving Knowledge has now been replaced by the series of DVDs known as "The Keys." Does anyone know if they still exist, in this or some other role, today? Msalt (talk) 20:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they still exist - I understand instructors conduct the teaching of the techniques (Key 6), and help with any questions students have. --John Brauns (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

No. There are no instructors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

There were a few Indian Mahatmas that remained in the U.S. after the family split. One was Mahatma Guru Charanand Ji, who is now known as "Charanand," Mahatma Padarthanand, Mahatma Jagdeo, and Mahatma Fakiranand, (he was one of the two people who tried to murder Pat Halley in Detroit, Michigan). There were a few more. Many of the former western instructors are now ex-premies, including Mike Finch, who was also closely involved in Rawat's first travel to Britain and the U.S., (something that's been omitted in Cagan's book Peace is Possible). In the 70s and 80s Rawat chose all of the western instructors personally and held intensive workshop-type trainings known as "Initiator's Development Programs," or IDP. Here is a copy of the Instructor's Training Manual. Instructors still exist to assist people with Key 6, which is what people watch to receive the techniques of Knowledge. As John said, Rawat is not a famous person, and he has practically no name recognition. His notability and notoriety stems from the publicity he gained in the 1970s in the U.S. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

No, there are no more instructors. Sorry to disappoint you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, could you clarify whether you mean there are no more people given the title 'instructor' by Rawat or there are no more people who carry our the duties that instructors formerly carried out. I understand that the techniques are now taught by Rawat on DVD, but there was a time when the techniques were taught by Rawat in person and there were many instructors at that time. --John Brauns (talk) 23:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I would decline responding. This is not a discussion forum. You can go and ask a question in the Keys website. The customer reps there may be helpful in providing you with the information you are requesting. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It was you who used this talk page to make the unsourced claim that there are no more instructors, hence it is to you yourself that you should address your wikilawyering. Without the clarification I asked you to provide, your statement has no meaning. --John Brauns (talk) 08:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not clear on what you're saying jossi, is that your opinion, or a fact? -- Maelefique ^(talk) 14:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Fact. [3] The sessions are conducted via a video presentation. There is a person that runs the system that plays back the video presentation in which PR teaches the techniques himself (in a AV or usher role, very much uninvolved with the participants). The presentation is available in more than 50 languages, including many Indian and African dialects. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Jossi - that is interesting. I know we are straying a little off topic but does the person who runs the session have the authority to answer any questions the participants have? --John Brauns (talk) 15:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Off-topic indeed. The answer to your question is no. Let's stay on topic, shall we? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

From the website you provided jossi, do these telephone assistants not perform the same role?

“ If I have questions about the process or content of The Keys, is there someone I can call?
You can ask questions or make comments either at "Inquiries" on this website or by speaking with a telephone assistant at any time during the preparation process. ”

-- Maelefique ^(talk) 16:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

A phone assistant/customer service is not a "mahatma" or "instructor" :). In any case, we are veering off topic. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree, if the inquiries were only about process, but questions about content are also allowed, that would seem to be interpretive, ergo, seems much more like an instructor. Anyways, as you say, we're a little off topic here, so let's move on. -- Maelefique ^(talk) 17:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Downton and Divinity

Downton says "We learned from the Mahatma that, if Jesus Christ was our master that was fine because Guru Maharaj Ji, in essence, was no different from Jesus Christ". Does that sound like a claim of divinity to anyone else? -- Maelefique ^(talk) 07:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

It is from the mahatma.Momento (talk) 08:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

And a representative of Prem Rawat, who's sole purpose there is to help teach people Prem Rawat's ideas. -- Maelefique ^(talk) 08:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

That was certainly supposed to be their "sole purpose." Being human, a lot of them inserted other purposes. That sort of hyperbole was far from rare. Rumiton (talk) 12:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

How funny. Ruminton's hyperbole here is more misleading than the Mahatma! He at least taught simply and honestly what he'd been taught. Ruminton and Momento want to blame him and his like, in order to let Prem Rawat off the hook. It's that simple. Prem Rawat, or Maharaji or Guru Maharaj Ji (as he was then known) believed he was Divine - which is no doubt where the Mahatma got confirmation of his belief or heard it in the first place. Maelefique you will shortly see how current followers (who really want to own this article and are succeeding) will bend over backwards to assert their revisionist spin on the past - especially when it comes to Rawat's claims of Divinity - which have been discussed ad nauseam. Ruminton and Jossi have all made the most absurd arguments to prove Rawat said only he wasn't Divine - when in fact he made it quite clear he was a God man, not only in the league of Christ and Krishna, but actually greater. "I have come with more power than ever before". Just read the history of my (deleted) Talk Page and see how Momento squirms to get out of this even when faced with incontrovertible evidence.PatW (talk) 14:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

If only people would simply look up a dictionary. Divine means = of, from, or like God or a god. According to Rawat we are all of, from or like God and so is he.Momento (talk) 14:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't quote anything regarding the word Divine, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I did quote Rawat's representative stating that Rawat was the same as Christ. If that's what his staff were telling people, then that's notable. I'm sure it certainly wouldn't have hurt him from a recruitment standpoint. -- Maelefique ^(talk) 15:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

What's the dictionary definition got to do with it anyway? Momento is now insinuating that Rawat considers us all equal. Well yes he did say we all have the potential to be as wise as him, but he also said he would always be ahead of us in those enlightenment stakes. So that's his rationale for the need for a Master. And why did Rawat encourage people to worship him as The Superior Power in Person if he so equal? He encouraged people to sing those words to his picture every morning and night and to him in person whilst he sat dressed up as the Hindu Lord Krishna. I don't like to have to rub this in but why are followers so shy about this? I don't feel the need to lie about it or pretend it didn't happen, I was there; and for your information, neither do plenty of other people who were there (and that includes current followers I know). It's almost as if there is some secret request from Prem Rawat that only certain followers (Ruminton, Momento and Jossi) post or edit here. Why else would there be such a strange denial about this? It is not a widely held view that Rawat did not consider himself very much a superior being who alone has the 'keys' to life's ultimate purpose - which included recognising Him as 'The Superior Power in Person'. Come on, surely there are some other followers out there prepared to come here and point out how wrong Momento and Ruminton are about the past. (Jossi is very silent about all this of course). Perhaps I should dig out the words to that song which Rawat had followers sing to him in the West right up until the early eighties and probably still does. (I wouldn't know about that). Maelefique, Will Beback, would like me to post those words here to help you get the gist? Would that be appropriate? Jossi?PatW (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer PatW, but unless you can quote the words from a source we can use, along with a source saying it was used by the premies, I don't think it will help us too much, and I think I pretty much have the gist of things anyway, I don't wanna speak for Will, he doesn't need me to, but I think he's got a pretty good handle on the situation as well. It's only slightly relevant anyway, if PR's representatives were comparing him to Christ, that might be notable. I don't hear a lot about priests saying the Pope is Buddha, as hyperbole or otherwise (because if they did, oh, it would be newsworthy!). -- Maelefique ^(talk) 23:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No need for priests in Rawat's case. He proclaimed his divine status himself on many occasions. One has only to read his speeches from DLM magazines from the time. I have a question. You have already resisted the use of Sophie Colliers book which was used here in a highly selective manner to illustrate how Rawat said to reporters that he was not God. What was omitted was the surrounding context which clearly indicated that Collier saw how Rawat spoke out of both sides of his mouth about such matters. Ie. gave his followers a far different impression. (I argued ad nauseam about that). Had someone then pointed out we can't use Collier because she's just a stoned follower then that would have neatly solved that problem. (Actually I've read Collier and I thought her book was intelligent and honest). In the past I limited my involvement here to trying to establish ground rules on what publications were permissable. I (unlike Momento and Ruminton} made the gesture of not editing until that was clear. That argument became entrenched and unclear despite Jossi's apparent' uber-clarity. Now we still have Ruminton and Momento warning everyone to observe BLP when editing here, as if they really know what that means. Frankly I think nobody really knows what these policies allow or disallow. Everyone (including neutral people with much experience) seems to have a different interpretation. Vassayana seemed to think that even Primary Sources were OK if used sensitively. I pointed out that the DLM magazines are available in many public libraries (ready public availability seemed to be a criteria). The devil is in the detail. What and whos 'sensitively is needed when using sources'? Jossi, Ruminton and Momento always shout 'IT IS PERFECTLY CLEAR' but I don't see it. They seem to exploit the vagueness to twist things to suit their own POV which, given their position as having strong views on the matter, is hardly surprising. One thing that has never been established is what sources can be used. And if there is accord on that then these guys have the books. Do you or Will have them too? How can you tell if stuff is cherry-picked if you don't have the books? Even when sources are approved they then argue that the people are expressing a minority view or it's not suitable for a BLP. It's just a no win situation. Now Collier is not ok to use... once it was. Who decides eventually?PatW (talk) 09:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC) PatW (talk) 09:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Deciding on good sources is always one of the toughest choices when putting together an article. It is not important that the sources be "readily available", but I would agree it is important that the sources are available somehow. I do not know Will, so again, I cannot answer for him in terms of what books Will has, but without getting into a "Mine's bigger than yours" argument, I think it's safe to say my access is at least as complete as anyone's, with the possible exception of jossi who seems to have access to specific archives that he can refer to very quickly when he needs to find an opposing view and EV's archives (which I'm starting to think may be related/connected). EV in particular seems to keep a lot of material around for the sole purpose of discrediting others, which I must say I find a little odd for an "enlightened" organization. -- Maelefique ^(talk) 15:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Your comment is unnecessary, unhelpful, and inappropriate for these pages. If you could refactor that comment and stay on-topic, it would be most appreciated. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yours is redundant. And as a blanket statement, I disagree with you entirely. Which comment are you referring to? That good sources are important? Availability of sources may be an issue? I don't know Will? I have access to a lot of books? You have access to a lot of books? EV's collection has a lot of books? You might have access to EV's collection? EV uses its collection to discredit people? Or that I find that odd? I'm not sure what it is you're objecting to, if you could clarify, I may be able to help. -- Maelefique ^(talk) 17:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, this conversation is far from useful and off-topic. You are assuming that (a) EV "keeps a lot of material around for the sole purpose of discrediting others"; (b) "jossi who seems to have access to specific archives that he can refer to very quickly when he needs to find an opposing view"; (c) then you are stating another off-topic comment about EV being "a little odd for an "enlightened" organization. Keep these comments to yourself, and do not mis-use these pages: Stay on-topic. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

This thread seems to have wondered far from its starting point. If I may make an observation about the suject and the DLM movement, there appears to have been a disconnect between what the subject said about himself and what his adherents, even the most senior followers, said about him. To boil it down, we have many quotes of him saying "I'm not god", and many quotes of his followers saying something like "he's god". This disconnect was so well known that he was asked about it during a press conference in 1973. As for the here and now, I perceive that some editors want to find proof that the subject called himself "god", while others want to disprove any such findings. My suggestion is to "cover the controversy". We should cover both what the subject said about himself and what his official followers said about him. Some of the latter may belong more in "DLM" or "Teachings", but it should be covered here too at least briefly. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this discussion suffers to some extent from the same old misunderstanding about the word "God", etc. In Eastern religion -- Taoism, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism -- it is assumed that all so-called "enlightened teachers" are essentially the same. The inward reality of one is no different from that of any other (though their modes of expression may be, depending on the environment they find themselves in). You have the same idea in sufism – every sufi is supposed to be inwardly the same as any other, their inner realisation is the same (and sufis regard Jesus as a sufi ...). And from what I've read it is quite possible to have two sufi teachers teaching in close geographical proximity, each of them claiming to be the Qutb, which is kind of like the navel of the world. What has to be understood here is that the "navel of the world" is not a location, it is a quality that the teacher impersonates. It can be manifested in more than one place. Hence two teachers both claiming to be the Qutb are not necessarily in conflict (though their disciples may be) as to who is "the real Qutb". What matters is that each teacher is the Qutb, or centre of attention, to his disciples. Now as an encyclopedia we should exhibit at least a moderate familiarity with Eastern religious thought when it comes to articles in this field, and not play schoolboy pranks like "he claimed he was Jesus". The understanding of "God" in these religions is fundamentally different from that in exoteric Christianity (as pointed out by van der Lans and Schnabel). Jayen466 20:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Your observation about Eastern and particularly Hindu concepts of God seem correct. And this encyclopedia should try to give the most correct interpretations. The differing views may explain the differing statements made by the subject and his followers. It may be that Davis was not truly aware of the Eastern concept of god so he conflated it with his own Western concept of God. Anyway, it's not for us to go back and correct what Davis, et al., said. I again suggest that the way to handle this is to report what Rawat said about himself and what his followers said of him, even if they are contradictory. As a great Yankee philospher once said, "when you come to a fork in the road, take it." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

:-)) Agreed, and well put. Jayen466 20:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Nah, Jayen, it's not about a misunderstanding of Eastern religious terminology. Rawat has claimed he's greater than God all of the time from the time he came to the western countries. People can claim that it was the mahatmas, but there were plenty of western initiators/instructors around the world, and that's what was taught, and Rawat hand-picked and trained those instructors intensively. They were his agents. This isn't about a confusion about eastern versus western definitions of "God" or "Jesus," and this difficulty really has nothing to do with anyone's misconceptions about Eastern religious concepts versus western Judeo/Christian concepts about the terms "God" or "Lord." If you read the words of the English version of Arti that was sung in all of the western ashrams, communities, and to his face (in person when he was sitting on a stage) dressed up in the Krishna costume, it's more than obvious who he thinks he is and evidence enough of, not only his belief in his own divinity (greater than God) but that he encourages and has taught about his divinity throughout the 70s to the present day. He just gave the press a very different response -- he'd deny it. The problem with this article is the same one that is found with many NRMs that have a living leader who is worshipped as divine: The real truth isn't told about the leader's personal divinity when introduced to public, hence, there is one story told to the public, and the true story is told as people become indoctrinated towards receiving the techniques of Knowledge. I can provide plenty of quotes of Rawat's that tell the story of how he promotes himself as God in a bod. But, I'll then be accused of starting a "quote war." You won't get the real, true story out of adherents, because they're not allowed to discuss it anymore, especially in public. Sylviecyn (talk) 20:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The full quote is "God is great but Guru is greater than God because he reveals God".Momento (talk) 22:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

See Guru#Guru_and_God ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

There is some truth in what Jayen says about there being room for multiple incarnations generally in Hindu sects. But pease don't think you can teach me about this Jayen- I and many others posting here are educated in these matters. The situation you describe is sort of true but it was not always accepted so happily and in Rawat's case he was very adamant about his unique status. You do not consider mentioning the phenomenon of 'Succession Disputes' which characterise Hindu sects. All scholars of Hinduism talk about this. Read Jurgensmeyer if in doubt. There was often violent disagreement between sects, in fact Rawats fathers sect attracted considerable extremely violent opposition from opposing groups- namely the Arya Samaj. This is well documented. Also when Prem Rawat's mother and brother tried to take control of DLM in India there was also violence and a court case with Rawat over property rights - which Rawat effectively lost; the judge reprimanding both parties for being manifestly 'ungodly' in their disagreement. Rawats brother now claims to be the true successor of the Guru Mantle as does Prem Rawat but there is no agreement that they are both authentic. (although they essentially teach the same meditation and Bhakti (devotional path).

• In answer to the question, "Do you think that there is only one Perfect Master"? Rawat said: "You see –here I want to be very frank –people come to me and ask me about this, and they say, 'What is your opinion about a Perfect Master? Is there one, is there two?' I tell them my opinion that there is only one Perfect Master. Because perfectness, is one, not two, not three. So there is only one Perfect Master in this world. And because he is perfect, that’s it..He is perfect. You just can’t divide perfect".
• This posted here by Revera:

It's a historical fact that Rawat allowed himself to be promoted as being more than just another 'guru'. The back cover of the book "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?" (published by Bantam, Nov. 1973) asks this further question: "Why do more than six million people around the world claim he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet? ..." Rawat was educated at a Catholic school and Christian belief informed much of his teachings in the 1970s - especially at the Millennium event in Houston, '73. Look at this picture to see what I mean.

• Here's Rawats fathers own published words from 'Hans Yog Prakash': My Guru is the incarnate Lord of this time. I bow before my Guru, who is greater than Christ or Buddha, for each of them was the servant of his Satguru.
• And young Rawat in his famous 'Peace Bomb' satsang: "Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......"PatW (talk) 22:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

We have been through this so many times that it is becoming really boring. The end of the Peace Bomb satsang reads: "What can I say about Guru Maharaj Ji who has sent me amongst you and has given me this chance to serve you? The name of such a merciful Guru Maharaj Ji is Shri Hans Ji Maharaj. , which makes it quite clear about who the 13-year old PR is referring to. You may want to read this, that explains the dynamics quite well: The guru-disciple relationship (page 264 and forward): Brooks, Douglas H. (2000). Meditation Revolution. Motilal Banarsidass,India. ISBN 81-208-1648-X.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

(OT) From Muktananda: The moment a disciple merges into the Guru, neither the disciple nor the Guru exist as a separate entity any longer. The moment a devotee merges into the Lord he is no longer a devotee and the Lord no longer a separate entity. Names and forms disappear, Guru and disciple, Lord and devotee are relative terms, one depending on the other; if one in these pairs vanishes, the other vanishes by itself" - In any case, I think this is enough philosophy for a Friday for me, which btw, I need to prepare for tomorrow's Passover :). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Pat, you are right that succession disputes and splits in movements are a common occurrence. And no doubt some, many or all such teachers are frauds. It would be a miracle if there weren't any. ;-) Yet what Rawat says about the indivisibility of the perfect master makes perfect sense in Hindu theology. The satguru is primarily a divine inner quality, that is, by definition indivisible and beyond duality. Likewise, it is in keeping with the theology that each guru promotes himself to the exclusion of others -- it is assumed that other gurus can speak for themselves. The guru is supposed to make himself available to the one(s) in front of him, and arouse their attention to a sufficient degree that they see in him what there is to be seen. Words such as "greatest" are not comparative forms, but superlatives and an indication of supposed exaltation. The apparent comparison implied in Shri Hans' claiming that his satguru is greater than Jesus or Buddha is more properly seen as his saying that the satguru is real, here and now, while Buddha and Jesus are mere concepts. In fact, the mindset of comparison is held to be incompatible with disciplehood; I think that applies to most, if not all master/disciple-based systems. The basic ingredient is the disciple's trust. Moreover, it is held in various mystical traditions that one teacher may denounce another in the sharpest terms, while knowing full well that the other teacher is as realised as he is himself. There are many reasons for this – stopping the disciple's mind from wandering in an unproductive and speculative way, creating situations, etc. "Things that look opposed may in reality be working together." Even the question as to whether someone is a true or false teacher is to some extent a non-question; for if the disciple's introspective experience is real, the teacher has done his job, whatever his own inner state, and is held to deserve gratitude. It is clear that the potential for abuse in the master/disciple system is infinite, and it is certainly questionable whether the system has any validity at all. Incidentally, the same can be said for all other religions as well. A difference is though that most disciples exercise some personal choice in the selection of their master, while affiliation with the established religions based on the teachings of historical figures is largely determined by an accident of birth. Incidentally, Maharaji's reference to the "religion of humanity" in the above quote was probably a reference to the Manav Dharam that his brother uses as a label these days. Cheers, Jayen466 01:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)