Talk:Russo-Georgian War

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POW's

Will someone edit the casualties section of the infobox, it should be put in the Russian part of the casualties section 19 missing (5 captured), as the reference I provided confirms that 5 soldiers or pilots were captured, also the given reference and plus this one [1] confirm that 15 georgian soldiers were captured during the conflict in South Ossetia and another 22 were captured today in Poti so it should be put in the georgian casualty section something like this: 215 soldiers killed, 300 missing and 37 captured, based on these two references. Will anyone make this edit?

== Number of Casualties ==--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia states 65 dead russians, 121 wounded 8 tanks and 2 aircrafts lost. They state, 4000 ( of 2000 georgian soldiers who took part in the operations ) were killed.

Of course, much more than 2000 georgian troops were commited - even reservists saw some action (mostly being bombed while moving as reinforcements out of Gori). 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Rocki tunnel, Georgian Battalion shot the whole ammunition at every russian tank that left :the tunnel, at least, 12 destroyed. ( crew: 48 dead ), before leaving

Stupid lies, both ends of Roki tunnel are being heavily guarded all the time, and were never challenged. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, the protection of the Roki tunnel was the more important task for ossetians than the defence of their own capital. "Unofficial" picture of that war shows, that the most part of ossetian forces was used to stop georgians whose went in the direction of this tunnel, so in Tskhinval (it's the ossetian name, Tskhinvali - the georgian one... And what name should we use?..), the second target of georgian forces, defence forces have been presented mainly by ossetian militia (russian term "opolchenie") and peacekeepers. (Pubkjre (talk) 16:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC))

that "-i" is nominative case ending in georgian language. Ossetians don't use it. On russian maps, however, it can be spelled either way. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

"Not "stupid lies", but artillery. The Russians also suffered losses as they came through the Roki Tunnel, which connects South Ossetia to the neighboring region of North Ossetia in Russia proper. Russian national security analysts said there was no air cover to protect Moscow’s forces in their first minutes outside the safety of the mountain tunnel. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/europe/17military.html?em=&pagewanted=print Georgian artillery was surpressed by the heavy bombing only later. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Nothing but speculation w/o any specific details and specific references in this article. And artillery "hitting every tank" with indirect fire is definitely stupid. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Kodori heights, georgian regiment held every position against 5 russo-abkhaz attacks before retreating back to Tbilisi. 584 abkhaz dead, 96 russian dead. 1 Grad destroyed, 12 armored vehicles destroyed ( crew: at least 24 dead )

Abkhaz losses - 1 dead, 1 wounded. Georgian losses also presumed to be small - they fled the area without hardly any fight after their main ammo depot was destroyed by abkhaz artillery. Russian troops didn't participate. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, abkhazian side claims that all military operations, include air strikes, in Kodori were performed only by abkhazian forces, without russians. Sometimes georgians claims that russians bombs Kodori, after that abkhazians officials says that those air strikes were done by abkhazian air forces. I think that it's possible to found sources with such abkhazian claims... (Pubkjre (talk) 16:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC))

Gurja, GRU elite special forces knocked out when engaged and ambushed by georgian :commandos Casulties: 45 of 80 russian dead, 2 georgian commandos.

Another fantasy with no proof whatsoever. There is, however, a video of 22 corpses of georgian commandos rotting in some forest area near Tskhinval. Georgian government was offered to retrieve them after the ceasefire, but gave no answer. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle for 12 villages around Tskhinvali, heavy fights, high losses on both sides. Casulties: 125 georgian, 145 russian. ( Disadvantage for russian forces )

Russian column passed georgian villages unopposed all the way to Tskhinval. The only somewhat stiff resistance was met around Zemo-Nicozi. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

1st battle of Tskhinvali: Georgian artillery destroyed ossetian positions around the capitol, :200-1000 ossetian dead, Ossetian tanks and armor do not exist anymore. Georgian troops :enter the city, loosing 4 T-72 MBT's. Heavy fights in the city. 45 georgian dead 3 tanks lost, 300 ossetian dead 8 tanks given up, 18 :russian peacekeepers dead 150 wounded, retreat of Russo-Ossetian Forces.

Ossetians didn't have any tanks in Tskhinval. And before the fight, all of ossetian armor was kept locked by peacekeepers, as previous agreements dictate. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

2st battle of Tskhinvali: Russia advances against Tskhinvali, Georgian positions repell 7 attacks destroying 8 russian T-72 MBT's ( crew: 32 dead ) and killing 36 russians . Russian Air Force bombs armor and positions in Tskhinvali. 18 dead georgians. Georgia leaves Tskhinvali because of heavy bombardement and ceasefire agreement.

8 russian T-72 MBTs carry 24 crew members, not 32. I.e. crew of T-72 is only 3 men, not 4 ones like in many other MBTs. So, a source for such information is at least "strange". (Pubkjre (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC))

Yeah, this kid is totally unaware of even such basic facts, and still tries to fool us adults here :) 195.218.210.190 (talk) 01:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian Air Force 7 days bombardament kills 42 georgian soldiers and destroys up to 20 :tanks and armor in Georgia. Georgian Special Forces and Units shoot down 22 russian SU-24/SU-25/MiG-29 and one Tu-22 with Stingers and light AA systems. Heavy AA batteries ( like S-120 ) were never used in this 7 days.

The entire "war" lasted only 5 days. Besides, last georgian radar was knocked out on the third night. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Gori: 1000 russian airborne troops try to take Gori by surpirse attack from sky. Operation failed. Number of Casulties unknown, Georgians still controlled the city. Russian armor advances from Tskhinvali to Gori. Georgian troops leave the city to show the rest of :the world, what are the true interests of Putin. Taking over whole Caucasia.

Battle of Gori: georgian troops see their Magnificient Supreme Commander scared of some unknown threat (a ghost perhaps?), panic and run all the way to Tbilisi, leaving huge stockpiles of weapons and abandoned vehicles behind them. :) Russian air force spared their sore asses because fleeing troops mixed with refugees on the road. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

During the ceasefire agreement a convoy of georgian soldiers and special units were :ambushed by russian tanks and armors, leaving 18 dead georgians and 3 destroyed georgian :Toyota SF jeeps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL (talk • contribs) 11:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Ehm, and what are the sources you used? Alæxis_¿question? 11:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as of now, no sources are available for such details. But what ComanL wrote here largely coincides with my own sources among the Georgian military and Russian journalists. There are some other things I would like to add to the description of the Russia-Georgia war, but I can not obviously provide published sources. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 11:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The above estimate of 444 (assuming all downed Russian pilots as well as the "1000 airborne troops over Gori" survived) exceeds the official Georgian estimate of 400, so a source would be most interesting to see. It would also be nice to trace the Russian claim of 4000 Georgian casualties to a Russian source. --Illythr (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Still, I see too many POVs "Georgian troops leave the city to show the rest of :the world, what are the true interests of Putin. Taking over whole Caucasia" "Georgia leaves Tskhinvali because of heavy bombardement and ceasefire agreement" and not a single reliable source. Also, I see the user having a pro-georgian POV in some articles. It would be interesting if it could be proven, though--Jaimevelasco (talk) 17:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I also see these problems but as long as no references whatsoever are provided there's no point in arguing about them. Alæxis_¿question? 18:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I want to see CormanL's sources. However, his "inside sources" seem to mesh with rumors of something of a Russian military debacle that I've heard (along the lines of thirty Russian armored vehicles destroyed and hundreds dead in the first day of fighting alone) and their reluctance to advance on Tblisi outright. One would think that if the Russian military was up to the task of overthrowing the Georgian government they would have done so. What, do any of us here seriously think world public opinion will stop an army in its tracks? 66.66.154.162 (talk) 04:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

For the same Reason US led forces did not advance on Baghdad after the Gulf war: the Georgian Regime is already unstable and the Armenian population in the south is agitating for independence. It seems Moscow calculates that it only needs to wait for a new pro-Russian Govt to take power. As for the War itself the Russians did suffer significant casualties in the Initial attack mostly due to the fact that the “peacekeepers” were light infantry unsuited for frontline combat. Combat effectively ended by the third day, with Russian forces and allies Seizing key Georgian bases in Gori, Poti and Senaki and subsequently destroying all remaining Georgian military assets. It seems that the Russians simply plan to cary out a Serbian scenario and encourage the Georgian government to collapse rather than storming Tbilisi and Facing bloody Urban warfare. As for the losses Georgian and international media have only shown wreckage belonging to four planes and I simply don’t find the Georgian Gov’t who was making outlandish “Bagdad bob” like claims of Victory at Roki Tunnel to be a credible source. Freepsbane (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Horseshit. This war has no resemblance whatsoever to Desert Storm. Given the generally abysmal combat performance of Russian forces in the war (I do not ever recall them having captured a Georgian position by force of arms, only occupying abandoned positions - and their "air superiority" seems to have been largely ineffective) it stands to reason that they would be leery of advancing on Tblisi where essentially the entire Georgian military had dug in almost entirely intact in both personnel and heavy equipment (the Russians appear to have captured or destroyed very little of their stuff). The Georgians appear to have made a very sound move by withdrawing and concentrating their forces to fight a decisive battle at Tblisi subsequent to their initial failure to stop the Russians at the border. The Russians may be able to beat their chests and let their militia dogs run wild but they sure as hell will not overthrow the Georgian government or keep it out of NATO or the EU at this point. Their troops would be slaughtered like cattle in Tblisi. 128.153.195.109 (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Against all your unsupported claims, with no sources whatsoever, I can only point to the numerous media that went from Tblisi to Gori and claimed that they found no georgian forces anywhere on sight. Only empty or looted georgian tanks. If Russia had wanted to go to Tblisi, they would have found no opposition. "Georgians were witnessed by the Telegraph in a full scale disorganised and panicked retreat from Gori" [Georgia: Russia fighting on several fronts as Georgian troops withdraw to defend Tbilisi] And about the abysmal performance of the russians, well, they just won the war, retook Tskhinvali, occupied part of Georgia, destroyed one of the main georgian bases, in Gori, occupied Poti... It wasn't a fair fight, btw. The air superiority of the russians was eventually overwhelming. At least that's my POV. --Jaimevelasco (talk) 18:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

American reconnaisance did not find a single Japanese military position on the entire island of Okinawa before we invaded. Concealment is a basic principle of warfare and the Georgians appear to have been practicing it. Defensive works that can be observed by media in a situation where the enemy possesses air superiority are worse than useless, they are a waste of soldiers and equipment and effectively hand propaganda victories to the enemy. If the Russians had advanced they would have found no opposition until they walked into an ambush and were massacred.

I tend not to take most media outlets very seriously when warfare comes up - a 24-hour news cycle means their judgement on current events is generally hasty at best and laughable at worst. These are the same people who declared that the offensive against the Sadrists back in March was a complete failure a few days before they effectively surrendered. Accurate information has to be derived from -facts- reported by the media, not their generally uninformed opinions on the subject.

In this case the facts are that Georgian troops retreated to Tblisi (I saw no real evidence of a disorganized rout - one traffic accident and a few pieces of abandoned artillery do not a rout make) from all across the country and seem to have dropped off the radar screen. There are two possibilities arising from this, either that the Georgian military has disbanded itself a-la Iraq 2003 or that they have established a defensive plan with proper operational security. I believe any rational analysis of the situation over the last couple of weeks leads to the latter conclusion. 128.153.195.195 (talk) 19:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

You can't compare an empty island where the japanese had plenty of time to prepare and to hide, to a small country with plenty of people or civilians. You just can't hide a whole army for days, almost weeks. The number of tanks the russians claim to have taken is about 55. I don't have to believe their words, but the words "routed" and "full scale disorganised and panicked retreat from Gori" are not mine. Maybe it's actually all a plan. Maybe the georgians let the russians enter Georgia and Gori all as part of a huge plan that would allow the georgians to wipe out the russians. But common sense says that the most obvious solution is the truth. That the georgian army was suffered too heavy loses. If they still had some army left, they could have done something, like parade around as they occupy gori again after the cease fire, or to put some pressure behind the russians to make them leave faster. Right now the ones going around the former occupied territory are not the georgian army but the georgian police. The russians for days were getting closer to Tblisi, then leaving again. Nobody saw any unir of georgian military in their way.--Jaimevelasco (talk) 10:40, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you can hide a whole army for weeks at a time in a small European country while conducting combat operations. It's not even that difficult. See Kosovo War. Given the combination of piss-poor intelligence-gathering capabilities on the Russian side and the fact that Western journalists are not out breaking brush looking for camouflaged Georgian positions, I find it unremarkable that the Georgians have maintained operational security in this case. In any event Western journalists are unanimous that there is in fact a high level of Georgian military activity in and around Tblisi and that Russian probes towards the capital (obvious attempts to determine the extent of Georgian defenses by reconnaisance in force) have been responded to by Georgian troops publicly moving out and blocking the roads before the Russians could get close to Tblisi, so that part of your thesis doesn't hold water.

Your attempt to use Occam's Razor is laughable. The Georgians suffered about a hundred dead out of a full-time army of 10,000 and minor equipment losses, mostly in the form of obsolete and unreliable Soviet vehicles. You're telling me they're out of the fight? Occam's Razor dictates that something's going on here behind the convenient story of a Georgian "defeat". I think the Russians know very well that their short, victorious war will turn into a fiasco if they push too hard. 128.153.195.195 (talk) 20:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Occam's Razor says the most obvious answer is usually the correct one. You are saying that just because the russian army took Senaki, Poti, sinking some ships, part of Georgia, and Gori, while the georgian army "IN panic and utter confusion, the Georgian army fled the town of Gori last night, chased by a seemingly invisible Russian advance. As has so often been the case in this short but brutal war, this was pure chaos" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2542751/Georgia-Chaos-and-panic-as-people-flee-the-Russian-advance.html, just because the president of Georgia has been forced to sign a document he didn't want to (he had to be convinced), just because the russians took at least 65 T-72 SIM-1 (i'm not counting if they found anything on the abandoned military bases, there is a report from Russia they found 15 more in Gori) and some other military hardware http://sp.rian.ru/onlinenews/20080820/116157778.html http://forum.warfare.ru/special/2008/08/16/russia-captured-a-fifth-part-of-the-georgian-tanks/ http://sp.rian.ru/onlinenews/20080819/116133327.html, it doesn't really mean Georgia has been defeated. Hell, they were about to win!

"Occam's Razor dictates that something's going on here behind the convenient story of a Georgian "defeat"." You know you could at least provide some sources to show that the georgians were about to wipe out the floor with the russians, since for some people, it seems like, you know, the georgians lost. No offense.

I still think it's a pity the georgians lost, though. --Jaimevelasco (talk) 12:02, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

So you're basing your opinion of a Russian victory on a combination of a newspaper that has printed Iraqi insurgent propaganda in the past (after their reporting during the Iraqi offensive in Basra I no longer consider the Telegraph to be a reliable source), Saakashvilli justifiably wanting to a continue the conflict and beat on the Russians to the point that they would not hang around occupying half his country, and Russian lies? No Russian source is reliable here. They have provided photographic documentation of perhaps ten or twelve "captured" T-72s (which could have easily been drawn from all those T-72s of the exact same make and model the Russians have on hand), about as many BMPs and a couple of unmistakably Georgian vehicles (which were completely destroyed or had been previously verified photographically as having broken down). It's called critical thinking. See through the propaganda.

If you want my sources? Look at the casualty box. Then look at the list of Georgian units actually committed to the fighting. One brigade of five. Georgian casualties were low and few of their units actually engaged. This makes Russian claims of huge amounts of captured Georgian tanks doubly ridiculous - the Georgians only -have- eighty or so T-72s. Ergo, they prepared to fight a decisive battle at Tblisi and the Russians blinked and agreed to an advantageous ceasefire rather than see their short, victorious war turn into another Chechen debacle from biting off more than they could chew. CarbonArmor (talk) 04:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You are saying that the russian have not won. Wow, I think most people would say that they won. Can you provide ANY source saying that the russians lost? Can you provide ANY source saying that the georgians were about to win? I have shown my sources. If Saakashvilli had enough forces left, why did he agree to the ceasefire? Maybe you don't agree with the russians, but their claims are unoopposed. Again, just because an army hasn't suffered losses, it doesn't mean they are ready to fight.

Just because the casualties are low it doesn't mean they aren't defeated. The georgian army had 37.000 soldiers, and the reservist were about 100.000. But you don't need to kill everybody to win. Georgia had about 230 tanks at the beginning of the war(sources at the spanish wikipedia), how many do they have left? The russians defeated two brigades, pludered at least two military bases. That sounds as a lot of tanks to me. The russians claim to have taken at least 64 tanks. Are the georgians contesting that? How many planes do the georgians have left? Because from my POV, the georgian air force was destroyed. Or at least they are nowhere to be seen. "The 1st and 2nd Infantry Brigades along with the Independent Tank Battalion and most of the front line artillery units are no longer combat capable. There have been very significant losses in weapons, ammunition stocks and damage done to the military infrastructure" http://oraclesyndicate.twoday.net/stories/5133257/ "2nd Brigade - Suffered heavy losses in the Battle of the Kodori Valley" "4th Brigade - Most powerful of Georgia's Brigades. Spearheaded the attack onto South Ossetia. Suffered heavy loses in men and equipment"

Do you have ANY source that says that the georgians were prepared to fight a "decisive battle at Tblisi" ANY at all? Do you have ANY source that proves that the georgian army had enough strength left to DEFEAT the russians, that they would't break down like it happened in South Ossetia, Gori...? Pick western media, georgian media, whatever you want. But stop making claims how they would fight "a decisive victory" without a single source. --Jaimevelasco (talk) 12:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

So even by believing every lie told by Russian propaganda, the Georgians have three full brigades in combat condition (likely four, as the Georgians suffered no losses in Kodori) deployed in and around Tblisi and a further fifth that is in the process of reorganizing and which suffered minimal confirmed casualties. And you're telling me the Russians are not fully cognizant that attacking Tblisi would be walking to their deaths? Give me a break, this discussion is over. You just conceded regardless of your rhetoric otherwise.

And about unrefuted Russian claims: the Georgians have consistently kept their mouths professionally shut throughout this conflict rather than spout off like the increasingly-comical Russians. The Russian claims are facially ridiculous and no refutation is needed, nor should the Georgians feel obliged to give the Russians a real damage report by giving one. CarbonArmor (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I’d hardly call Western news friendly to Tbilisi Russian propaganda. In general most analysts, includining ones comprised of retired US officers such as Stratfor agree in the fact that the Georgian Air, armor and Sea forces are defunct at this point. The Georgians would never have retreated from Senaki the main airbase , along with Gori their logistical headquarters leaving all of their armor and ammunition to be seized by the ossets , and allowing the bear to seize Georgia’s main road if the situation were not dire. Georgia’s three mechanized infantry brigades have been defunct as of the twelfth. with the two functional brigades comprised of non-mechanized infantry that were not involved in Ossetia campaign. And while you did point out that Georgia’s Kodori forces retreated with minimal combat, you didn’t note that the Georgian’s abandoned their equipment in a disorganized retreat that followed the loss of Gori and its command and control functions. Further evidence that the Georgian army was defunct would be the fact that the weeks subsequent to the war saw Russian forces moving freely thorough Georgia, systematically destroying Georgian equipment and scuttling the surviving craft of the Georgia Navy in Poti. During this time the only opposition the Russians faced came from local police forces. Furthermore CarbonArmor it’s not an accepted practice in Wikipedia to go around around accusing, organisatons or individuals of treason as you have. Try to be more civil in the future.Freepsbane (talk) 04:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

And lastly, I'll say CarbonArmor that you still fail to provide any sources to back your claims that the georgian army was still combat ready and prepared to defeat the russians in Tblisi. Every report, western or russians, agrees on the fact that the georgians suffered a heavy defeat. If you have any sources show us, and stop giving us your totally unsupported POV.--Jaimevelasco (talk) 10:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

My POV is entirely supported by sources already available and by any low-level knowledge of military operations. Every reliable report is unanimous on the fact that relatively little combat actually took place and only a small amount of Georgian military equipment was lost and that the Georgian military is therefore almost completely intact and has withdrawn to Tblisi to fight a decisive battle at the capital rather than allow themselves to be overwhelmed piecemeal in the countryside. The facts underlying this interpretation of events are in the article, so I don't get why you're demanding sourcing. Rather than ask -me- for sources, I ask you two to provide assessments of the Georgian military's combat capability to support your views that DO NOT rely on Russian sources, which are universally unreliable.

I don't get your later line of accusation, Freepsbane. The Telegraph at one point printed Iraqi insurgent propaganda without basic fact-checking with Baghdad during the offensive against the Sadrists this March. It is not treasonous for a Western newspaper to print lies distributed by the enemy, it just compromises their journalistic integrity and ergo the Telegraph is not a reliable source. CarbonArmor (talk) 17:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

"My POV is entirely supported by sources already available" Actually, available only to you. Because YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE IN ALL THIS DISCUSSION TO PROVIDE A SINGLE SOURCE. I have been asking you for your sources since the beginning. You haven't given any. That's almost ridiculous. You just keep repeating "decisive battle" over and over without providing ANY proof. "the Georgian forces were no match for Russia’s hugely superior firepower." "We couldn’t handle it. The troops were very well prepared, but the air forces of Russia destroyed everything" “Without a doubt, there was absolutely nothing we could do against them (the Russians) once the planes were sent in,” says Temur Chachanidze, a former analyst at Georgia’s defence ministry and a journalist at the bi-weekly Arsenal military magazine. http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=236220&version=1&template_id=39&parent_id=21 "An independent Georgian military expert, Koba Liklikadze, said the U.S. training was not a deciding factor, attributing the army's loss to bad decisions by the government. Georgia declared a cease-fire too soon, he said, which demoralized the troops before most of them had a chance to fight." "The Georgian army has been dealt a harsh blow" "Many Georgian military bases, including the main U.S. training facility at Vasiani, were damaged or destroyed." "As soon as combat began, the army's communications network largely collapsed" "some of the American trainers spoke bluntly about problems with the Georgian troops, who one veteran sergeant said "got torn up real bad."" http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/19/europe/EU-Georgia-Military-Tested.php "Russia has achieved its goals, effectively creating a new reality on the ground, humiliating the Georgian military" "The road from Gori to Tbilisi was completely clear of Georgian forces, except for vehicles that had been abandoned" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/world/europe/13georgia.html

Russia easily smothered the smaller Georgian force. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/europe/17military.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1 When the Russian tanks moved forward to consolidate their control of the entrance to Gori, panic erupted among Georgian soldiers, who piled into their vehicles, some of them civilian models, and raced down the highway leading to Tbilisi, the Georgian capital 60 miles to the east. There was no clear sign of leadership among the troops, who took a hammering from Russian artillery and aircraft during the recent fighting.http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gTixpvigH9KqyxiYCosiqaIn1OQAD92I76M01

"The 1st and 2nd Infantry Brigades along with the Independent Tank Battalion and most of the front line artillery units are no longer combat capable. There have been very significant losses in weapons, ammunition stocks and damage done to the military infrastructure" http://oraclesyndicate.twoday.net/stories/5133257/ "2nd Brigade - Suffered heavy losses in the Battle of the Kodori Valley" "4th Brigade - Most powerful of Georgia's Brigades. Spearheaded the attack onto South Ossetia. Suffered heavy loses in men and equipment"

its conflict with Russia ends in swift defeat and humiliation. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7576305.stm

the BBC's Richard Galpin, who has spent the past two days travelling from the Black Sea port of Poti to Tbilisi, says Georgian forces seem to be surrendering control of the highway to the Russians

¿Had Enough sources already? All western sources, nice and tidy for you.

Do you remember the invasion of Iraq. Guess what? Out of an iraq army of 375.000 soldiers, the higuest estimate of dead is 45.000. More than 300.000 soldiers still alive, but they were just routed. They weren't in any position to fight. That's the same. Everybody agrees that the georgians lost, everybody but you. We are just repeating what everybody says. Stratfor, created by retired US officers (truly, an instrument of Russian propaganda) says that the Georgian Air, armor and Sea forces are defunct. You claim, against the opinion of EVERYBODY that it was just a strategic retreat to defeat the russians at Tblisi. In my POV, the russian air force was just wiping out the ground forces in Georgia and guess what, my POV is supported by multiple sources, that agree that the fact that the georgians simply lost. I know that you probably have more reliable sources that Stratfor, sources that prove how leaving Gori, their logistical headquarters; Poti; Senaki, main airbase; Kodori Valley, etc, etc, was just part of a georgian plan, a plan that explains why the georgians allowed the russian forces to move around Georgia destroying all the Georgian equipment they could find. would you be so kind as to prove us your superior sources? That is, if you have any.

And for now on, every time you make a claim, please give us some source. Because claiming that the georgians were about to defeat the russians is laughable at this point. --Jaimevelasco (talk) 03:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The facts reported in the sources provided universally support my POV. The amateurish analysis (including Stratfor, I read the parts of their report that were free and it shows no more insight into affairs than any of the other analyses you have provided - I do not care at all if there are ex-military personnel involved if they are still wrong) accompanying them is the only indicator of a Georgian defeat. Any reader of the news knows that military analysis in the Western media is generally wrong and that the only thing the media is useful for reporting are facts. Your comment about the 2003 Iraq War is simply laughable and I dismiss it. So, again - FACTS, NOT ANALYSIS, NOT ARMCHAIR GENERAL HYPERBOLE and NOT STATEMENTS DRAWN FROM RUSSIAN SOURCES reported by Western media indicative of a substantial Georgian defeat. Retreating to defend key regions in force at the cost of relatively unimportant peripheral areas is a strategy as old as time, my friend. CarbonArmor (talk) 23:08, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Please give us some source. Because claiming that the georgians were about to defeat the russians is laughable at this point

Since it's obvious already that you lack any source, that you are just giving your totally unsupported POV, since every single person that knows about the war know that the georgians lost, even the president of Georgia and the georgian media agree with that, I'll just keep repeating that sentence till you shows us your sources--Jaimevelasco (talk) 23:15, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgians (only a small part of the army commited to the fighting in SO) wiped out the floor with Ossetians/Russians during their initial offensive due to their enemy's lack of night vision equipment. Later, they hit Russians exiting the tunnel, ambushed and destroyed the first column in the city (including wounding of the overall Russian commander!) and managed to bring down one huge bomber and at least 3 other aircraft. Then the Russians finally managed to silence the Georgia's air defenses and proceeded to bomb the crap out of their forces in SO, resulting in a withdrawal to Gori first and then a panicky rout to Tbilisi - followed by a ceasefire (and massive looting and systematical destruction of Georgian military and civilian property, largely based on the infamous point 5 of the French-made treaty). I didn't read any analysis on what happened in Abkhazia yet. (sources: NYT: Russians Melded Old-School Blitz With Modern Military Tactics, AP: US trainers say Georgian troops weren't ready, AFP: Blown away: Georgian troops say air superiority won war, The Times: Russian fighting machine is showing its age, say military analysts) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Those reports say the opposite of what you claim. Nothing at all about "Wiping Floors" in Osset, or a column destroyed in Roki, just a bit about Shrapnel from small arms hitting the Lt.Gen and the reporters. The Reason why the initial Georgian attack overran defensive lines was due to the fact that the Ossetian rebels and Russian peacekeepers were Light Infantry: in other words they were nonmechanised infantry that lacked anti-armor Assets. After the Regular 58th entered the battle the engagements were totally one sided following a pattern similar to the Persian Gulf war (Kuwait)As the links you gave all say. Typing down claims that have nothing to do with the content and have soapbox claims such as having downed a “huge bomber” (A older Tu-22 used for recon) and having “wiped out the floor” simply don’t belong in Wikipedia; The fact that a commander was wounded by shrapnel when he had (foolishly) strayed outside the protection of his armor, Should not be given the Baghdad Bob treatment and somehow be interpreted into the (absurd) idea that a whole colum of T-80 tanks was wiped out. If such would have been accomplished it certainly would have been possible for Georgia to collapse the tunnel and cut of the invasion route. As we all know that didn’t happen, Georgian defensive lines collapsed by the 11th and Georgian forces abandoned expensive equipment in Gori and Senaki while retreating to the capital. Subsequently Russian, Abkhazian and Ossetian forces occupied former Georgian strongholds where the Ossets then reportedly proceeded to loot. Clearly having your logistical headquarters (Gori ) be seized along with your Naval headquarters (Poti) and a key airbase (Senaki) in one week of fighting is not a sign of victory. Freepsbane (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Freepsbane, I'm not ComanL. As of your thesis: Ossetians/Russians were totally owned at first, as the Georgians sized most of what their enemy claim is their capital city in just few hours (and due to the enemy's lack of night-vision equipment, not having less tanks - having more tanks in a city is a disputable adventage anyway, more like targets for the rooftop/basement RPG gunners like the Russians themselves learned in Grozny). Russian tanks were hardly all T-80s (or even T-72s) and their vehicles were in a bad mechanical shape (many simply broke down on the roads). Tu-22M actually is a "huge bomber" (AKA strategic bomber). Btw, another analitic article I forgot: War reveals Russia's military might and weakness (by AP). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

the Link You Gave cites no Observers or sources, it fails Verifiability criteria(one could make the same story about Our tanks in mosul with such standards) also note these are the same analists who predicted back on the 8th that this would turn out to be some sort or Russian version of the Lebanon war. As for your comment on the 22 you misunderstood my point; the Tu-22 used was a Recon aircraft (It's not very large, Smaler than a 160, and cost wise it’s far less expensive than a modern bomber such as the SU-34), and it’s loss is hardly significant (we lost 2 aircraft in the first night of the Gulf War). No western Media has actually ever claimed or validated the Roki story ; I doubt you can find a main stream source on either of your tank claims.(The 58th ‘s tanks are actually in beter shape than Our M1’s due to the favorable environment and low usage hours). And yes I don’t count five hundred lightly armed Russian Peacekeepers (who are nominally impartial) suffering fifteen casualties during the initial offensive to be part of the battle proper.Yes my point was that we must use sources that keep with Wikipedia’s verifiability standards, unsupported claims of smashing a convoy of MBTs simply won’t belong here especially because MS media has never shown any images or placed direct claims of it. And yes Russia did not use any armored vehicles older than a T-72 or BMP2 for this op(a significant portion of the tank’s were comprised of T-80s). It’s best for these rumors to wait and see if any evidence is provided before moving.Freepsbane (talk) 01:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Not Dead But Very Alive Link And Most Likely By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV – Aug 18, 2008 MOSCOW (AP), Citing Anatoly Nogovitsyn Among Others. Russian eyewitness reporters (embedded to the Russian forces!) on the shape of the Russian equipment and the Georgian fire[2]/[3] and the commander's column ambush (I believe posted before his wounding was officially confirmed).[4]/[5] Russian casualties are actually unknown, unless you take the Russian official statements and figures seriously. What is "MS media", is this something like MS Windows? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

My mistake, the initial link was unavalible. Still Anatoly Nogovitsyn said nothing about tank faliures. As for the commander, we’ve already noted that he traveled away from his convoy and exposed himself to fire. Nothing is mentioned about some sort of bloodbath where the Tanks are all destroyed. About taking the official statements seriously yes, they overall match up with the reality on the ground and are in line with what we took during the 1st Gulf while the Georgian claims simply are incredulous; had they managed to cause as much damage as they claimed their lines would likely have held at Gori: the level of demoralization by that point is indicative of a total rout. The fact is Georgia never had much of a chance for ground combat on even footing, due to Russian Air superiority. Freepsbane (talk) 01:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

See above and stop Capitalizing words Randomly. I actually used the word "rout" (as in "panicky rout"), so learn to read, too. Yes, Russia eventually won - by overhelming numbers, but most of all by the air dominance. Also the fact that the most capable units of the Georgian army were trained in the counterinsurgency for Iraq/Afghanistan (and 2,000 of those were actually in Iraq), not holding territory against the Soviet-style massed combined arms offensive - and invested too much into artillery instead of AA systems. (At least they had UAVs and night-vision, which the Russians still lacked.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Where do you see "overwhelming numbers"? Air force, yes. But much less ground troops - 9 to 12 thousands during the course of the conflict (and twice less AFVs). The number of abkhaz/ossetian troops involved is unclear and highly debatable. 195.218.211.5 (talk) 23:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I’ll take more time to proofread my talk posts if you act more civil. Terms such as “eventually” and “overwhelming numbers” are in themselves biased and don’t fit in a five day war where numerically speaking the ground forces were relatively even. Yes I agree the Georgian order of battle was designed for combat against lightly armored rebels and irregulars, not a major military power. But I’ve seen no sources on the infrared issue, and UAV’s themselves became useless after day3 due to the loss of Radar and communications.Freepsbane (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it a reliable source? Again, i see nothing except speculation and no specific references! And Times article has some nice factual errors as well. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Get an account, then tell what do you think is "RELIABLE SOURCE (!!!!!111!!11)". Oh wait, I don't care about your opinion. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Snobism won't help you in your problems. Anybody can suck such fantasies out of his thumb - without any REAL references, any article is not just "unreliable" source, it's not a "source" at all! 195.218.211.5 (talk) 23:17, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The column with the commander has been destroyed, yes, 9 August 2008, but the russian operation in Ossetia starts 8 August 2008, and the column with the commander has been destroyed near the city, but not in the city. Also it was not a first column, because russians were near Tskhinval (an ossetian name)/Tskhinvali (the georgian one) in the first day of the operation. (sources: Crew of TV channel "Vesti" came under fire, The commander of 58th army is wounded in South Ossetia) Also, the information about battles near the tunnel usually available only in georgian sources, and in analytic publications (and what about the sources used in those publications?..) (Pubkjre (talk) 22:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC))

According to reporters who traveled with that column (yesterday's TV), it wasn't even remotely "destroyed". Mainly thanks to stupid move of the georgian group (whether they were trained commandos or just stray soldiers) - they began shooting at aforementioned reporters instead of real threat. Incidentally, army commander travelled with these reporters at the moment. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Instead of debating who beat who here, I would suggest to use all these sources to update the casualties section of the infobox: 1) the latest official figure of missing Georgian soldiers is currently at 70, not 300. 2) Replace Nogovitsyn's "...I heard they lost 4000" (which I can't seem to find anywhere other than in Civil Georgia - in Russian sources the guy mainly says that "it's hard to tell...") with the 400 figure by that independent Georgian analyst, lacking a more official Russian estimate. --Illythr (talk) 23:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Do it. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I grabbed a Civil Georgia source for the official Georgian estimate instead. Better that way. Once an official Russian estimate for Georgian casualties is located, it should be inserted instead of the "independent Georgian" one. --Illythr (talk) 01:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Death from above (HRW/UNOSAT)

Georgian villages in North Ossetia:

• In Tamarasheni, UNOSAT’s experts counted a total of 177 buildings destroyed or severely damaged, accounting for almost all of the buildings in the town.
• In Kvemo Achabeti, there are 87 destroyed and 28 severely damaged buildings (115 total).
• In Zemo Achabeti, 56 destroyed and 21 severely damaged buildings (77 total).
• In Kurta, 123 destroyed and 21 severely damaged buildings (144 total).
• In Kekhvi, 109 destroyed and 44 severely damaged buildings (153 total).
• In Kemerti, 58 destroyed and 20 severely damaged buildings (78 total).
• In Dzartsemi, 29 destroyed and 10 severely damaged buildings (39 total).

The Goergian villages around Gori, Gori itself (the city), Upper Kodori, etc NOT counted.

And how much of destruction really in Tskhinvali? Only 98 buildings likely destroyed and 37 likely severely damaged (135 total).

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm

I'm pretty sure one can use these images, too. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 19:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, someone update the articles on these villages (the two who had them), as they were just burned down. (For example, Tamarasheni article has "The museum was severely damaged, on July 23, 1997, in a blast allegedly organized by local Ossetian nationalists." Now it's more like "The entire village was almost totally destroyed, in August 2008, by local Ossetian nationalists Russian and pro-Russian forces.") --84.234.60.154 (talk) 19:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Where have you found the number of destroyed buildings in Tskhinvali? I couldn't locate it there... Alæxis_¿question? 19:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.hrw.org/features/georgia/satellite/UNOSAT_Damage_Atlas_Tskhinvali_Highres.pdf --84.234.60.154 (talk) 20:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No, not quite. Two lower maps correspond to Tskhinvali so there are 81+98=179 destroyed buildings and 37+18=55 severely damaged ones. Alæxis_¿question? 20:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Still several times less than in the neighbouring Georgian villages only - not even counting in and around Gori and elswhere (guess the next report will deal with those). Guess it goes to the "Infrastructure damage" and "Humanitarian impact" sections, as well as the articles about the settlements. Bye. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 20:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I've never claimed the opposite. Btw, then we should not forget Khetagurovo and other Ossetian villages of Tskhinaval and Znaur districts. Alæxis_¿question? 21:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

What exactly are you trying to prove? Show me the number of homes that were destroyed, the number of facilities such as school, government and medical buildings. The number of people who actually lost their lives, because as far as I've read, the ones looting and burning down houses didn't kill the house owners, let alone in the night while they slept. Fox news might be interested in comparing a destroyed apartment building that housed a hundred people, or a kindergarten that educated thousands of children to a tiny hut that housed two and call that an equal amount of destruction, but as far as this article is concerned, what relevance does such a useless comparison have? LokiiT (talk) 21:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Didn't kill? There are plenty of reports of the paramiliaries killing people randomly (apparently not on the "Balkan scale", though - the reporter witnessed the bodies, btw). Most of civilians in the town were evacuated, most of the men who remained were in militia. Russia claimed the town was "totally destroyed". It wasn't (it was a lie), but actually the Georgian villages were totally destroyed later (while the Russian "peacekeepers" looked on, after bombing and shelling these villages so the Georgian would withdraw AND the militiamen would move in). Btw: Russia also said it is investigating "genocide of 133 Russian citziens" in the town - I wonder why they won't investigate "genocide of thousands Russian citiziens" in Grozny, or let's say, the systematic murder of about 250 people in Samashki, once a huge scandal? --84.234.60.154 (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and a beautiful quote about what the Russian government think about doing "genocide" on Russian citiziens when there's "firing" going on: "What the Russians did in Samashki is what the Germans did to us throughout the war," the weekly Moscow News said in one of many recent editorials in Russian newspapers condemning the killings. "But Russians did this to their own people. And that is unforgivable. What happened in Samashki during those days has only one definition," the paper concluded. "Genocide." (...) "This is warfare," said Gen. Anatoly S. Kulikov, the commander of Russian forces in Chechnya, at a news conference last week. "They fired at us. We did not fire first. It is true that 120 residents died, but they were people who resisted us and fought us."[6] It was 13 years ago, so I guess all guilty of this "genocide" (like Mr. Kulikov) are already - and still - in Russian prisons, am I right? Or maybe is the right of commiting "genocide" of Russians (and non-Russians) only reserved for Russians, and this is heroic, while it's a crime for anyone else? --84.234.60.154 (talk) 22:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

On a side note, Tskhinvali is a town with apartment buildings so it's probably not fair to compare just the numbers of destroyed houses. Alæxis_¿question? 19:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Significant (visible from air) damage is practically only on small houses in the town. The both apartemnt building districts - on the east and south - are almost untouched, with one heavily damaged and one destroyed building. (And I remember looking at Grozny through Google Map few years ago, and whole parts of the city were LITERALLY leveled - just rubble or even entirely empty space with outlines of structures. Guess you can see Tskhinvali too.) --84.234.60.154 (talk) 20:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_3.jpg - School in Tshinvali; this is "undamaged" building for satellite. This is un-leveled building. Магистер (talk) 23:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's a very slight damage - broken windows, not even any hole in the brick wall (only a fragment of plasterwork fell); there are undamaged walls, doors, even curtains in the window. I'll show you some pictures from Grozny, so you'd compare (apartment blocks, okay? huge concrete structures, hard to smash, so it's not like "a straight shell"): [7] [8] [9] (now, it's a hole!) [10] [11] (quite an impressive "hole", too) [12] [13] [14] (it was a school I believe) [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] - ANYTHING like this in Tshinvali? (And who was found guilty for the Grozny's "genocide of Russian citiziens"?) --84.234.60.154 (talk) 10:21, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Never compare Tskhinvali to Grozny, latter one was being destroyed one-building-at-a-time in the course of several years, mostly with direct fire aimed at known entrenched rebels in that house, with local civilians given escape route before fight. And even at the peak of destruction, huge portions of Grozny were untouched as well, because majority of the buildings were unsuitable for improvising strongpoints out of them. 195.218.211.16 (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Firing "for several years" on "that house"? Please tell me you're joking. Local civilians were actively prevented from escaping, many of those who tried to escape were killed (example and another). Many of those who remained and survived the attacks (such as this using ballistic missiles) were also killed (example and another). Please tell me what "huge part of Grozny" was "untouched", because I've seen it through Google Maps and EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE was destroyed (houses, apartement blocks, factories, the oil district, the city centre, the outskirts, the neighbouring villages, everything). --84.234.60.154 (talk) 22:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia did not have such power. Shevarnadze's slogan "Georgia - for Georgians" is a pure nazism. Магистер (talk) 18:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any such slogan, but anyway what position Mr. Shevarnadze holds in the Georgian government? --84.234.60.154 (talk) 23:21, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

About half or so of destroyed buildings are actually in one small section of the town- probably this former Jewish quarter, or maybe the government district. There's also another cluster of destruction in northern-west part of the town and another in the central part, but not so concentrated. If you want, you can zoom at Google and check the every building hit, but for me it's practically all small houses. Btw, several Goergian houses are still burning when the photos are being taken. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 20:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we really need a section about the Ethnic cleansing now. Narking (talk) 22:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, did I read that right, that's "Only 98 buildings likely destroyed"??? Since when 98 destroyed buildings is NOT enough for something or SOMEONE? Are you suggesting there should be MORE? Please watch what you are writing.68.151.34.161 (talk) 08:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I am rather suggesting that the Russians lied about the complete destruction of the town first, and also later while saying that over 700 buildings were completely destroyed, while only 179 seem to be destroyed according to the UN sattelite imagery experts. (Or maybe they counted the Georgian villages too? I don't think there are "more than 7,000" buildings in Tskhinvali.) --84.234.60.154 (talk) 10:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

This was not interesting for HWR. Магистер (talk) 18:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

"we should not forget Khetagurovo" - great, Russian unconfirmed (after 3 weeks!) /otherwise already forgotten propaganda stories/fairy tales in the Khetagurovo article, while Tamarasheni article has no word about being wiped out. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 22:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Most georgian villages around Tskhinval were legal targets: they were empty (population evacuated by georgians themselves before 8.08), and they were used for staging areas and artillery positions. So, one can't compare destruction (as a result of armed forces battling each other) of empty villages to merciless bombardment of the sleeping city! 195.218.210.146 (talk) 02:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Most ossetian houses in Tskhinvali were legal targets: they were empty (population evacuated by ossetians themselves before 8.08), and they were used for staging areas and artillery/machine gun/RPG positions. So, one can't compare destruction (as a result of armed forces battling each other) of empty town to merciless ethnic cleanisng after the ceasefire! Also "Tskhinval" is not a "city" and never was. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 07:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The truth is between your opinions, as usual. Mischa G (talk) 08:14, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I just used his own statement to demonstrate something to him. But still, the point is that the rebels and the irregulars didn't cease attacks on noncomabants in North Ossetia and beyond after the ceasefire (and under the watch of the self-declared "peacekeepers", who at the very least did nothing to stop it - if not outright encouraged or even joined them). --84.234.60.154 (talk) 09:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You demonstrated nothing. Ossetians did NOT evacuate the whole town like georgians did in their villages, they sent off some children because of pre-war escalation of violence, that's all. And peacekeepers actually ARE defending noncombatants after ceasefire, i bet you don't even know there are numerous arrests of the so-called "volunteers". 195.218.211.16 (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgians did not evacuate their villagers. Even now, after 3 weeks of ethnic cleansing, there are still Georgian civilians there (or at least were there very recently). Independent sources for "numerous arrests" plz. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 23:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

"after 3 weeks of ethnic cleansing, there are still Georgian civilians there" - of course, there are - Pervy kanal reported about Georgian families who had fled their homes during the war (8-12 August) returning tranquilly to their villages and recommencing their life there. And I have no idea what cleansing you are referring to - there was a cleansing in Tskhinvali, but it was directed against Ossetians and lasted for 3 days, not weeks. If you are aware of other cleansings, please provide impartial evidence therefor. Bogorm (talk) 08:00, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The self-declared "peacekeepers", who at the very least did nothing to stop such events, available not only in Ossetia, but, for example, but not only, in Kosovo too (is case of "unfriendly" actions of albanian population against serbian one). So, "vae victis!" is a very, very old principle... (Pubkjre (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC))

Complete miss. Kosovo - self-declared "Russian peackeepers" (again) got there before NATO(!) and remained there until 2003 or so. NATO forces did not invade Serbia proper after the ceasefire and the Albanian irregulars trailing behind them did not pillage, say, Novi Sad - they also did not invade (or actually even bomb) Montenegro so they would secede from the new Yugoslavia already in 1999, because it was actually "Kosovo War" and nothing else. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 15:59, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I speak about NATO as “peacekeepers”, not Russians. And I speak, for example, about the Serbian children whose were machine-gunned in the village Gorazdevac in 2003. "The incident sparked a wave of anti-Serbian violence across Kosovo. It was widely blamed on Albanian extremists but the culprits have not yet been found." Wikipedia: Goraždevac

Also I can speak about something like this: “It is imperative that Kosovo authorities and the EU-led mission protect minorities from the violence that has been a persistent feature of Kosovo’s postwar history. In addition to physical protection from the Kosovo Police, EU police and NATO forces, ending the cycle of violence means prosecuting those responsible for the crimes.” Human Rights Watch: Protecting Minority Rights Key to Kosovo’s Future

So, not only Russian "peacekeepers" are impossible to prevent crimes... (Pubkjre (talk) 20:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC))

At least russian peacekeepers (i mean real ones, those stationed in SO before war) prevented mass murder there, a task failed by fainthearted western peacekeepers in Srebrenica for example. After such things, burning of empty houses is no big deal, really. 195.218.211.16 (talk) 20:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Burning of empty houses is a crime, but… Army is an instrument for bombing and shooting. Army kills and destroys. It isn’t intended for preventions the crimes, for protections the civil rights and so on. Those tasks are tasks of a police- either the civilian police or military one. Regular forces usually have a better discipline than irregulars. But the units or regular Russian army couldn’t be the police for Ossetian irregulars. Again, army bombing and shooting, but not inquesting and arresting. So, please, don’t mix military operations with postwar peacekeeping ones. Peacekeepers should prevent such crimes as soon as possible. Army has another tasks.(Pubkjre (talk) 23:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC))

They did what? The Russian contingent in SO was defeated - the Georgians were defeated by the invasion force - and there is not a slightest shadow of evidence that Georgia prepared a massacre there (or even the ethnic cleansing in the kind of what Russia did - absolutely nothing happened to Ossetians in the Goergian-controlled territory like in Tbilisi, no looting, no hostage-taking, so why would they persecute those in the Kokoity's after his gang would be chased back to Russia?). --84.234.60.154 (talk) 23:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

"absolutely nothing happened to Ossetians in the Goergian-controlled territory" - this is a mendacious allegation - the Georgian genocide troops (according to prime minister Putin) slaughtered 1492 civil Ossetians and destroyed 20% of all buildings of Tskhinvali. Does that sound like "absolutely nothing" ??! Bogorm (talk) 07:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

"according to prime minister Putin"... Oh, yeas, of course! Btw, 84.234.60.154 was referring to tens of thousands of Ossetians living outside South Ossetia.--Kober^Talk 07:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Then he should have written "in Georgia proper" or "in Georgia itself", because the vicinity of Tskhinval was Georgia-controlled territory for 2-3 days and many ordeals happened as a result. Bogorm (talk) 07:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Houses not only had been burned, but Georgian villages in Ossetia are still burned. Ossetian government does nothing to really stop burning… It’s a pity, but all ethnic conflicts are similar to each other. (“These events predominantly involved attacks by ethnic Albanians on Kosovo Serbs and some other minority groups. Nineteen people died and over 950 were injured in the violence and there was large-scale destruction of property. Over 4,000 people were forced to flee their homes.” Amnesty International press release).

But about “no hostage-taking” please be careful… It’s required to find the sources, of course, but one Russian TV channel (“Channel 5”, if I’m right) reported that hostage taking and exchanging now is in use by both Georgian and Ossetian sides… (Pubkjre (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2008 (UTC))

The truth is out of both opinions... Most georgian villages around Tskhinval(i) really were legal targets in war time _if_ artillery positions were there. Georgian side must not use those positions until civilians were evacuated, or must not to place such positions in and near those villages. And, by conventions, those villages can not be legal targets after the end of military actions... Also, there are no reliable information about the time when georgian civilians leaved their villages - before the war or during it.

But ossetians had not heavy weapons in Tskhinval(i), so objects in those town could be used against georgians only if georgians came into the town (unlike artillery positions in georgian villages, whose could be used to bombard Tskhinval(i)). If georgians wanted to start combat in Tskhinval(i), the conventional way was to allow ossetian civilians to leave the town. After that, houses in Tskhinvali would be legal targets. BUT. Ossetian civilians were not evacuated from the town! Also it's reported that georgians fires to civilians whose tried to escape from Tskhinval(i). (please note that there are only two roads from Tskhinval(i) to other part of S.Ossetia - one of them go through georgian villages and was blocked long before the events, the other road go around those villages, but it has been reported that it was under fire of georgian artillery) (Pubkjre (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC))

According to Georgia, the rebels broke the truce by firing not just artillery, but heavy artillery (120 mm pieces that they were not supposed to have there in first place, according to the 1990s truce - but they had) and killing 10 Georgian peacekeepers and civilians in the villages. Ossetians evacuated their civilians, that is children, women and old people (leaving a very large militia, of course, which means masses of male "civilians" ready to take arms and don some kind of uniform at any time, which they did), they also brought volunteers from Russia. In short, they were fully prepared and the "civilians" left were mostly militiamen. The evacuation was not secret, it was totally official: "Women, children and old men remove from several villages of Znaursky area and Tskhinvali. Evacuation has begun on August, 2nd 2008г., informs RIA Novosti news agency." (August 5th, 2008) At the same time, Georgian villages would be never (NEVER) be a "legal targets" for pillage by the Ossetian marauders AKA militiamen, because looting and arson of civilian property is a war crime (as is hostage taking, not to mention murder). The whole point is the Georgian villages were destroyed mostly in the attacks outside combat (and in great part even after the ceasefire). --84.234.60.154 (talk) 15:59, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, if we want to speak about war crimes performed by Ossetian side, we need to recognize Ossetians as neither rebels no separatists, but as an independent country. Otherwise S.Ossetia just can not sign correspondent conventions… …and in this case such crimes can be interpreted as ordinary civilian crimes, not war ones… Well, S.Ossetia has the factual independence at that time, so we can speak about factual war crimes.

"we need to recognize Ossetians as neither rebels no separatists, but as an independent country" - are you joking? Wikipedia is not kremlin.ru. War crimes may be commited aby anone in the war. Furthermore, the Russian government and military leadership are command responsible for the actions of the militias composed of the allegedly "Russian citiziens", armed by Russia, and working together with regular forces in the Russian-controlled territory. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 23:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Not a joke, but a terminology problem… Conventions in most part have been written for combatants, whose represents their countries. For example, some declarations bans the use of fragmenting, explosive, or incendiary small arms ammunition during wars among the co-signatory nations. It notably leaves out instances of war with non-signatory nations, conflicts with undeveloped nations, or military operations in their own colonies and possessions.

Also, Ossetian military forces, like Abkhazian ones, are not a part of Russian Army, they have their own leaderships and commanders, they execute their own military operations themselves. Factually they are independent, by allied with Russians, military forces, and they can work with and without Russian Army.

So, are there reliable sources whose show that attacked outside the combat Georgian villages were attacked by both Russian and Ossetian forces, and not only by Ossetian ones?(Pubkjre (talk) 08:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC))

And one note… The conventions have been violated in all wars in 20th and 21th century by all sides whose took part in those wars…

About the broken truce and killed Georgian peacekeepers and civilians in the villages… According to Ossetia, the truce has been broken several days before by firing from Georgians side to Tskhinval(i) and Ossetian villages, and several Ossetians were killed and wounded… Each side can to say something like it about another one…

Your sources say the Ossetians start the evacuation or ready to start it. They don’t say that the evacuation has been completed. So, than I speak about Ossetian civilians, I speak about conventional noncombatants like women with children and old people. And there are many such noncombatants in Tskhinval(i). “Vera, a pharmacist from Tskhinvali, spent 8 days in a basement with her 6-month-old son Vitaliy. They drank water with worms and ate old cheese. Although Vitaliy is sleeping he still sucks on his mother's breast.” KP journalists found the survivors at a refugee camp for South Ossetians outside Vladikavkaz

But yes, of course, the destruction of Georgian villages in the attacks outside combat is a war crime.(Pubkjre (talk) 22:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC))

-- Utruk (talk) 13:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC) I would like to highlight following facts.

1. The images available for download from HRW cannot be considered as "high detailed" as declared on HRW site. Google Map provides maps both in higher resolution and image quality.
2. Images provided by UNOSAT in PDF documents have very bad quality (resoultion) and pretty high compression level.
3. Source of analyzis of images is U.S. Departament of State - HIU. U.S. Dept. of Statie is interested party. Almost any document contains following description.

Source(s): Satellite Data : WorldView-1 Resolution : 50 cm Imagery Dates : 19 August 2008 Copyright : Digital Globe (2008) Source: U.S. Department of State – HIU Access Rules : NextView "EULA" - 2008 Additional Imagery: Formosat-2 (2m pansharpened) Image Copyright : NSPO 2008 Image Date : 19 August 2008 GIS Data : USGS, UNEP, UNOSAT Damage Analysis : UNOSAT Projection : Pulkovo 1995 GK Zone 8N Datum :Pulkovo 1995

http://s60.radikal.ru/i168/0808/a4/11a1cdefa824.jpg

Therefore something is wrong with this damage report from UNOSAT.

1. There are ground photos which prove either low quality or bias of analysis. For example peacekeepers barraks were destroyed, however in the report from UNOSAT they are marked as intact. http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/k/r/krig42/IMG_0248.jpg

1. There are no satellite high resolution images (at least of Google Maps quality) of damages of Tskhinvali available in the public access, therefore entrie satellite analysis is not verifiable.

I suggest to exclude this text "On August 29, Human Rights Watch published a report showing satellite images released by the UN program UNOSAT, said to indicate that widespread torching of ethnic Georgian villages inside South Ossetia has been carried out by Russian and Ossetian militias.[29]" I think this phrase should be removed as it give reader false impression that Tskhinvali wasn't/or barely damaged and the Georgian villages the only side that suffer damage. Material for this report looks biased, unreliable and created by interested party.

"The new satellite images, taken by a commercial satellite on August 19, were analyzed by experts of the Geneva-based UNOSAT program, which is part of the UN Institute for Training and Research and produces satellite-derived mapping in support of UN agencies and the international humanitarian community. UNOSAT experts identified visible structures on the images that were likely to have been either destroyed or severely damaged. The expert analysis indicates clear patterns of destruction that are consistent with the evidence gathered by Human Rights Watch researchers working in the region." --84.234.60.154 (talk) 14:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you think it is already time to create article Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Ossetia? Biophys (talk) 16:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

In Ossetia? It's elsewhere in Goergia too, and it is continuing even as we talk. "The United Nations refugee agency on August 29 said thousands of people living near the administrative border dividing Georgia and its breakaway region of South Ossetia are fleeing towns and villages amid reports of incursions by Ossetian militias."[24] Btw, according to what I know, there is still no ethnic violence directed AGAINST Ossetians (in case if someone 'missed the news' - tens of thousands of Gerogia's Ossetians live outside NO). --84.234.60.154 (talk) 16:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree, but let's be constructive. Do you think such article is needed, and what exactly title would you suggest?Biophys (talk) 23:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if not an article at least a section in this one. I would say it's full scale ethnic cleansing now and I fear those Georgians will never be able to go home to their villages as long as the Russian "peacekeepers" are there. And of course their homes are also burned down. Narking (talk) 19:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

15 August

Who wrote this date? If you mean the "Medvedev-Sarkozy" agreements, the definitive signing of it was on 16 August. Mischa G (talk) 13:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like to ask the proponent of this date about the same(wherefore 15. Aug. ??? ) - a preceding discussion about the end is to be found here - methinks that the most appropriate date is 12. August as in the Spanish, Chinese and Serbian Wikipedia(in the last 13. Aug), when President Medvedev proclaimed the end of military actions. Is a vote necessary in order to opt more decisevely for the convenient date? Bogorm (talk) 17:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian Wikipedia says "12 August (16 August)" - the most neutral variant, imho. Mischa G (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

(to Mischa G) Да, я доверяюсь прежде всего именно ей, но не упомянул, потому что боялся, что инакомыслящие сочтут это за пристрастность, да и убедительнее стало бы, если можно показать им, что не только россияне цепляются за эту (единственно) приемлемую дату. Bogorm (talk) 17:31, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Да чего боятся, по-моему, даты очевидные (если уж по умолчанию считать войну законченной). Пусть кто-то попробует оспорить ) Mischa G (talk) 17:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Исправьте пожалуйста даты на вариант в русской википедии, снабдив их аналогичными ссылками. Кому не нравится, пусть ищет другие ссылки. Mischa G (talk) 17:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Я уже исправил в сербской Википедии, вставляя источник из лента.ру Bogorm (talk) 18:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If you want to have private talks, especially in other languages, do it somewhere else than here. Narking (talk) 19:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If you want to answer my question, you may do it here. Tell me please, what does the date "15 August" mean? Mischa G (talk) 19:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

(To Narking) Hvorfor? Hvor er det skrivet, at det engelske sprog er det eneste obligatorisk for diskusjoner? Hvis man er polyglot, kan man tale på mange sprog, som jeg taler nu med Dem på dansk, og forøvrigt har jeg aldrig skrevet nogen fornærmelse eller ubehøvlet sag. Hilsen. Bogorm (talk) 19:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

This has already been discussed here before. If everyone should be able to follow the discussions we have to stick to one language and since this is English Wikipedia it's of course English we should use and not Russian, German or Danish. Narking (talk) 20:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, but I reiterate that in the Latin Wikipedia the users are permitted to post in the preferred language and that the Latin is obligatory only for the mainspace. I have perused numerous Wikipedia rules here, but I have not yet come across any restrictions regarding the Discussion space here. Are there actually any? Bogorm (talk) 20:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't you think it's better if everyone can understand what you are saying? Narking (talk) 20:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, my first question was in English and the only person who answered me was Bogorm. I don't understand, why I can't discuss with him this problem? If you don't want to answer my first question, you can keep silence. Mischa G (talk) 20:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

As I said before. If you want to have private talks, have it somewhere else. Perhaps in Russian Wikipedia. Narking (talk) 20:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

In Russian Wikipedia this problem was solved; it is not problem of Russian Wikipedia, it's a problem of English Wikipedia. I think, it is not the proper place to flood, btw. Mischa G (talk) 20:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

(To Narking) Please refrain from intimidation efforts at least until you quote some wiki rule interdicting alternative languages in the discussion space. As you see, when I am asked, I retort in English and do not persevere in Danish, but if you were Danish, I would have done it - why converse in a language, which is foreign for both of us, when I can speak yours and the conversation would be by far more amicable???! Bogorm (talk) 20:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines "Use English: No matter to whom you address a comment, it is preferred that you use English on English Wikipedia talk pages. This is so that comments may be comprehensible to the community at large. If the use of another language is unavoidable, try to also provide a translation of the comments. If you are requested to do so and cannot, it is your responsibility to either find a third party to translate or to contact a translator through the Wikipedia:Embassy." Does not prohibit the use of non-English but makes it clear you should use English, it also makes it claer that if you are requested to you must provide a translation. "Communicate: If in doubt, make the extra effort so that other people understand you, and you get a proper understanding of others. Being friendly is a great help. It is always a good idea to explain your views; it is less helpful for you to voice an opinion on something and not explain why. Explaining an opinion helps in convincing others and reaching consensus." Makes it clear that you should try top make you posts understandable to other users. [[Slatersteven (talk) 15:46, 31 August 2008 (UTC)]]

Yes, I can understand Danish too. But I think it's obvious that we should stick to English here if everyone should be able to follow. By writing in Danish or Russian you omit most people here which is not good for the discussions. Don't you agree on that? Narking (talk) 20:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Amicability towards one versus politeness towards several. I am lacerated between the two and perplexed... Besides, I did not have any malignant intentions. Bogorm (talk) 20:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Good, then I kindly ask you to use English here in the future so everyone can understand you. Everyone will win on that. Narking (talk) 21:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, rursus to the question about the 15th August - I am asking together with Mischa G. which reason would the proponent of the date show? I have come across a sentence in the quite authoritative news portal Lenta.ru here about "war 8-12 August" and I insist on 12 August. Bogorm (talk) 20:14, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

• I think, nobody wants to talk about it. If you have rights to edit this article (I haven't) - just do it yourself. :) Mischa G (talk) 21:11, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Fait accompli / уже сделано. Bogorm (talk) 21:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

OSCE in Vienna disclaimed that OSCE see indications of Georgia's fault in conflict and of contribution to outbreak ( acc. SPIEGEL)

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,575396,00.html http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1427854.php/Spiegel_OSCE_observers_fault_Georgians_in_conflict

"Hamburg - European observers have faulted Georgia in this month's Caucasus conflict, saying it made elaborate plans to seize South Ossetia, according to the German news magazine Der Spiegel on Saturday.

In a report to appear in its Monday edition, it said officials of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) had said acts by the Georgian government had contributed to the outbreak of the crisis with Russia.

Spiegel said OSCE military observers in the Caucasus had described preparations by Georgia to move into South Ossetia.

The onslaught had begun before Russian armoured vehicles entered a southbound tunnel under the Caucasus Mountains to South Ossetia.

It said the OSCE report also described suspected war crimes by the Georgians, including the Georgians ordering attacks on sleeping South Ossetian civilians." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnycashnin (talk • contribs) 18:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Try to obtain an original OSCE report. Journalistic speculations are doubtful.--Kober^Talk 18:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

spiegal is the biggest magazine in all of europe, theyre not making it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnycashnin (talk • contribs) 18:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you see any such report here?--Kober^Talk 18:25, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

are you saying that the biggest magazine in europe is making it up or lying? wikipedia doesnt require to use a organisations official website for reporting on its statements. i see you are from georgia, and i understand that you dont like this news, but it is the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnycashnin (talk • contribs) 18:31, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Your ad hominem arguments are weak. There are too many media speculations over such issues. All OSCE reports appear at this organization's website. If you find such report, you can obviously add it to the article. --Kober^Talk 18:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia doesnt require to use a organisations official website for reporting on its statements as i already said. there are no conflicting reports on what the osce said today it is not a matter of debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnycashnin (talk • contribs) 18:39, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course it is the truth, and the source is incontrovertably reliable, there is no use in contesting die Zeitschrift Spiegel. That is not the Bild after all. Bogorm (talk) 18:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

As usual Source Manipulation .. SPIEGEL didn't say: OSCE say Georgia is responsible for conflict. SPIEGEL reported "acts by the Georgian government had contributed to the outbreak of the crisis with Russia." Therefore more responsible players must exist in this " war game " according a still not released OSCE report. Elysander (talk) 19:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

"elaborate plans to seize South Ossetia" "preparations by Georgia to move into South Ossetia." "The onslaught had begun before Russian armoured vehicles entered a southbound tunnel...to South Ossetia"

This looks clear to me what they're saying. The article is named "OSCE observers fault Georgians in conflict". Who is manipulating the source? Johnnycashnin (talk) 19:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Where is the manipulation? Simply .. you did insert a quote here which was not an accurate translation of the SPIEGEL text. What your English source you have presented over 6 lines obviously did was a knowlingly simulation of facts instead of hints. Elysander (talk) 21:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I think, Spiegel is not worse than BBC or CNN. It can be used as source. Магистер (talk) 23:32, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Knowledge of the German language

(To Elysander) Have you made yourself familiar with the article in German and what is your knowledge in the language??? "die Führung in Tiflis den Krieg mit Russland verschuldet hat" - (though I know it ineffably well) in my Langenscheidt dictionary verschulden is defined as "an einem Unglück schuld sein". Bogorm (talk) 19:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Moreover they speak of war crimes committed by the Georgian army, since they attacked civilians during the night. Actually, the Russian medias have reported that weeks ago, so the report is quite procrastinated, but potius sero quam nunquam... Bogorm (talk) 19:39, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Again source manipulation

In the leader of the online article: Nach SPIEGEL-Informationen hat die OSZE Hinweise darauf, dass die Führung in Tiflis den Krieg mit Russland verschuldet hat. ( as often you are quoting only selected parts of a sentence)

Inside the online article: In der Zentrale der Organisation für Sicherheit und Zusammenarbeit in Europa (OSZE) häufen sich offenbar Hinweise auf ein massives Fehlverhalten der georgischen Führung, das zum Ausbruch der Krise beigetragen hat.

There is a remarkable difference between the two sentences. But you are forgetting in both sentences SPIEGEL reports of "Hinweise" ( engl hints, indications and so on)- not more til now. We need the official document not a journalistic inconsistent summary. Perhaps it will be a similar story as the SCO. And there will be other chapters as only about Georgia ;)

My personal view: I am sure there were war crimes on both sides ... and did someone dispute the attack on Zvinchali , a greater village with more civilians than soldiers inside ? Elysander (talk) 20:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Tskhinvali / Цхинвал! The authority of Der Spiegel is not to be contested (greatest Zeitschrift in Europe!). Bogorm (talk) 20:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

My Friend! ;) Where i did "contest" the SPIEGEL? 1) Spiegel reports about hints not facts in both sentences 2) "verschulden" is used as a noun not as a substantive; "beitragen" (=contribute) is not compatible with "verschulden" if you are simply translating with fault or guiltiness of one certain side. 3) Wait for the offi cial document  ;) Elysander (talk) 20:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

""verschulden" is used as a noun not as a substantive" - this sounds like "the hound is not a Canis", in other words, suspicious. Would you clarify this?! Spiegel is a official Zeitschrift, no tabloid! Bogorm (talk) 21:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

My friend! It is so simple. :)) SPIEGEL didn't report that OSCE says that Georgia is responsible. SPIEGEL didn't report OSCE says Georgians have faulted ... Elysander (talk) 21:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Would you explain your riddles as with the noun and the substantive (that one was extremely obfuscating, every noun is a substantive!). And for every German-speaking and non distorting person Der Spiegel said both of the assertions which you contest contrary to all cited evidence! Bogorm (talk) 21:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry .. you should learn German !! The English translation above is wrong. As i already explained above SPIEGEL did always cite that OSCE had got "Hinweise" ( hints) for "verschulden" and "beitragen". ( sorry .. i meant verb ;) ) Elysander (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I shall learn German, so? Unless you have any idea of Konjunktiv I, then you probaly would distort and misrepresent the ineffably, incontrovertably unambiguous "Demnach habe Georgien den Militärschlag gegen Südossetien intensiv vorbereitet und seinen Angriff begonnen, bevor russische Panzer den Verbindungstunnel nach Südossetien befuhren." QUOTING sentence as a hint too??? Or as a presentiment? Bogorm (talk) 22:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Or probably you messed up the Indikativ Präsens "So berichten OSZE-Beobachter davon, dass die georgische Führung die südossetischen Zivilisten zur Schlafenszeit habe angreifen lassen." mit Konjunktiv Präteritum and the observers had visions, so?

For all other impartial readers: In German Konjunktiv I (Präsens) is used for reporting when one has uttered EXACTLY the same thing, id est "habe Georgien den Militärschlag gegen Südossetien intensiv vorbereitet" is equivalent to " X sagt: "Georgien hat den Militärschlag gegen Südossetien intensiv vorbereitet" " and should be rendered as: "according to this (the report) = (wegen des Konjunktivs I !, meine Erläuterung ) the report states: "Georgia prepared intensively the military assault against SO"" Bogorm (talk) 22:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Wrong path! But the story is now boring! "Demnach ...." This time SPIEGEL is reporting from a 3rd side ( not OSCE Report ) - from German govermental offices where reports of several single OSCE members seem evaluated ... it follows "demnach" (thus / according to). "habe .. vorbereitet" - Yes .. Konjunktiv but "Konjunktiv Perfekt". In the next German sentence it is not "Konjunktiv Präteritum". ;)

But your sentence hopping to lesser or not disputed parts ( attack on Zvinchali etc.) of the SPIEGEL text doesn't help you. The basic lines in English above in the first posting are simply inaccurately translated. And your mixing of different sources in seemingly only one in the SPIEGEL text ( OSCE Report, German Government, other evaluated OSCE sources ) earmarks your flappant dealings with sources. Elysander (talk) 23:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You could at least have made you familiar with the name of the capital of South Ossetia - it is Tskhinvali in Georgian and Tskhinval in Ossetian (Цхинвал, if you read Cyrillic script)! No "Zv...". And I make no claims of Konjunktiv Präteritum, I simply feared that you would coment the sentence as though it were. And Konjunktiv Perfekt belongs to Konjunktiv I - there is a nice article, where you can assure yourself thereof. And if so, that means "the report states: "Georgia had prepared (been preparing) ... before the Russian tanks crossed the tunnel ..."" Bogorm (talk) 07:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Sigh! My last comment to your strange argumentation. I thought you were familiar with German? ;) I did use the most used German term ( another transcription): "Zvinchali". Once more regarding your flappant dealings with sources:

• 1) 'monsterandcritics' did present a definitely inaccurate translation -
• 2) Your arguments were based on those inaccurate translations at this section's beginning therefore they were wrong -
• 3) Later you did migrate to other parts of the GERMAN ( not English) Spiegel text which were lesser or not disputed ( Attack on Zv., start of war etc.) .. and you did systematically "forget" that SPIEGEL reported about different sources not only about the coming OSCE report. and so on .... Elysander (talk) 09:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

"I did use the most used German term: Zvinchali" MORT DE RIRE ! If you had deigned to behold the article in the German Wikipedia, you would have been apprised that the German transcription is Z C H I N W A L I - ich lasse mir kein X für ein U vormachen and I really do not understand why you have made 3 mistakes in one word if that is your explanation. Zchinwali can be Zvinchali when Berlin becomes Benlir (with other words am Sankt Nimmerleinstag/à la Saint-Glinglin). Nor can I comprehend wherefore you are trying to misrepresent this figment Zvinchali as related to the German language! At any rate, I dispose already of a more than sufficient idea of your knowledge of the German language Bogorm (talk) 12:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

:)) It is significant for your style of argumentation that you must now retreat to a typo discussion. It is proven that you are tending to source manipulations, using not accurate translations and not only one time preselected parts of a source quoted out of context for your arguments. EOD Elysander (talk) 13:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

That are your allegations which I consider rootless. By the way, at least I do not indulge in facetious derisions of the foremost language of Europe! Bogorm (talk) 13:19, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify usage of the German language (and defend Der Spiegel's reporting): Konjunktiv I is not equal to Präsens!

Konjunktiv I, as used here, is a form of indirect speech. Check http://german.about.com/od/grammar/a/konjunktivI_2.htm for a good description. To quote from that website: "Generally the Konjunktiv I is telling you that someone said something that may or may not be true.". Der Spiegel reported on something said by someone else. The use of Konjunktiv I indicats that Der Spiegel does not guarantee for the truthfulness of that message and is simply relaying it. --Xeeron (talk) 15:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

OSCE in Vienna disclaimed that an official report or documents with content described by SPIEGEL exist at OSCE. Liberation - Sept-01 - [25] - Die Presse (AT) Sept-01 - [26] - networld (AT) Sept-01 - [27] >>

Die Organisation für Sicherheit und Zusammenarbeit in Europa (OSZE) hat nach einem "Spiegel"-Bericht schwere Vorwürfe gegen die georgische Regierung für deren Vorgehen im bewaffneten Konflikt gegen Russland erhoben. OSZE-Sprecher Martin Nesirky wies den Bericht allerdings zurück. Die Beobachtermission in Georgien erstelle regelmäßig Berichte, die "transparent, vorurteilsfrei und unabhängig" verfasst seien, teilte Nesirky mit. Diese würden über offizielle "diplomatische Kanäle" an alle 56 Teilnehmerstaaten weitergeleitet, darunter auch Russland und Georgien. "Keiner dieser Berichte enthält Informationen der Art, wie sie in dem Bericht des 'Spiegel' vorkommen", erklärte der Sprecher weiter. ... Elysander (talk) 07:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

centre for european reform

There is some interesting analysis at CER regarding Russia-Georgia war, whom to blame, possible future sanctions, etc. Basically, it shows that EU is divided and why. Also some of the analysis unambiguously places the blame on Saakashvili's gambling. Also it mentioned that some policy-makers believe that that was in USA interest to provoke the conflict to tarnish Russia's image ("if it did not react then it is weak, if it did react then it is aggressive").(Igny (talk) 23:03, 31 August 2008 (UTC))

a note on the military

This article isn't superbly accurate military. The Georgians attacked S. Ossetia with 8,000 (NOT 2,000) troops. Also, there is no 1st and 2nd Battle of Tskhinvali, as the fighting never stopped. There's no First and Second battle of Baghdad either. Now, as for the attack: most of Georgia's attacking army of 8,000 men was wiped out. That's why the brigade from Iraq was rushed in, along with 1,000 American soldiers to defend Tbilisi. Outside of Tbilisi Georgian forces were completely, totally and utterly routed. The casualty rates for such operations should be about 1 to 10. Granted some of the 8,000 men retreated, some got away. But they had to have taken significant losses, of at least 2,000 before routing. Otherwise they're just a chickenshit army that runs at the first sight of gunfire. Either way you want to play, Saakashvili and Georgians lost the war, big time, that much is clear. And you cannot separate battles in half to show Georgian 'victories' - see military convention rules on reporting battles. 68.164.118.38 (talk) 01:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Where this came from? See this good source: Russian fighting machine is showing its age, say military analysts. Biophys (talk) 04:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to assume that you meant that article was a joke. Do you really want me to take it apart? Ok first off:

"Victory came as a result of overwhelming numerical superiority and a textbook Soviet-style strategy based on detailed planning that leaves little room for flexibility."

Russian Forces in Georgia, according to this article: 38,000. Georgian forces: 37,000. Overwhelming numerical superiority?

" They lost four aircraft, shot down by Russian-built Georgian anti-aircraft weapons."

Actually these were shot down by defense system upgraded by the Americans and purchased from Ukraine. Also, four aircraft lost by the Russian Air Force are expendable. Russia/US/China lose more then that in training/year. Not that big of a loss.

"Losing their overall commander, who suffered shrapnel wounds as he travelled in an armoured convoy in South Ossetia, the breakaway Georgian region, looked like carelessness. "

The commander was wounded. They didn't lose him. I guess it's wierd for people like Saakashvili and his supporters that a General actually goes in with the troops, but in most countries it's common practice. BTW, it wasn't their overall commander. The article really needs to get its facts straight.

Should I keep going? 68.164.118.38 (talk) 06:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are you so defensive? No need to be so insecure. Can't you see that Russia lashing out like it did made it much weaker, not stronger, since it is politically isolated and the local media have to come up with alls sorts of fantastic conspiracy theories to justify what went on. If you think that the US populace was stupid and foolishly duped into Iraq what do you think the rest of the world might think about Russia's actions and just how gullible its population might be these days? Be proud of your country, but don't let it blind you to the fact that everyone else is also proud of theirs, without needing to invade anyone else. Peace brother. 203.97.221.19 (talk) 10:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Peace, I agree. But if you mean that it's not Georgia attacked first then I can't agree as for the rest :-). Russia isn't isolated, and other countries, US as example, will support Georgia no matter that they are agressors now. And it didn't make Georgians or US become right in this situation. This article is interesting - Failings

"— Ageing armoured personnel carriers lacked proper bolt-on armour to protect against anti-tank weapons." Sorry - you mean that APC can't resist what will kill tanks? That laughable. "— No airborne unmanned surveillance platforms to spot Georgian anti-air defence systems" Yeah, no UAV's. Possibly - I can't say for sure. But what I can say - many Georgians radars were destroyed. They got targeting info from some outside sources or where working in "flash" mode. Same as NATO wasn't able to deal well with radars in Yogoslavia. "— No night-vision or satellite-linked navigation equipment" There is less of it, then in US, but who sad it's none of it? "— No protection for Tu22 bomber destroyed during reconnaissance" No protection? Like it's Georgian fighters shot it down.

I also can keep going, Just ask :-). --Oleg Str (talk) 14:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

A note of the intro:

"justified by Moscow as necessary due to the presence of Russian citizens within Georgian territory."

Actually Moscow justified it due to:

1. Unprovoked Firing by Georgian forces upon Russian Peacekeepers. 2. Unprovoked Firing by Georgian forces upon Russian Civillians. 3. Going against the Treaty signed between Russia and Georgia in 1992 - (I'm bad with dates, someone check it).

It wasn't just due to the presence of Russian citizens, please make the edits. Much appreciated 68.164.118.38 (talk) 01:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

"[...]Last night, Georgian troops committed what amounts to an act of aggression against Russian peacekeepers and the civilian population in South Ossetia. What took place is a gross violation of international law and of the mandates that the international community gave Russia as a partner in the peace process. [...]

In accordance with the Constitution and the federal laws, as President of the Russian Federation it is my duty to protect the lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they may be.[...]" D.Medvedev: Statement on the Situation in South Ossetia It's an official source of the statement of the Russian President, #2 in the References. So the protection of Russian citizens was used as a reason. But your are right: this reason isn't an only reason which was used by Moscow for justification. (Pubkjre (talk) 13:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC))

Who won the war?

At the moment, there is a merry-go-round between saying Russian victory, Russian/Abkhazian victory and Russian/separatist victory. While I do not want to join in on the revert war, let me argue why the latter is the correct version: Even if southern ossetian forces did not win a single battle, it is clear that they won the war. Southern Ossetia (and Abkhazia) went to war with the goal of removing georgian soldiers from their territory, removing any military treat by georgia, removing georgian civilians from their territory (whether this was a goal before hand can be disputed) and capturing part of georgia propper (whether this was a goal before hand can be disputed). It is very obvious that all of these goals were attained. As such it is clear that both separatist states did win the war. --Xeeron (talk) 10:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If the Russian aim was to remove Sakashvilli they have failed. If Russia had of kicked the Georgians out of Ossetia the West probably would have given lip-service to Georgian defence. By Russia occupying clearly-Georgian territory (Poti etc) and remaining in it to this day they have made the previously relatively-unknown Sakashvilli known to the West, which is why he now receives far more aid than he would have otherwise. Not the most clever move on Russia's part if the real intention was to remove him. 203.97.221.19 (talk) 10:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

POV words in introduction (why there's anything beyond facts in intro?)

Introduction somehow had become a mess-of-a-POV again. Now, it uses words like "invasion" and contains carefully chosen statements from both side which is supposed to give kind-of a balance of views, but, IMHO, works in an apposite way. It was much better just recently. Why there is anything beyond facts in introduction? Introduction is not a place to present conflicting points of view -- they can be covered in the corresponding sections. Can anybody clean it up, please? 89.113.128.63 (talk) 11:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC) But what are your proposition? May be if you put here how you see we can discuss it before puting it to the article.--Oleg Str (talk) 14:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the introduction should just state the most important facts. I shortened it. Offliner (talk) 15:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

End of the war - Part II (15 Aug and 19 Aug - unsourced)

This user recently removed the definition of the duration of the war by the respectable news portal Lenta.ru. Additionally, some claim about 19 Aug has emerged. Neither for 15 August nor for 19 Aug have been provided any sources and their presence in the article is thereby dubitable - I pray their adherents to provide at least one (reliable) source, where the expression in any written language "the war lasted from ... to ...(their option)" or "the South Ossetian War ... Aug - ... Aug" is visible. The presence of 12 Aug is indispensable because of the reliable source already secured by me. In the Spanish, Chinese and Serbian Wikipedia 12 Aug stays tranquilly in the article and nobody deletes it even without any source therefor (and I doubt that any Spaniard or Chinese from them reads Lenta.ru), whereas here the provided sources face incessant vandalism, which inflicts on me profound desolation, to say the least. Bogorm (talk) 12:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The war ended when the ceasefire (6 point plan) was signed. According to the kremlin (http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/news/2008/08/205312.shtml), that was on the 14th. Unless Georgia signed later, that would be the end of the war. --Xeeron (talk) 13:53, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

One more time: "6 point plan" was signed by Medvedev on 16 August (you can see the source in Russian wiki) Mischa G (talk) 15:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

You may look here - http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/news/2008/08/205406.shtml Mischa G (talk) 15:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I am inserting 14 Aug in lieu of 15 Aug with the appropriate source justification. Bogorm (talk) 13:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Besides the edit of the same user "(Russian interpretation)" turned out to be the consecutive figment, at least unless he claims Neues Deutschland to be Russian magazine. Bogorm (talk) 14:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Did you forget your usual proven manipulations ? :)) August 12 is ridiculous because special POV of a certain Russian side. Ceasefire Agreement is acceptable at the time both sides had confirmed. August 19 is acceptable for me too because the exchange of POW which can be understood as terminus of war. Other wikipedias are interesting but not decisive, en:wikipedia will decide sooner or later without POV warriors ;) . Some wikipedias didn't decide til now because occupation of Georgian territories still go on. Elysander (talk) 15:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If you read Russian version, you won't speak about any Russian propaganda. It is much more neutral and tells much more about facts, but not collection of POVs, like here. It's a pity you don't understand Russian. Mischa G (talk) 15:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It's only propaganda, my friend! The simple reason: the earlier the better - anything else :)) Elysander (talk) 15:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Tell me please, where did you find propaganda in Russian version? I will edit the article, if you are right. Mischa G (talk) 15:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Typically! ;) I'm obviously talking only about a certain date and you are talking about Russain wikipedia :)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elysander (talk • contribs) 15:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Bravo! Wonderful and convincing answer! Btw I have written about certain date of 16 August above in this discussion, you may see the source. Mischa G (talk) 15:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not surprised that only the collocutors of this user provide source unlike him, which he usually deletes. Removal of reliable sources is a misdeed and will have the appropriate consequences. (To Elysander) Please cease to reiterate that 12 August is the Russian version, unless you claim that Neues Deutschland s a Russian periodical, but instead made an effort to provide sources for your original research, which is 19 Aug., I am eager to delete it, but refrain because I do not instigate edit wars and unlike you presume the possibility (however exiguous) of the opposite view to be right (which until now has not been proven to be the case!) Bogorm (talk) 16:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Just something to ponder about. Medvedev declared the end to hostilities and stopped the Russian advance and started negotiations for ceasefire on Aug 12. Ceasefire was officially signed later, but both sides keep claiming that the other one does not comply. Skirmishes still occur there, does it qualify for the continuation of the war? Georgia still in state of war and considers part of its territories occupied. Interestingly, after WW2 exchange of POWs happened long after May/September 1945 (official end of WW2), and there is still no peace treaty between Russia and Japan, only truce is in effect. (Igny (talk) 16:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC))

There is a pretty definite way wars end: By signing of a peace treaty by both parties. The actual fighting might end earlier (or later), but it is the peace treaty that officially ends the war. According to the two sources cited above (http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/news/2008/08/205406.shtml & http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/news/2008/08/205312.shtml) Russia signed the peace treaty on the 14th and Georgia signed on the 15th, thus ending the war. --Xeeron (talk) 16:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Peace Treaty ??? I can only watch a preliminary ceasefire. If you are preferring terminus peace treaty, you should choose continuing war :)) Elysander (talk) 17:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Ceasefire or truce or POW exchange not equal to peace treaty, just end of hostilities. Again Georgia is still in state of war it cut diplomatic ties with Russia and considers itself occupied. Nonetheless, 12 Aug should be official end of war in my opinion.(Igny (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC))

Excuse me, are you blind? I have written to you already, that Russia signed this document on 16 August. Excuse me one more time :) Mischa G (talk) 17:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me , that i'm not always interested to discuss with "POV insertors" who always acting one-sided on a regular basis. There are sections enough on the this Talk Page or other T.P.s where after certain time only members of this "fraction" talking with each other. Other editors are obviously rarely interested at this boring content. :)) Elysander (talk) 17:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Сluster bombs in the conflict

Georgia use the M85 cluster munition http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5je4oTliESokD-zge0diVbbczCPIgD92TT2VG0

--195.98.173.10 (talk) 13:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Is this static web page? It will not disappear?--Bushops (talk) 13:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)