User talk:Jimbo Wales

G'day

Hi Jimbo - and thanks for engaging recently in the whole arbcom election thing - it'll no doubt move forward in a wiki way from here - it's a very good thing to have open discussion well ahead of time, in my book :-)

With that in mind, I wondered if you might share a few thoughts about your 'veto' type powers.... If there are users standing for election about whom sufficient concerns are held as to incline you to pass over their candidacy despite their performance in a community poll, would you consider letting them (and maybe the community?) know? Obviously new information could come to light at any time (this would also go for all sitting, and ex-arb.s I guess) but if you were to have present concerns to the point where you wouldn't be comfortable appointing User:Aaron Brenneman, User:Bishzilla, or indeed any of the editors from this fantastically handy guide to arbcom - I think it'd be great to try and clear that up ahead of vote counting.

...and finally - if I were to run, and poll strongly enough, would you have any objection to my serving on the committee? Privatemusings (talk) 04:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I would be strongly disinclined to appoint anyone who has been reprimanded by the ArbCom less than a year ago for sockpuppeting and inappropriate BLP editing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree with Jimbo's concerns. GlassCobra 13:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I would think many would, Glass - and I suspect it would never get to the point where these concerns were in tension with a clear community mandate (ie. I somehow polled very strongly). If, through the mysterious ways of the will of the wiki, this were to occur however, I would hope that the community mandate would be honoured  :-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 01:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, we work on a basis of community consensus and decision-making around here, eh Jimbo? – Thomas H. Larsen 09:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC) Meaning that if Privatemusings received high enough community support, you would appoint him to the Committee? – Thomas H. Larsen 09:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Every case is considered in detail and in consultation with the ArbCom, Arbs Emeritus, and other experienced users. I won't speculate on any particular case, but will only speak in terms of general principles. In general, though, I take very seriously the idea that "the community" is not sovereign, the principles of Wikipedia are.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It's my understanding that one of the core principles of Wikipedia is community-determined consensus. Am I incorrect? Furthermore, I believe that the community is more qualified to accurately determine the principles of Wikipedia than yourself, no disrespect intended. If each case is considered in consultation with the Abitration Committee, the Arbitrators Emeritus, and other experienced users, why do these people not decide who serves on the Committee? Or, in other words, why do you consider yourself more qualified than these experienced people to make a community decision, when you yourself have little active engagement in the day-to-day processes of the community?

I feel that you hold too much power here, and you have not voluntarily agreed to any specific limitations of this power. I would feel a good deal happier if you could write up, and abide by, a set of very clear limitations and publicly display them to the community. – Thomas H. Larsen 00:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It is a system of checks and balances, and it has served us quite well. I have in fact voluntarily agreed to limitations of my power, and I will do so more and more over time. It is important that the ArbCom not be selected solely by the existing ArbCom, nor solely by me, and so it would be wrong to eliminate our voting process.

You are mistaken, by the way, if you think that I have little active engagement in the day-to-day processes of the community. I work on different issues than you do. I work daily with the ArbCom and with OTRS.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If you select the candidates, and have sovereign power over who is allowed on the Committee (even if you do in most cases select the most supported candidates), then there are no checks and balances: it all comes down to one man, that is, yourself. Why not permit the community to select its own Committee's members, without your intervention?

Perhaps I was unclear when I stated that you have little day-to-day involvement with Wikipedia's community. I meant that you very rarely contribute actual content to articles, very rarely fall into content disputes, and very rarely participate in the normal-level community goings-on. Thus, you may be familiar with ArbCom and OTRS but you have little involvement in, say, the administrator's incidents noticeboard, et cetera, et cetera. Since you aren't familiar with where the issues that ArbCom and OTRS deal with actually start, you are, in my humble opinion at least, unqualified to deal with the issues at all, and, coming back to my original issue, you certainly do not have the authority to select members of the Committee (unless I missed your election).

I realise that you may be privy to private information not accessible to all voters, and I respect this argument. However, even though you were privy to information that Essjay was not, in fact, who he said he was, you directly placed him in the Arbitration Committee. This was a terrible decision, and it shows either that (a) you're dishonest (which I hope you aren't), or (b) you do not carefully enough validate and check information that you have, meaning that your access to this information is irrelevant.

Finally, for the benefit of the community, would you be kind enough to list the limitations of your power here, so that anybody in the community may challenge you should you exceed them? – Thomas H. Larsen 22:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry to say that you aren't being accurate in your reporting here. I don't select the candidates. Anyone can candidate. I will not appoint anyone who has not been approved by the community. I will not appoint anyone who is not supported by the existing Arbs and Arbs Emeritus. I agree completely that the Essjay situation was a fiasco, although your understanding of the history is inaccurate. In any event, that's irrelevant now, because I will never appoint anyone, even in the interim between elections, who has not gotten approval from the community. And finally, I intend to continue my longstanding tradition of appointing people in the order of the election results unless there is a seriously compelling reason to diverge from that. I may someday support a purely elected ArbCom, but not yet. I think there are important values served by having an additional check on the process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• If you are so bound that you say: "I will not appoint anyone who is not supported by the existing Arbs and Arbs Emeritus" why the hell are we having an election? - Why not ask the existing Arbs to just pick a few friends? Are you trying to fool us or yourself? You are certainly not fooling the former. Giano (talk) 20:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
• What if I am unpopular with some of the current and former arbs because I don't agree with their views? Should I not bother running? Jehochman ^Talk 20:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• Clearly not! Jimbo only wants the mates and cronies of the present appology for an Arbcom! Others thinking of running take note. Giano (talk) 20:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• Jimbo, following up Jehochman's point, the danger with allowing the ArbCom any input into this is that they'll caution against appointing anyone who has criticized them or IRC or checkusers, so the selection process becomes less and less representative — with lots of people thinking it's pointless even to try to stand — which is in part why editors have so little faith in the ArbCom now. I've been closely watching ArbCom cases for four years, and I've never known a committee so unpopular or so dictatorial. Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent is useful reading on how managers (he speaks specifically of news organizations) invariably appoint mirrors of themselves, so that whatever problems and POVs the organization has become more entrenched over time. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 21:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• As an example of Slim's point: I — me, Bishonen — don't see any point in running for election to that body. Bishzilla, on the other hand (who has a dinosaur brain) takes a contrasting view: she's extremely keen to get on the committee. No surprises there. Bishonen | talk 22:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC).

I'll echo what others have said here, why would you need final arb approval of the succesful candidates? Why can't a straight up election be good enough? If there are serious concerns about a candidate, then announce them upfront and the community can then decide with their votes, instead of using some star chamber process to make the final decision. Come on. Cla68 (talk) 00:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The dichotomy being, of course, that only those candidates who are truly interested in adding their voice, opinion, and viewpoint into the ArbCom dynamic are those at risk of being considered unsuitable by (a majority - and there will never be a voting poll given - of) the existing and previous members. Those who desire the influence conferred by such an election and yet manage to convince enough contributors to vote for them will not be subject to such examination. Therefore it is those who truly believe that ArbCom should have greater relevance to the creation of the encyclopedia are most at risk of being blackballed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

For me, the bottom line is that the people who currently get elected (with honorable exceptions) stand for entirely the wrong reasons — to gain access to checkuser and oversight, and to be able (as they see it) to lord it over other editors. I stress that there are honorable exceptions to this, but increasingly few. The result is that, once they get there, they're horrified by the amount of tedious work being an arbitrator involves, so they don't do it properly, or at all. It's hard to blame them for this, on the one hand, because very few people would want to plough through most of the rubbish they're sent. But on the other hand, they did ask to be elected, and that's what the job entails. The upshot for the community is that we don't really have a fully functioning committee.

What I'd like to see Jimbo do, at a minimum, is call an election for the entire ArbCom, and forget about these three-year appointments, which is just too long for people who basically aren't doing (and who don't want to do) the job. And then I'd like to see him exclude himself, and definitely exclude the ArbCom, from having any say in who gets appointed, except for truly egregious cases e.g. if a known vandal somehow managed to get on board. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 00:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I would comment that I am very surprised at this recent show of disquiet by you in respect of the authority of ArbCom - but perhaps that is a discussion for another time. Access to CU and Oversight is not available only to ArbCom members (CU is quite a separate matter as regards how they choose who can have access to those tools), and I should opine that they really are simply tools that are used to confirm what they are being advised by the more usual practitioners of same. Of more concern to a number of commentators here is the inherent fallibility of having a representative ArbCom if the existing order can derail the appointment of one or two (who surely will still be unable to railroad the remaining members) voices who might offer opinions and choices that reflect how the community currently thinks. Obviously, in this instance, a wholesale placing of the ArbCom up for re-election is not going to happen if they appear so wary of allowing a dissenting minority to take up places in that body. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:48, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I've been very concerned about this ArbCom for some time, LHVU. When they first started, I had high hopes, because we started seeing some nicely thought-out decisions, with explanations, which we'd never seen before. Newyorkbrad, for example, was very responsive to requests for clarification, whereas previous ArbComs had a tendency simply to ignore correspondence.

But increasingly, that desire to be the new broom turned into a power grab, of a kind we've not seen before from any ArbCom. One of them has several times tried to change policies, reverting when challenged because he's on the ArbCom, and that is (to the best of my knowledge) unprecedented. They seem to favor secret trials. Most of them are heavily involved with IRC. They've become more legalistic, or rather they've tried to, but they have no understanding of legal principles — except for Brad, but he can't be expected to do all the work alone. They block people and deny them RfArs, even when the blockees may be good content contributors. They make inconsistent decisions. They are unbearably pompous. They've set up a private mailing list for active arbitrators that I've been told isn't even hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. Bear in mind that most of the active arbitrators aren't active at all, but take precious little to do with what goes on, so what you end up with is a tiny number of people making ArbCom decisions by themselves. And then, of course, we've had the widespread leaking and publication of sensitive material, which the arbs were quick to blame on the ArbCom mailing list, but it had never happened before the last election. All in all, I find it very worrying. I've been prompted to speak out because I'm currently being prevented from publishing a defence of myself in a case where I'm being publicly criticized. But that's the trigger for my decision to speak out, not the cause. (And, as before, I want to stress that there are honorable exceptions to the criticism I've posted here.) SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 01:20, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The present ArbCom is still much the past ArbCom, the change in personal is not huge. I see some change in the dynamics, but it is still largely the ArbCom as was. Other people have voiced concerns previously, and in off-Wiki sites, and have been condemned for doing so - and the critical sites and anyone commenting there attempted to be declared undesirable, no matter what the context of the discussion. I am just pointing out that it once appeared as if you were in the camp that desired no external criticism of any kind - and little on-Wiki negative comment - and yet here you are now... I am pleased to see that your faculty for criticizing the status quo is still intact, and I am happy to work with you for a better encyclopedia (by way of improving its processes) but I trust you will appreciate that some people will be cautious in interacting with a personality whose perceived loyalties has been closely tied in with some of the administration structures you are now questioning; I'm not casting aspertions, I am being honest. As it is, as shown below, I am willing to put questions of my own prejudices as regards our past differences to one side. I trust this clarifies my posting what I did above. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:31, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

In theory there might be a candidate who was unsuitable, but the evidence might be of a private nature. In that case, I agree that Jimmy may exclude them. Otherwise there should be no blackballing of candidates by current or former committee members. Wikipedia is not a country club. Jehochman ^Talk 00:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with all of the above - this horribly oversteps any "constitutional" authority you may have over the makeup of the Arbcom. If the community has no means to overthrow the current arbitration committee by electing arbitrators opposed to them, the community has nothing at all. --Random832 (contribs) 05:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

It does raise an interesting question. Is the role of the Arbcom to support Jimbo, the current Arbs, and the Arbs Emeritus, or is the job of the Arbcom to support the community and encyclopedia? In the terms presented by Jimbo above, these are mutually exclusive things. rootology (C)(T) 06:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the way the ArbCom's been viewed traditionally is as a support for Jimbo — he handed over his own dispute-resolution powers to them, and expects them to do more or less what he would do, which is why he initially chose people he felt were like-minded. Similarly, the retired arbitrators are supposed to support the new ones, offering advice and institutional memory. I suppose the argument is that the old can't properly support the new unless there's a shared view of the world, and therefore the old ArbCom must necessarily be involved in choosing the new one, or at least should have the right to blackball. One of the things Jimbo wants to avoid, I assume, is an ArbCom that becomes dysfunctional because of internal conflict.

Problem is that it leaves us with the issue Random832 pointed out — namely, how does the community make its displeasure with current arbitrators known, if not by electing people strongly opposed to them? How do we deal with the problem of people thinking there's no point in standing, because either Jimbo or the ArbCom won't let them serve even if they're elected? SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 06:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, in the way that the Giano vote went last time - (from memory) only one candidate polled more supports, and most of the opposes were for the same reasons that many were voting support; a candidate who would shake up the existing order. Perhaps a candidate will emerge (or has already shown a willingness to run) who again will be the fulcrum for those dissatisfied with the status quo. Should such a candidate gain the required margins of (legitimate) votes and percentages then Jimbo and the existing ArbCom are placed in a position of acknowledging either the desire of the community for change or their own preferences in the composition of the body of last resort. Of course, it may be that such methods as tactical voting will not suffice in placing such a candidate in that position - which itself would be an argument that those dissatisfied with the present set up are in a minority. Of itself, such a "dissenters candidate" scenario would properly reflect the communities desire for change - even before it gets to Jimbo et al for any decision. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I just want to echo the concerns raised above. Jimbo is now moving the goalposts in a subtle way: in the past, he justified having himself as a check on the community's will by saying that he would only skip over an appropriately placed candidate under extremely unlikely circumstances involving the election of an obviously unsuited candidate; he claimed this was about as likely as the British monarch stepping into British politics, "one last safety valve for our values". Now he's saying that he wouldn't appoint anyone who didn't have the approval of the existing ArbCom and former arbitrators—a situation not unlike having the Queen say she wouldn't appoint a Prime Minister who wasn't endorsed by the party already in power. Is it reasonable to think that the arbitrators would approve anyone who they had previously sanctioned? Would they approve anyone who spoke actively in opposition to current ArbCom practices and decisions? Everyking (talk) 07:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't think the goal posts have moved, even last year success was dependent on ultimate approval by the Arbs - what has changed in the last year is that the community no longer trusts the Arbs or has grown less tolerant and prepared to accept unquestioningly the status quo- perhaps a little of all three. In short, the community has matured and now wants to run its own affairs, and Jimbo and his Arbs are the only people who seem to be unaware of this. This situation cannot continue. Jimbo should act now while he retains some respect and show the community some respect - otherwise nothing of worth is going to survive. Giano (talk) 17:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This requirement of approval from arbitrators has never been articulated before, and I think Jimbo is hardening his stance in reaction to the community's feelings and in anticipation of the possibility that he may find some of the candidates elected this year to be unacceptable. I certainly agree that the community has grown far more skeptical and critical of the ArbCom over the last year, and you're exactly right when you say that Jimbo must respect the community. Everyking (talk) 03:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin raises some stellar points. Arbitrators should not have a veto over the community's picks precisely because the community might wish to select a new crop of people with diverging ideas. More than once this year, Newyrokbrad has remarked that he's never seen so many established users upset with the process. NYB is a veteran clerk and arbitrator, and I think his observations are reliable. It's a true nadir for ArbCom, and future appointees might necessarily be at odds with the current members.

If you don't mean that arbitrators and emeritus arbitrators have a veto, please clarify your thoughts.

Incidentally, the terms of arbitrators ought to be shorter. I'm not the first to say this (and SlimVirgin makes a compelling case above). Very few arbitrators have ever served the whole term anyway, and even those arbitrators needed vacations. More importantly, shorter terms helps ensure that the community will not be governed by unresponsive and inactive arbitrators. Cool Hand Luke 21:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

A while ago, I presented a proposal for having all the arbitrator seats open at this election, and having full annual elections from here on; that proposal did not get much support at the time, but I think people should give it another look. Everyking (talk) 03:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• I would endorse that motion. Giano (talk)

Any timetable of further "limitations of power"

Just to second, what Giano has said above. I note, Jimbo, your own post here where you say "I have in fact voluntarily agreed to limitations of my power, and I will do so more and more over time". No comment on the first part, but on the second part you seem to indicate your own realization of that the "community has matured and now wants to run its own affairs", as Giano notes above. Besides, this is what every other language wikipedia does. And note, that the en-wiki is by far the most mature community of all of them. I think that the time to "do so more and more over time" has long since come, but perhaps you disagree with my assessment? Do you have any timetable of your own in mind? Also, why do you think en-wiki needs your guidance while other wikis, certainly less mature than enwiki overall, run well without it? --Irpen 18:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I have another question....

Can someone tell me how to make a user sub-page? Can any user make one, or just admin? Mr. Old-Skool (talk) 22:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Technically speaking, anyone can create a user sub-page, not just the user whose account it is. If you want to create a new sub-page, probably the simplest way is to enter into the searchbox "User:Mr. Old-Skool/PageNameHere", replacing PageNameHere with the desired page name, then clicking "Go". It'll ask if you'd like to create the sub-page, so click "Start the User:Mr. Old-Skool/pagename page" link. SMC (talk) 08:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Just for future reference, you'd probably get a faster response by placing your question on the Wikipedia helpdesk, which is designed for these kinds of Wikipedia-specific questions. Cheers. SMC (talk) 08:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

OMG

I'm talking to JIMBO WALES???? 1!!!!1oneone!!111 77.97.224.20 (talk) 11:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Also Jimbo, can you have a look into the Scots Wikipedia and tell me why it's necessary, seems an insult to me. Thanks. 84.13.92.162 (talk) 12:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Different language Wikis are approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Language subcommittee; although I can't find it, that committee has approved the creation of this Wiki. Try asking at the Meta Forum. --Rodhullandemu 13:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
    • m:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Scots. Hut 8.5 18:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
      • What the hell? "1.6 million active speakers and 2+ million passive understanding". They were kidding, right? 77.97.224.20 (talk) 01:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
        • No. PeterSymonds (talk) 07:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
          • I'd personally like to see where they got that from. 84.13.74.171 (talk) 13:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
            • Our article on the Scots language should be informative on the subject of how many speakers there are and how this is determined. Uncle G (talk) 18:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
              • It really isn't a language, it's just a very weak localization of English. I see now where the 1.6 active speakers came from now, but I still cannot grasp where the "2+ million passive understanding" comes from. Maybe you can enlighten me? 89.241.76.140 (talk) 19:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
                • According to [1], there's a large number of people who "understand Scots and probably use a number of Scots words on a day to day basis". 2.5 million is about half the population of Scotland. Hut 8.5 17:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
                • Perhaps its the number of people in the rest of the UK who watch River City. Rockpocket 00:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia's Expert Peer Review process (or lack of such) for Science related articles

Hi - I posted the section with the same name on my talk page. Could you take part in discussion ? Thanks ARP Apovolot (talk) 22:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

BLP privacy policy for limited public figures

I've made a proposal to clarify the policy here. Since you have previously expressed your opinion on the suitability of Joe the plumber as an encyclopedic topic, this is a notification for your input on the proposed policy clarification. VG ☎ 11:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Satire and parody

Jimmy, what is the proper way to write articles on works of satire and parody in which the cultural references they make are so obvious, but at the same time, not sourced, specifically when writing episodes of South Park? While some interpretation is subjective, and should be removed, other bits are so obvious that to not make mention of them would be ignoring the intent of the creators of the work. Specifically, there is an edit conflict on the Pandemic (South Park) article over this material. The parodies of Cloverfield and The Blair Witch Project in the episode are OBVIOUS. Do we really need a cite to establish what is clearly intended by the creators? How are we supposed to write about satire/parody when creators of such works generally do not explicitly tell us "Oh, here's where we were satirizing that movie...", and "Over here is where we were parodying that TV show...." Moreover, User:Alastairward keeps removing the Cloverfield references, even though that is referenced. Please advise. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 16:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The primary role of the Arbitration Committee

Do you see the primary role of the Arbitration Committee as having a policing function in which breaches in policy are investigated and prosecuted; or primarily having a dispute resolution function where interpersonal disputes are investigated and appropriate remedies applied? Martintg (talk) 02:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I see the primary role of the Arbitration Committee as having a dispute resolution function. However, I think that the ArbCom can and should take whatever actions are wise to ensure the smooth functioning of Wikipedia. As a trusted group of users with deep experience, I think they can and should sometimes take on some investigative roles and enforcement roles.

In my experience, when people ask questions like yours, they are usually not so much asking about the general philosophical or constitutional question, but rather expressing a concern about a specific case. Did you have something in mind?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)