Talk:American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009

March 11 WSJ article

I removed part of the section "Assessments by economists" that referenced a March 11 Wall Street Journal article on a survey of economists. Another editor reverted my edit, so I reverted and started this discussion. The article covers a WSJ survey of economists on the economic policy of the Obama administration. The article has the headline "Obama, Geithner Get Low Grades From Economists," and the edit in question focuses on this assessment. I don't think the "failing" grades deserve a place in this Wikipedia article. The survey covers all of the Obama administration's economic policies, so the failing grade includes TARP and other activities as well as the stimulus. There is no way to separate out the grade the economists gave for the stimulus from the rest of the economic policies. Also, we can't determine the reasons for the bad grade. The WSJ article states that 43% of the survey respondents thought the stimulus should have been larger. We don't know how many respondents graded Obama down for not having enough stimulus compared to those who marked him down for having too much. Considering we don't know how much of the "grade" applies to the subject of the article and can't determine the reasons for the grade, the survey results from the WSJ are meaningless when it comes to ARRA and don't have any place in this article. The only part of the WSJ article that directly refers to the stimulus is the fact that 43% of economists thought the stimulus was too small. If any part of the WSJ article applies it is the 43% fact, but we might as well cut the section entirely.--Bkwillwm (talk) 03:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Just state the 43% statistic and use the article as a reference. Keep the name of the article intact in your citation though. TomCat4680 (talk) 03:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The stimulus plan is the central element of discussion, and most of the critiquing is aimed at that bill. Dismissing the study based on the fact that Obama's economic policy contains other notable qualities is hardly a valid reason. We can include some tid-bit if it makes you feel better, like: "Economists were surveyed on Obama's handling of the economic crisis. They reviewed the stimulus package, tarp, etc..etc..." The source is not so vague and off-topic as you make it seem, thus I'm reinstating pending a consensus. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

You didn't really address any of points, and take another look at the WSJ article. The stimulus isn't discussed much, and the article even states "economists' main criticism of the Obama team centered on delays in enacting key parts of plans to rescue banks." Since the failing grade is mainly related to banking issues, mentioning it in this article is not appropriate. There are plenty of other sources that evaluate the stimulus directly. There is no reason to include the WSJ article.--Bkwillwm (talk) 12:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

That is your POV. By virtue of mentioning the stimulus package, we can include it. As I said, if it makes you feel better, we can be more explicit and say economists were surveyed on x, x and the stimulus package. It doesn't need to be a 10 page exposure to warrant inclusion. Please, do not remove cited material without a consensus. We don't want edit warring. Can you kindly self-revert? Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Because we can include something in an article doesn't mean that we should. The survey provided no useful information on the stimulus. Basically it tells us that a group of economists aren't happy about the handling of the banking crisis and may or may not also not approve of the handling of the stimulus for some reason--possibly because it was too small or too large. You haven't given any reason why this poll should be included or what it adds to the article. I'm not going to put this text back into the article. There's no policy that says that text must stay in until there is a consensus to remove. The current wording of the text is also inaccurate and misleading since it says the survey was "about the bill's impact," which it was not; the survey was on overall economic policy. The wording only reinforces the perception that the failing grades were directly related to the stimulus, which is contradicted by the section in the WSJ article itself that says most of criticism had to do with banking recovery policy.--Bkwillwm (talk) 22:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Your requirements for inclusion are a reflection of a common POV but not wikipedia. You're right, economists aren't happy with the stimulus package and survey reveals that. What's the problem? Your resistance to the inclusion is suspect, if not bewildering. As far as I'm concerned, the WSJ is as simple as simple goes, and it doesn't need to be a 100 page report to qualify for the article. If you really want to make this such big deal I will gladly plug in the dozens of notable research surveys that are far more explicit and critical than the WSJ findings. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I've only said that when we say something is about the stimulus, it should actually be about the stimulus. I don't see what's so controversial about that. I haven't said anything about length as a requirement for inclusion. If want to cite a notable source that actually explicitly says something about the stimulus, have at it.--Bkwillwm (talk) 00:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

But it does cite the stimulus. I'm trying to gauge your criticisms but I can't seem to figure out what is specifically lacking notability. Can you clarify? Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear what my problem with using the WSJ survey is. I'll try to sum up one more time. The "grade" was not on the stimulus, it was on the Obama's economic policy. The WSJ article specifically said that criticisms relating to the grade were focused on the Obama administration's handling of banking problems, so little or none of the "failing grade" applies to the stimulus. It's kind of like if your friend got a bad grade in a class, and you knew he had a bad grade on his final exam (banking), you can't assume he also failed his term paper (stimulus). You simply can't make that deduction.--Bkwillwm (talk) 02:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The "grade" was in reference to the stimulus plan and his economic policy, though the stimulus practically defines his overall domestic fiscal policy. Notice the timing of the bill's signing and the article, less than a month. Economists were reviewing its effects, or lack thereof. I don't deal with misrepresented analogies. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You have summarily dismissed all of my points. I don't see the point in more back and forth with you so I am moving on to a RfC.--Bkwillwm (talk) 04:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no. I responded to all of them. Your false analogy technically wasn't a point. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)