Talk:History of Belarus

Rydel vs. Anon

I don't want to quarrel with anyone, especially that some of us are somehow touchy. However, in a recent tiny edit war Rydel changed back Old Slavonic language to Old Belarusian language. What was the difference between the two and which one of the two was actually used there? I was always taught that it was Old Ruthenian language rather than its archaic form (Old Slavonic) or Old Belarusian language (whatever that is, none of my books mentions such a language so I assume it must be some alternative name for Old Ruthenian used by Belarusians nowadays). [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 15:51, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

This was only one of the several words that anonymous Samogitian has changed. Of course the anonymous Samogitian used the word Old Slavonic language because that's what they call Old Belarusian in Lithuanian. I guess the reasons for that are obvious. The "linguistic nationalism" of Lithuania is really scared of the new Belarusian nationalism, because both peoples lived together in peace in a single state for 500 years, and both peoples called themselved "Lithuanians" in their own tongues, but then thanks to certain events Samogitian (modern Lithuanian) nation took 100% of the old Lithuanian heritage, without wanting to share it with the modern Belarusians who have exactly the same share in that old Lithuanian heritage (or perhaps even more than the modern "Lithuanians"). Anyway, I am drifting away from the topic. So Lithuanians, the modern ones, want to delete any mention of the Belarusian nation. One of the things they do in their high school history books, they never use the term Old Belarusian language, but they use the term "Old Slavonic language used purely for chancellory paper needs", something like that. And of course, using the term Old Slavonic language in English is even more incorrect, because that refers to a totally different language (click on the link). As for the differences between Old Ruthenian language and Old Belarusian language, there are none. This is a reference to the same thing. So in Belarus the latter term is used, and I guess in English the former one is more widely spread. I think either term is OK, but I like Old Belarusian better, because when we say Old Ruthenian (or, especially! Old Russian), most people think it has something to do with Russian, while in fact it has very little to do with modern-day Russian and modern-day Russians. This is some language that was used in Ruthenia. When Russian empire took us over, the written traditions were suppressed. There was a gap, a hiatus, so we can't say there was an uniterrupted flow of development from that language to modern-day Belarusian. That's one argument I see against using the term "Old Belarusian". The second reason not to use the term "Old Belarusian" is because some Ukrainians say that their language also had exactly the same language as a basis. So these are the two arguments against using "Old Belarusian", but both of them can be disproved. First, there is a direct and undeniable link between the language of Francis Skaryna's "Biblija Ruska" (Ruthenian (Old Belarusian) Bible) and the modern language of Belarus. And there are numerous treatises showing the direct connection. It's a long topic, and I just don't have time to write a Ph.D. here, but I guess you are getting my point: using "Old Slavonic" is simply wrong. Using "Old Ruthenian" and "Old Belarusian" is fine, and in my opinion "Old Belarusian" is a bit better, more appropriate and logical term to use. --rydel 23:19, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A point to add: it is simply ridiculous to say that some common "Old Ruthenian language" was spoken from Black to Baltic seas and from White to Mediterranean seas. Of course, the written variants were closer to each other, but it is simply because those who "wrote" learned to do this from a very limited set of texts. Written language was never driving force of vernacular at these times, unlike today, when kids learn to read earlier than to speak :-). (not to say baout TV) It was exactly vice versa at these old times. And it is only natural to say that in the relatively well-defined territory of Belarus there was "Old Belarussian language". And the languages of Moscow, Vladimir and Novgorod differed from each other as well. And only because of pre-conceived idea of a "common old Russian language" was the reason of confusion and fuss about the "real" (?) language of The Tale of Igor's Campaign, of Skaryna's Bible (who, by the way, called its language "russki"), or of some other manuscripts.

Thusly, IMO Old Ruthenian language is a linguistic abstraction, a step in the direction from "real" languages towards the "reconstructed" "proto-indo-european language". 00:59, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm a Slavic languages freak so you don't have to explain the basics to me. No need to write a PhD here :) Anyway, to me the name Old Belarussian language seems like a synonym to Old Ruthenian language coined by present-day Belarussians rather than a linguistic, commonly accepted term ("Belarussian linguistic nationalism", as you'd put it). It's not that those cruel Samogitians fail to accept a simple truth, it's that barely anyone accepts it ([1], [2]).

As a matter of fact the language spoken "east of present-day Poland, west of present-day Russia" back in 10th to 16th centuries was spoken by more peoples than only the predecessors of modern Belarussians. That's exactly why there are so many similarities between modern Ukrainian and Belarussian languages, not only in grammar, but also in phonetics and even vocabulary. Following your logic we'd have to admit that large part of what is now Ukraine spoke Old Belarussian back then. That's why I prefer Old Ruthenian to Old Belarussian - it's simply much broader and at the same time much more precise. I also agree with you that the language used by Skaryna could be called Old Belarussian. But IMO the present Ukrainians have exactly the same right to call it Old Ukrainian. In terms of linguistic similarities one could also say that (G*d forgive me) it was Old Rusyn... Get the point?

As to the geographical dispersion of the language - of course you are right that the term "Old Ruthenian language" does not cover all "Eastern Slavic languages", but it was predecessor to more than one modern language and it had many dialects back then (as most languages on earth have), but these were more of dialects than separate languages. Similarly, back in the times of formation of GDL there was still little or no difference between Polish and Czech languages. Sometimes for simplicity's sake the language spoken around Poznan or Kraków in 10th century is referred to as Old Polish, but in fact the Old Polish language (Staropolszczyzna) was formed between 15th and 17th centuries.

As a side note, I have no idea why on earth Old Ruthenian language redirects to Old Russian language and not the other way around. All in all I'd propose a following solution:

• Move Old Russian language to Old Ruthenian language
• Place redirects from Old Russian language, Old Belarussian language, Old Ukrainian language and Late Old East Slavic language.
• Fix most of the related articles to point at Old Ruthenian language rather than to locally-used synonyms.

We had a huge, common linguistic family back then. Time to be proud of it and stop concealing it under artificial nationalist terms. Don't you think? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 02:10, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

Mission accomplished. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 22:06, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

I suppose "Old Slavonic language" is slightly more accurate alternative to "Old Belarusian language" - first, the term "Belarus" first appeared in late 19 century; second (and more important) the official written language of GDL wasn't always a dialect from nowadays Belarus - for instance, Vytautas (Vytovt) chancellery used rather "Ukrainian" dialect. I would go for "Old Slavonic", unless strong counter-arguments provided. User:mantas

Belarusian states - Novohradek

Please support your theory about Novohradek being the first capital city of GDL. Mindouh (Mindovg, Mindaugas) never had a capital city (at the time residence of a Duke wasn't stable); the 'capital' was first stabilised by Grand Duke (or Prince) Gedimin (Gediminas), and it wasnt Novohradek. Its of cause a historical dispute, but Novohradek teory has never been proved. user:mantas

It seems nobody can provide any evidence about Novohradek as capital of Lithuania, therefore I remove this part from the article as incorrect.Dirgela 18:27, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Russian Occupation

Is this a joke? This is history of Belarus not Poland. What's the point of even saying where did the other Polish areas went after the partition (and giving it more than 3/4 of the section), and the only other area was of course national uprisings. Independence and freedom? The uprisings were led by Poles not Belarussians. I am putting an NPOV on this article right now.Kuban kazak 23:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent source

Have a read here. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/arhiv/050513111111

Asking for a source

After Orthodox communities were disbanded by Polish administration, the use of Belarusian language was increasingly discouraged or suppressed. Please give an objective source-Commowealth was known for its religious tolerance. --Molobo 12:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the Polish Empire was known to all the world outside Poland for its intolerance. Or do you think Bohdan rebelled because he had nothing else to do? Follow the link provided above and you will get a picture. Even the previous Polonophile version of the article admitted that Belarusian was replaced with Polish by 1696. --Ghirlandajo 12:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Even the previous Polonophile version of the article admitted that Belarusian was replaced with Polish by 1696. I am not asking about that.Even so in regards to language you would have to say if it was ordered, by cultural repression or natural process. --Molobo 13:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Latest edits, factual dispute and POV problems

Lately Ghirlandajo and Kuban Kazak have completely rewritten parts of this article and I'm afraid part of the new version is a huge POV, intended to present the Polish rule in what is now Belarus in as bad light as possible, while at the same time claiming that Belarusians are in fact Russians. In particular, I see a problem with the following (see below)

Altogether, I believe the aproblems mentioned above need to be solved before we remove the dispute tag. BTW, I organized the list so that it was easier to respond below my comment. Halibutt 20:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Nope. The current version makes it clear that Belarusians are not Poles, that's all. The previous pro-Polish version, on the other hand, made no difference between the history of Poland and history of Belarus. There's no denying that. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlando, your blatant revert of my edit is very discouraging. I have provided sources for my additions, but you delete this, along with useful interlinks I made, with a justification no different then a thinly veiled personal attack.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

All right.... I asked for your comments to be posted below mine. However, as someone decided to ignore my plea, I removed all the alien comments from mine and divided the discussion onto separate sections. That way we'll have less problems with following the discussion and who says what. I guess it was not his intention, but thanks to Ghirlandajo for some time all of my comments were subscribed under his name, as if he was agreeing with me. Anybody else finds it as funny as I do?

As to specific concerns - see below. Halibutt 00:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Piotr, originally it was you who blatantly reverted my step-by-step edits, although I had justified each minor edit in summaries which you apparently didn't care even to follow, let alone to answer. --Ghirlandajo 09:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

What 'step by step' edits? I reverted your revertion of my edit, in which you deleted not only content I added but innocent ilinks that I added like linking Polish Crown to the Crown of the Polish Kingdom.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, right, a u vas negrov ubyvayut... Anyway, instead of calling Poles with extremely offensive words in the edit histories you could take some time to reply to the questions raised. Or apologize to people you offend. Halibutt 09:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, I see that it's your favourite strategem to endlessly beg for apologies, while failing to address issues raised above. There are several Russian sayings, most of them unquotable, to the following effect: На обиженных воду возят. This short maxim may incidentally explain to you several sinister turns of the Polish history, which you seem to particularly bother about. Stupid Katsap (as I had the privilege of being styled by one of your courteous friends in an edit summary several hours ago) 09:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Was it before or after you styled him a Polack? Also, so far I adressed all the questions here, so there's no such strategem here. And I still demand at least a word of excuse, if an apology is too much for you. Calling people Polacks is not the way I want to be styled and I did not deserve to be offended by you. Or perhaps you see this differently? Halibutt 13:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I actually didn't know that the term is considered offensive in Poland. "He smote the sleaded Polack on the ice" (Shakespeare, Hamlet). Anyway, I don't remember having called Cadet this name. Please provide a citation.--Ghirlandajo 13:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The term you used is clearly offensive to Poles. And your good English suggests that your supposed ignorance about the fact is false. Halibutt 15:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, I applied it to a 17th-century personage. At that time, the word was frequently applied to the Poles, otherwise you should bowdlerize Shakespeare. Secondly, you and your friends frequently (ab)use the term Muscovy, which is considered offensive in Russia, on the basis that it used to be widespread in the 17th century. I don't see why you can use Muscovy anywhere you want and I can't use Polacks when alluding to the period, even in a summary. --Ghirlandajo 15:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

No, Ghirlandajo, in modern English calling a Pole Polack is not like calling Muscovy Московия in Russian. It's like calling a Russian Vodka Pisser. And you know it. End of topic, case closed. Halibutt 15:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh, Halibutt, my opinion of your general culture degrades daily. A fortnight ago you announced that any person who "speaks Russian, drinks vodka and sings Katyusha - he's a Russian". Now we get a prettier definition of a Russian from you - "Vodka Pisser". Abuse of such racist stereotypes already cost you an adminship and it probably still motivates your agressive behaviour on Russia-related articles. --Stupid Katsap and Vodka Pisser 16:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry but you are using personal attacks of the worst kind. Halibutt never announced things you say, he only remarked that a persone from the West my have an innacurate stereotype of Russian. Furthermore he didn't call in this talk nobody names just showed what would be the equivalent of insults you use against Polish people. --Molobo 16:21, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Molobo, his (and Piotrus's) unwaning support and encouragement of your disruptive behaviour says it all. Tell me who is your friend, and I'll tell you who you are. --Ghirlandajo 16:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Which does go far to explain why you have so many friends here, Ghir. Perhaps you should step back and examine your behaviour. If you are so right, why is it that the entire discussion is looking like 'people vs. Ghirlandajo'? Surely if your POV is the corret one, you would have much more support then...well...just yourself?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:11, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: 1

1. During the period of Polish rule (1569-1795), trade passed into the hands of Jews and Poles who settled primarily in the cities, while the rural population remained predominantly Ruthenian (Belarusian). - in fact the trade was a domain of Jews and Armenians even before, as hardly any noble, be it Polish szlachta or Ruthenian boyars, saw trade as something honourable. And most of the trade remained in Jewish or Armenian hands even afterwards, until 19th century. Halibutt

This phrase should be moved to the previous section on GDL, that's all. Ghirlandajo

Well, I believe it should be either explained or deleted. It was neither something typical for Poland or for Lithuania, it happened everywhere in Europe and there it should rather be explained as a migration, not the way you did it so as to suggest that someone gave the trade to Jews and took it from someone. Halibutt 23:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

So you think that the article on History of Belarus should omit the fact that Belarusians were banished by Poles and Jews to live in the fields? I have to disagree here. Jewish/Polish occupation of Belarusian cities is a key factor in national history, which explains glaring absence of Belarusian nobility, intelligentsia and freedom movement since the 17th century onward. Also, Belarusian Jews - such as Marc Chagall, not to mention all those Slutskers and Brodskys - played a vital part in the culture of Eastern (you prefer to call it Central) Europe. --Ghirla 09:15, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Provide evidence for your claims and I might reconsider. However, unless you provide evidence that someone purposedly prohibited Ruthenians from trade or that the 19th century Jew named Marc Chagall could not start his career in Russia because of 16th century Polish rule, I believe this edit to be both incorrect and malicious. Halibutt 11:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what you are talking about. Where did I say that "Ruthenians" as you call them were "prohibited" from trade. These fantasies are your own. --Ghirlandajo 11:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

So how about replacing the statement above with something like: Throughout their existence as a separate culture, Ruthenians (Belarusians) formed in most cases rural population, with the power held by local szlachta and boyars. Also, as in the rest of Central Europe the trade and commerce were mostly monopolized by Armenians and Jews, who formed a large part of the urban population in what is now Belarus? Halibutt 14:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: 2

1. Belarusian language was relegated to secondary positions - not really, although Polish was preferred by the Polish-speaking nobles, whatever their religion was. Also, we should rather be speaking of Ruthenian, which was in use back then, and not Belarusian, which was formed in its modern sense in 19th century. Halibutt

   This I quite agree with, being one of the initiators of this strange wikiterm - Ruthenian language. Other articles, however, - such as Francysk Skaryna - operate with the term "Belarusian language" or "Old Belarusian", and we can do little to mend this. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

So how about simply mentioning that Despite of the actual language of the population of the Commonwealth, in the GDL the chancery language was Old Ruthenian language, which is a predecessor of modern Belarusian and Ukrainian languages. In XXXX the official chancery language was replaced with Polish, more commonly spoken by the upper classes.? It would be more correct, less POV and definitely based on actual knowledge... Halibutt 00:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

There's no denying that Belarusian has been dimissed as a dialect of peasants, whereas the Polish (and then Russian) was the language of education and government. There is no need to dissimulate the facts with pointless wordsmithship. --Ghirlandajo 09:21, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

So why to create facts that never happened? I doubt anyone spent any efforts to limit its importance, contrary to what you suggest. There was no activity directed against it, rather lack of interest on the side of higher classes, that's all. Halibutt 11:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Lack of interest on the side of higher classes? Because higher classes were completely polonized. If the higher classes are Polish catholics, of course they have little interest in Orthodoxy and Belarusian language. It would have been weird if Yankee colonists started to adopt native American worship and language. --Ghirlandajo 11:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course, the polonization, russification or lithuanization of the higher classes was part of the problem. However, the language of the Ruthenians (as you called them in the part of the article quoted above) was not relegated from anything to anywhere. It was simply not used by the people who had the power. Not using one's brain is not equal to relegating it anywhere. Halibutt 12:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: 3

1. Eastern Orthodox peasantry was converted to Uniatism against their will. complete rubbish, probably backed by Great Soviet Encyclopedia or some Russian 19th centurish source. Contrary to 19th century Russia, nobody forcibly converted anyone in PLC (perhaps apart from isolated cases where a local gentry member was strongly against the Orthodox faith. However, it wasn't until 19th century that any church was forbidden on these lands - and it was the Uniate church, not Orthodoxy (strongly supported by Russia). Halibutt

   This i'm not in position to comment upon, as the phrase was not added by me. As best I understand, however, it was impossible to make a successful career in the PLC or to get a government appointment, if you were not a Roman Catholic. There are innumerable monographs on these religious issues, both pro-Catholic and pro-Orthodox, which interested parties may cite in the article. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

   Source http://www.pravoslavie.ru/arhiv/050513111111 - Kuban kazak 22:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

   Although I have no sources for this ATM, from what I read this was very rare, if happened at all (Jarema Wiśniowiecki actions?). Szlachta usually left peasants to their own doings, this is why after Raskol Russian religious minorities esacaped to Poland. Would you have any sources about religious persecutions of Ruthenian peasnaty? What Ghirlandajo writes about career is true when reffering to the 17th century, where due to Zygmunt III Waza obsession with Catholicism the Warsaw Compact was seriously undermind (for example, he gave official titles only to the Catholics). Also, Union of Brest was his idea, and although there were no violent persecutions, for example Catholics (and Unionists) got more prominent places for their churches and such.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

EB is not the source like the chronicles are but it is peer reviewed to conform the mainstream historiographic view. From EB's history of Belarus:

Although [after Lublin] Lithuania retained the title of grand duchy and its code of laws, its western province Podlasia, which had been heavily settled by Polish colonists, was ceded to Poland, as were the steppe lands and Kiev. Among the Belarusian population a mainly Polish-speaking Roman Catholic aristocracy developed, but the peasantry on the whole remained Orthodox. In 1596 the Union of Brest-Litovsk signaled an attempt to unify the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches in the Polish-Lithuanian state [..] The rule of the Polish landowners was often heavy and unpopular, and many Belarusians (especially those opposed to joining the Eastern-rite church) fled to the steppe lands that were home to the Cossacks. Large-scale Cossack-led revolts occurred in 1648–54, but the Belarusian lands remained under Poland until the reign of Catherine II (the Great) of Russia (1762–96). Economic development was slow, especially in the extensive Pripet Marshes. The Belarusian population was almost entirely engaged in agriculture, while trade lay in the hands of Poles and Jews.

From EB's history of UA

"...Ukraine was “colonized” by both Polish and Ukrainian great nobles. Most of the latter gradually abandoned Orthodoxy to become Roman Catholic and Polish. These “little kings” of Ukraine controlled hundreds of thousands of “subjects”... The new Eastern-rite church became a hierarchy without followers while the forbidden Eastern Orthodox church was driven underground. Wladyslaw's recognition of the latter's existence in 1632 may have come too late. The Orthodox masses—deprived of their native protectors, who had become Polonized and Catholic—turned to the Cossacks. [...] The heavy-handed behaviour of the “little kings,”... was resented even by small nobles and burghers. Growing socioeconomic antagonisms combined with religious tensions."

So much about "equality" of Orthodoxy with Catholicism. What surprizes me is that this discussion pops up from talk page to talk page with not just Britannica, but some historians sited too, and then we get this all over again about the myth on the religious freedom and equality in PLC as well as about the Warsaw compact, indeed an amazing document for its time, being realized in full on the ground (which it wasn't). --Irpen 00:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure, I agree with almost all of the above, especially when speaking about the times of the Vasas, which were surely the worst kings we ever had (even Stanisław August was better). However, who converted the Orthodox people by force? When? How? And if the Orthodox church was illegal, then why where there Orthodox churches built? Halibutt 00:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Are sure they were built in the first decades of the 17th century? Examples, please. --Ghirlandajo 09:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Again: who converted the Orthodox people by force? When? How? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 09:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Why do you address this query to me? --Ghirlandajo 09:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Because you attempted to answer it but missed the point. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 18:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I did not "attempt to answer it" but said: "This i'm not in position to comment upon". Read above. Your rudeness is appaling. When you ran out of argument, Halibutt obliquely referred to me as a "vodka pisser", and your friend Space Cadet labelled me as a "stupid he-goat". Very well, I expect new and more outrageous insults. Unfortunately, your behaviour induces me to think that incivility is a national feature of the Poles. --Ghirlandajo 18:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I would need to look for the quotes, but from what I remember, it wasn't always illegal but it was always obstructed to different degrees. And yes, at times it was illegal. As for the times were Orthodoxy was allowed but suppresses, at some point, non-Roman churches were taxed, while the Roman ones were not. Also the permits to build new churches were denied. Besides, the church buildings were forcibly locked and the peasant had to pay a fee to obtain a key to baptized a child. Since the local managers, who kept the keys were often Jews, the idea of being forced to pay to a Jew to get a child baptized added to certain sentiments among Ukrainians and during the later revolts the Jews were slaughtered en masse together with the Poles. Of course most of the people slaughtered had nothing to do with the oppression and the Jews were largely oppressed themselves, but didn't have their own "Cossacks" to turn for protection. --Irpen 01:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

EB seems to be quite correct here and we may want to incorporate some of their statements into our text. As I wrote, there might have been - there probably were - incident involving forced convertions, but they were rare. While Warsaw Compact promised religious tolerance, it was often abused, nonetheless the religious tolerance of the PLC was unprecedented for its time - which doesn't say it was as good as what we recognize as a standard today. In addition, if we are talking about religious tolerance and how Catholic Church was bullying the Orthodox (and Protestants) in the PLC, we should perhaps remmember how it was solved in the Muscovy: Russia simply banned Catholic Church. Anyway, the quite here is disputed because it implies that ALL Orthodox peasantry was forcibly converted (or at least it was a common happening) - which was not the case (feel free to provide sources indicating otherwise, or even documenting exeptions).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:33, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Russia simply banned Catholic Church? If you followed a link supplied by Kuban Kazak, you would learn that there were periods when Russian adminsitration funded Polish ksiadzs at the expense of Russian Orthodox clergy. --Ghirlandajo 09:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid I don't read Russian. Can you provide any English sources? I can find many that support my point. Consider for example the Catholic Encyclopedia: "After the Council of Florence, the fanaticism of the Russians in regard to the Latin Church increased. The Latins were not even considered citizens. They were not allowed to build churches in Russian cities.] (...) Peter the Great revealed his anti-Catholic hatred when, at Polotsk in 1705, he killed with his own hand the Basilian Theophanus Kolbieczynski, as also by many other measures; he caused the most offensive calumnies against Catholicism to be disseminated in Russia; he expelled the Jesuits in 1719; he issued ukases to draw Catholics to Orthodoxy, and to prevent the children of mixed marriages from being Catholics; and finally, he celebrated in 1722 and in 1725 monstrous orgies as parodies of the conclave, casting ridicule on the pope and the Roman court. (...) From the time of Peter the Great to Alexander I, the history of Catholicism in Russia is a continuous struggle against Russian legislation: laws that embarrassed the action of Catholicism in Russia that favoured the apostasy of Catholics, and reduced the Catholic clergy to impotence were multiplied each year, and constituted a Neronian code. In 1727, to put a stop to Catholic propaganda in the Government of Smolensk, Catholic priests were prohibited from entering that province, or, having entered it, were prohibited from occupying themselves with religious matters; the nobility was forbidden to leave the Orthodox communion, to have Catholic teachers, to go to foreign countries, or to marry Catholic women. Of course CE is hardly NPOV, but it does cite some interesting facts. Now can you provide English sources showing that "there were periods when Russian adminsitration funded Polish ksiadzs at the expense of Russian Orthodox clergy"?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

So much about "equality" of Orthodoxy with Catholicism. The article don't say about repression, persecution only about "heavy handness", even colonisation is in the brackets. The articles seem to say that due to alienation of nobility from peasants problems developed not that the nobles persecuted the peasents as the current version tries to allege. --Molobo 01:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re:4

1. Despite severe repressions vibrant Belarusian culture flourished in the Orthodox communities of major Belarusian cities - this seems unsourced as well, not to mention the fact that it limits the Belarusian culture to Orthodox minority only and speaks not a word of the Uniate majority... or the Catholics, who also constituted a large part of what is now the Belarusian culture, be it material or spiritual. Also, a mention of Jews, Tatars and Armenians would be a good thing here IMO. Halibutt

   I know nothing about Armenian or Tatar culture in Belarus, so you are welcome to add data on these communities, if you think they were vitally important for Belarus. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

   Memo to self: translate pl:Tatarzy w Polsce.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

   You may also want to translate en:Lipka Tatars :-) mikka (t) 22:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

   Tnx for that one, I didn't try this name (I did try Lipkowie, Polish Tatars and Tatars in Poland. I am going to create some redirects and interwiki links, of course - those article talk (mostly) of the same people.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

This definitely needs to be added to the article. In the article on History of Poland the ethnic and cultural mixture is well-described. So is the case with History of Lithuania. Why not insert it here, in an article about one of the most culturally-diverse regions of the Commonwealth? Halibutt 00:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

...BTW, this also applies to point No.2, as both could be treated the same way. Halibutt 14:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re:5

1. After Belarusian peasantry volunteered to take part in the anti-Polish movement led by Bohdan Khmelnytsky, deputations from several Belarusian towns arrived to Moscow, asking the tsar for interference on their part - which also needs some source. And even if it was true, we should also mention thousands of people of Belarus who fought on the side of the Commonwealth against the rioters. Halibutt

1. I provided a link to the GSE, which BTW is a perfectly valid source of historical data. As valid as scores of obscure Polish hack writers you regularly intoxicate your brains with. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

First of all, please watch your language. There's a serious problem to be solved and suggesting that some sources intoxicate while others don't won't help us here.

Then, where is the link you posted? It's definitely not here nor can I see it in the article

Last but not least, the Great Soviet Encyclopedia is not considered a credible source even by Wikipedia, not to mention modern historians. Could you please try to use some modern sources? Halibutt 00:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The quote above from Britannica may help sort this out. --Irpen 00:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure. But I still believe we should mention the other side of the story, not only the one presented in the current version. Halibutt 00:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You should read the article more carefully or ask Piotrus who left the links in the text during his previous revert. If you assert that GSE is "not considered a credible source even by Wikipedia", you are bound to provide a link to appropriate section of Wikipedia Guidelines and then I will not quote it any more. On the other hand, if this statement is a personal opinion of Halibutt, Molobo, Rydel, and Co, you may continue gaping at your cheap propaganda booklets about alleged Russian massacres, which I daresay are "not considered a credible source even by Wikipedia" as well. --Ghirlandajo 09:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Believe me, I did read the article carefully before posting my comments. There's no need to suggest my ignorance or my bad faith. As to GSE - check the article on Great Soviet Encyclopedia. If I were to find a more biased encyclopedia ever written I would have a serious trouble. As far as I remember, it reflected only the Russian POV mixed with Communist/Marxist propaganda - and that's what is mentioned even in the current wiki article on it. Pretty, pretty please, could you find some more acceptable source? Or at least post the link to the article in GSE you find relevant and unbiased? Halibutt 11:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Three random samples of unbiased articles in the GSE: [3], [4], [5] --Ghirlandajo 12:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

ROTFL :) For non-Russians who might find the links not that funny - they are articles on force interactions (electromagnetism, gravity and such), magnetic resonance and Charged particle accelerators. Surely the abovementioned articles are relevant to the history of Belarus, after all the laws of physics work even there... Anyway, this only supports the statement by Aegis Maelstrom, who at Talk:Polish capture of Kiev (1018) recently stated that Basing on this "source" you may contribute "successfully" to articles like USA, capitalism or Spanish Civil War as well. =) This encyclopediae can be used only as a source in 1. maths 2. history of propaganda.. Halibutt 13:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re:6

after Orthodox communities were disbanded by Polish administration - seems yet another absurd... Any proof of that? Which communities? Where? Why? When? Halibutt 00:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why my link to bratstvo was deleted, but your complete ignorance of the phenomenon clearly indicates that Eastern Orthodoxy in Polish-occupied territories is still a closed book to you. The article about Bratski Monastery in Kiev has long been on my to-do list, but unfriendly developments in the ua segment of this project would probably prevent me from enlarging on this important issue in the nearest future. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

bratstvo is a red link - could you elaborate on this? Does it have to to with Union of Brest? I plead ignorance in this case, and would be happy to learn more if you can provide some sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the idea of bratstvo is obscure to me, though your accusations of ignorance are hardly an argument in our discussion. Please, stick to facts and not to offences. Ok? Halibutt 00:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Once again, check the links provided by me in the text of the article before crying murder. --Ghirlandajo 09:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Which ones? Could you post the relevant link here? Halibutt 11:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You are welcome: http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/001/134.htm --Ghirlandajo 12:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Translation for non-Russians follows:

Bratstvos (brotherhoods) were Ukrainian and Belarussian national-religious organizations formed between 15th and 18th centuries at Orthodox churches in Ukraine, Belarus and parts of Lithuania for the fight against national suppression and forcible catholicization of Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians of Orthodox faith. The first were founded in 15th century, although there were similar organizations formed in Lvov and Vilna even earlier, in Kamieniec Podolski and Rohatyń (1589), in Mohylów (1590), Brześć (1591), Przemyśl (1592) and other places. They were based on democratic principles. Every person who participated in the funding of the society could be its member. The main bulk of its members were burghers, although the clergy, szlachta and peasants were also admitted. In 1620 the Kievan bratstvo joined the Zaporizhian forces led by Sahaydachny. Their internal formation resembled mediaeval trade unions, the bratstvo had also their charters. (...) B. fought against Jesuit propaganda, and promotion of catholic and uniate rites in Ukraine and Belarus, they fought for national and cultural independence of these nations and maintained contacts with Russia, Moldavia and southern Slavs. B. led many cultural and educational facilities, among them schools and printing houses, with the cultural forces gathered around them. On the basis of the Kievan B. in 1632 a Kiev College (later Academy) was formed. The schools formed a large number of writers, scientists, politicians, teachers, printers, and artists, who strengthened the links between Ukrainians and Belarusians with the Russian nation. Among them were Iov Boretskiy, Lavrentiy Zizaniy, Pamva Berynda, Zakhariy Kopystenskiy, Epifaniy Slavinetskiy and others.

In 2nd part of the 17th and in 18th centuries, with the strenthening of feudal system, the role of B. in political activity gradually weakened. In Galicia and on the right bank of the Dnepr they entered in conflict with the clergy, while on the left bank they were forced to fulfill only religious and social tasks. B., still existant in certain village and municipal Orthodox churches even in 19th century, dropped their political and cultural activities, although they retained certain traditions of the earlier B. In late 19th and early 20th centuries some Orthodox church activists formed clerical organizations named Bratstva and referencing to their traditions, although these had nothing to do with the earlier but the name.

Sources:

• K. Guslistiy, Sketches from the History of Ukraine, in: Fight for the Liberation of the Ukrainian Nation from the Szlachta Poland in the Second Half of 16th and firts half of 17th centuries, Kiev, 1941.
• Ya. D. Isayevich, Bratstva and their role in Development of Ukrainian Culture in 16th-18th centuries, Kiev, 1966
• A. Yeremenko, Southern-Russian Bratstva in his Southern Rus', 1905.

Now then, let me ask where does this article mention any oppression? If they were disbanded then how so many of them survived to 19th century? The only forcible limitations on their activity mentioned in this article took place in left bank Ukraine, that is... yes, you guessed it, in Russia. Halibutt 12:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

And then let me ask you why should this article mention oppression? You asked what is bratstvo, and here you have an answer. Kudos for the translation, by the way, now we may start an article on bratstvo.--Ghirlandajo 13:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's set some things straight then, you claimed that after Orthodox communities were disbanded by Polish administration something happened. I asked what communities were disbanded and you mentioned bratstvos as an example and provided this link to back your claims up. Sadly, there is nothing to support your claims there. Halibutt 13:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, your comments again prove that you haven't scrutinized the article at all. Please return to the text and check which links back up which claims. --Ghirlandajo 13:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid it is you who needs to quote the relevant part of the elink source to prove your claim.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Support - reference inadequate. There is literally nothing about any persecutions. aegis maelstrom δ 09:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

You simply can't live without accusing others of being ignorant, can you... Let me rephrase my comment above in a last attempt to find some sort of a solution to your problems with abiding by the rules of wikiquette.

You claimed that Despite severe repressions, vibrant Belarusian culture flourished in the [[bratstvo|Orthodox communities of major Belarusian cities]]. and that After Orthodox communities were disbanded by Polish administration, the use of Belarusian language was increasingly discouraged or suppressed.. So, I asked what communities were disbanded and you clearly clarified here that you meant the bratstvos. When asked for sources you provided one Russian article that does not even mention their persecution in Poland, not to mention that it does not support your version that they were disbanded by anyone. So, please be so kind as to provide some other source that would back your claims up. Halibutt 14:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

In addition the article uses as source propaganda material from Tsarists and Stalinist regime. I already provided link explaining how history under both regimes was falsified. --Molobo 16:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re:7

1. By the 18th century the rapacity of Polish nobles plunged the country into anarchy, making the once powerful empire vulnerable to foreign influence. Eventually Poland was partitioned by its neighbors, which meant that Belarusians were reunited with majority of their Orthodox East Slavic brethren. - now that is entirely a Russian POV, with unification of all Slavic brethren sounding like a perfect example of 19th century pan-Slavist propaganda and trying to blame Poland herself for the imperial politics of Russia or Prussia is what Russian historians were trying to do throughout the 19th century. It seems especially disturbing that a perfectly valid paragraph was replaced with this text. Before the latest changes it went like this: The independence of the Commonwealth ended in a series of partitions (1772, 1793 and 1795) undertaken by Russia, Prussia and Austria, with Russia gaining most of the Commonwealth's territory including nearly all of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania (except Podlachia and lands West from Niemen river), Volhynia and Ukraine. (...) The last heroic attempt to save the state's independence was a Polish-Belarusian-Lithuanian national uprising (1794) led by Tadevus Kasciuska, however it was eventually quenched.. While not perfect, it was definitely less one-sided. Halibutt

   As was pointed out by other editors before, this passage belongs to History of Poland rather than to History of Belarus. It is irrelevant to the article on Belarus which provinces of Poland were taken by Prussia and which by Austria. Halibutt, we are all aware of your sado-masochistic pleasure at endlessly repeating how innocent Poles were abused and "massacred" by bad guys from Russia and Germany, but the article on Belarusian history is definitely a wrong place to indulge in this kind of guilty pleasures. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

   It's pleasant to see you in the same league with Molobo once again, joining Molobish hysterical fears of "19th-century pan-Slavist propaganda". It's a pity, however, that the great pan-Slavists - Safarik, Kostomarov - cannot respond to these slurs. Rephrasing your own words, the whole polish segment of en.wiki is an ongoing attempt to blame Russia and Germany for all the crap proliferating in Poland. Anyway, you should be aware that editors of other nationalities are not bound to tolerate Polish hysterics. Perhaps it's time to review tons of russophobic bullshit that were spawned by you, Molobo, Emax, Cadet, and Co here in the previous years. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

   You fail to provide any arguments but assume bad faith and make personal attacks. Please, back up your claims with sources or aplogize for your accusations.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, some apologies would be in place. And again, Ghirlandajo, I ask you to reply to my questions, not to what you think of me personally or of my nationality. Stick to the topic and we'll end this matter quickly. As to the main topic: indeed, the previous version was not perfect as it was too long and could be shortened to mention only the parts grabbed by Russia. However, I still fail to understand how the current passage is better. Halibutt 00:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: 9

1. Following the French emperor Napoleon I's defeat of Prussia, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was again set up under French tutelage. Belarusian peasants, however, fiercely resisted the renewed Polish ascendancy. - I beg your pardon? The French recreated the GDL? Any sources for that? Apart from that, we should also mention the Belarusians that fought against the Russian yoke side by side with Poles and Napoleon. Otherwise we'd have only one side of the story mentioned. Halibutt

I don't care who added this idiotic passage to the article. Check the history. I'm not aware of any Belarusians fighting against what you call the Russian yoke, however. On the other hand, Poniatowski's army was full of Polish nobles who deplored the loss of their estates and peasants in Belarus, but these were Poles not Belarusians.--Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

So, this could be deleted, right?

As to your comments - I seriously doubt it. In fact by then hardly any noble lost a single serf or village in the east. Instead, the Polish magnates even strengthened their rule over the peasants as in Russia they had even more rights than in PLC or Poland. That's why the pro-Napoleonic uprising in Lithuania was much weaker and mostly popular, contrary to what Mickiewicz suggests. Simply the upper classes had little interest in supporting the French, contrary to the peasants and burghers. Halibutt 00:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: 10

They were active in guerilla movement against Napoleon's occupation and did their best to annihilate the remains of the Grande Armée when it crossed the Berezina River in November 1812. - Battle of Berezina was not carried out by guerillas but by regular Russian army under Kutuzov Halibutt

So now you deny that there was a Belarusian guerilla movement against Napoleon's invasion? Probably Polish books are silent about that.--Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Please re-read my question above and try to reply to what is written there, not to what you have in mind. Halibutt 00:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: 11

Although under Nicholas I and Alexander III the national cultures were repressed in attempt to "de-polonise" [6] the population which included the return of the population to Orthodoxy, - and why not to mention the fact that the Russians delegalized the Uniate church and forcibly converted all Uniates to Orthodoxy? Also, the mention of the November Uprising and January Uprising, both the most active in modern lands of Belarus, was erased by someone. Why? I guess it was removed because it doesn't fit the scheme of happy loyal Russian subjects and the angry Polish pans persecuting their slaves, though I admit there might've been some other reason. Halibutt

We've seen for so many months how you imagine the Belarusian history should look like: perfect equality of "Ruthenians" with Poles in the PLC, rapturous mass conversions of Belarusians to Uniatism and Papism, the so-called Deluge which claimed the lives of every 3rd citizen of the Commonwealth, and three glorious rebellions. Sorry, all this doesn't belong to the article on Belarus. Belarusians were peasants, and quite indifferent to all three rebellions too. The history of Poland and BElarus is not the same, and you have to live with it. It is really disturbing that you Poles still treat Belarus as it were still your colony, just like 250 years ago.--Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

You're more than one? I thought you were a single Ghirlandajo, and not multiple people... Anyway, you did not reply to my suggestions. And please do not offend me. This article is about the place in the world called Belarus, not on the History of Belarusians. Hence it should include the histories of all the peoples living there together with the East Slavs. Yes, including the Poles. And again, if you see the conversion to Uniate rite which took 300 years as forcible, then why don't you see re-conversion of the entire nation to Orthodoxy as equally forcible, eventhough it took 10 minutes (a single ukaz)? Halibutt 00:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well if you read the article I have provided it shows that a) as soon as Poland was partitioned almost all parished in the eastern guberniyas willfully returned to Orthodoxy.b) Initially Russia was extreamely tolerant of Uniates (or Basilians as they were called).c) The Unia was terminated in 1839 not 1795, and it was done when the whole sinod of the church joined Orthodoxy without any interference from the Russian state. d)and finaly something special:

Воссоединение униатов нанесло католицизму и полонизму в Белоруссии сокрушительный удар, от которого им уже не суждено было оправиться. Но каковыми оказались исторические последствия этого события для белорусов? Конечно, это все те последствия, которые историки связывают с вхождением Белоруссии в состав Российской империи, ведь, как мы уже говорили, без воссоединения Россия не сумела бы цивилизационно привязать к себе свой Северо-Западный край. Во-первых, ликвидация унии духовно соединила все части белорусского народа, расколотые унией, в единое целое, восстановило его цельность.[75] Во-вторых, подрыв позиций полонизма и католицизма в Белоруссии привел к постепенному возвращению белорусов к их истокам. В-третьих, воссоединение дало толчок становление самосознания народа, которое, прежде всего, выражается языковым самоопределением. Со всей очевидностью это явление нашло отражение в результатах всеобщей переписи населения Российской империи, прошедшей в 1897 г. Здесь население всех белорусских губерний, и западных и восточных, однозначно назвало свой родной язык не русским, как во времена унии, но белорусским.[76] В-четвертых, ликвидация унии придала новый мощный импульс развитию белорусского языка, формированию его литературной формы.[77] В-пятых, начало делать первые шаги национально-культурное возрождение белорусов. В-шестых, возник научный интерес к изучению истории, этнографии и фольклора белорусского народа. Из всего сказанного следует, что воссоединение униатов сдвинуло с мертвой точки искусственно замороженный в Речи Посполитой процесс превращения белорусской народности в белорусскую нацию.

-- Kuban kazak 17:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: 12

Belarusian economy was booming, particularly after the emancipation of the serfs in 1861. Peasants sought a better lot in large industrial centres, with some 1,500,000 people leaving Belarus in half a century preceding the Russian Revolution of 1917. - again, if a 4th part of the local population leaves for Poland, Germany or America, then perhaps the economy was not as booming as someone portrays it here. Halibutt

Data on booming economy is taken from Britannica 2004, but you are free to prove that the economy of late 19th-century Belarussia was in fact as stagnant as that of 18th-century Polish Lithuania. The facts show, however, that Polish economy had never been more prosperous in any other period of its history than at the turn of the 20th century. --Ghirlandajo 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Sadly, I don't have the EB04 at hand. Anyone care to provide the relevant part? As to Polish economy blooming in early 20th century - I seriously doubt it. Of course, there was a period of fast industrialization, but overall Poland was one of the poorest lands in Europe back then. It would be hard to decide whether the ever-starving Galicia and Lodomeria was poorer than rural and unindustrialized Belarus back then, though I doubt such a choice is to be made here. Anyway, you still did not reply to my question: if the economy was so blooming, then why the hell some 25% of the entire land left for other places? Perhaps they were not happy with the joyful rule of the tsar? Or perhaps they felt the factories are too loud? Halibutt 00:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, honestly, your ignorance is startling. Have you ever heard about Industrial Revolution? Have you ever heard that it was accompanied by wide-scale migration of rural population to the urban industrial centres? Have you ever heard about Lodz becoming the textile capital of Europe during the Russian rule? --Ghirlandajo 09:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Accuse me of ignorance once more and I'm going to aks for comments or some more serious user problem resolution process to be started. Sorry, but it's over the top. I'm fed up with your accusations, with your namescalling, with your offensive tone and language. Try to focus on the problem with this article, not your problems with Poles in general and we'll be all much more happy here.

As to industrial revolution and Łódź - indeed, some cities grew, even Łódź became the textile capital despite Russian attempts to destroy it economically (taxation and customs border between Privislyanskiy Kray anyone?). However, this does not explain the situation I mentioned above. In fact in the very same period million or so people emmigrated from Poland to Germany, Belgium and the US not because of industrial development in Imperial Russia, but because of lack of such development and because of general poverty of the population. This was especially true for the Russian and Austrian partitions. How so the situation of Belarus, where there were no industrial centres comparable to Łódź, was different? If the region with the least developed railroad net and the least developed industry was so blooming, then perhaps you meant a comparison with Middle Ages? Surely not with other countries of the time... Halibutt 11:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I seriously doubt if there were any industrial town in Belarus in 19th or the beginning century. As far as I know, Minsk was all wooden architecture and inhabitated mainly by Jewish population. What was that blooming or booming in the economy then ? The sources that I have at hand say that in a couple of years after 1863 the Russian government run out of the land confiscated from Poles. Russian Committee of Ministers found in 1875 that the "property of Russian owners was in disastrous conditions for the owners were unable to take care of their property themselves". It does not seem like "blooming economy" picture to me. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re:13

As the work on the article continues, I noticed that Ghirlandajo removed yet another part, claiming it was a slur, though without any explanation. It is to be noted that that part was perfectly sourced... Halibutt 15:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I did not see any explanation either. Ghirlandajo, why did you remove it instead of discussing if something bothered you there ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 18:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

And what was I telling you all the time? You know very well that your edits were provocing, as the article states very clearly there was no "Belarusian gentry" at all. Can you name a single Belarusian noble family? They were either Poles or Russians. And what is "Russia used every opportunity to enlarge the Russian possession of land in Belarus"? It is just like saying "Poland used every opportunity to enlarge the Russian possession of land in Mazovia". This is complete nonsense, because Belarus was part of Russia at the time. --Ghirlandajo 18:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

There were, according to the article by Anatol Zhytko, which I referred to. With all due respect, we are not here to do original research, but rely on scholarly works. Anatol Zhytko is a historian from Minsk with over 20 publications on the topic of development of Belarusian society. It may be that his works are biased by Lukashenko regime, but then, should we discard all the contemporary work by Belarusian authors ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You'd better ask your bud Molobo about that. He frantically deletes all links to Belarusian websites from this article. --Ghirlandajo 20:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, try to stay focused on topic. We are discussing your reverts here, not Molobo's. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 20:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Belarusian gentry? Hundreds of families, from Kościuszko's to Mickiewicz's and from Domeyko to Doweyko. They were as Belarusian in some instances as they were Polish or Lithuanian. If we are to seek Belarusians by modern standards then of course there were none back then. Just like there were no Poles nor Ukrainians. Halibutt 19:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I will later list Kościuszko as a Belarusian general and Mickiewicz as a Belarusian poet. What a pity these two and their contemporaries didn't know about their own ethnicity and identified themselves as Poles. Honestly, Halibutt, do you see any difference between Belarusians and Poles? Where the difference lies? --Ghirlandajo 20:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

To answer your second question, "the land in Russian possession" means here that it was owned by Russians and not Belarussians. According to the same article, the tsarist administration attempted to buy or otherwise acquire the ground from non-Russian owners. They formed a special "Society of Land Buyers" for this purpose with the capital of 5 million roubles for the sole purpose of transferring land ownership into Russian hands. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Wojsyl, just like Halibutt above, you seem to be 100% sure that Belarus is just another word for Lithuania and Poland. I start to regret having expelled Rydel from en.wiki. He would have surely explained to you where the difference lies. --Ghirlandajo 20:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

No I do not think that Belarus is another word for Lithuania or Poland. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 20:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Now that both of your questions were addressed, would you answer Halibutt's (and mine) concern: Why have you removed the passage without discussing it first ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I see you cannot answer that. Could you put it back into the article then, please ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 20:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Re:14

I see after the last edit we have it that "Piłsudski invaded Russia and Belarus" - where exactly were "Russia and Belarus" ? where were their borders ? Or governments ? Or armies ? As far as I know it, after several months German Army withdrew from the area to Lithuania and both the Red Army and the Polish Army started to move towards each other. The first conflict started when Bolshevik Army attacked (and after a couple of days captured) Vilnius. But it were not Poles but Russians who were the attackers then. So once again: When and where exactly did this alleged invasion of Belarus and Russia start ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps someone meant the end of Belarusian National Republic, invaded by the Reds after the Ober-Ost withdrew from Minsk... Halibutt 20:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Pan-Slavism as justification for Russification of other nations by Russian Empire

It's pleasant to see you in the same league with Molobo once again, joining Molobish hysterical fears of "19th-century pan-Slavist propaganda". It's a pity, however, that the great pan-Slavists - Safarik, Kostomarov - cannot respond to these slurs.

They don't have to:

http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/panslavism/panslavism.pdf During the Congress which had started at the end of May, Vladimir Ivanovich Lamansky pointed out that the invitation of the non-Russian Slays — which he called a great historic event —fitted nicely into the framework of the ethnographic exhibition, there by proving that Russia did not intend to deprive the various Slavic peoples of their different ethnographic characters, but magnanimously recognized the historical rights of the weaker Slavic brethren, thereby acquiring a strong position of moral leadership. In the same speech he demanded that Russian be the official language of all Slavs, and this proposal was greeted with thunderous applause by his Russian audience. The non-Russian guests gradually came to the conclusion that by PanSlavism their Russian hosts meant “Pan-Russianism,” which would include the general acceptance of the Russian language and the Orthodox faith by all other Slavs; in other words, a Russification of the Austro-Hungarian and Balkan Slavs, similar to that of the Poles and Ukrainians within the Russian borders.

PAN- SLAVISM by Sándor Kostya --Molobo 22:21, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

What other common language would you propose? Sorbian? And what is wrong with common language? Shandor K is very smart with putting accents and tearing out a quotation out of context. Of course, there were different panSlavists. Some of them sought spreading the domination of Russia. Some were truly bothered by annihilation of lesser Slavs. Are you aware that Czech language was extinct and was artificially restored just like Ivrit? And Belarusian language was destroyed not by Russkies My grandfather used to tell me funny stories how he was forced to learn by heart "lovil Janek do poludnia majonc pruzhnon hrapken" (He wrote it thus in forbidden Cyrillic letters to memorize). mikka (t) 22:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

My grandad was told by a local Polish ksiądz that only those who speak Polish would go to paradise, while those who speak Ukrainian are pledged to hell. What is remarkable, many peasants were so ignorant as to believe him. That's the Polish idea of Christianity and tolerance in a nutshell. --Ghirlandajo 09:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You should seperate your personel experience from historic facts and use historic scholary reference in writing articles in order to avoid bias, after all my grandad told me how Russian soldiers didn't knew what was toothpaste and thought it was candy, but I never would enter such information in Red Army article. Personal experience can be deceiving and shouldn't be used when editing articles. As to your allegations let me remind you the words

These gentlemen have started everywhere to say and write Slav instead of Russian, so that later they will again be able to say Russian instead of Slav.

Karel Havliček Borovský. 1846

--Molobo 14:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

My friend, this is a talk page. Of course I am not going to include experience of my granddad into the article. Nevertheless any theory is based on individual's experiences, summed up by experts. Of course it could have happened only in this particular village. But unfortunately it was rather notable development, described in Belarussian books, which you will happily dismiss as Soviet propaganda. mikka (t) 02:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"Some were truly bothered by annihilation of lesser Slavs." Didn't Russia occupy some of the countries of these "lesser Slavs" ? And what does lesser mean ? Is one nation belonging to the Slavic language group greater then the other in some unexplained way ? Didn't Russian Empire try to annihilated unique Polish, Belarussian, Ukrainian cultures itself by Russification ? http://www.taraskuzio.net/academic/history.pdf When nation building was encouraged, as it was in Austrian-ruled western Ukraine between the late eighteenth century and 1918, it led to the development of a central European, in contrast to pan eastern Slavic identity.71 Paul Magosci points out that ‘While Ukrainianism was being suppressed in the Russian Empire, all the fundamentals that make possible a viable national life—history, ideology, language, literature, cultural organisation, education, religion and politics—were being formally established in Austrian Galicia’.72 "Are you aware that Czech language was extinct " I am aware of this, however it was Czechs achievement that it was restored .Are you aware that Czech national leaders distanced themselfs soon from Pan-Slavism which they said was in fact Pan-Russianism ? Are you aware that Russian Empires policy was to make many other Slavic languages extinct using the very argument of Pan-Slavism ? In fact it didn't shy from cooperation with non-Slavic groups in persecuting those "slavic" nations that it couldnt' russify(for example with Bismarck against Poland). --Molobo 22:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Using dictatorship propaganda.

Please don't use information made by the current dictatorship of Belarus as reliable source. Thank you. --Molobo 15:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Please indicate which part of the official site you find unreliable. There is an English version, by the way. I see a disturbing pattern in your edits: references to Russian and Belarusian sites are consistently disqualified, while the links to Polish sites are encouraged. This is called POV, my dear friend. --Ghirlandajo 16:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

For the reasons why Russian and Belarussian official sites are discouraged as source of reliable information see: http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2004/countryratings/belarus.htm http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2004/countryratings/russia.htm

In short Belarus is considered a dictatorship while Russia is an autoritarian regime.Using official government pages of both countries makes the information subject to doubts about its reliability.It may very well be just propaganda made for the use of current regime. --Molobo 16:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

And freedom house is not a propaganda machine? -- Kuban kazak 15:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Apparently not, but you are free to add a Category:Propaganda organisations to Freedom House article and defend it :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Your POV is understandable, the limit of ones thinking. And yes Freedom House is propaganda, if one reads some of the rubbish they write there. -- Kuban kazak 17:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Please don't start any political bullshit. In exactly the same way one cannot believe to anything that USA says because all what it says is directed to make America more rich. And you cannot believe anything written in Poland because they ardently hate Russians for Katyn. You can make these arguments endlessly, for no good. mikka (t) 02:17, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Nonetheless it is a fact that most US sources can be trusted and Bielorussians cannot. Of course both governments (all governments) will use propaganda, but in US there is a lot of indepenended sources and organizations, while in Bielorussia there are very few independent non-undenground publishers of information. It doesn't mean that none of Bielorussian sources can be trusted, but that they are all inherently more suspicious and less trustworthy then US ones. And to a lesser degree it applies to Russian media, unfortunately, since Russian government is increasingly applying its pressure to them (granted, this argument can be made for all traditional media, in US as well).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Less trustworthy than US sources? At least Belarus does not use college students' PhDs in their reports to justify invading a sovereign country under a pretext of WMD and then finding none...same with Vietnam, same with IRAN Contra... realible sources... Good joke, I had a laugh. -- Kuban kazak 17:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

If you had a spattering of Russian, you could compare Russian media, which represent a full range of opinions on any given subject, and Polish media, which always sing the same Russophobic dirge. As for Belarus, please leave it to themselves to decide who they want to be their president. That's what democracy is all about. IMHO Lukashenka and Kaczynski are in the same league. --Ghirlandajo 16:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Let me ask you a question: Do you think that Belarusian media are independent from the government of Lukashenko ? Now ask yourself the same question about the media in Poland ad Russia. Do you see any difference ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 17:52, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I can fathom the difference between the media in all three countries, although I'm not in position to judge Belarusian media, as I haven't seen any of them. --Ghirlandajo 18:01, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Russian kindnappings

Since Ghir and KK seem to persist in deleting the following sourced fragment, I will quote here the references quoted by the sourced article I took the information from. My source is the article which appeared in recent (2004) Promemoria journal[7]. ALthough the article is not online, I have a copy of it (in Polish). Please note that at least some of the quoted sources are in Russian.

"Increasingly during this time Muscovite armies invaded the Commonwealth, kidnapping scores of its eastern inhabitants, among them hundreds of thousands of Belarusian peasants."

Bibliography:

English:

1. The peoples of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.Edited by G.Potasenko, Vilnius 2002

German:

1. Lehtonen U.L.:Die polnische provinzen Russlands unther Katharina II in den Jahren 1772-1782, Berlin 1907

Russian:

1. Solowjew S.M.:Istorija Rossii s driewniejszich wriemion,Moskwa 1960-1964
2. Nosow B.:Rossija i wosstanije Tadeusza Kosciuszko.Priedstawlenija o Polsze w prawjaszczich krugach Rossijskoj impierii w XVIII wiekie. [w:] Polacy i Rosjanie.Materialy z konferencji "Polska-Rosja.Rola polskich powstan narodowych w ksztaltowaniu wzajemnych wyobrazen".Warszawa 2000
3. Nosow B.:Wopros o granice i wydacze bieglych krestjan w russko-polskich otnoszenijach 1764-1766 gg. [w:] Studia Polonica.K 70 letju Wiktora Aleksandrowicza Choriewa,St.Petersburg 2002
4. Gryckiewicz W.:Massowaja migracija russkich w Litwu i Bielorussju w pierwoj polowinie XVIII wieka kak forma klassowoj borby protiw usilenija krepostniczeskago gnieta (po opublikowannym russkim istocznikam). [w:] Istorija XXIV is Letuviu tautos istorijos,Vilnius 1984
5. Na straze granic otieczestwa.Istorija pogranicznoj sluzby (XVIII-XX ww.),Moskwa 1998
6. Sahanowicz G.:Niewjadomaja wajna 1654-1667,Minsk 1995
7. Rjabinin J.:K voprosu o pobiegach russkich krestjan v predely Reczi Paspolitoj v konce XVIII vieka, Moskwa 1911
8. Siemiewskij W.I.:Krestjanie w carstwowanije impieratricy Ekateriny II,t.I,St.Petersburg 1881

Polish:

1. Iwaniec E.:Z dziejow staroobrzedowcow na ziemiach polskich XVII-XX wieku,Warszawa 1977
2. Serczyk W.:Hajdamacy, Krakow 1972
3. Wojcik Z.:Dzieje Rosji 1533-1801,Warszawa 1971
4. Deruga A.:Piotr Wielki a unici i unia koscielna 1700-1711,Wilno 1936
5. Korzon T.:Wewnetrzne dzieje Polski za Stanislawa Augusta 1764-1794,Warszawa 1917
6. Lubomirski S.:Pod wladza ksiecia Repnina.Ulamki pamietnikow i dziennikow historycznych (1764-1768),Warszawa 1971
7. Zabko-Potapowicz A.:Praca najemna i najemnik w rolnictwie Wielkiego Ksiestwa Litewskiego w wieku osiemnastym, Warszawa 1929
8. Makulski F.J.:Portret Moskwy etc.,Warszawa 1790
9. Dyaryusze sejmowe z wieku XVIII,t.I-II,Wyd.W.Konopczynski,Warszawa 1911-1912

Unknown

1. AR II 2505, 2662, 2768, 2791, 2811, 3190

Kuban Kazak: I have provided enough references to satisfy Wikipedia:Cite sources requirement. In addition to the article, I have presented above the list of additional references in Polish, English, German and Russian. If you persist on deleting sourced information, without providing any reliable countersources, your actions will be no different then from any vandal.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

One Polish magazine, thats the best you can do? I want hard evidence, not references, preferebly from Belarus not Poland. And don't accuse of me of vandalism, the least you can do is speak for yourself.-- Kuban kazak 17:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

One reference is enough. What you want is not what this site is about, go create your own wiki where you will be enforcing your own policies.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I have not even seen the article and you're telling me its enough. Why not actually go through those references and give me the exact detail where this occurs from. Otherwise I am not convinced. -- Kuban kazak 19:55, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I can email you the article in Polish. I am sorry it doesn't have an English version. I don't have time to go and look through primary sources cited in the article, and according to our policies (Wikipedia:Cite sources) this is not required. If you can find sources disputing this statement, we can rephare it that it is disputed, until then, my source trumps your belief.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:33, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Why not translate the article, but then yes rephrase. Accoriding to the magazine .... Moscovite armies ... etc. -- Kuban kazak 13:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

300 thousand Polish veterans

I'd be interested to learn more about these "300 thousand Polish veterans" who were settled in Western Belarus. Any sources anyone ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 08:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Check Kresowe osadnictwo wojskowe 1920-1945 by Janina Stobniak-Smogorzewska, Warsaw, RYTM, 2003, ISBN 8373990062. Halibutt 13:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

If you go to the trouble of adding references to talk, why not add them do main article?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, thanks for the reference. If you have access to it or have the knowledge, would you write a few words, maybe here, on the talk, on who settled them, when, and veterans of which war ? Did one have to be a veteran to be settled ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 17:38, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

One of the highest GNP per capita

What is the ground of claim that: Economically however, this allowed Belarus to bypass severe economic hardships and criseses that the former Soviet Union countries encountered. Even today the country has one of the highest GNP per capita of all the former USSR nations. ? It seems that the countries with the highest GNP per capita in ex-USSR are Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. While Belarus is their immediate neighbour, it is way behind. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 17:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

My mistake, I meant growth, here 2003 and 2004 figures:

• Armenia: 950|1120|(15.2%)
• Azerbaijan: 820|950|(13.7%)
• Belarus: 1590|2120|(25.0%)
• Estonia: 5380|7010|(23.3%)
• Georgia: 840|1040|(19.0%)
• Kazakhstan: 1810|2260|(19.9%)
• Kirgizstan: 340|400|(15%)
• Latvia: 4420|5460|(22.7%)
• Lithuania: 4540|5740|(20.9%)
• Moldova: 590|710|(16.9%)
• Russia: 2610|3410|(23.5%)
• Tajikistan: 210|280|(25.0%)
• Turkmenistan: 1090|1340|(18.7%)
• Ukraine: 970|1260|(23%)
• Uzbekistan: 420|460|(8.7%)

One also has to remember in Belarus there are no such things like segregation of people based on their nationality and hence citizenship and hence access to better jobs. And Belarus is not in foreign debt as well -- Kuban kazak 18:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I beg to differ here. From what I hear many Poles are discriminated in Belarus based on their ethnic identity. It's not a matter of getting a better or worse job, but they're simply loosing their jobs, being harassed by the police, administration etc. This is happening now, in 2005, so it does not belong to the article on History of Belarus, though. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources bitte schon. Because Poles born in Belarus are not denied citizenship if they hold no roots to pre-1940 residents of Belarus, Poles in Belarus are not forced to be taught 40% of their education in Belarussian. Polish veterans are not humiliated as criminals for what they fought in the war. Poles in Belarus do not see memorials to fascists being put up in front of their eyes. -- Kuban kazak 19:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

What is the source of the numbers quoted above? For the discrimination of Poles in Belarus, see Union of Poles in Belarus. Kazak - yes, they don't, what's your point? That they are not send to death camps does not mean they are not discriminated against.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Source. Now a Pole born in Belarus, regardless of what his family background is has the same potential in life as a Belarussian. A Russian born in Latvia from birth already is not allowed the same as a Latvian. It is called Apartheid, a minor form of Fascism. With Poles in Belarus...in absouloutely every city there are catholic churches, none of which have been closed or denied access to. Polish schools are fully allowed to run freely. Also I understand that the Republic of Poland finances these cultural institutions, but if it also begins to finance Political institutions I can understand why Belarus is concerned. Cosidering the relations between the two countries... I suppose if Lukashenko tried to finance the Belarussian separatist orgainisations in Belostok Warsaw will give a similar reaction. -- Kuban kazak 13:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the source. Now we can comibne our sources to write a more NPOV paragraph, stating 1) there was an economic crisis in Belarus in early 1990s 2) the situation has improved afterwards 3) World Bank does not expect the situation to continue improving until susbstantial pro-capitalism reforms are made. I don't know the Russian situation in Latvia, but I know - from this article (and The Economist is certianly a reputable source) that "Alexander Lukashenka, the country's erratic leader, has made the Poles into new targets for his intolerance of internal dissent and outside interference." and "closed a Polish-language newspaper and replaced the democratically elected leadership of a local Polish organisation, the Union of Poles in Belarus (UPB), with their own nominees". Wouldn't you call this discrimination? And if you have any proof that this is aimed not at the Poles but at the Polish Secret Services or some fifth column trying to destabilize Belarusian government, please provide such sources - but please, try to use sources other then official Belarus government (note I am not using any official Polish sources here).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't care what Freedom House and world bank states, the latter organisation is worse than Hitler's and Stalin's genocide combined, considering what they do to developing contries. Belarus will not suffer an economic crises because its economy is not based on capitalism, and it recieves quite generous investments from Russia. To me Belarus is as democratic as any other nation and I actually personally respect Lukashenko for the stability and security that is felt in Belarus. Not to improve? Have a visit to any city Grodno, Minsk, Vitebsk, Brest...As you drive in what do you see? Building works everywhere, Housing, transport, infrastructure. How can a country in a middle of an economic boom not improve? About Poles in Belarus, well I can understand his concern if the Union begins to promote separtism and thus destabilisation to the country he has every right to interfere, as does Poland with its minority organisations. -- Kuban kazak 16:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

de-Polonization or Russification

Kazak, you have removed Russification policy form the Russian Empire section. What is the difference between "de-Polonization" and "Russification" in this context ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 17:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

See above, about religion, and the article I quoted. De-Polinisation allowed the Belarus culture to emerge into a Belarus nation -- Kuban kazak 17:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

A good point. If Belarus hadn't been depolonized in due time, it would have been completely assimilated by the Poles, like their brothers Kashubians and Pomeranians have been. Their liberation by the Russians allowed Belarusians to preserve their national identity. --Ghirlandajo 18:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

No, but I asked seriously. The difference may be obvious to you, but to me, in historical context of Belarus in 19th and 20th centuries "de-Polonization" and "Russification" are just two different names of the same thing. If it de-Polonisationwas not achieved by Russification, then how would you explain that the host of Belarusians speak Russian language ? Or why were Belarusian schools banned in 19th century ? And how was Belarusian language promoted under Russian rule ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Belarussian schools banned, well actually it was after the reunification with Russia that Belarussians became aware of themselves not as Russians (under the Polish Rule) but as Belarussians and in 1904 (someone correct me) that the language was freely allowed to be used. What's this nonsense about banning? Most of the people speak Russian in Belarus is because a) Russian was the official language in the USSR. b)During WW2 most of the cities were destroyed and during rebuilding many came to settle there from outside Belarus c)In the rural areas Belarussian is perfectelly spoken, and finally although the country is bilinguial, e)and even though to urban population Russian is more preffered, nevertheless in ALL state schools Belarussian is taught along with Russian. f)Finally the languages are so similar that at times it is hard to destinguish which is which, especially in places like Vitebsk. -- Kuban kazak 20:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

It would help if both of you would provide sources, preferably in English, through others can be used if there is the lack of English sources. I don't know how Belarusan culture was treated during the Russian Empire and Soviet Era times, I do know it was rather discriminated against during the 1918-1939 times of the Second Polish Republic (source: Davies, God's playground) - just like today Poles are being discriminated in Belarusia (see Union of Poles in Belarus).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about Kazak but my primary source here is "Forming of the Belorussian nation" by Sokrat Janowicz, p. 242. Sokrat Janowicz is a prominent member of the Belarusian PEN Club. And yes, I agree that Belarusian culture and language was discriminated against in Poland in 1919 and later, until 1939. I hope my edits reflect this. Janowicz writes that immediately after WWI Poles acted as if Belarusian nation didn't exist. Similarly, after the 1930 elections and especially after Piłsudski's death the discrimination against Belarusian culture in Poland escalated. Nobody denies this. However I don't understand the belief that there was no Russification in Belarus before WWI and therefore I ask for explanations. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 20:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Have I not logically explained to you? When the Russians began to de-polinise the Ruthenians, they found that the people were in fact different from Great Russians, hence they allowed them to have their language and culture, and recognised them as a separate identity. Even Poles prior to that knew of no Belarussians and assumed that their Ruthenian population was identical to Russians. -- Kuban kazak 13:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Russians trying to ruin the article?

Oh, my god. I said a while ao that I'm no longer commentning on historical issues in WP, but I must break my silence now. As a person who studied Belarus history in Minsk high school for several years, being a native of that country, I'm appalled by the recent changes.

I propose to change the article back to the original form, before the first mouse click from misters Ghirlandajo and Kuban kazak from Russia. The current version of the article with their additions is a gross distortion of Belarus history. --rydel 21:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

While I agree that Ghir/KK edits are damaging, I don't think that it is necessary to make such a large revert. The article seems to have improved overall (more ilinks, for example), and there are editors like Wojsyl and Halibutt who seem to be doing a good job removing G/K POV. This, at least, is my POVed view of the current situation, I am sure they will soon reply to you (or me) stating their POV. Nonetheless, since you say you have an extensive knowledge of the Belarusian history, I'd really appreciate it if you would go back on your previous statement and contributed to this article. After all it is our rule that the more editors work on the article, the better and more NPOV it becomes.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Ditto. It's a shame that mostly Polish and Russian editors are contributing to (or warring over) the article. I can of course understand why there are not that many active Belorusian contributors. The more contributions of Belorusian editors would be precious. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 22:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

In fact I was also considering reverting the article at random and asking for it to be protected so that we could prepare a decent, NPOV version at the talk page. In fact I even started by raising issues above, though most of these still remain unanswered as of yet. Anyway, how about preparing a project page and writing the problematic parts (the entire article in fact) from the scratches? Much like we did some time ago with the article on Gdansk when the debate became too heated. What do you say? Halibutt 16:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Where is the language issue in the article??

I have some remarks. I don't see a language paragraph in this article hystory of Belarus. Where is it? You speak a lot here, but there exist nothing! So, my suggestion is to add a paragraph with 3-4 lines about belarussian language, about how related to russian is or not - things like that. An NPOV paragraph. User:Bonaparte

You mean History of Belarusian language ? Or history of languages in Belarus ? --Wojsyl ^(talk) 22:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Whatever he means, but remarks about language being banned when Belarus was part or Poland and of Imperial Russia are already in place. mikka (t) 00:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't recall Poland (or PLC) banning any language. I am pretty sure they never banned it 'completly'. Perhaps it was banned in schools during the Second Republic, but could you provide sources? I do recall that Polish gov did cut the funding completly, but I don't recall that they forbid students from using it in schools, like Russians did with Polish in the 19th century.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

"Cut funding completely" actually means "no more state schools in Belarussian language". No need for hair splitting. There were no Belarussian millionaires to fund private Belarussian schools. The same was in Russia: "We are not going to teach inorodcy languages in Russian schools". The then term "Inorodcy" means "alien-born", i.e., non-Russians, the word which is "politically correctly" translated today as "(ethnic) minorities". At least Tsar had a reason to clamp down hard: there were Polsih rebellions which he wanted to eradicate. There was nothing like that in, say Russian Turkestan. But why would Poles want suppress Belarussians? Are you aware of any Belarussian rokosz? mikka (t) 01:34, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Polish government, not Poles. I know nothing about attitueds of Poles towards Belorusians. I don't have the book here, but Davies describes cutting of funds to the minorities schools as a misguided attempt by Polish government to polonize them, done in the spirit of the raising nationalism that was prevailing in most European countries at that time. A shameful policy, without doubt - and stupid, in the country in which 1/3 of the population belonged to one minority or another. Davies concludes that if the the Second World War would not had happened, and the policies were kept in place, Kresy might have been a scene of a civil war. Ukrainians were already throwing bombs and assasinating Polish politicians, and it was all 'going to hell in a handbasket'. On the other hand, as far as funding cuts go, one has to remember that it was the time of the Great Depression and so some budget cuts had to be done anyway - but the fact that it was the minority schools who faced most of the cuts was purely politicaly motivated.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

where is the hystory of minorities ?????

I have some other remarks. There are a lot of minorities and very important like polish, russian, and others. But I don't see a minority paragraph in this article hystory of Belarus. Where is it? You speak a lot here, but there exist nothing! After all, they contributed to the policy of Belarus. So, my suggestion is to add a paragraph with 3-4 lines about minorities. An NPOV paragraph. User:Bonaparte

• something related to the history of polish minority
• something related to the history of russian minority
• something related to the history of ukrainian minority
• something related to the history of lithuanian minority

User:Bonaparte

Russification

Why people don't speak about Russification in article? User:Bonaparte

Beacause there was not any. -- Kuban kazak 13:08, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Because the article was butchered by imperial Russian POV pushers. There was a systematic long-term Russification of our lands. --rydel 13:19, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Give examples of Imperial Russian Russification. -- Kuban kazak 15:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Rydel, you have no right to speak for Belarus. Living somewhere near Krakow, you are as Belarusian as myself or mikka. --Ghirlandajo 14:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo: (1) "Living somewhere near Krakow". I'm not living somewhere near Krakow. (2) "You are as Belarusian as myself or mikka". So you define nationality by a place of temporary residence? I wonder how prepared you feel to contribute to WP, if you have such amazing gaps in your logic and understanding. (3) Russification of our lands was a bloody, massive, well thought-out, long-term effort. Please read Аляксандр Цьвікевіч, Западно-руссизм (Minsk, 1928). He provides very precise data on Russification policies and actions: letters from the Katherine the Great, statements and letters of many other Russian politicians, hundreds of concrete details from the late 18th until end of 19th century. --rydel 15:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

During the time of Cathrine the Great? Against Poles maybe, but not against Belarussians. Moreover it was Cathrine the Great who for example overruled the Sinod's suggestion of immediate transfer of Uniate property to Orthodoxy for example, and the unite church functioned in Russian Empire up until 1830s when the clergy of the Uniates self liqudated the Union of Brest and WILLFULLY submitted to the ROC. -- Kuban kazak 16:01, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

"Maybe" against Poles? Would you like to elaborate on this qualifier?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Well I'd say that the partition of Poland was rather directed against Poles, don't see how Belarussians suffered from this. Probably due to the fact that none held any respectible positions anywhere, they simply took the pawns role. Yet by the time of the Russian revolution it was clear who ruled the land - Belarussians, not Poles. I'd say 19th century was period of Belarussification. -- Kuban kazak 16:08, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

So you admit that you have no right to speak for Belarus as well, Ghir?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

My question was very good. I asked about "minorities". When I asked about that I was referring to see what impact could have such minority.

If suppose "the russian minority" is so small, why everybody in Belarus speaks russian?

Was it or not a russification process? user:Bonaparte

Well first of all Belarussian is not very different from Russian, especially to the accents heard around Smolensk and Bryansk. Second of all the tendencies of Russian speaking appeared only in post-war Belarus. When the Belarussian population decreased sufficiantly and to rebuild the destroyed cities many non-Belarussian residents moved in. Russian was the official language of the FSU, and every school in Belarus taught Russian along with Belarussian as they do today. Moreover go into a rural area and Belarussian will be heard in plenty. -- Kuban kazak 16:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

did the belarussan people have one of the worst form of oppression under the process of russification or not???

My question is: did the belarussan people have one of the worst form of oppression under the process of russification or not??? user:Bonaparte

No. -- Kuban kazak 15:55, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

The question is too general to be answered easily. Halibutt 16:04, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Some suffered (and were even killed), some others adapted and switched to Russian.--rydel 16:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources please. How come in the census of 1897In the following Guberniyans the Belarussian speakers accounted for absoloute majority: (roughly after 100 years of Russian rule) and called their language nor Russian but instead Belarussian:

All Empire	125640021	5885547	55667469	7931307
Guberniya	Total Population	Belarussian	Great Russian	Polish
Vilna	1591207	891903	78623	130054
Vitebsk	1489246	987020	198001	50377
Grodno	1603409	1141714	74143	161662
Minsk	2147621	1633091	83999	64617
Mogilev	1686764	1389782	58155	17526
Smolensk	1525279	100757	1397875	7314
Chernigov	2297854	151465	495963	3302
Forevisla guberniyas	9402253	29347	335337	6755503

!!!!!MAP1!!!!! !!!!!MAP2!!!!!

Conclusion: By the end of the 19th century on the territory gained in Polish partitions and in 1815 Russian language shows no dominating use. Therefore no evidence for Russifacations exist. Rydel спи спокойно. -- Kuban kazak 17:09, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

New Beginning

As I noted above, perhaps the best way would be to start the article again from the scratches and work on it together? So far we have basically two conflicting versions which evolve separately, so it's really hard to follow the changes.

So, how about preparing a list of issues that definitely should be mentioned in the final version of the article? I started such a list at Talk:History of Belarus/List of Issues and added a few ideas just to give you a better view on what I actually mean. Feel free to add ideas there if you find them important and worthy of finding their place in the article.

When that work is ready, we could expand the list into an article and simply discuss on how to mention certain phenomena in a better way should we encounter any problems - or even ask someone from the outside to do the work for us. What do you say? Halibutt 16:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I strongly disagree here. Despite heated controversies, the article has been improved dramatically over the previous days. It almost doubled in size and incorporated new sources reflecting contrary points of view. As I'm not going to participate in this farce anymore, I'm afraid that completely new version would be written by Polish editors only and therefore would reflect their own biased point of view. In this case, it's easier to revert to the prewar version that made no difference between Poles and Belarusians and reduced their history to three "glorious rebellions" "bloodily supressed" by Russians. It is the language and level of expertise that Rydel favours so much. Let's work to improve the existing version. --Ghirlandajo 17:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)