User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Attack coatrack we discussed

I noticed while you recognized that the Carrie Prejean attack page was a coatrack, you didn't accept straight off that it was an attack page. The "encyclopedia article" was created when Miss Prejean, then 21, said that marriage was a man-woman thing. I quote the gay/ same-sex marriage advocate mob[1] editors:

• "Hilton's words and Prejean's answer to the marriage question are the only reason Prejean has an article today."[2]
• "Prejean's fame beyond yet-another-state-pagaent-winner lies in the interactions with Hilton and the public reactions thereto."[3]

Per Wikipedia:BLP#Articles_about_people_notable_only_for_one_event, "If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them. Biographies in these cases can give undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view." -- Rico 18:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

It isn't helpful to insult people by calling them a 'mob'.

As to the content issue, I don't know the case well enough to have a strong opinion on whether this is a BLP1E situation, but I will say that there is at least very good reason to consider it, and my initial inclination would be to agree with you. As it currently stands, I re-iterate my opinion from before: the article is a fiasco and embarrassment. I'm dealing with several different issues at once these days, and so I'm not going to have time to personally get involved in this one, but I do hope I will be kept informed over time as to how it progresses.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• Hey Rico, since I am the first quote above, I will note that I not a mob member. Even mice don't scurry from me. I followed the Prejean "controversy" closely at first and have cleaned up vandal edits on wikipedia to her article (as I have also done to James O'Keefe more recently). I also know that state pageant winners often do not get to have articles on wikipedia because they get deleted (not by me, but I'm more of an inclusionist if articles are verifiable). There is no question that Prejean's notability stems from her answer given in the pageant and Perez's subsequent baiting to increase the controversy. Since then she has had a very rocky road, and the article necessarily reflects what has been reported, and we need to avoid being too gratuitous--Jimbo's comment is not surprising because unless you've followed the controversy closely, you would be surprised to know the overall tenor of her coverage was exceedingly negative. But she's way too famous now not to have an article, imho. Its always fair to debate whether and how certain things should be worded, but those who may not agree with you aren't necessarily some cabal of gay marriage aficianados.--Milowent (talk) 18:49, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Milowent, I did look into this a couple of weeks ago when it was first brought to my attention, and I think the article is quite unfair as it stands. (And I agree with you that turning this into a "pro gay marriage cabal" argument is not likely to be useful.)

I think the things that disturbs me most right now is the close of the article - the article closes with an obvious enemy of hers (remember, she sued them for terminating her contract) calling her a liar, delusional, etc. The "hook" for that quote is that she apparently performed quite poorly on Larry King, storming off the set or whatever - is that incident actually worth including in the article? (Maybe it is, I'm just raising the question.) Surely she's done dozens of other interviews that went perfectly well - but we don't talk about those, we only talk about her failed interview with King.

What do you think of the BLP1E question? It does seem pretty much right that she wouldn't have an article had Perez Hilton not behaved as he did. (Seriously, I think were it not for his behavior, no one in the press would have even noted her answer - it is, as many have noted - not a completely outrageous answer even if you don't agree with it... it's the same answer that is fairly standard for a lot of people. Had she said "I think gay people should burn in hell" then that would have likely been notable in and of itself. But this only became notable because of something that someone else did.) Even the subsequent lawsuit might not have generated any particular notice - people sue people all the time, it's not that big a deal in most cases.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this is just a BLP1E, but the article desperately needs to be rewritten. I edited it for awhile, but got fed up with partisans on either side of the issue and took it off my watchlist. Starting with the Miss USA 2009 controversy pretty much gets undue weight. I'm going to take a crack at it and see if I can get rid of some of the bias. AniMate 19:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

The lawsuit, that never was -- because it was withdrawn -- is in the article for two reasons:

(1) One of the causes of action was that the Miss California USA co-directors (both gay rights activists), said that Miss Prejean had had a boob job. She sued alleging disclosure of private facts. Without the lawsuit, that wasn't, it's hard to claim it's worthy of inclusion that a model and beauty pageant contestant had had a breast implant.

(2) TMZ, a decidedly unreliable source, published that the reason Prejean withdrew her lawsuit, was that there had been a "sex tape" that the defendants would make public if she continued with the suit. Without the lawsuit, that wasn't, they can't put it into the article that there was this "sex tape" that an anonymous person said existed.

All titillating claims about Miss Prejean's life, and everything derogatory, must be included in this sensationalistic attack page. The possibility of harm to Prejean has always been considered and, when that possibility has existed, the content has been included in the tabloid encyclopedia article. -- Rico 04:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Milowent wrote, "the article necessarily reflects what has been reported [...] the overall tenor of her coverage was exceedingly negative."

I have to disagree that:

(1) It is "necessary" that a Wikipedia article "reflects what has been reported."

(2) A biography of a living person should "necessarily reflect" an "exceedingly negative" "overall tenor" of coverage.

(1) BLP1E states, "Merely being in the news does not imply someone should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry."

(2) BLP Criticism and praise states, "Criticism [...] needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. [...] Look out for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be promoting a biased point of view," and there are a lot of motivated someones, give up. Wikipedia policies will prove to be not worth the media they're stored on.

This "encyclopedia article" has always been a smear file, and content was cherrypicked to use Wikipedia to establish that this college student was a s__t.

It has always been an attack page, a repository for all the dirt that was drudged up against her in gay/liberal media attacks, and it always will be.

What one editor wrote about one section applies to the entire attack page, and to Wikipedia: "I am not a fan of rightist 'Christian' Ms Carrie Prejean - I am rather quite the opposite," but the section/article "is all through biased and considers only Anti-Prejean statements, what makes this article sad and also make sometimes the state of wikipedia sad."[4] -- Rico 03:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if it was that you wrote, "I think Carrie is an idiot,"[5] or that you put in the article that "some reports have noted that teens have been prosecuted as sex offenders for sending such tapes,"[6] or that you substituted polling for a discussion[7] -- voting that it should be in the BLP that an openly gay gossip blogger called her a "dumb bitch." (You can't just write in the article that Miss Prejean is a "dumb bitch," but you can report that someone else said it, if enough Wikipedians want that?)

You argued, "'Prejean admitted that making the video of herself and sending it — an act that other teens have been prosecuted as sex offenders for doing'). I suppose that last one supports a mention of it in the article."[8] Luitgard thanked you for your "great objective research," and bought into your idea of "creat[ing] a Carrie Prejean Child Porn Sex Video article."[9]

So please excuse me if I assumed you were just another one of the dozens of editors and admins that have not been editing to create an encyclopedia article, but to create an attack coatrack of a living person.

And Milowent, I struck out the word mob before you wrote this.[10][11] -- Rico 05:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

When I wrote "mob", I only meant an overwhelming number of people -- that mobs you, with mobocracy (or "mob rule"). I wasn't thinking about an angry mob that goes after someone with pitchforks and torches, even though they have come after us many times -- with SLAPP suit-style abuses of process[12], Star Chamber activity[13] and WP:Harassment[14] -- with the predictable chilling effects.[15] Lumping the two editors I quoted, above, into that group was a mistake -- and not essential to my point.

I have already objectively proven the interest in homosexuality and/or same-sex marriage of the editors that wanted an attack page, here (skip down to the bullet points). It is not a stretch of the imagination to suggest, given the time of their arrival at the Carrie Prejean attack coatrack, that they were editing the article because Miss Prejean had stated that marriage was exclusively between a man and a woman. It's hard to apologize for stating the obvious, especially after I've proven it, but lumping individuals into this group may have been painting with overly broad strokes, and it was unnecessary. For that, I'm sorry.

Since Dictionary.com recognizes that one definition of a mob, is simply "any group or collection of persons or things," I hope we can focus on the (now masked) attack coatrack. -- Rico 04:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Jimbo- I personally think the Larry King coverage is too much (ETA: and i said so at the time, Talk:Carrie_Prejean/Archive_2#larry_king), though it was covered widely at the time. What you can see is that the California pageant people were really vicious in this public drama - it would likely be fairer to say both sides made contentious public statements about other side. The lawsuit also didn't get major coverage until the sex tape claim came out. As for the BLP1E issue, I can't imagine consensus would favor her deletion, and we can't ignore the massive coverage she has received. Its a "famous for being famous" dilemma, and we are reflecting what the media has made notable. Thus, for John Edwards we have a massive John Edwards extramarital affair article.--Milowent (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

This is becoming more and more of a problem that probably deserves some sort of RfC or other centralized discussion. Articles that should fail by BLP1E standards get legions of supporters at their AfDs because they cite "the massive coverage" out there. With the advent of the 24/7 news cycle and the tabloidish/sensationalist nature of even major media outlets these days, IMO the threshold for being "in the news" is far, far, far lower now than it was even 3-4 years ago. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I've removed much of the contentious material. Like Milowent, there was far too much on the Larry King interview. People give weird interviews all the time, so I removed it. I also condensed everything about the post-Miss USA into a couple of paragraphs. I think the worst part of the article was a sly attempt to say that Prejean could have been convicted for distributing child pornography for her tape if she was underage when it was taken. She wasn't, but the statement was still in there with multiple sources. AniMate 19:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Discussions, that were just between anti Carrie Prejean editors, took the form of: 'how can we include this new slag in the article.'[16] Justifications ranged from simple opinions to a predilection for disparagement (veiled, of course, in standard Wikipedia fashion and shrouded in Wikipedia-speak) -- but the direction was always the same (tarnish Miss Prejean's reputation).

When people like me tried to suggest following Wikipedia policies and guidelines, throngs of Most Interested Persons swamped us with arguments that were often ridiculously unpersuasive.[17] Arguing with people that had no interest in building consensus was like trying to reverse the direction of a swarm of locusts with one's bare hands.[18]

Naturally, we gave up, withdrew, and left the attack coatrack of a living person to those that were running Google News searches for "Carrie Prejean," and copying whatever dirt was published by yellow journalists into her BLP. InaMaka wrote, "You got your way. You and your associates jammed completely inappropriate comments into the article which violate NPOV and BLP."[19] Caden wrote, "I see no point. That hateful mob owns and controls that attack page. Personally, I feel the article should be deleted."[20]

Baseball Bugs, who didn't hide disdain for Miss Prejean,[21] brought up deleting the attack coatrack.[22]

AniMate, who once wrote, "I don't think anyone would confuse me with a Prejean fan,"[23] was the principal opponent.

Frederick Douglass stated, "Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

I suspect that the limits of what people will submit to, will be the exact amount of injustice and wrong that will be imposed upon this "encyclopedia article." And the endurance of editors that want Wikipedia's policies and guidelines complied with, will again prove to be far short of what would be necessary.

What's happened now, is that AniMate -- and who has "DOWN WITH H8TE!," in a big box at the top of his/her user page, with H8TE pointing to California Proposition 8 (2008) -- has deleted some of the most egregious content and added that she's engaged to marry a football player, and that she wrote a book. AniMate also split her answer on gay marriage and the resulting fallout, into two sections, and the article looks less like a coatrack now.

But Miss Prejean's not notable for having gotten engaged to a football player, nor for having written a book. Lots of people write books these days, that don't sell. It would not make sense to report on the fallout, without putting why it occurred. Lots of women get engaged to football players. The BLP1E's still primarily about Miss Prejean's answer and the resulting fallout, and there is another article for that, entitled, "Miss USA 2009 controversy," classified as "within the scope of ... WikiProject LGBT studies."[24] -- Rico 21:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Rico, "people like you" aren't the only ones who follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I dare say that most of, if not all, of the main principals in this discussion follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and endeavor to edit according to those precepts. The problem is that part of the difference is in interpretation and application of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. The discussion at the talk page should be a discussion of the differing interpretations and how article proposals fit with one or the other, and attempts to persuade editors and gain consensus. Unfortunately, what the discussion is and what it should be are two different things -- far too often at the talk page, the "discussion" was nothing but repetitions of "That's censorship!", "Hilton's evil!", "Prejean's evil!", "You're all pro/anti gay marriage, why should I listen to you?", and repeated postings of quotes from policy pages with any arguments, even pathetic ones, at all. (Heck, to a large extent, many talk pages look like that.) (And, yeah, I've been guilty of that too.) Can we, at least, please discuss the ARTICLE rather than the EDITORS? Maybe the paras in the Prejean article dealing with the controversy can be shortened given the existence of the "Controversy" article - but can we talk about it over on the talk page, instead of at ANI, the BLP noticeboard, and Jimbo's talk page? -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 21:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm dense, but I'm still trying to figure out how this is a BLP1E and what exactly Jimbo is supposed to do about it. Is the one event winning Miss California USA? Is it the controversial answer she gave in the Miss USA pageant? Is it the fact that she is one of the few women in the Miss USA organization that had the title taken away? Is it the book she wrote for Regnery Publishing that was endorsed by a number of high profile conservative commentators? So confusing. Even more confusing is why Rico has chosen to complain about this here. Is Jimbo supposed to use his special "Jimbo powers" to make the article disappear? If it is such an obvious BLP1E coatrack attack article, why not just nominate it for deletion? It's also quite confusing that Rico has now declared me not-neutral enough to edit the article because I have a banner showing my disdain for Prop 8, when in a post he linked to above, it shows him quoting me in support of his position. AniMate 05:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Why complain here???? Are you serious??? Rico's attempts to improve the article have been consistently removed and deleted. My attempts to improve the article have been removed and deleted. It is wrong for you to even question why he came here. Is there a Wikipedian rule that I am not aware of that states that no one should go to Jimbo's talk page with an important issue unless AniMate or ArgleBargleIV decide it is ok?? No there isn't. Arglebargle states above to to discuss the article and not the editors but you and bargle seem to think is it ok to discuss Rico. That is hypocritical. I have made a consistent argument from day one that as editors of Wikipedia we could get across Hilton's clear hatred of Prejean without having to quote him word for word, thus not repeating his hate speech of the phrase "db". I have stated over and over again on the talk page that if some blogger had called Michelle Obama or Hillary Clinton a "db" there is NO way that any Wikipedian editor would have allowed that to be repeated in the article. NOR should we stoop to the level of childish comments such as Hilton's. I have not reviewed the edit history so at this time I don't know if you (AniMate) or Bargle were editors who kept quoting the highly offensive and unnecessary "db" comment of Hilton, but I do know that I was repeatedly overturned each and every time I attempted to remove the exact wording but keep the general gist of Hilton's rant. Not only were my edits reverted immediately I had to read over and over again that my attempt were nothing by "censorship" which is also flat out wrong. I will complain here about that article because it is nothing more than a hit piece on a living person. It is joke now, but it was a worse joke when the "db" wording could not be removed. I believe that the ONLY reason that the "db" wording has not reappear BECAUSE Rico and I are still right here at Jimbo's talk page. As soon as this talk page discussion gets archived I believe the editors who feel the need to repeat Hilton's hatred will return and bring the article back to it POV and BLP violating state. And one last thing, I will bring whatever reasonable discussion of an article to Jimbo's page and I will NOT ask either AniMate or Bargle for permission because I do not have to have it.--InaMaka (talk) 18:20, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, since this is continuing here, I will respond here. Warning, a tl/dr block of text is ahead.

First, I prefer "Argle", if you don't mind. :-) (Although if you look in the history of my talk page for reverted revisions, I'm sure you'll find something both more "creative" and more worthy of Mr. Hilton.)

Second, neither Animate nor I have been talking about "rules". You, Rico, Animate, anybody have a perfect right to come to Talk:Jimbo Wales and present your case (unless Jimbo kicks us all off of here) -- and nowhere did I say you couldn't. NOWHERE. You don't have to ask me for permission for anything, and I wouldn't dream of either giving or denying permission. I just wonder why you're here instead of taking policy- and guideline-suggested actions such as a [WP:RFC|starting a Request for Comment]] or nominating the article for deletion. I don't know how you jumped from my questioning Rico's reasons to half of your rant above. It's far too common these days to assume immunity from questioning or criticism -- sorry, but freedom of speech (even Wikipedia's version) doesn't guarantee that. Reasonable responses to suggestions or questions as to why are usually of the forms "Here's why or why not" or "That's ridiculous", not "You're not MY boss!"

Third, earlier here, I presented some examples of suboptimal and disagreeable behavior, with the intent that I've seen it on BOTH sides of this debate, including in myself, but not specifying any editor in particular. My only specific discussion towards Rico was to ask him why. I haven't said anything about his editing style or his Wikipedia habits, nor have I accused him of trying to censor and shut down a discussion on Jimbo's talk page. BTW, when an editor throws around accusations of cabal-like behavior, shouldn't he or she be called on it? If you're going to call responding to personal attacks a personal attack in itself, you're effectively arguing for disarmament.

Fourth, I'm not going to discuss the "db" comment here -- there's a perfectly good, if underused, place for discussion already, except to note that I have moved to the position that the "db" quote probably doesn't need to be quoted.

If you and Rico are constantly being reverted, maybe it's because you don't have consensus for your edits? If you believe that there is a policy violation occurring that trumps consensus, there are roads to take that are likely to be more fruitful and more likely to give you the results you want than coming here -- although, as I said before, what you do is up to you, because I don't and won't give orders. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Rico, since you're spreading your answers all over the place here, I'm just going to respond down here. If you think the article should be deleted, why are you complaining here (and spending more of your time complaining about editors than discussing the article)? Why haven't you tried an AFD on the article? Jimbo isn't likely to wave his magic wand and make it go away on your command. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 05:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear ArglebargleIV: Your comments above do not in anyway focus on how to make the Prejean article better. As a matter of fact, all your comments above are just an attempt to dictate to Rico what he actions as an editor should be. That is not helpful. Reading your comments you give the impression that taking an issue to Jimbo is a waste of time. Since you have decided to use this forum as an opportunity to dictate actions to Rico instead of fixing the obviously seriously faulted Prejean article and if it is a waste of time, which I do not believe it is, then why aren't you writing on each and every comment made on Jimbo's site concerning each and every article that is brought to Jimbo for his attention. We both know the answer to that question. You believe the Prejean article to be a mastery of insight and NPOV balance. But you are wrong. The Prejean article has been coatrack for over a year. It is just a place to go to bash Prejean by people who obviously do not agree with her position on gay marriage. It is not a fair article. I agree with all of Rico's comments concerning the article and I have attempted to edit the article myself and there are editors who simply overturned edit after edit moving the article back to its BLP violating state. I'm going to express my opinion right here whether you like it or not. Your attempts to question Rico's motives is an example of how badly written the article is. I will comment here and and Rico will comment here and that is just the way that it is going to be. Why don't you focus on improving the article which is what Rico and I have attempted to do. We are attempting to tone down article make it less of a BLP violating coatrack that it is. You comments just seem to designed to shut us up. That doesn't seem to be a very good use of time.--InaMaka (talk) 18:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear Bargle: I reviewed the edit history of the Prejean article. An editor named TharsHammar kept placing the "db" quote in the article over and over again and he would state that the removal of the phrase "db" was '"censorship"'. You can see an example of that unhelpful editing here: Example of jamming "db" quote in article. At one point Hilton's use of the words "db" was re-stated four and five times in the article--which is clearly unencyclopedic and unnecessary, not to mention that it violates various goals and requirements of Wikipedia such as NPOV and BLP. You can see in the following edit that the hate-filled phrase of Hilton's "db" quote was in the article several times: Example of four uses of "db" by the anti-Prejean editors. Now, you, Mr. Bargle did believe incorrectly that jamming the "db" quote in the article was absolutely necessary. You can see an example of repeating Hilton's quote by ABargle here: Exmple of where Arglebargle demanded that Wikipedia quote Hilton's hate speech directly, which is clearly a violation of NPOV and BLP. Yes, the editors of the article were dead set on quoting Hilton's hate speech and I will give one more example of the overbearing nature of their desire to see of the phrase "db" in the article. Please review this particular edit by TharsHammar: Another example that we must either quote Hilton's hate speech word for word or be charged with censorship. This is the extent of the debate. It was a my way or the highway type of debate. Once again, there is NO WAY under God's green earth would Wikipedian editors (and admin's at that) allow a low life blogger like Hilton to call Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, etc. a "db" and then re-quote the low life blogger on Wikipedia. Now, I attempted to make a compromise and move the direct quote of Hilton's hate speech (which of course is completely inappropriate) to a footnote so that the exact wording would remain in article to stop the bogus screams of "censorship" from TharsHammar. Then, Mr. ArgleBargle reverted me and stated that moving the direct quote to the footnote was inappropriate. You can review Mr. ABargle unhelpful reversion of my compromise here: Example of Bargle jamming the hate-filled, inappropriate, NPOV and BLP violating quote back in the Carrie Prejean article. Mr. Bargle is upset that Rico and I are here on Jimbo's talk page commenting in his particular attempts to violate NPOV and BLP policies by jamming Hilton's hate-filled speech into the Carrie Prejean article. Now I see why you are questioning why we are here. You don't want your work to be reviewed by folks you can't push around. You know that if Rico and I just stay on the Carrie Prejean talk page then you can with the assistance of like minded editors and admins jam those NPOV and BLP edits right there into the article without much work. I pointed that ArgleBargle was edit warring here: Example of ABargle and TharsHammar engaging in edit wars. I attempted to put something in the article that was NOT a direct attack on Carrie Prejean and something that was notable. I added information about her guest hosting Fox and Friends and of course that was removed by the anti-Prejean editors. The anti-Prejean editors were NOT going to allow any positive information about Prejean in the article. You can review that unhelpful edit here: Example of anti-Prejean edit willfully removing positive info about Prejean but somehow it was not censorship. I do not believe in censorship so I put the Fox & Friends material back in the article and AniMate--who is upset that Rico and I are commenting here--reverted the Fox & Friends material and removed it, but AniMate did not seem to be worried about censorship issues at that point. You can review AniMate's inappropriate removal of positive, on point, notable information about Carrie Prejean here: Example of AniMate removing positive information about Prejean. The edit history goes on and on. The article needs to be cleaned up. And Bargle and AniMate have a direct conflict.--InaMaka (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggest does not equal dictate.

"I'm going to express my opinion right here whether you like it or not." Fine, I wouldn't stop you. I don't see what you're getting out of it, but go ahead.

Please cite where I questioned Rico's motives. (Note, there is a difference between asking for his motives and questioning his motives (an idiom). I don't care about his motives, I just don't think he's taking actions that will result in what he wants. And I can comment on that, and make suggestions, and you can't tell me not to! Nyah nyah to you! (See how childish that sounds?)

I do think taking things to Jimbo, unless they are truly large matters, is a waste of time. This isn't a slight on Jimbo by any means, I just think that he's got better things he'd rather do, and there are paths one could take that are more likely to give results.

I don't care about 99.99% of the articles or issues raised on Jimbo's page, nor should I. I'm not trying to clean up his talk page. The only reason I'm here at all (and it is a visit of mine that, without a very good reason, is going to end right after this post), is because an article I was warking on earlier was brought up here, and I wouldn't have known that a discussion has taken place here at all if it had nopt been mentioned at Prejean's talk page. (I hasn't watchlisted Jimbo's page until this came up, and I'm de-watchlisting it shortly.)

The Prejean article is not a "mastery of insight and NPOV balance" -- it still desperately needs work -- and I would prefer that you not ascribe such an over-the-top opinion to me. I haven't made any recent non-wikignome changes to it because I was waiting until AniMate finished his slicing and dicing on the article (and until I had an evening free to study it a bit) before possibly making changes. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 20:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I wrote the above in between compiles and test runs -- and yet another block by InaMaka addressed to me has appeared. To respond quickly, I thought back then the quote should be used exactly instead of paraphrased, and although I still don't think the quote is a NPOV or BLP violation, I've come to the conclusion that editorially, it isn't needed. If there was a national furor over a blogger calling Ms. Obama, Ms. Clinton, Ms. Pelosi, Ms. Bachmann, or Ms. Palin a "db", and I thought that the text of the quote was needed rather than a paraphrase, I would want it included (and, btw, why just include liberals in your rant at me, unless you're trying to insinuate something about my politics?). Furthermore, I am not upset about anything here (nor is there any indication of that), so save the over-the-top rhetoric for somebody else. Hilton's calling Prejean a "db" was distasteful, but to call it "hate speech" diminishes the phrase when needed to describe real hate speech. If you think that you need to put in positive things in and article to make it NPOV (and similarly for those who think that negative things must be added to any article to provide balance and NPOV), then you misunderstand NPOV. NPOV doesn't mean balanced positive/negative -- sometimes there are more positive notable things than negative, and vice versa. Note the word "notable" -- if something isn't sufficently notable, putting it in just for balance is a bad editorial decision and is against NPOV itself.

This is important -- please explain what you mean by "Bargle and AniMate have a direct conflict."

If you have anything further you wish for me to respond to, you can try my talk page or Talk:Carrie Prejean -- unless Jimbo asks me a question directly, I won't be responding further here, and I'm already deeply regretful that I've been here as long as I have.

I will agree with you in part though -- I'm coming to see that arguing with you here is a waste of time. Unless something changes, g'bye. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 20:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand exactly where you are coming from. On the Carrie Prejean talk page and in the Carrie Prejean edit summary comments it is clear that you have to have the "db" comments quoted word for word. The use of the quote word for word is inappropriate and it violates NPOV and BLP, as I have been stating for about one year. It is also what Rico has been saying. Why is it ok for Rico and I to comment on the Prejean talk page, but not here? The answer is simple. We get over-run over there by editors and admins who believe wrongly that it is ok for Wikipedia to quote word for word from the critics of living people. Hilton's speech is hate speech. It is offensive and as you say "over-the-top." It is NOT appropriate for an encyclopedia. We can simply point out the essence of Hilton's hatred and move on. Wikipedia does NOT have to stoop to the level of a distasteful, hate-filled blogger--who is looking to libel Ms. Prejean. So Hilton hates Prejean. We get it. We don't need to quote him word for word and as I pointed out above and you chose to ignore, the article quoted the phrase, at one point in time, "db" five times. That is the epitome of a coatrack. Now, the anti-Prejean editors, which you were part of at that time, felt the need to railroad the two or three editors that were attempting to enforce the BLP and NPOV rules. It was and has been a horrible article dedicated to bringing up everything negative about Ms. Prejean--rumours, lies, falsehoods and everything else. Wikipedia is supposed to treat living people with intelligence and respect. Simply removing the phrase "db" from the article was NOT censorship and Rico and I have been accused of censorship over and over again by the editors who only seemed intent on looking over for the viewpoint of Hilton. Is Hilton the only person in the world who has an opinion on Carrie Prejean? No. Why do Hilton's comments about Prejean dominate the article? I suggest that you don't understand NPOV. Carrie Prejean is a young woman who is many things and it is insulting and not encyclopedic to argue that the whole life history of Ms. Prejean has to be summed up according to the viewpoint of Hilton. That is like having President Obama's story presented on Wikipedia from the viewpoint of Hugo Chávez or President Bush's story presented from the viewpoint of Osama bin Laden. Hilton obviously do not like Prejean and his comments have dominated the article for about a year and each and every time that Rico or I have attempted to edit the comments to tone them down (I tried the words "derogatory" "prejorative") or move them (I attempted to the exact quote--even though I did not agree upon its use at all--to the footnote section) you and the other anti-Prejean editors reverted us--in a highly argumentative and rude manner I might add. Only now, while we are on Jimbo's talk page are we getting anywhere with a reasonable compromises to tone the language and bring in in compliance with NPOV and BLP--hopefully your newfound desire to compromise will continue long after we leave Jimbo's talk page. However, I did notice that while we were having this discussion there has been an anon editor who has attempted to re-instate the inappropriate "db" language.--InaMaka (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) this discussion seems to reflect a content dispute, and the statements, frankly, have gotten rather ridiculous. First of all, there isn't any reasonable dispute as to Prejean's notability. Even without the scandal she's notable for her beauty pageant award. But she's more notable for a series of enduring public scandals. Next, for a gossip blogger to call someone a "dumb bitch" is not hate speech as such, but it is crude, misogynistic, and arguably sexist. It isn't POV to report that Perez Hilton said it because Wikipedia is not endorsing the epithet. He had every reason to be upset at Prejean, and as subsequent events unfolded, Prejean turned out to be a problematic figure whose notability is largely related to her embarrassing public deeds - outlandish proclamations, becoming a spokesperson for intolerant groups, threatened lawsuits, claiming things that were clearly untrue, and so on. To call it "libel" to repeat this stuff is nonsense. If Wikipedia is going to report on what happened, this is what happened. Indeed, Wikipedia is not censored, so reporting that he called her a db is the way to do it, not beating around the bush to say he used an epithet. However, Hilton's outburst isn't terribly relevant or noteworthy with respect to Prejean's biography, so the problem (you can call it a BLP issue if you want) isn't the wording, but rather including this in the first place. Anyway, that is all a content issue, something well within the community's ability to deal with. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

No. That is simply not true. The article grew and grew with every piece of negative information that could be found by the anti-Prejean editors--to the point that "db" was quoted five times, anti-Prejean editors were calling Prejean a "child pornographer", etc. Dear Wikidemon: please do not re-write history. There was a point where the "db" wording was inserted into the article in FIVE different places. If you want to ignore that fact that is your choice but it does represent the situation accurately. There was one editor that wanted call her a "child pornographer". Also, once again, I will repeat that the biographies of living people ("BLP") need to be treated in a manner that Wikipedia is not libeling a living person and placing Wikipedia at legal risk. The anti-Prejean editors did not take BLP into consideration when they jammed the phrase "db" in the article in FIVE different places. Oh, by the way, "db" phrase is hate speech whether you want to acknowledge it or not. (What do you call it? "Love Speech"? Of course not.) There is no way that Wikipedia editors would repeat the comments of a blogger that called Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Dole, Angelina Jolie, Gloria Steinem, Margaret Atwood, Angela Merkel, or Jane Goodall (and the list is endless) a "db". Basically, your argument is that since Ms. Prejean is not a woman of substance equal to the women mentioned above then Wikipedia editors can write an encyclopedia article about her that uses the "db" phrase five times because, well, Hilton said it. Basically you are arguing that since Prejean has engaged in less than admirable behaviour you and the other anti-Prejean editors can just pile on the article as many quotes from Hilton (someone who hates Prejean) and you can repeat the "db" phrase as many times as you want because it happened. Once again, it is unfair to write a biography about one person (Prejean) that is dominated by opinion of someone (Hilton) who obviously hates that person. A Wikipedia article that is used to repeat negative information about one person is called a coatrack and if that person is living then by definition it violates BLP. Let's say that there is 400 anti-Prejean editors and there are only two editors (myself and Rico) that are focused on the BLP issue. No, let's say that there are 4,000, no, 40,000 anti-Prejean editors working on the article and there is just one editor focused on BLP. Your argument is that the sheer number of editors wanting to jam the article with the "db" phrase and long repeats of Hilton's rant makes it perfectly fine to ignore BLP because so many editors want to quote Hilton and his hate speech extensively. Dear Wikidemon: I believe that Alexis de Tocqueville outlined a this delicate balance between the rights of the majority and the rights of the minority in free society many, many years ago. To quote the Wikipedia Tocqueville article: Tocqueville wrote of "Political Consequences of the Social State of the Anglo-Americans" by saying "But one also finds in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to want to bring the strong down to their level, and which reduces men to preferring equality in servitude to inequality in freedom" in Volumes One, Part I, Chapter 3. He further comments on equality by saying "Furthermore, when citizens are all almost equal, it becomes difficult for them to defend their independence against the aggressions of power. As none of them is strong enough to fight alone with advantage, the only guarantee of liberty is for everyone to combine forces. But such a combination is not always in evidence.". To sum up, just because a large number of Wikipedia editors, and it does not matter if that large number is three or 300,000, want to jam a biography of a living person with negative, libelous material does not trump the rules of BLP.--InaMaka (talk) 15:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Quoting Tocqueville in defense of Carrie Prejean? Wow. Yes this article grew as every piece of negative information came out about Prejean, because almost everything that came out was negative. It was a bloodbath outside Wikipedia. Some editors exercised less restraint that I would have preferred.--Milowent (talk) 15:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

May I draw your attention to....

Incidents like this are a great reason for ARBCOM process overhaul. I think that it is funny that you ask for a review on Brews Ohare and while a step forward to progress is made, it makes two steps back. Part of the reason that Brews has this appeal is because of advocacy, not perfect advocacy but people raising a clamor saying there is a problem here. Now with this motion, Arbcom not only admits to a problem but then promptly desysops a admin, you order a review of Brews case and they try to take away his supporters. They say this is for the "good" of Brews. Brews has never been their concern, this is merely a political ploy to make people think their process is not in error. My case is in the point that if this was a case that could be solved easily and wasn't controversial it would be done. The fact that there is still support within the community for both lifting and expanding current sanctions. How do you get a consensus? Make sure the people who disagree can't be there, under threat of blocks. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 01:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I've fixed that link for you. --Tango (talk) 12:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Every time Brews is discussed somewhere, his fan club shows up to try to re-litigate the speed of light arbitration decision, destroying any chance he has of getting a fair hearing. Banning these guys from commenting on Brews strikes me as the best thing that could happen. --Carnildo (talk) 22:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes it would indeed make sense, get a perfect consesus by removing those who disagree. What a great concept. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 05:09, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Carnildo: You repeat the continually repeated statement about "relitigating the SoL debate". Actually, though, this has not happened. What is argued about is the basis for various blocks, for example, which are about the Tznkai namespace restrictions, and why these restrictions should be removed. And the desysopping of Trusilver because he thought blocks based upon pretext were wrong. These events are not SoL matters. They are additional actions based upon namespace restrictions tacked on by Tznkai. It is these administrative actions all post SoL that have been discussed, despite what you might surmise by taking the clamor of admins for the unvarnished facts. Brews ohare (talk) 09:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Since I'm one alleged member of this so-called "fan club", let me give my opinion here before ArbCom passes the restriction barring me from doing so. An important thing to note is that the only thing that led me to "defend Brews" was my opinion that the topic ban was too wide and that this would likely lead to problems, if Brews decided to stay active on Wikipedia. It had nothing to do with me supporting Brews' position in the actual dispute. In fact I was and still am in disagreement with him in the actual dispute, both as far as the physics content of the dispute is concerned and also about how to control discussions that go on for too long.

Now, despite my strong disagreements with Brews, I was very happy that he decided to stay. My attitude was that Brews can do a lot in other areas like classical mechanics, electrical engineering etc. when the topic ban expires. Brews, as a retired professor, has both the expertise and the time to make certain indepth contributions. Usually, the more of an expert you are, the less time you will have for Wikipedia. Brews being a rare exception to this rule, is thus a valuable asset for Wikipedia.

This is why I supported Brews when he wrote his essay, contributed to my essay, and made some suggestions on policy talk pages. When others objected to those efforts, I defended Brews on the basis of an "as long as no harm is done let's not make a big deal about it" attitude. Over time, what happened was that the difference of opinion about how to deal with Brews became more of a conflict between the two sides and had little to do with Brews himself. The root of that dispute is the very familiar clash between fundamentalism and pragmatism.

Now, the ArbCom motion under discussion now is actually quite pragmatic. The restrictions against Brews will be lifted in 90 days because the way things have been going so far was not good. The proposed restriction against me, however, is something I strongly disagree with, but I can live with this (practical problems I see with this are address pragmatically by me on the ArbCom page). As far as I'm concerned, what I argued for in the Brews case is what ArbCom now has decided to do: Brews will soon be back productively editing physics and engineering articles. Count Iblis (talk) 15:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Carnildo, It's not quite as you have described. There has been a series of events going back to February 2010, beginning with an appeal to have Brews ohare's sanctions lifted. It looks now as though ARBCOM have finally got the message, and that Brews's sanctions will be reduced by four months. See here [25]. Any advocacy in his favour has obviously been successful. The damage to Brews has been done by those editors who have been advocating adversely against Brews, yet they are not about to be sanctioned, whereas those who have been going to great lengths to point out all the injustices that have been done against Brews are being labelled as 'disruptive' and are now about to be sanctioned for their efforts. This is a rather strange situation. It's probably quite unique. There seems to be some strange revisionist idea circulating in which those who helped Brews with his appeal were actually damaging his case, whereas the evidence points to the complete opposite. David Tombe (talk) 02:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

If only Brews page had a picture of a vulva it would gather a lot more public action. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The Brews O'hare Cult Looks Fun Where Can I join? Weaponbb7 (talk) 14:03, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Trust me it's not fun in the slightest. It's actually quite frustrating. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Sidney Crosby

I was reading the Sidney Crosby bio. It reads in one part below 2008-2009 "At 21 years, 10 months, and 5 days, Crosby became the youngest NHL captain to hoist the Cup.[6] (The youngest captain to lead his team to the Stanley Cup in the history of the trophy is Mike Grant of the 1895 Montreal Victorias, who was 21 years and 2 months at the time".)Did they not hoist it? In 2007-2008 Crosby was captain from october 5 of 2007. The Pens went to the cup final in 2007- 2008. His age by my math would have be Younger by a year. Making him the youngest player ever to lead his team to the cup? Did grant win the cup? Teemartin24 (talk) 10:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The article's talk page is --> this way. – ukexpat (talk) 14:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia giving incorrect medical information - Should health related articles be held to higher standards like BLP

I think that is quite dangerous, given Wiki's popularity. Please see: Talk:HIV#HIV_Risk_Table Phoenix of9 05:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

There's a talk page discussion happening on this issue, and some other editors seem to disagree with you and your argument. That's not really a good reason to come over to Jimbo's talk page, rather you should continue to discuss with the other editors. It's very unlikely that Jimbo will weigh in on this. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I think this is different than regular content disputes. That is why Jimbo might be interested. Accuracy of health related articles should be more important than accuracy of tv show episodes (an eg). Phoenix of9 07:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

There are a lot of health articles with a lot of disputes about accuracy. Jimbo is not a doctor (I don't think, it would be weird if he'd kept that a secret) or expert on these matters and is likely less qualified to address these issues than those discussing the matter on the talk page. You claim there is inaccuracy, others seem to disagree with you. If you want to get additional opinions, you might try setting up a request for comment. That should bring in some interested editors and will do you more good than bugging Jimbo about it. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:39, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

This speculation of ours about what Jimbo might think or not is getting a bit silly but I'll respond. He is not a doctor but he might appreciate that incorrect medical information might be dangerous in wikipedia, given that wikipedia is very popular and it is open to minors. This is not only about the article in question (HIV). Its about all healthy related articles. We have higher standards for BLP articles. Why not health related articles? Phoenix of9 07:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

You believe that the information is incorrect, others disagree with you. Personally I have no idea, and I doubt Jimbo will either. You are in a dispute about content, it may be important content, but you are in a content disagreement. Obviously you are convinced that you are right, but others apparently think you are wrong. Jimbo is not going to jump in and arbitrate the dispute for you or say, "yes, Phoenix is right" so that things get fixed your way, and he certainly is not going to make some sort of grand statement about all health related articles. Really, start a request for comment. Maybe you'll get consensus for your viewpoint. I strongly, strongly suggest you drop this matter now, at least here. Note that I'm not trying to make your concerns go away, I'm trying to direct them in the appropriate direction, which is not this talk page. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 08:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

WP:BLP articles are held to higher standards, why not health related articles?. That is my point. You dont understand it obviously so please stop giving advice to me. Phoenix of9 08:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

On that analogy why not law related articles too? Or furry fandom articles? Where do you draw the line?--ukexpat (talk) 14:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The fallacy in the question results from the use of the word "higher" – higher than what? We should be striving to raise the standard of all Wikipedia articles, and medically-related articles are no exception. Raising a standard requires effort from many contributors and we are fortunate that BLP attracts sufficient input to allow us to set extra criteria for the content. To try to prioritise improvements from the point of view of consequences of misuse of information is to look at it from the wrong end. Volunteer contributors will each make their own decisions about where they contribute, and the only way to raise the standard of articles is to get people interested in them. In fact, medically-related articles already benefit from the remarkably active WikiProject Medicine and you have already raised your issues at the Doctors' Mess. I would also remind you of the very high standard of sourcing required for medical articles, as outlined in WP:MEDRS, and the additional criteria for content and style as documented at WP:MOSMED. That these exist is already proof of the willingness of Wikipedians to strive to improve our coverage of medicine. I would urge you to make use of our normal processes of consensus building in the AIDS article – there are plenty of editors willing to work on that with you. --RexxS (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Travel related articles - people could get lost! Let's not forget articles about other dangerous things like heavy machinery, weaponry, large animals, sports, aviation, mining, roofing, and carpentry. Wikidemon (talk) 17:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah-huh. Incorrect information about risks of HIV transmission (when researchers sound alarm about HIV complacency [26]) is comparable to large animals and carpentry. Very smart comparison there...

RexxS, we can ignore 3RR in BLP articles if there is an inaccuracy. Maybe we can have the same thing for health related articles. Phoenix of9 19:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

From WP:3RR: "What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption." If others are disputing about what is accurate, you're ignoring 3RR at your peril. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

From WP:BLP:

“ Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material

See also: Wikipedia:Libel

Remove any contentious material that is unsourced or poorly sourced; that is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Wikipedia:No original research); or that relies on self-published sources (unless written by the subject of the BLP; see below) or sources that otherwise fail to comply with Wikipedia:Verifiability.

The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals.

”

Phoenix of9 20:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

You seem to want to ignore 3RR so you can "correct" other editors' "mistakes". Unless you're dealing with obvious vandals, I don't think that's going to fly. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

All of us would be better off if we stick to 1RR – if something is wrong with an article, BLP or medical, you can find lots of other people at the WikiProjects who are willing to help you combat obvious vandalism and libel. WP:AIV and WP:BLP/N can deal with more contentious cases. There's really no need to get anywhere near 3R other than when combating a persistent vandal, and WP:RBI is the best solution for that. --RexxS (talk) 21:51, 25 March 2010 (UTC)