Talk:Assassination

Messing with the page

some one has been editing the page inappropriately with "your mum" added in under further motivations 7 lines down and 2 words and under that lines it has been edited with "your really fat mother --Cladors (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Merge

Extrajudicial Executions and Assasinations should be merged here. Have you ever seen a legal assassination? "Extrajudicial assassination" is a pleonasm. I don't think the merge will cause any difficulties (beside, it really is a stub). Tazmaniacs 20:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. MadMaxDog 20:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Definitional issue

The article starts out with "Assassination is the murder of a political figure or other important individual". That's fine. The list of assassins in the table shows people like Mehmet Ali Agca, who failed in his attempt. If he had failed in an attempt to murder Joe Bloggs the non-entity, he would not be called a murderer, simply because no murder occurred. Yet if he tries to assassinate the Pope, and fails, he's still called an assassin. This seems out of kilter with the opening sentence. Not sure how we can resolve this. Any ideas? JackofOz 00:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He would be called an 'attempted murderer', and might still be a viable example for the murder article. What you really have seems a problem with the name of the table (which I renamed in the meantime to change the focus, BTW). Is it really necessary to make a mouthful of it and call it the 'Notable assassinations and attempted assassinations' subsection? I think not, though you are certainly technically correct. MadMaxDog 08:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to make this harder than it needs to be. Simply put, Agca failed in his attempt to become an assassin. Does he really belong here at all? I have less of an issue with the title of the table than some of its contents. Maybe we can have a separate section listing some famous failed assassination attempts. It still troubles me as it stands now. JackofOz 04:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

On brief reflection, what I think should happen is this: Have 2 tables, Notable Assassinations, and Notable Failed Assassination Attempts. Then we could remove the right-hand Comments column of the existing table. Those that succeeded would belong to the first table, and those that failed would belong to the second table. Any comments in the existing Comments column that are other than "succeeded" or "failed" could become footnotes to the relevant table. If you agree, I'm happy to do the work required. JackofOz 04:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with you. I'll think about a name change again, but I find that splitting the table is pointless at this stage (and maybe at any stage, for it is not to be exhaustive, but only to list some notable cases for example reasons - therefore, it is doubtful whether two lists would improve the article, even if they are both good quality).

There is no article for attempted assassination, nor should there be. A failed assassination (of the level as cited for the Pope for example) is close enough to a real one to deserve dealing in the same context. MadMaxDog 07:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You make good sense, MMD. I'll think on this some more. Anyway, thanks for tweaking the title of the table. That's a very good compromise, at least for now. JackofOz 07:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I realise this is a thorny issue, and this article is actually better than most when it comes to consstancy, but the article says that politics has to be a prime motivation, but then describeed the killing by Mossad or Palestinian guerillas as assasination. I make no comment on the morals of this, but surely taking out foot-soldiers is tactical not political? Personally I think this is because the definition is too narrow, rather than the mossad reference being incorrect. Epeeist smudge 16:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The Israelis also consider it "sending a message", and whenever they can, they target major figures (though when those can't be found, they will go for lower level people - for, again, purely political reasons: they don't want to be seen doing nothing). So I think no change is necessary - but you can surely have a go at changing the definition, and we can then see if that takes care of your point without widening it too much. MadMaxDog 07:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Myself, I have a problem with the shooting-down of Adm. Yamamoto -- an enemy soldier -- during wartime and actually in the theatre of war, being classed as an "assassination." How was that military action essentially different from any other? --Michael K. Smith 20:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand the ambiguity you refer to. Also it clashes a bit with the definition provided above. However, it is a) in the history section of the article (which does not have to follow the definition guideline put forth as strictly) and b), it is generally considered 'unsporting', for want of a better word, to go after specific people during a war. Which is a bit weird, morally (surely the LEADERS of a war are valid targets, not just the 'peons'?), but probably derived from the honour codexes that have developed during the ages. MadMaxDog 09:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Terminology

I see a problem with terminology used in the table on Notable Assassinations & Attempts. Currently they are listed as either "Failed" or "Successful". This immediately struck me as biased (reflecting the perspective of the assassin). I decided to change the terms:

"Failed" >changed to> "Attempt failed"
"Successful" >changed to> "Leader killed"

My change was immediately reverted, with the comment that I was using too much "political correctness". This seemed an odd reason for reverting since I don't consider myself to be a big PC'er. But at the time I did not think of a solid rebuttal for asserting the change. ...then a few days ago it struck me that the reason why the old terms were inappropriate was that it violated the NPOV policy. I re-implemented the change, citing the solid justification. Once again, this change got immediately reverted (although it took more than 9 hrs this time instead of 8 minutes - heh). The second reversion was presented with the rationale that "...'successful' is an adjective referring to an action, NOT a moral judgement". Here are my thoughts on that: I agree that 'success' is a word that refers to the action with no moral judgement. The problem is that it is a biased descriptor of that action. Put yourself in the shoes of a President's Secret Service agent. Can you imagine seeing your President die after taking a bullet and then calling the event "successful"? If not, then this is an indication that NPOV is not being upheld.

I will refrain from re-applying the change to give some time to see if anyone can present a solid argument that "successful" does indeed fit with the NPOV policy, or if it is in some other way a more appropriate term than "leader killed". ~ ChrisnHouston 22:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

First off, I should have maybe avoided the words politically correct. As for the 'immediate revert', well, I do watchlist obsessively... Anyway, I still hold the opinion that using "successful", even with your comment explaining the view from the perspective of a bodyguard etc..., is not a violation of NPOV. Neutral point of view is concerned with an unbiased view - if you yourself agree that there is no moral judgment involved, why should it then be a problem?

We would not change a (well-referenced) Wikipedia statement saying " X-land troops succeeded in crushing all remaining Y-land military units in the opening weeks of the Second Great Whatever War", even though it would certainly not be considered a very "successful" event to a Y-land citizen. Why should we act otherwise here?

I am mostly concerned with replacing a simple, directly understandable word like "successful" or "failed" with a more complicated, and not as generally applicable construction. MadMaxDog 10:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I see NPOV and morality as distinctly different issues. A comment can have absolutely nothing to do with morality, yet be infused with bias. Example: "The rower succeeded in winning the silver medal." If the goal was winning gold, then being awarded silver can be seen as a failure. A friend of mine got silver in the 84 Olympics, and to this day he considers it a failure. That is his point of view. My point of view is that his accomplishment was a success. Polar opposites, yet both valid.

This is why words like "success" and "failure" must be used judiciously. The words are infused with a particular criteria that can be TOTALLY DIFFERENT from one user to the next. The author of an article may be totally oblivious that the values of major factions (perhaps even the majority) are not getting communicated. How many American Republicans would agree that the result of Ronald Reagan's shooting was a "failure"? How many Catholics worldwide would view the outcome of John Paul II's shooting a "failure"? I'd guess none, if not a very slim minority.

Now I'll address your land troops example... I would not object given the wording you used because it is clear that "troops succeeded in crushing" is clear that "succeeded" fits with the goal of "troops". Now if the Assassination article would state something like, "shooter succeeded in killing", then I would not object there either (for the same reason). Likewise, I would be fine with a statement like, "Secret Service succeeded in foiling". In all of these examples, it is clear that "succeeded" represents the goal of the subject in the statement. The objection arises because the table in question does not have a distinct subject to make it clear who's values are being represented in the word "success/failure". The reason for a change to "attempt failed" is that it makes it clear that "failed" is the perspective of those making the "attempt".

I do agree that it is important to avoid cumbersome terminology. But I don't see the change in question to be awkward at all. A statement you made that I totally disagree with is that the changed language is a "not as generally applicable construction". To say "leader killed" is much more general than "success", especially considering that a large group of readers (I'd say the majority) would consider a lot of these examples to be a "failure" in protecting the leader. ChrisnHouston 03:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I added a ":" to each of your comments to better define the individual responses of each of us. Getting back to the matter at hand, I do see some merit in what you say, but remain unconvinced that your proposed change avoids being cumbersome (I'll admit that's partly on subjective reasons). I have however a possible solution, which I will implement in the table in a moment. I hope that will be suitable, even though you possibly wonder what all the fuss was about when my solution is not all that different from yours. Cheers MadMaxDog 09:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I like it! Nice work. And thanks for being flexible. ChrisnHouston 20:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

An idea for a tweak just came to me, so I gave it a go (rationale provided). See what you think, M^2D. ChrisnHouston 20:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Selective assassination

I consider said article to be a canidate for merging into here, unless we want to split up the subcategories already in here dealing with government assasinations etc... MadMaxDog 05:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

"to fatally hit a man-sized target"

This likely implies that the target is not human. Who would want to "assasinate" a cow or a table? I'm changing it.. Ozkaplan 08:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Malcolm X

Why is Martin Luther King, Jr. mentioned, and not Malcolm X?

I am not adding him myself because to do so would be to reward you for your childish, and conspiracy-driven VANDALISM during the last couple days. If someone adds a non-sensationalist, NPOV listing for him WHICH REFLECTS WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE REFERENCED MAIN ARTICLES about him, then I have no problem with having him in the list.

Except that the list, like all such lists, threatens to grow out of control... sigh. MadMaxDog 10:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced POV edits to Martin Luther King

User:Ghost of starman has been editing the list entry of Martin Luther King's assasination, basing his 'claims' on a totally unreferenced stub article of the supposed murderer, then deletes references from The King Center (see diff). Please watch for further such edits. MadMaxDog 10:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Stop reverting my edits. They are 100% true, and a Memphis jury agreed in 1999 during Mrs. King's wrongful death suit. The only people who dispute this are either lying or ignorant of the facts. Do a little reading on the subject before you try to censor a more knowledgeable person. I do not relish the idea of an edit war with you, stop being so immature, and do a little basic reasearch on the subject.

http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine02112003.html

http://www.courttv.com/archive/trials/mlk-civil/120899_verdict_ctv.html

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/022100a.html

etc. et al. The only real assassination going on is YOUR assassination of the truth. Knock it off. Ghost of starman 11:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

How interesting that you provide the references here, in a talk page, instead of at Martin Luther King, or at the actual places where you did your edits (preferrably before this whole thing started).

As noted, I do not think we are getting anywhere, the Three-Revert-Rule prevents me from doing another revert (I may have broken it already) and I have asked for outside mediation. I would ask you not to change the appropriate tags. Thank you. MadMaxDog 11:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. This is nothing personal against you, understand? But what I'm writing IS the truth, and also is the belief of the King family themselves, and the afforementioned jury. I can't stand disproven government cover-ups being presented as truth on a neutral encyclopedia. I think we both mean well. Ghost of starman 11:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

James Earl Ray was convicted of the killing. Claiming that the other person you mentioned did it is an egregious violation of WP:BLP. If you do it again, I'll lock the page. If you continue to do so, I'll block you. I hope I'm very clear on that. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who was convicted of the killing, it matters who DID it. I didn't realize Wikipedia was a propaganda stooge site. Nobody who knows anything about this case believes that Ray did it, especially not the people who were actually THERE! Threatening to block me is pretty useless, as changing IP is trivial. If you insist on perpetrating falsehoods, and being an ignorant fool with his head in the sand, then by all means, I'll leave it alone. For now. Ghost of starman 02:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, can you prove that Marrell Mccollough is actually still a living person? Because I sure can't, and it's likely that he isn't. So you are wrong to claim a violation of WP:BLP until you can demonstrate that this person is still alive. Why don't you try following your own rules, Mr. Admin? Ghost of starman 03:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Malcolm X

Amazing how people won't address the root of the problem. You can either add Malcolm X to the list, or suffer continued vandalism. I would, but I don't know the format.

Stop vandalising' (yes, YOU, you wrote this from the same IP) and we might consider it at some point (I'm starting to think the whole list was a bad idea). Until then, I'm not moving my ass for somebody with the manners of a spoiled brat. There is an article on Wikipedia on Malcolm X, which includes his assassination. Therefore there is no conspiracy or neutrality problem. What you are doing is the equivalent of throwing a tantrum because the Malcolm X link is missing a crosslink from another article. Go somewhere else and do something constructive. MadMaxDog 21:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Some points

Hi,

I've been spending a lot of time reading and re-reading this article in preparation of making a Spoken Article out of it. Some of the larger issues I came across:

1. Reference to Ford out of the blue, in the 3-views section of definition problems. What's this Ford case being discussed? (Yes, I know... but a reader new to the topic would probably not!). I am in dubio regarding the proper place to introduce Ford into the beginning of the article.
2. Not adhering to the definition chosen, for example in 4.1 As Tool of Insurgents. Since when is a police officer a political or famous figure? It seems to me that if we are to follow the definition, both ETA and Basque killings and terror campaigns do not count as assassinations. I know the definition says 'usually'... but then it's not much of a definition, is it? Can someone more versed in the English language shed some light on this?
3. In lieu of 2: Some weasel words appear to have snuck in.. worst offender: 'Many have claimed that a successful assassination of terrorist leaders Osama Bin Laden might have prevented the September 11 attacks.'... personally I don't see exactly what information this would add. "If we would have killed the mastermind behind *insert random man-made tragedy here* it might not have happened"... right.

Input on these issues would be appreciated! If no replies come in, I'll WP:Be Bold and make edits to the best of my judgement... but I'd prefer some discussion prior to altering a well-established article.

Kander 21:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Add Tsar Alexander II to the list?

Just bumped into this article and missed Tsar Alexander II of Russia in the list. According to the correspondent article here in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Russia#Assassination) he belongs in this list (which i'd modify myself gladly if i had any idea how to) Thanks a lot for your help! Jaui —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.16.249 (talk) 09:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Oswald/JFK

A citation request was placed on the chart next to the Oswald/JFK listing. I have removed it for a few reasons. First and foremost, the subject matter is ubiquitous. The fact the government report suggested Oswald acted alone and that some disagree is as much a known fact as saying "The United States is a country in North America". Beyond that, however, it is simply impractical to place a citation in this particular forum, because it would require WP:NPOV violation in order to choose what citation to use. Both names are linked in the chart, and the connected articles have copious citations and references and links to articles related to the assassination. Anyone seeking verification of the statement made in the chart (the statement preserves NPOV by reflecting both sides) can easily go to the two articles linked and find the desired sources. 23skidoo 15:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Quote or statement?

Under the sub-heading "Military Use," the first line is confusing. Is "Assassination for military purposes has long been espoused" a quote or a statement? If quote, it needs to be sourced. Jophus00 (talk) 03:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Notable list

In my browser (Safari3), the notable list is below the references, etc, yet when I go to move it up, it's already up there. Why is it split from it's regular section when I view it? —ScouterSig 03:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Redirect

"Assassin" should not redirect here. An assassin is not the same as an assination, and assains have a much different history, such as ninjas and hassassians.Rayvn (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

An assassin is not the same as an assassination, but the concepts are very closely related. Assassins are people who perform assassinations. Having two articles would lead to a huge amount of duplication — what would go in one that wasn't relevant to the other? And Ninjas and hashshashim are mentioned in this article, so what's the problem? —KCinDC (talk) 23:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

They are too different for one article, and the noun also includes pop-culture references. A regular encyclopedia, as well as a dictionary, would have two different entries. Mainly, in that assassins are used outside of assassination, such as regular kill-for-hire etc. Assassinations involve governments; assassins do not necessarily.Rayvn (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Assassination as murder?

In the introduction assassination is described as "murder", in some dictionaries this is the case, in others it is "killing".

In this article Yamamoto's death is listed as an example of an assassination.

Since "U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt requested Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox to 'Get Yamamoto'," would this mean the US president was a murderer, or that this was not really an assassination as it is defined in the introduction?

This could be cleared up by using the term "killing" rather than the more specific "murder" which is the same but applies only when the action is viewed as "unjustified". Constan69 (talk) 10:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It is nearly always murder in the jurisdiction in which it takes place unless it is the killing of a combatant in war (eg the assassination of a head of state, field marshal, or a specific subordinate). If it were not murder then there would be a trial locally or an extradition request and trial, before the killing took place. --PBS (talk) 11:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge in selective assassination

see Talk:Assassination/Archive 2#mergefrom Targeted killing & Talk:Assassination/Archive 0

For all the reasons given when discussing the reasons for merging in targeted killing. It is a content fork (and possibly a POV fork) that is not needed. --PBS (talk) 11:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I have redirected selective assassination to here as no one has objected and "Silence implies consent" (WP:CONSENSUS). I have not merged in any of the material because AFAICT there was nothing in that article that would improve this one. --PBS (talk) 18:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

per WP:CONCENSUS, "silence can imply consent only if there is adequate exposure to the community". Has there been such exposure? I doubt it. You replaced the article with the redirect, and after this was reverted by someone who objected to the "merge", you repeated your edit, claiming "silence = consensus", not realizing the revert itself means the community is no longer silent. I too oppose this "merge" (for lack of a better word to describe replacing the content with a redirect), and have reverted your actions once again. Please don't quote policy that doesn't apply, and note that assassination sanctioned by a sovereign government is different than that sanctioned by some organization. Odedee (talk) 17:24, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

As this page has now been a redirect for the best part of a year you will have to show that there is a consensus for this content fork. An assassination is a targeted killing by definition so what is the justification for an article called targeted assassination? -- PBS (talk) 11:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

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Etymology

Seriously ? Does this section really exist ? The section is entirely not quoted, sources are missing from everywhere... What this section suggest, is that the Arabs are all assassins under heavy drugs ! This is not neutral ! And moreover, wikipedia in other languages is far less absolute on the etymology of the word (the french wikipedia says that it is a very controversial topic). To finish, I'd like to say that the fact this section is the first one gives me the idea that some people want to make Arabs look like drugged assassins...

Free encyclopedic public domain source (CRS report)

I'm adding Congress's CRS reports to their relevant talk pages, since they're so thorough and you can just copy-and-cite the content ... here's yours:

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/CRS:_Assassination_Ban_and_E.O._12333:_A_Brief_Summary%2C_January_4%2C_2002

PS : I think this would warrant a new page, Assassination ban (United States)

• PS : see my contribs page for a list of pages I've added CRS reports to Agradman ^talk/_contribs 08:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see something about UAV's or Drones being used as methods of assassination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.39.31 (talk) 22:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Entomology of Assassin

According to the following link:

http://www.damninteresting.com/fortress-of-the-assassins

"A more probable competing theory is that the name is derived from the name of their leader Hassan-i-Sabah, since “Hashshashin” literally means “followers of Hassan.” The name itself was a derogatory term used by Europeans to describe the supposedly hashish-using sect. The term “assassin” most likely comes from a pet name Hassan had for his followers: Assassiyun, or “people who are faithful to the foundation of the faith.”

This wiki article states that Hashshashin literally means "takers of hashish". Which one is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.161.219 (talk) 12:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Also the article on Hashasin @ [1] clearly states that the meaning of "takes of hashish" is far from literal and far from a consensus... They are two very contradicting pages... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.103.30.140 (talk) 18:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Papal assassins

In many Protestant polemics against the Catholic Church, there are unusual claims that the Holy See had previously used hit-men to remove potentially embarassing political figures. It might be valuable if additional sources could be gathered on this controversial subject. [2][3][4][5][6][7] ADM (talk) 05:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Drone Aircraft

The article here includes a list of questions regarding the use of drone aircraft for targeted strikes on enemy targets. I understand that there is some debate about whether this constitutes an assassination, but I don't understand what it is about drone aircraft that makes them unique from other forms of airstrike. I understand that drones get a lot of attention nowadays, but how is a drone killing fundamentally different from any other form of precision munition?

I think a big part of the problem is that the line between military and civilian has become blurred by the unconventional forces we are fighting. We need to stop using the word "civilian" as though it implies innocence and start thinking in terms of "participant" or "non-participant." This is very relevant to our understanding of modern war and demonstrates why the Geneva Convention no longer fits the modern battlefield. (Under the Geneva Convention, our opponents are all "unlawful combatants" and have no rights or protections at all)

But to return to the question at hand, I think a solution would be to remove the debate about drone aircraft and focus on the underlying question of what constitutes assassination in the first place? Specifically, at what point in the enemy order of battle does a person rank so highly that he is regarded as a political figure and not a military target? In the past, enemy generals have been fair game for snipers (Carlos Hathcock comes to mind). I don't understand the difference between sniping an enemy commander with a direct-fire weapon and killing a commander of equivalent position with an airstrike. The real problem is that our enemies do not wear uniforms, and therefore the line between "military commander" and "political leader" is blurred to the point of nonexistence.

I'm interested in hearing other perspectives on this issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.27.1.18 (talk) 14:20, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Targeted Killing Not Assassination?

As you have obviously tackled Newspeak: Targeted killing vs Assassination, I would appreciate it if you weighed in at Talk:Anwar_al-Awlaki#Assasination_vs_Targeted_Killing, as I may not edit Targeted killing for Assasination due to an edit war I have managed to get sucked in to. The latest episode appears to be that some do not want to even wikilink the word Targeted killing, and won;t even allow the word Assassination. This is all happening at Anwar_al-Awlaki and Talk:Anwar_al-Awlaki#Assasination_vs_Targeted_Killing. Please help us in the talk page as obviously it has been trashed out for this article. 98.248.59.58 (talk) 04:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I see targeted killing as a form of assassination, as is apparently the consensus here, with some exceptions. Yes, if Anwar al-Awlaki is killed without trial, it will be murder, at least according to Yemeni tribal law which is what he has where he lives. Also according to my interpretation of US law (denial of due process before execution = lynching), but I doubt that my POV will be enforced in this case.

There are some differences between targeted killing and traditional assassination, which is why targeted killing has its own section here and isn't simply passed off as a euphemism. It's actually a more specific term and should be used where it applies. Thundermaker (talk) 15:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

"Targeted killing" is a euphemism for murder. End of story. It is a war crime.JohnC (talk) 07:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

New page; Targeted Killing

As reflected in the article itself even as I came upon it, there is clearly a substantial body of thought that targeting killing is not the same thing as assassination ("Pro:...They also oppose the use of the term assassination, as it denotes murder, where targeting such leaders is seen as self-defence, and thus killing, but not a crime.[33]").

Assassination is categorized under murder, which is an unlawful killing. Obviously, it satisfies someone's POV to put it there. But there is clearly not a consensus view in RSs that it is unlawful, and assassination.

See also:

• The Law of Armed Conflict: International Humanitarian Law in War, by Georgetown Law professor Gary D. Solis ("Assassination and targeted killing are very different acts")
• The Impact of 9/11 and the New Legal Landscape: The Day That Changed Everything? Day that changed everything?, Matthew J. Morgan, Bob Graham ("There is a major difference between assassination and targeted killing.")
• "Targeted Killing as Active Self-Defense", by Amos Guiora, 36 Case W. Res. J. Int'l L. 319 (2004)("Targeted killing is also not an assassination")
• Fatal Choices: Israel's Policy of Targeted Killing, by Steven R. David ("there are strong reasons to believe that the Israeli policy of targeted killing is not the same as assassination")
• "Targeting Terror: The Ethical and Practical Implications of Targeted Killing" E Patterson, T Casale, International Journal of Intelligence and CounterIntelligence, Volume 18, Issue 4 January 2005, pages 638-52 ("Perhaps most important is the legal distinction between targeted killing and assassination.")
• Ireland and the Middle East: trade, society and peace, Rory Miller (2007)("Targeted killing ... is not 'assassination' for three reasons")
• "Targeted Killing and Assassination: The US Legal Framework", William C. Banks, Peter Raven-Hansen - U. Rich. L. Rev., 2002 ("Targeted killing of terrorists is therefore not unlawful and would not constitute assassination")
• Responses to Terrorism / Targeted killing is a necessary option, Judge Abraham D. Sofaer, March 26, 2004, San Francisco Chronicle ("When people call a targeted killing an "assassination," they are attempting to preclude debate on the merits of the action.")

Absent consensus disagreement, I'll therefore create a new page for Targeted Killing to avoid any confusion it seems to be causing by it having been parked here. It should also be dramatically improved, as this can be a very good article, with views presented on two sides (as is the case now, but in somewhat brief fashion).--Epeefleche (talk) 06:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• OPPOSE : Seek consensus. The Consensus on this article is that Targeted killing is a subset of ASSASSINATION, Targeted Killing is not parked here, it is a subset of here. This editor was pushing a pov, and didn't even want a wiki link to this article, as he really can't give a good reason to blank a wikilink he is now trying to remove the wikilink target. Pray tell - You say as reflected in the article itself even as I came upon it, there is clearly a substantial body of thought that targeting killing is not the same thing as assassination, yet i can not find ANY SUCH DISAGREEMENT WHATSOEVER. I see strong disagreement as to whether the use of assassination : targeted killing is legitimate or not. I do not see one shred of dispute in this article that as you came upon it targeting killing is not a form of assassination. BIG DIFFERENCE. 98.248.59.58 (talk) 06:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Please desist. You posted a quickie here in talk and then went right ahead and made a very major redirect edit without seeking concensus, espcially in relation to an issue with an active editwar that is now being spilled over here by you - after a block warning in the edit summary of Anwar al-Awlaki. Posting here, then immediately doing the edit is NOT SEEKING CONCENSUS. I reverted your edit here. I know you are unhappy about there being a wikilink on the word targeted killing at Anwar al-Awlaki that goes here - and as you can't reasonably blank the four square brackets there with a leg to stand on you are now seeking to break the link, and then later replace it with some sanitized POV copy about the wonderfully civilized practice of Targeted Killing - that is utterly ridiculous. Sorry - it is STATE TERRORISM - like it or not - just because you do it does not make it nice or in any way DIFFERENT. 98.248.59.58 (talk) 06:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey, 98.248.59.58, can you cool down a bit ? Your emotion won't help and editor's personal opinions about the real world aren't relevant. I'm also not really in favour of a separate article about targeted killings, preventative killings, execution policy, targeted thwartings, interceptions, extra judicial killings, killing of non-state actors and the myriad of terms used to describe these actions. Furthermore the term targeted killing itself isn't restricted to state sanctioned killings. It's routinely used by human rights groups to describe assassinations by paramilitary groups/insurgents/death squads around the world. It's true that there are some that take the position that targeted killing, in the sense that the Supreme Court of Israel uses the term, is not the same as assassination but I don't think it is at all accurate to say "there is clearly a substantial body of thought that targeting killing is not the same thing as assassination". The terms are often used interchangeably and side by side by both media and academic sources. Treating targeted killing as if it is not a form of assassination is essentially a POV fork. It's a bit like spinning something off from the Palestinian political violence article and calling it "Hamas' rocket based resistance methods" on the basis that there is a 'substantial body of thought' that that is what they are engaged in by firing rockets at Israeli civilians. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I arrived here a bit by accident but have written quite a bit regarding Israeli assassinations. Just my 2 cents, I've rarely seen opposition to the use of the word assassination in place of/synonymous with targeted killing. I personally don't see any intrinsic positive or negative connotation to the A word (ie most people are unhappy with the assassination of Lincoln, and likewise unhappy that the assassination of Hitler failed). Whether Assassination belongs in a category on murder is something separate, because it is often illegal for one party and legal for the executor (if a state). Joshdboz (talk) 14:58, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• Speedy create / support The term assassination is indeed the targeted killing of someone. But it’s more than that. My two-volume World Book dictionary (and many other dictionaries) add something like this: “especially the killing of a politician or similar public person.” The term “assassination” is generally understood in an especially negative light in common usage because it is widely used to describe the unlawful, premeditated and targeted killing of U.S. presidents.

  This new page’s first use will be in service of our Anwar al-Awlaki article. In that particular situation, U.S. government officials say al‑Awlaki is “actively trying to kill Americans”. Moreover, al‑Awlaki declared holy war upon America. The U.S. president (with the apparent approval of the National Security Council) directed the CIA to capture or kill al‑Awlaki. The term “assassination” is therefore wholly ill-suited for describing a government that is acting in accordance with its laws and under the law of war to kill an enemy who seeks to kill innocents. Moreover, the current situation leaves us in the untenable situation where the Anwar al-Awlaki article links “targeted killing” to a subsection of Wikipedia’s Assassination article. This improperly reverses the order of definition; much like trying to define “rodent” as a “squirrel”.

  Since the U.S. government’s targeting of one of its own citizens is unprecedented, there clearly needs to be a new article properly describing the unprecedented circumstances; either that, or don’t link “targeted killing” and let the Anwar al-Awlaki article self-referentially explain the meaning. With regard to the I.P. editor’s statement of Sorry - it is STATE TERRORISM - like it or not - just because you do it does not make it nice or in any way DIFFERENT, I think this is simply a case where moral relativism is colliding with common sense. Greg L (talk) 15:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

  • While I agree in having a new article, I would prefer that new article not start with the assumption that killing someone like awliki is "legal". I am old enough to remember the US Congress passing laws in the 1970s that explicitly prohibited this kind of killing (because there were persistent rumors that the CIA had quietly arranged killings in the past.)
  • If Awliki was resident in the USA there would be no question that killing him, rather than arresting him, and trying him, would be illegal. If there was a guy, from nation X, but living in the USA, who was encouraging people to kill political leaders of nation X, or random people from nation X. Couldn't the USA arrest him for hate crimes? Encouraging killing is not protected speech, in the USA, is it? Even if the USA couldn't arrest him for encouraging killing, or chose not to arrest him for encouraging killing, the organs of justice from nation X could request his extradition. And if nation X wasn't a torture state, the USA would probably hand over this individual. But the USA would take a very dim view if nation X sent killers to the USA, to kill the individual. I believe, technically, this would be a breach of respect for US sovereignty, and an act of war.
  • Similarly, Yemen, Sudan, or any other nation where the USA went in with cruise missiles, could treat those missiles as an act of war.
  • Attacking individuals one considers enemies, who are resident in a neutral nation, is a breach of the laws of war. So I do not believe it is clear that this is "legal". Geo Swan (talk) 21:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
• Support. I agree whole heartedly with Greg's thoughts. SteveB67 (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I find it ironic that you miss the applicability of "politician or similar public person" to Anwar al-Awlaki. He's an al-Qaeda spokesman and recruiter, the closest thing there is to a politician within the Jihad movement. Splitting this article would be POV-forking and would make it harder to reach terminology consensus on the pages of targeted individuals, so Oppose. Thundermaker (talk) 16:41, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• No irony, Thundermaker. What al‑Awlaki is doing (inciting others to commit homicide) is illegal in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Yemen, and in wherever else the hole he is hiding in might be located. Noting your …the closest thing there is to a politician; any reasoning that attempts to place al‑Awlaki and people like him on the same plane as the politicians of countries amounts, IMO, to the “moral relativism” I referred to above. It is a worldview I reject. Sorry.

  Besides, your post, Thundermaker, seems to be predicated on the notion that a small group of individuals is free to flout the laws of the nations in which they reside and decide for themselves who they are at liberty to kill. It is just as wrong—and illegal—for eight militia members trying to kill police officers in America as it is for individuals residing in Yemen to flout the laws of Yemen. Both often declare that their god speaks to them that the killing is OK. Timothy McVeigh believed this nonsense too (the wholesale killing of innocent civilian non-combatants was OK to fight a “war”). But, that’s just my silly, silly take on it.

  Besides—again—with regard to the I.P. editor’s statement of Sorry - it is STATE TERRORISM - like it or not - just because you do it does not make it nice or in any way DIFFERENT, I don’t know precisely who he is referring to when he wrote …“just because you do it”… but he seems to not be talking about Wikipedians and is using the term more broadly. As such, his or her musings about the shortcomings of state policy are far beyond what we should be discussing here. Greg L (talk) 17:02, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

(Using my previous indentation because I hate triangle-shaped discussions.) For the purposes of this article, I disagree that assassination is a form of state terrorism. Terrorism is harming innocents; assassination is killing enemy leaders (justly or not).

On the other hand, I don't think that you'd be elevating jihadist imams to anything they aren't already by acknowledging their similarity to politicians. Hitler was a politician, how's that for moral relativism? Assassination also traditionally includes killing of evil kings and dictators, not just democratically-elected US presidents who emancipate slaves. Thundermaker (talk) 17:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• Does my trifurcating my post, above, to separate out that last paragraph help you to see that Wikipedia is not a venue for recreating Billy Joel’s song the Piano Man, where he drowns himself in suds to escape the absurdity when he laments “And the waitress is practicing politics, as the businessmen slowly get stoned”? I’m not going to debate you as if we are college students in a liberal college professor’s World Politics class. This is just about whether the link is appropriate. The I.P. editor first tried to change the text in the article to “assassinate” and, failing that, now is trying to link it to a backwards definition (“rodent” equals “squirrel”). Both techniques are attempts at POV-pushing because the I.P. editor equates America’s lawful actions by an elected government as being morally equivalent to someone who lives in a hole in Yemen and is breaking the laws there. Greg L (talk) 18:00, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• I support a separate article. They are related, but different enough, at least as far as sources go. It seems to be mostly legal assassination by powerful countries, but we aren't here to judge but report what sources say. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 18:17, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Let me try to better explain my thinking, by analogy. The subject: Abortion.

Do some people think it is Murder? Certainly.

Do some others disagree? Certainly.

Would it be NPOV to have Abortion be a subsection of Murder?

(rhetorical).

It's the same here.

All manner of highest-level RSs, academics, and jurists disagree with the proposition that TK is Assassination. Our job, is to follow the RSs. To put TK under Assassination in the face of thise would be rampant POV-pushing, the same as putting Abortion under Murder.

No harm follows letting it have its own article. And there is more than enough material to warrant an article. POV-harm will be done, however, by putting it in a section that, for example, the above RSs say it certainly does not belong in.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

• Sorry if my earlier comments were confusing, I think multiple issues are being addressed here. I support a separate article if there is literature that attempts to define TK as a distinct subset or even an act separate from assassination; it's not for us to decide on the merits of the arguments, it's a simple notability issue. However, because these terms are for the most part used interchangeably in the media, I do not think we should normally make a distinction between the two, and if the wording is a matter of controversy (perhaps in the al‑Awlaki case) that should be addressed in the each separate article on case by case basis. Joshdboz (talk) 19:14, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. There is such literature that defines TK as an act separate and distinct from assassination. I've set forth some examples above (when you have a moment, you may find them interesting). The second point raised is an issue separate from thisthread. But was decided already, on the Al-Awlaki page. There, though the RSs said only one thing, an editor sought to substitute the other. (They only said TK). As the above literature makes clear, the two are viewed as different by some serious RSs. And, therefore, not interchangeable. Though a POV-oriented editor may seek to treat them as though they are. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:45, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

• I support separate articles -- Some years ago I contributed a table in a discussion about the merger two articles related to this one -- execution and extrajudicial killing. It is complicated, and the boundaries of these different kinds of kiling are not entirely clearly defined. I am going to reproduce and update that table here. Perhaps the new article could address both "decapitation" and 007-style, liscenced to kill, authorized assassinations. Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 21:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

kind of killing	actor	notes
authorized assassination 007 liscenced to kill	state actors	totally authorized. totally clandestine. legality not always clear, depends on country. Clearly illegal under US law.
"decapitation"	state actors	totally authorized. typically this term is used during wartime, for targeting the leaders of the enemy country -- treating them as military targets, even if they are technically civilians. sometimes clandestine. sometimes acknowledged afterwards. legality not always clear, depends on country. The USA made fifty decapitation attempts in 2003, against Saddam and his most senior leadership cadre. The only success claimed was "Chemical Ali" -- but this claim was in error. Dozens or hundreds of civilians were killed in these decapitation attempts. The US military was authorized to launch depatitation attempts without further explicit civilian authorizaton, if they anticipated killing no more than 30 civilian bystanders.
mob hits	organized crime	With a few notable exceptions, always performed in the private sector, for the private sector.
summary execution	state actors	Generally only performed during martial law -- shooting looters for instance, when public safety precludes taking the time to take them into custody. highly controversial. authorized. not clandestine. a war crime, when practiced on the battlefield. during the Iraq war and Afghanistan war some US commentators have recommended dropping charges against GIs who killed unarmed prisoners who were no longer a threat, if they suspected those prisoners were "terrorists"
extra-judicial killing extrajudicial execution	state actor	Clandestine Organized Not officially authorized, to preserve plausible deniability. Examples Project Phoenix, the Janjaweed. Perps generally "off-duty" state personnel, acting on unofficial orders, or on hints, or on tacit hints that legal means won't work, and they should do whatever they can to take care of matters. Sometimes attempts are made to make the killings look like the work of non-state volunteers. Arguably also clearly illegal(?)
canonical vigilantes lynch mobs	volunteers	semi-organized no state involvement. clearly illegal
manson-style	lunatics	Organized, kind of. clearly illegal. I am including this in this list just to distinguish these killing from lone gunmen style murders.

• Huh?!? Assuming you’re serious—(and even if you ain’t)—why don’t you add “targeted killing” to your list and provide us with your first-pass effort. As Congress gave the president broad authority to wage this war, and since he approved that measure against al‑Awlaki and since that approval would have required the authority of the National Security Council, it is within the rule of law for the U.S. Since the CIA uses Hellfire missiles from drones in this particular theater of operation, it is therefore also not a “007-style” attack. BTW, here’s a picture of girls learning. Greg L (talk) 23:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I am always serious -- at least when I am not kidding. Seriously, humor is usually culturally relative, and doesn't translate well for contributors from the different cultures who work on an international project, like the wikipedia, so it should be avoided. Why didn't I add "targetted killing" to the table? Because decapitation; 007-style, liscence-to-kill, and death squads could all be described as targetted killing. Or, if you have an official definition, it should be used to distinguish from those other styles of killing. WRT Hellfires employed in "this particular theater of operations" -- the USA has already employed Hellfires in neutral countries. Neutral countries are not "theaters of operation". WRT US domestic laws rescinding the 1970s legislation that explicitly prohibited assassination -- I was not aware of this recent law, but my understanding is that the international agreements the USA is a signatory to over-ride domestic laws. Targetted killing, in a neutral country would be a violation of the laws of war. Pakistan remained firmly on record as objecting to the use of Hellfire missiles in Pakistan the last time I looked. Pakistan could choose to react to those missiles by withdrawing from the coalition. It could consider the unauthorized use of those Hellfire missiles as an act of war. Some commentators claim Pakistan's governments protests are "crocodile tears", aimed at the general Pakistan population, and that, on a clandestine government to government level, Pakistan endorses the attacks. If the USA followed the passage of this law with withdrawal from the Geneva Conventions, Hague Conventions, etc, then perhaps you could describe this as "legal". However, I predict you would find those withdrawals from the International agreements would prompt many WP:RS to describe the USA as an "outlaw state". Geo Swan (talk) 12:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks, Geo Swan, for deciding that a more focused article is needed to give this subject a proper treatment. I will be pleased to discuss matters of fact with you on the associated talk page of the new article.

  Please note that the U.S. law passed in the 70s outlawed the Executive branch, through the CIA, of assassinating the heads of foreign governments. That was something the CIA did with some regularity in the 60s in Central and South America. Terrorists who reside in holes were not on anyone’s mind at the time. Since then, Congress and the Executive branch have worked on new laws and procedures to cover the sort of stuff the CIA still has to do. And today, in the war on terror, Congress gave the president broad authority to take all necessary actions to defend the nation. There are highly secret congressional subcommittees that Obama keeps informed on what the Executive branch (CIA and the military) are up to. The targeted killing of all‑Awlaki was approved by Obama and, under the new procedures, that action required the approval of the National Security Council.

  As regards the Geneva conventions and other international agreements governing war, much of these laws were to ensure that civilian populations were not slaughtered as armies rolled through cities and were to ensure reciprocity in the treatment of captured prisoners: you treat your POWs humanely and we will do the same.

  During time of war, U.S. presidents have a surprising degree of power. During WWII, after German saboteurs slipped into the U.S. and were captured by the FBI, Roosevelt issued Proclamation 2561 and transferred the prisoners to military control. In the ensuing courts-martial, the saboteurs were found guilty and hanged. Proclamation 2561 cited “the law of war” rather than the “Articles of War” because the latter would have triggered the statutory procedures established by Congress for courts-martials. The category “law of war” was undefined by statute and represented the more general principles and customs in the field of international law as nations try to protect their countries and peoples from slaughter. All this WWII-business is being reviewed by Congress today as they ponder how to preserve your right of freedom from fear. Mine too.

  You might disagree with what the U.S. is doing, but I guarantee you that the targeted killing of Anwar al‑Awlaki is in conformance with today’s laws of the United States as well as the general laws of war as understood by the other Western democracies. All are in agreement that the targeted killing of someone who has declared holy war on a people and incites others to commit terrorist acts (as al‑Awlaki did, and is doing, and is continuing to do) is an act of self preservation that is properly within the scope of the law of war.

  Having a Navy Diver son who works at a Special Forces command, I can tell you that enormous amounts of money is being spent worldwide by the governments of free people to squash terrorist activities. Our Navy SEALs are teaching the military forces of other free peoples how to board hijacked passenger liners to prevent terrorists from killing boat loads of innocent peoples (yeah, that sorta silly ol’ stuff). All this, so their populations can go to bed at night and not be in fear of waking up, choking on their own blood as they suffocate from nerve gas. All this, so Wikipedias can argue here about abstract principles of complex issues of the “law of war” and fancy the exercise as more of an abstract, intellectual sparing than it is a deadly serious matter of preventing tens of thousands of people in NY subways from being gassed to death.

  I’ll close with the below quote from Michael Yon, who is a former U.S. Special Forces operator who had lots of expertise in al‑Qaeda years before it was a word on everyone else’s lips:

---

“But as the second jet crushed into the second

  tower at the World Trade Center, I knew bin Laden

  was the culprit, and that Taliban were harboring

  him in Afghanistan. Despite the horror that day, I

  was relieved. If al Qaeda had possessed

  deployable weapons of mass destruction, atomic

  or otherwise, they would have used them.”

---

Greg L (talk) 17:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

• Clearly, if the editors on this page provide input into the new article, it will prove to be an interesting one. I think Geo that you will find the first source above especially interesting, in regard to the points you raise.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:07, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

• Support separate page for targeted killings. Assassinations are targeted killings and/or murder at the highest level of political (and in some cases military) echelon. Plain 'targeted killing' may be the killing of mid and lower level operatives. While the word assasins has a broader meaning of hired hit men, assassination infers targeting heads of state by individuals or other governments. --Shuki (talk) 23:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

But Shuki, that is simply not the case. 'Targeted killing' is used to describe all sorts of things e.g. here are some examples. The notion that the term means a particular kind of killing (for example the preventative 'execution policy', I think is the HCJ preferred term, of the IDF as set out by the HCJ or the US's policy) when in RS-world it means many things seems problematic in terms of framing the article scope and avoiding POV forking based on a narrow and by no means standardized use of the term. And to Epee's strange comment "As the above literature makes clear, the two are viewed as different by some serious RSs. And, therefore, not interchangeable. Though a POV-oriented editor may seek to treat them as though they are." I agree with the first sentence but the rest is ironically exactly the kind of thing that a POV-oriented editor that has framed the issue around the few states that have a declared preventative killing/execution policy and a narrow definition of the term inconsistent with its usage by many sources would say. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Sean -- let me make it clearer. POV leads to one improperly putting this category in a box from the get-go. Legal, or not legal. NPOV leads to it being a separate article, and letting the article describe the RS-supported views as to whether it is legal, or not legal. Certainly, the view that it is legal is not a fringe theory. Hopefully, put more simply, you find the concept less strange and more accessible.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:56, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I feel compelled to respond to Epeefleche's "To put TK under Assassination in the face of thise would be rampant POV-pushing, the same as putting Abortion under Murder" statement.

• A UN Secretary-General has referred to Israel's Supreme Court endorsed execution policy toward designated terrorists as "targeted assassinations". This is hardly "rampant POV-pushing".

• Consider the case of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh and have a look at how the very the large number of RS news sources that covered this case refer to it as an assassination. If Shin Bet came out tomorrow and said, "Yep, it was us" it seems absurd to think that the RS are going to update their stories to say 'targeted killing' and refer to it as a targeted killing rather than an assassination from that point forward. These reliable sources are not engaged in "rampant POV-pushing".

• Consider an interesting paper like this in the Journal of Economic Perspectives—Volume 20, Number 2—Spring 2006in Hebrew looking at deterministic methods of measuring effectiveness based on over a hundred attempted assassinations during the Second Intifada. They are Israeli academic/economists analysing data for what some people call 'targeted killings'. They refer to them throughout as assassinations. Heck, in an earlier version of the paper they even explicitly state the following for the easily confused.
  • 1 Assassination is commonly defined as the murder of an important person in a surprise attack for political reasons. In the context of counterterrorism, other terms, such as “pinpoint killing” or “targeted killing”, are sometimes used to describe the same phenomenon.

These economists are not "rampant POV-pushing".

Sean.hoyland - talk 10:36, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

What I will say though is, if someone wanted to create an article specifically about the USA's assassination/targeted killing/preventative killing policy using the predominant terminology used to describe the US policy (not sure what that is), I would support that. There doesn't seem to be an article about that as far as I can tell and I vaguely remember that the legal arguments put forward by the US and Israel on this issue are quite different in terms of which bits of international law they think are pertinent.

I should also perhaps declare a possible conflict of interest in that I live somewhere where assassination/targeted killing is almost a national sport whether it's the almost daily targeted killing of monks/teachers/human rights workers/policemen/soldiers/islamist militants or the (attempted) assassination by sniper of a renegade army general downtown in the middle of an interview with the New York Times just yesterday, so perhaps my cynicism on this issue is coming through... Sean.hoyland - talk 12:01, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Sean, you have missed the point by a very wide margin here. The question is whether to pigeon-hole the article, guided by one POV, or to let the article standing on its own, reflecting the variety of views the RSs state. You're saying that sources are not POV-pushing also misses the point. POV refers to editor bias. Not to source bias. Thought that is not uncommon misperception. You appear to be arguing something that is not at all the issue before us. So let me re-state it. Given that some RSs say TK is not assassination (as I evidence above), and some you say indicate the opposite, it makes no sense to pigeon-hole this article into one category or the other. That is the reason for it being a stand-alone article. In that stand-alone article, I invite you and all others to reflect all RSs (in appropriate proportion, of course) that bear on this subject.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:03, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

You could have at least said 'missed the target'. To be clear, I don't want to pigeon-hole the article. I don't want to say that it is or it isn't assassination. I don't think that matters in the slightest. I just want people to be able to find information in a simple way and for that information to be presented within a sensible context. There are many definitions of assassination and some of those encompass targeted killing, others don't hence the arguments. It's semantics/splitting hairs for me. I think a better approach is to have an article about assassination, to have a very brief section within that article about targeted killing (although it should probably have a different name e.g. counterterrorism operations) and to have separate detailed articles about the targeted killing policy/legal arguments etc of specific states. We already have Israeli targeted killings. We don't have one about the US.

I also think your argument is a bit circular. It presupposes that 'targeted killing' is what you assume it to be. It presupposes that the set of sources you consider to be related to targeted killing define the term. They don't. Targeted killing doesn't just mean what your sample of sources about a particular kind of targeted killing says it means. Furthermore, targeted killing is just one of many, many terms used to describe state sanctioned killing. I think it's better to be specific about states and anchor the articles to those states and their counterterrorism operations.

Regarding POV-pushing, perhaps I was rather obtuse. My point was simply that an editor who makes statements that are consistent with RS that are not POV-pushing is also not POV pushing. They are simply making valid article content related statements. To describe that as "rampant POV-pushing" is misleading. There's no misperception on my part here. I'm acutely aware of POV pushing in Wikipedia from all sides and I oppose it all. It's one of the worst aspects of this place, well, that and the fact that there isn't enough swearing. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:35, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

From what you say it would appear that you are in agreement that instead of pigeon-holing it in an article that is a subset of "illegal killing", it should be fine to have a stand-alone article, and have that article reflect all RS views, in proper proportion. Given that, I think on that -- which is the issue here -- your view at the end of the day is in accord with what I (and most others) have had to say on this page.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:08, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• Epeefleche is correct about the new article. This is simply about having a new article specifically dedicated to a new phenomenon: the targeted killing of someone under the general law of war and in accordance with the laws of the country doing the killing. As a practical matter, this topic has an important distinction from “assassination” as that term is commonly used: purposeful and targeted homicide outside the rule of law (murder) of a politician or other public figure. All editors can work towards a proper consensus on that article, including those whose worldview is such that they write Sorry - it is STATE TERRORISM - like it or not - just because you do it does not make it nice or in any way DIFFERENT. Greg L (talk) 16:26, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

• BTW, “homicide” is the killing of one human at the hand of another. A coroner can make a finding of fact on a death certificate that an armed burglar found dead in my entryway died as a result of homicide. Depending on the state, either an inquest, or a grand jury, or a prosecutor may decide that the killing was a “justifiable homicide.” Now, “murder” (ignoring all its various degrees and cousins such as manslaughter) is unlawful, intentional homicide; a homicide (an act) constitutes “murder” (a legal concept) if the act was unlawful.

  “Assassination” is often understood as “an individual murdering a notable public figure such as a politician”; that is, assassination is typically understood as comprising these elements: A) it is a homicide (death of one human by the hand of another), and B) the action was carried out by some low-life individual, and C) the act was illegal, and D) the person slain was an important public figure.

  It appears that the language the U.S. government is using to describe what they’ve done with Anwar al‑Awlaki is “targeted killing.” Since these actions are in accordance with the laws of the U.S. (oh, yes they are) and are in conformance with the law of war as understood by the Western nations inhabited by free peoples, this latest move with Anwar, to me, would be best described as “state-sanctioned, targeted homicide under the law of war.” It is essentially a version of Roosevelt’s Proclamation 2561 during WWII except that there is much more congressional participation. Greg L (talk) 18:06, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Greg's non-article content related thoughts for the day
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Oh, I almost forgot to conclude my post with some pictures for the day. Here are two Afghan schoolgirls who fell victim to the third poison-gas attack by the Taliban. According to Human Rights Watch, the majority of Afghanistan’s girls’ schools are non-functional because of more than 200 attacks. Silly girls. You see, they and their parents had hoped they might too receive an education and reverse the rampant illiteracy rate amongst Afghan girls. And here is one of the Taliban’s religious police as he beats on an Afghan woman who had removed her burqa in public. (*sigh*) The Taliban unfortunately harbored the people responsible for 9/11. Yeah, that sorta changed things. The world was content to stand by and look on with curiosity as the Taliban blew up the 1500-year-old Buddhas of Bamyan. Like Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor, knocking down two of the United States’ buildings stuffed with people was a tactical success. Strategically; a big boo-boo. So now the West seeks a long-term solution. Indeed, nation-building is a slow process. But rather than sitting back and saying “sucks to be you,” the Coalition members are trying to ensure that all Afghans will one day enjoy this, the most basic of human rights: Leaders shall govern only with the consent of the governed. I mention this to address what I see is a fundamental weakness of the I.P. editor’s argument here: that there is a moral relativism and the United States’ attempts to kill Anwar al‑Awlaki is merely state-sponsored terrorism that is no different than if a terrorist assassinates someone. No. I will take a stand and not add wikipleasantries like “IMHO” to these two statements: There is right and there is wrong in the world. There is good and there is bad. The United States could not have been more magnanimous in victory at the conclusion of WWII as it instituted the Marshall Plan to keep German civilians from starving in impending winter of 45/46. And Japan after the war might as well have been named MacArthur-ville. The general oversaw the writing of Japan’s new constitution and abided by the United States’ pledge to allow Hirohito to remain on the thrown as long as he renounced his claim of being living god. For 65 years, all Japanese citizens have enjoyed living in a democracy and not be voiceless puppets of their military leaders. Once the United States had vanquished its enemies, it has treated them like friends. It fed its former enemies and gave them shelter. Nation building is nothing new to America. Afghanistan’s future has the deck seriously stacked against it. Hopefully, when America leaves, the future of the country will simply be in the hands of the Afghan people and not some nitwits who destroy girls’ schools. Finally, I will not sit idly by as some editors try to make our articles on terrorists read as if they are nice people, for they are not. Whether it is al‑Qeada or the Taliban, they share a key attribute: they endeavor to deprive free peoples of their two most precious things: our lives, and freedom from fear. Greg L (talk) 02:39, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Addressing the POV-fork issue

The major rational objection to a split seems to be that it would be a POV-fork. Here's a proposal to remedy that:

• Leave the Assassination#Targeted_killing section in place, with a "main article" link to Targeted killing.
• Include (in the new article) the notable POV that TK is a form of assassination, without stating it as fact. Also the notable POV that it is not. The first use of that term should link back to Assassination (here).

Comments? Thundermaker (talk) 17:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

You have it backwards. The POV is putting it as a subsection here. The reason is that here, it is under Assassination, which is under Murder. That's POV, as Murder means illegal killing. Which, as you can see in the first post above, significant RSs say it is not (as others disagree). The NPOV is to put in its own article, which neither says that it is murder or that it is legal justifiable homicide, and have the article present all significant views. Rather than a section here, a "see also" would be appropriate, as that does not suggest that TK is a subset -- whereas a section does.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Assassination is traditionally described as illegal because when directed against a head of state in that state of course it is. It is not necessarily illegal when done by a state (US for example) to an outsider, or Ford would not have needed to write his famous Executive Order 11905 prohibiting it. I do see it almost as a subset because with TK the perp and target have differing definitions of what's legal and what's illegal, it is most often done by stealth (UAVs from a distance), and the target must be notable enough to get the attention of a foreign government. I say almost because there are probably some people on the hit list who aren't public figures at all, known by the targeting government but not the general public. Thundermaker (talk) 21:08, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

The point is that significant RSs say it is not illegal. To put it in Assassination, which is grouped under Murder with other illegal killings, is POV. To let it stand alone avoids that, and is not POV. As to your last point, yes -- many who are targeted for TK are not at all well known outside of intelligence circles (though some are). At least before they are killed.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

This article doesn't say assassination is murder or illegal, template:Homicide does. And it says "Note: Varies by jurisdiction". I've opened up a topic on that talk page. Thundermaker (talk) 22:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• Reliable sources such as my two-volume, unabridged World Book dictionary and Merriam-Webster, here, describe “assassination” as a form of murder. Murder is a legal judgement of homicide; it is a conclusion that a given homicide was an illegal act.

  The decision to designate Anwar al‑Awlaki for targeted killing was in accordance with the Congress, the President, and the National Security Counsel and is therefore legal according to the laws of the United States. As this is the English-language version of Wikipedia, we do not need to look towards the Persian version of Wikipedia nor the *reliable sources* it uses to see if Yemen and neighboring countries consider it legal or not to blow al‑Awlaki out of his hole (though such a treatise might be a fine addition to the new article).

  This is simply about having a proper article to properly treat this particular subject without an improper association with “murder”, which reliable sources indicate that “assassination” denotes. Musings about moral relativism and the second-guessing of Congress by volunteer wikipedians who fancy themselves qualified to debate nuanced legal issues such as the law-of-war are entirely immaterial to the discussion and will not be entertained here. It will be kept simple: what do the dictionaries say, and does the explicit association to the illegality of murder best fit the subject matter. Clearly not. Period. This is not complex, though some would apparently like to retire to the smoking room and make it so. Greg L (talk) 22:48, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• I think it's important not to be too focused on the legal perspective here or get distracted by templates/category navigation. The scope of this article isn't defined by the narrow focus of lawyers and their opinions about murder/illegal killing/targeted killing/legitimate self defence by state and non-state actors within the normative framework of international law etc. This article isn't just about the legal aspects of assassination. In fact, it's hardly about that at all. Nor is the article a subset of "illegal killing". It's a subset of homicide I guess if you want to look at it that way but it's really just an article about assassination, a concept that isn't difficult to understand and a term that is commonly used without reference to legal arguments. Here's a recent illustration from Time about Anwar al-Awlaki, "Revelations of the link to Shahzad will most likely step up calls for al-Awlaki's assassination. The cleric has reportedly been added to the list of people preapproved by the White House for assassination by the CIA or special forces." The term assassination is used without any problems presumably because it's written by a journalist for public consumption using commonly understood terminology (just like someone saying honey bee when in fact they probably mean Apis mellifera, just one of several species of honey bee). The RS media don't worry about calling these things assassinations so I don't think there's anything improper about discussing the targeted killing of someone like a politician by a non state actor/terrorist subject to international law or the targeted killing of a terrorist by a state subject to international law in this article. I just think it's better to deal with the details of the USA's targeted killing counterterrorism operations in a dedicated article with a well defined scope. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

On an unrelated matter Greg, I note with interest the use of spherical nodules of graphite rather than flakes in your sewer cover to mitigate fracture formation. This, I have to say, is one of the more interesting things I've read in Wikipedia recently. It reminded me of something that I'd mostly forgotten, that fracture mechanics is interesting, for which I thank you. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

• To the contrary. When discussing legal concepts such as murder, Geneva III, and Protocol 1, it is of the utmost importance that one be sensitive to and informed with regard to legal concepts. The view that it is better to have the broad view of the uninformed, rather than the "narrow" view of the informed, is perhaps not one that is in the best interests of the Project.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Games

I think there should be an section added about the game Assassin's Creed 1 and 2, in the first game you are an member of the hashashin named Altair. In the second game you play as the son of an assassin in Italy. your father gets excecuted along with your little brother and you are going to avange his death. Later in the game you meet Leonarda Da Vinci, he makes a special blade worn on you forearm for assassination (other people, add more info) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.249.159.41 (talk) 13:23, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

It might be good to add some kind of "Examples in fiction" section which would list summaries of assassinations in books, movies, and video games. But most of the content you're interested in probably belongs on the Assassin's Creed page. Thundermaker (talk) 15:51, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

William the Silent and the Regent Moray

A recent book on William the Silent claims that he was the first head of state to be assassinated with a handgun, but there is some dispute about whether he was a head of state. He was "leader of a state" but so was Moray, head of govt. as regent for the infant James VI. PatGallacher (talk) 10:21, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

RFC: Should there be a separate article called Targeted killing

Should there be a separate article called "Targeted killing"? Is it separate concept from assassination, or is it an an euphemism for assassination? If it then former then a separate article ought to exist. If it is the latter then it would be (at best) a content fork or a POV fork and the title should remain a redirect. -- PBS (talk) 02:25, 30

Comment by Epeefleche

• Moot (and questionable). There's no need for this discussion. We've already had it above in this thread. I've given time for fulsome discussion. And conversation having petered out, and a clear consensus having been reached, I created the article on targeted killing. Philip, for some reason, doesn't like the consensus. So he deleted the article first -- really, who in good faith goes ahead and simply deleted the 100K text of a 150 footnote article? On the assertion -- in face of the above consensus -- that he can't see the consensus? Now, that having failed, instead of prodding the article or AfDing it, neither of which could be done in good faith, he says he can't see the consensus in the above months-long discussion which has concluded with a consensus. There is zero question it is notable in and of itself -- a google search will show you that. There is absolutely no reason for it not to have its own page. This has nothing to do with forking -- as the article sources make clear, and the consensus discussion makes clear. I don't know what his angle is. But his stating he can't see a consensus is absurd, as anyone reviewing it can see. I urge a speedy deletion of this moot request.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

If there is a clear consensus then it will be clear at the end of the RFC. What is your evidence that the term is not an euphemism for assassination? -- PBS (talk) 02:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

There is a clear consensus. It is shown above. Your bald statement that there is none is absurd. Furthermore, as to "evidence" that is is "not a eupemism" for assassination, why don't you read the article, and the footnotes, with emphasis on this section "targeted killing vs. assassination". As well as the above discussion of your fellow editors, whose consensus you would like to ignore. This should simply be folded up as a disruptive waste of time. All I can see in your discussion, when it comes right down to it, is IDONTLIKEIT. Your suggestion, that in the face of the above consensus which you would like to ignore, that this 100K article with 150 footnotes should be made a subsection of an article that people and scholars largely don't even think it is a subset of is absurd.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:42, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Epeefleche "There is a clear consensus. It is shown above." Then you are ignoring the comments by, Thundermaker (talk) 15:03, 13 May 2010, JohnC (talk) 07:14, 22 June 2010, . Sean.hoyland - talk 09:07, 13 May 2010, Joshdboz (talk) 14:58, 13 May 2010 (not clear). At most a dozen editors took place in the conversation. Hopefully an RFC will bring in more. -- PBS (talk) 03:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Rather than arguing if there is or is not a consensus and making personal attacks. Why not try to explain to me and to other interested parties why you think that target killing is not an euphemism for assassination. -- PBS (talk) 03:15, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Rather than make absurd statements, why not read the comments in the consensus on the talk page above? And read the 100K targeted killing article that you absurdly think should be a subsection of yet another article, that many editors and scholars have indicated it is not even a sub-set of. But yes, I've told you this before. And in the face of it you've simply: a) edit warred (even after being warned) ; b) repeatedly deleted referenced relevant material (even after being warned); c) mis-stated the facts; and d) started this needless, disruptive, wasteful rfc improperly. Filibusters have no place here. --Epeefleche (talk) 03:33, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Instead of making statements about what you do or do not think is absurd, and continuing to make personal comments could you please explain to me and to other interested parties why you think that target killing is not an euphemism for assassination. Hopefully you can do this with sources so that we try to reach a consensus on this issue. There is no fire over this issue. The article name Targeted killing has been a redirect to this page for a number of years. Keeping it a redirect while this RFC runs does no harm. But if it is determined by the RFC that it is a content fork, then harm will have been done to the project for the time that the article exists (because a content fork will have existed). -- PBS (talk) 04:00, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

OK -- that's ridiculous. You think that deletion a 100K article with 150 footnotes does no harm? Why, it deprives readers of the article. What does no harm is leaving it as is. And what would do no harm would be for you to read the article and the above discussion, which answer your question, as I have said repeatedly. And what would do no harm would be for you to stop edit warring, and exemplify the behavior called for by you, as is required by wp:admin.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:03, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

It does harm if it is a content fork or a POV fork. Whether it is or not can be decided by the consensus built during this RFC. -- PBS (talk) 05:39, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Should there be a separate article called "Targeted killing"? -- Cirt 05:01, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

What do you think? -- PBS (talk) 05:48, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Note

• Please keep future comments to your own subsection, and avoid interspersed threaded back-and-forth comments. Thank you. (talk) 05:00, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree and think that comments should be interlaced not kept in separate sections. Keeping them in separate sections tends to polarise debate and make it difficult to answer points. For example to answer this point are you seriously suggesting that I should have copied it and placed it in another section? If not then how does someone know that I am replying to the point you have made? -- PBS (talk) 05:48, 30 September 2010 (UTC)