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Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Clarification request: Discretionary sanctions appeals procedure	none	none	8 February 2013

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Clarification request: Discretionary sanctions appeals procedure

Initiated by  Sandstein  at 21:28, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Noetica (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notification)
• Ohconfucius (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notification)
• Neotarf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notification)
• SMcCandlish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notification)

Statement by Sandstein

Recently I closed a WP:AE request by issuing discretionary sanctions warnings to the four experienced editors mentioned above. These warnings have been criticized at great length, notably by one warned user and party to the underlying case, WP:ARBATC, who has announced their intent to appeal the warning. This raises some procedural questions. After ArbCom members did not respond to an informal request for advice, I ask them here to clarify the following:

1. Can discretionary sanctions warnings be meaningfully rescinded or appealed?

   Warnings serve to inform editors about the possibility of discretionary sanctions in the event of later misconduct. Assuming the warning is somehow undone, does the authority to impose sanctions based on that warning also disappear? If yes, this may make the discretionary sanctions system much more prone to obstruction, as it provides an opportunity for extremely lengthy and acrimonious discussions (as in this case) long before any actual sanctions are even considered.

   Recommendation: I recommend to clarify (and codify) that warnings can only be appealed with regard to the question of whether the warner is an uninvolved administrator. This helps others to avoid inadvertently making unactionable arbitration enforcement (AE) requests based on the invalid warning. However, appeals should not be admissible with regard to the reasons given (if any) for the warning, perhaps excepting patent abuse. That's because the warning does not impose any restrictions, but only reminds editors of the conduct standards expected of them in any case. Also, the rules do not seem to even require any misconduct as a reason for a warning, as they require case-specific counseling only "where appropriate". Implicitly, they only require that the warner has some grounds on which to be concerned about the warned editor's edits. Practice at WP:AE (somewhat dubiously?) is to even allow discretionary sanctions in some cases where the editor has not even been individually warned for any reason: article-level sanctions, and sanctions against parties to the original case and earlier AE requests.

2. In what (if any) venue may such warnings be appealed? Who reviews the appeal, and how is a successful appeal determined?

   Such warnings are AE actions, but how these are appealed is generally unclear:

   Obviously they can be appealed directly to the Committee. But what, if any, venues for community review exist? AC/P forbids administrators (but not others?) to overturn AE actions except "following a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI)." Phrased as a restriction, this does not create a venue of (or right to) appeal, as Coren highlighted.

   WP:AC/DS provides that "Discretionary sanctions imposed under these provisions may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate noticeboard (currently Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement), or the Committee". This does establish a venue of appeal, but raises more questions: Who makes the appeal decision – uninvolved admins, as is usual at WP:AE, or all uninvolved editors, as per the abovementioned provision? What is the correct forum – WP:AN(/I), as per the first provision, or WP:AE, as per the second provision? Is a warning a discretionary sanction according to the meaning of the second provision, and therefore appealable? Are there now separate procedures for appealing DS and for appealing other AE actions? The two provisions and their relationship to one another require clarification.

   Recommendation: I recommend to either delegate all appeals to a (rotating?) panel of arbitrators, while allowing en banc review; or to clarify that either only DS are appealable (with decisions made by consensus of uninvolved admins at WP:AE); or that this DS appeals procedure is open to all AE actions, per AGK.  Sandstein  21:28, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

We have a not bureaucracy / bold policy around here, and editors can edit articles without reading the talk page; therefore talk page notices aren't sufficient to ensure editors are aware of an area being under sanctions. Hence discretionary sanctions warnings: their purpose is to ensure the editor is aware of the sanctions' existence and therefore can be pretty much be placed by any admin at any time. It's an informative, not enforcement, action and logically can't be "appealed." NE Ent 22:33, 8 February 2013 (UTC) Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions is not coherent -- the top section says

4. Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways; (emphasis mine)

but the guidance section says

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

with no mention of identifying specific misconduct. Going by the top, it is an enforcement action and should be subject to appeal, but going by the latter it wouldn't be. NE Ent 23:32, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

I was involved in the AE discussion that led to these warnings and was even threatened with such a warning myself for suggesting that the filing editor was using AE disruptively to illustrate a point because the editor was the subject of an AE discussion at that time and admins were suggesting that a warning be given in that case (in the editor's filing the comment "here is someone you can warn" was a red flag). To me it seems obvious that warnings can create friction because they are rightly seen as stepping stones to sanctions. In addition, a warning involves an allegation of misconduct and where an editor believes their conduct is within the bounds of policy it is hard to not grasp why an editor would be annoyed with such a warning. Certainly, I was incensed at Sandstein's suggestion to warn me when my comment was perfectly consistent with drawing attention to inappropriate use of AE. Other editors were, in my opinion, also acting within the appropriate bounds of policy. I specifically believe OhConfucius made a reasonable argument, with evidence, that the filer of the AE case had also been disruptive in the topic area. Some of Sandstein's comments on this matter seem incredibly misguided with regards to AE procedure and are not what I would expect from an admin who frequents that area.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:00, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

I agree that this needs to be clarified and codified, very much. Please note that people are leaving Wikipedia over it. However, I cannot support the notion that it be limited to the sole question of whether the admin who issued the warning is uninvolved or not, but must also permit other bases for appeal, such as (but not necessarily limited to) a) possible factual errors or unsupportable assumptions with regard to the actions of the editor(s) being warned, and b) questionable applicability/scope of the ArbCom case the warning cites to the discussion or other context of the actions being sanctioned by the warning. The logic espoused by both Sandstein and NE Ent that, basically, warnings are just warnings and have no force, and so do not matter, is not actually always going to be applicable. In the instance that brings us here right now, it isn't the case. A warning under WP:ARBATC is a "special" kind of warning, even in Sandstein's own words in our discussions at User talk:Sandstein. It effectively constitutes something closely akin to a topic-ban, as after the warning is issued, any admin may block the so-warned user for any perceived transgression of ARBATC without further discussion or warning. The special discretionary sanction remedy warnings available under ARBATC (and other ARBCOM cases I'm less familiar with) can also demonstrably encourage the taking of other punitive, inappropriate actions, such as the recent bogus WP:AE case against me, dependent directly upon Sandstein's ARBATC warning, in which ARBATC is being used to attempt to censor my criticism and questioning of an admin candidate who has proposed very unusual, draconian approaches to the WP:Manual of Style, as just one example. The bare fact that MOS is mentioned at all is being used as a rationale for grossly over-extending ARBATC's scope to cover both WP:AE and WP:RFA, despite the fact that both are processes in which all discussions are automatically "personalized" already by definition, and in which discussion of MOS/AT matters and their relationship to editor behavior is entirely appropriate when relevant. The point being, the actual consequences of warnings issued under color of ArbCom/AE authority are considerably more serious and less predicable than those attendant upon some random administrative warning that might be addressable at WP:AN. They should really be called something other than "warnings", like "orders", so they're distinguishable.

In this particular case, I have shown (at my talk, Sandstein's talk, and at WT:AE, as the discussion's been a bit mobile), that Sandstein's accusations with regard to my post at WP:AE for which I was ARBATC-warned were false accusations. I do not say this as a means of antagonizing Sandstein; it's simply a fact, and I've proven it. Furthermore, even under the hard-to-credit assumption that ARBATC can logically apply to user-behavior process pages like AE (and AN, AN/I, RFA, etc.), the AE discussion in question was not even within ARBATC's scope to begin with, as it was not directly related to style or article title matters even "broadly construed", but user behavior matters (stemming from an earlier dispute at WP:AN, itself stemming from a WP:RFC/U, that ultimately went back to the now-blocked disruptive editor engaging, sometimes, in editwarring and forumshopping over a style issue (and other times sockpuppeteering in energy/power topics); the connection to MOS/AT and thus to ARBATC's scope is extremely tenuous.

Either of these points, but especially the former (the false accusations matter), should be enough of a basis for an appeal, even if the admin issuing the warning were clearly uninvolved, and I would like to make such an appeal as soon as the avenue is clear to do so. Not because I'm going to have my feelings hurt and cry because I was warned, but because the false accusations have a character-assassinating effect, regardless of Sandstein's intentions, and I should be able to clear my name unequivocally and formally.

I cannot impress upon the Arbitration Committee enough how serious a matter this is, as two productive editors, User:Noetica and User:Neotarf, have already resigned editing Wikipedia over Sandstein's warning for reasons similar to those for which I have been contemplating quitting as well. I refuse to continue volunteering massive amounts of my time to a project in which I can be falsely accused of wrongdoing by random administrators, and put in a "sword of Damocles" position of being blockable with impunity by the first admin to disagree with my approach to any style/titles matter, yet never having been subject to any kind of procedure topic-banning or otherwise restricting me for anything, and, ultimately having no recourse at all. As I use my real name here, the "reputation-bash-ipedia" factor is not in any way trivial to me. It isn't just, and it's not a tenable system of dispute resolution. PS: Th fact that admins have a strong collective tendency to reflexively side with other admins any time admin judgement is questioned means that avenues like WT:AE are not suitable for this and a more formal deliberative process is needed. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 23:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

PS: The "red flag" that The Devil's Advocate raises is essentially the same one I'm raising. There must be an avenue of appeal when a warning like this is issued and its appropriateness and/or accuracy is questionable, because otherwise other editors (including admins) can pile on the warning with a threatening, harassing "Ah ha, now we've got you by the short hairs!" campaign. Precisely this kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND/WP:WINNING misuse of ARBATC to just shut me up at all costs and punish me is clearly happening to me right now in WP:AE, spearheaded by an admin (not Sandstein) whom I legitimately questioned in my sole comment in the previous Apteva vs Noetica AE request that Sandstein issued me an ARBATC warning for! It's completely circular reasoning from which there is no clear path of appeal. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 23:30, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

PPS:Hans Adler correctly points out below that the problem exists from the outset in the warning itself: "If you continue to misconduct yourself..." I have disproved that I did in fact misconduct myself in the first place. (I can reiterate this proof if needed, but that's better saved for an appeal, not discussion of what the avenue of appeal is). The fact that this can constitute a false accusation, a WP:NPA violation, is one of several reasons that appealability of this particular type of warning is not "silly" as Hersfold suggests some people dismissively think it is. And it has nothing to do with "undoing a notice", as Salvio suggests, but formally voiding an accusation where the accuser refuses to retract it and there's no or insufficient evidence of actual wrongdoing. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 23:41, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

The evidence presented by NE Ent's revision, above, and Iridescent, below, seems to be conclusive. Even if the original idea was informational warnings that aren't stigmatizing, the actual warnings depart radically from this idea. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 00:27, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Hans Adler

All editors are responsible for all statements they make on-wiki. This includes statements in warning templates which they leave on other editors' talk pages. The discretionary sanctions template which Sandstein put on four editors' talk pages [1] contains the following sentence:

"If you continue to misconduct yourself on pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban." [my italics]

This was followed by free text containing the following indirect accusation:

"Please take care, in future disputes concerning the issues mentioned above, not to misuse the arbitration enforcement noticeboard (or other fora) to cast aspersions against others or to otherwise continue personalizing stylistic disagreements, as directed by the Arbitration Committee's reminder."

The additional text prevents the interpretation of the incorrect sentence in the template as a harmless mistake. This was not just a neutral warning that the sanctions in question exist. It was an accusation that these four editors had broken the ruling and would have been subject to sanctions had they been warned earlier. That may or may not be the case (I have not fully researched this as it would take a lot of effort), but Sandstein has subsequently made it quite clear that he was not in a position to know if it was the case and that he is not willing to prove that it was.

From WP:NPA#WHATIS:

"Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki."

Sandstein did not link to any page that actually is under the arbitration sanctions in question, or mention any. Instead, he linked to WP:AE, where he unconvincingly claims that problematic behaviour occurred.

An arbitration sanctions warning that comes with an accusation of sanctionable behaviour that did not actually occur is a veiled threat of sanctioning the target in similar situations in the future, whether they are actually sanctionable or not. This does not just exacerbate Sandstein's personal attack against four editors, it is also a concerning abuse of power.

With the principle that arbitration sanctions cannot be undone by other admins, Arbcom has created a potential playground for admins on a power trip. It is its duty to police it. If it fails to do this, this will have bad consequences for the retention of content editors. Hans Adler 23:27, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Re non-admin sanctions warnings

There was a time when I gave such non-judgemental warnings myself w.r.t. homeopathy. Then at some point I think I was told that only admins can do it. And in fact, non-admins seemed to have stopped doing it.

The change may have happened with the switch from the earlier evolving sanctions language ("Any uninvolved administrator may [...] impose sanctions [...] if, despite being warned, that editor [...]." WP:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy#Discretionary sanctions) to the new standard formulation that I believe came with the new irreversible sanctions and was implemented retroactively with an omnibus motion in October 2011 ("Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning." WP:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 7#Omnibus motion amending past cases).

At least for me, the new formulation did carry a slightly stronger suggestion that only uninvolved administrators can warn, though the language was ambiguous in both cases. I am surprised that the principle of admin-only warning seems to have been reversed in the meantime.

While researching this, I learned that also in October 2011, Will Beback discovered the persistent inconsistency in the rules for arbitration sanctions warnings which is complicating this case. (Warning only after misbehaviour or as pure information?) It appears that he was ignored at the time. [2] Hans Adler 01:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Quick comment by Iridescent

With no opinion on this particular case—I have no desire to read through the history of what looks at first glance to be yet another border skirmish of the Great Em-dash War—warnings, particularly official-looking AE warnings that those unfamiliar with Wikipedia's byzantine internal processes will assume are Arbcom-mandated, do have a scarlet letter effect, as people see the previous warnings and assume "this editor is a troublemaker" or "this editor has officially been told they're in the wrong. (It's exactly the same issue as incorrect blocks remaining in a block log, leading to subsequent "look at the length of the block log!" comments.) Given this, there ought to be some mechanism for getting a formal "you should not have received this warning" notice that the editor in question can point to later on should it be necessary. Whether it's a discussion on ANI, an Arbcom motion, or a formal vote at a WP:Requests for appeals page (which would be a valuable resource, as it would keep all the people who are interested in that kind of meta crap arguing with each other rather than wasting everyone else's time), there ought to be some mechanism for this, and Arbcom are the only people mandated to set this kind of process up. ("Consensus" won't be a goer, as the squabbling about what form the process should take will run on for three years and go nowhere—cf every policy debate in the history of Wikipedia.) – iridescent 23:36, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

@Coren & Hersfold—Template:Uw-sanctions is explicitly only to be used if an editor has breached sanctions, and is explicitly not "a demonstrable notification of the existence of sanctions in a topic area", and the statement "a warning does not necessarily imply that there was any misconduct" is flat-out untrue. The exact wording (on the template page, so presumably anyone using the template can't claim to be unaware of it) is "[this template] is intentionally worded to apply only after an editor begins to misbehave; preemptive warnings are considered hostile". – iridescent 00:06, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Statement by ErikHaugen

@Coren and @Salvio—Normally, what you're saying makes sense: a warning is just providing information and there is therefore nothing to appeal. eg. "Hey just reminding you about 3rr regarding your edits at such-and-such article." — There's no stigma, no judgment, etc there. Fine. But the warnings in question here seem to carry a sense of judgment: "it has been officially determined that you did something bad." Please see Hans Adler's detailed description, I won't repeat it here. Simply stating that there's nothing to appeal doesn't quite fit with these warnings. If an admin closes a discussion regarding misconduct and gives me an official looking notice with the phrase "If you continue to misconduct" then I want a way to appeal it. Or something. HaugenErik (talk) 23:57, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Dicklyon

It's really sad that Sandstein's prior involvement with Noetica (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive222#Topic ban proposal concerning the lame "Mexican-American War" hyphen/en-dash dispute) was to try to muzzle him, at a time that turned out be just a few months before Noetica led the 60-editor discussion that converged on the new MOS dash guidelines, which settled the disputes and were then stable for over a year, until Apteva came along and started stirring up trouble again. So Noetica got "warned" after Apteva's disruptive accusations against him! Makes no sense. Sandstein has been clueless about what's going on, and has caused us a disaster by driving away this very thoughtful and professional editor. Surely there's a way this can be undone.

Statement by Neotarf

I am flattered to find my name on a list of "experienced editors", but the fact is I am a relatively new editor, with barely a thousand edits and a year of editing.

Since September some of us have been trying to deal with the disruptions of User: Apteva, who has been given every consideration, every explanation possible. There have been repeated patient discussions on the talk page. A lengthy RFCU. Then ANI, AN, and AE, complete with all proper notifications and step by step instructions for appeals.

At the same time we have four editors who are effectively banned from WP by the actions of one admin, and their reputations besmirched, without diffs, without notifications, without discussion, without consensus.

I have absolutely no clue of what I am accused of doing, or where. I seriously doubt that I have done anything irregular; my recent comments have been mundane, and filled with boring diffs and policy references.

But there is no doubt that some admins consider the "warnings" to be useful. Once this template has been placed on an editor's talk page, some admins believe themselves justified in trying to get an editor blocked for making comments at a RFA, or for writing a word in all caps.

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• It is my view that warnings cannot be meaningfully appealed (nor, indeed, is there something to appeal from), even if the admin giving the warning was involved. The point of a warning isn't one of giving a "first strike", nor does it allege misbehaviour; it simply provides a demonstrable notification of the existence of sanctions in a topic area. It is not a sanction in any meaning of the term.

  That said, giving a warning of the sort should be seen like using any other templated notice: habitually misusing them is likely to be viewed as disruptive or pointy, especially if it is done in a retributive or retaliatory manner. — Coren ^(talk) 22:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• On the second point (and without going into its applicability to warnings): I would opine that an AE sanction can be appealed in general either (a) to the committee, (b) to the admin actually applying the sanction or (c) to a suitable venue where a consensus at least as reliable as that where it was imposed can be garnered. In practice, the latter means AE or AN, but I would think that AE itself is the "natural" first venue, even in cases where the remedy does not otherwise specify a specific venue of appeal. The restriction you mention does indeed clearly applies to any editor – it used "administrator" in its wording because, at the time it was written, AE mostly only issued blocks which only and administrator would have been capable of lifting. The point being that no AE-derived sanction can be lifted without a consensus in a suitable venue. — Coren ^(talk) 22:44, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
• I've not reviewed the AE request this pertains to, although I am vaguely familiar with it. Regarding appealing warnings, the simple fact of the matter is that if an warning was successfully appealed, nothing has really changed, except that (per the wording of discretionary sanctions) the user must be warned again before any sanctions can be applied. This seems on its face somewhat silly, as one can't simply forget that they were warned, and a warning does not necessarily imply that there was any misconduct. However, I cannot imagine why a warning would need to be issued except where there was misconduct; the way discretionary sanctions are set up, The Devil's Advocate is correct in that warnings are essentially the "stepping stone" to actual sanctions. I can certainly see where a warning would have a chilling effect on a user when they genuinely feel they have done no wrong and were "falsely accused." Going back to the first hand, though, an inability to acknowledge one's faults in the face of clear evidence is a red flag that sanctions will be required at some point. Anyway, I'm rambling, but I think the point is that while appealing a simple warning may appear to be moot, there is both a practical and a psychological reason for doing so. As such, I think appeals of warnings should be permitted; as to how appeals can be conducted, I agree with Coren's comments on the subject. Hersfold non-admin^(t/a/c) 23:16, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
• As usual, a couple of random thoughts. First of all, I believe that all editors are allowed to issue the warning that a given topic area is under discretionary sanctions and not only admins – if memory serves me correctly, this has already been clarified by ArbCom in the past. Since warnings are meant to protect editors from unpleasant surprises, by making them aware of the fact that their behaviour may lead to sanctions, I see no reason to restrict the ability in any way. Also, because, technically, warnings are not sanctions, I don't believe they can be appealed – their only function is to make users aware of the discretionary sanctions currently in place and it's not possible to "unmake someone aware of something". Finally, as far as I'm concerned all sanctions and restrictions imposed by an administrator must be appealable, first to the community (the policy reads following a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard, after all) and, so, this means AN and not AE, in my opinion, and, then, if said appeal is unsuccessful, to ArbCom. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 23:29, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
• Our procedures governing warnings lack coherency and needs to be fixed. Either warnings are simply to notify editors that an area is under discretionary sanctions, and can therefore be issued without a finding of misconduct; or a warning is supposed to tell someone who behaved badly "don't do it again or we'll sanction you", and therefore requires an antecedent finding of misconduct. To muddy the waters further, I also recall an earlier clarification request in which it was said that warnings can be made by anyone, and not just uninvolved administrators, and AE has long taken the view that a warning is not appealable.

  Now, if warnings mean "you did something bad, don't do it again or you'll be sanctioned", then they should be appealable in principle, and should be limited to uninvolved administrators, who are the only one who can actually make a finding of misconduct, but that is a big departure from current practice, and would likely multiply the workload of AE admins. The last thing we want is for someone to argue "but I did nothing wrong when I got this warning 3 months ago and it was by an involved editor, so the warning is ineffective and you can't sanction me now!" in an AE thread.

  My view is that we should strike "identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways" from point 4 in the top section of WP:AC/DS, WP:AC/P#Discretionary sanctions, and WP:AESH#Administrators reminded, and "or giving a warning" from WP:AESH#Rationales in warnings and sanction notices, and rename that principle "Rationales in sanction notices". {{uw-sanctions}} should be reworded accordingly.

  I'll need to think more about the second issue, but I do want to say that I strongly disagree with any suggestion that AE sanctions cannot be appealed at AE. I also think that AE is a rather awkward fit under the current page structure, and it is a good idea to move it back to its previous location as a subpage of AN. T. Canens (talk) 01:01, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• This settles on the question of what a warning actually is. If you're driving down the interstate, is a warning more akin to your passenger pointing out a speed limit sign, or is it a cop pulling you over, running your license, and writing you a warning "this time"? If it is the former, then there's really no need for an appeal system; if it is the latter, then there should be, because the clear undertone has to be that you've done something wrong, and that you're on notice for a substantive sanction of some form 'next time'. Sadly, I think the perception is the latter case, and this isn't really ideal. There has to be a way to not make it so confrontational of an encounter, and not a mere prerequisite for sanctions, but I've shoveled far too much snow today to have any grand ideas tonight. Courcelles 07:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
• As the warnings are being used as part of a formal sanction process, and the implication is that some form of misconduct has taken place, then appealing against a warning using the appeal procedures as outlined on WP:AC/DS seems appropriate and necessary. A sanction cannot be applied without a formal warning, so tagging someone with a formal warning puts them a step closer to being blocked. They can appeal the block itself, but not the warning (even if incorrectly placed), that allowed the block to take place. If on review it is felt that there was insufficient misconduct for a formal warning, then the warning should be rescinded, and should not be taken into account when dealing with any future potential misconduct by that user. I trust the AE admins to make the appropriate on-the-spot decisions, but anyone can make a mistake, and it's right and fair that if an action is questioned, that it can be looked into and reversed if necessary. If the decision was appropriate, then the warning is kept in place, and the user who was warned has had confirmation that their actions were problematic. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:41, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

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