Wikipedia talk:No original research/Noticeboard

Note: This talk page is for discussing issues relating to the Noticeboard itself. Please post questions or concerns about sources and articles on the main project page: WP:No original research/Noticeboard.

This noticeboard was created after N2e and Professor marginalia mentioned on WT:NOR that it would be good to have a place where NOR-interested Wikipedians hang out, and where people could ask questions. [1] SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Very nice! Dreadstar † 03:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

This is where the norns hang out, the malevolent ones and the protective goddesses. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Great idea, Slim. Lawrence § t/e 07:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Now we just need someone to ask a question. :) SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd like a malevolent Norn image. Is this something like Pan or Loki? Or like a neutral wood Elf ?Wjhonson (talk) 22:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I like this one because there's often a lot of unraveling involved.Professor marginalia (talk) 00:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It's perfect, LOL!! SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(OD) They look sort of like the weird sisters.Wjhonson (talk) 01:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Syntax repair

Including an image within the template:shortcut violated the template's syntax and caused this page to appear in CAT:SHORTFIX. I did my best to retain the spirit of the editor's intention. I hope this is not a problem. --DRoll (talk) 06:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikiversity transwikis

I'll try to come up with an attractive div or something for the project page, but folks should bear in mind that a lot of "OR" stuff would be just fine on Wikiversity. As a rule we (as in we the WV Custodians who will have to do the importing) would be a lot happier about it if the author(s) of the article would agree ahead of time that they'd be interested in developing the resource there (Wikibooks used to have a problem with being the unofficial dev/null of Wikipedia, and we'd rather not go that way). We have Special:Import enabled for sysops... ping me on my talk or any custodian on #wikiversity-en if something looks appropriate. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 19:17, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Just so we know what to send your way... are their any criteria that an article needs to meet to be accepted? I realize that OR is fine at Wikiversity, but I assume you do not accept just any article tossed at you. Blueboar (talk) 22:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, the most important criteria is that the person (i.e., the writer) is interested in sharing their knowledge (or even to some extent finding debate partners for their theories). WV is there for people to learn what they want to learn about, and sharing the things they've learned. OTOH, tossing things at us isn't a big deal... like WP, WV is "not paper", and there's certainly no harm in giving someone a space to put their thoughts down. Projects on WV only fail when people fail to find people to collaborate -- it takes a bit more effort to attract others (on WP you at least get people arguing with you about what's encyclopedic) -- those who are truly motivated thrive, the others give up. I guess the important thing is to not make people feel their efforts are unwelcome... if you get the feeling that someone really wants to share about something they think is really important (but the thing they want to share isn't really good for Wikipedia), send them our way. Help can always be found via v:Wikiversity:Colloquium, v:Wikiversity:Think tank, or on #wikiversity-en). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 23:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gohar Shahi is an example of unwelcome content that a user tried to move to wv after deletion at wp (among other projects.) Not that I would expect anyone here to suggest transwiki of something like that, but we do want to be carefull about wv not becoming a dumping ground for people pushing WP:FRINGE theories with the attitude that they WP:OWN the page. The kind of content that we really want to encourage at wv is something like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Skygazing which is now being developed at v:Skygazing. This is an example of how material that fails WP:NOTHOWTO would be within the scope of wv. I also try to keep an eye out for WP:SUP material that would be better at wv due to the nature of the assignment that the students have been given, which sometimes leans towards OR. Feel free to drop a note on my talk page here if you have any questions. --mikeu ^talk 15:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you are saying that as long as something is a serious attempt to write a neutral article about a subject, you accept it; but you don't accept POV rants or Fringe nonsense. Are there any other types of articles you would be likely to delete if it were imported? Blueboar (talk) 16:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

In general, yes. But, note that we do have a broader view on POV material. See for instance the proposed v:Wikiversity:Disclosures guideline. We encourage importing material where there will be an open learning discussion of the various perspectives on a topic. We would welcome material that fails WP:NOTFORUM here, but would be a bit wary if it looks like the editors are forum shopping for a WP:SOAPbox. --mikeu ^talk 16:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hydrological geoengineering is an example of something I think would be interesting to import to wikiversity. --mikeu ^talk 15:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

And if you could say something about your rules on copyright, that would be helpful too. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:05, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I might be missing the point of the question, but if you mean how to attribute, we use the Import tool (technical solutions often are better than policies). I realize most Wikipedians aren't familiar with what Special:Import actually does, but see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_between_Roman_and_Han_Empires&action=history vs. http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_between_Roman_and_Han_Empires&action=history for an example. GFDL/CC-BY-SA-3.1 compliant! :-). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 23:01, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually Special:Import is turned off at Wikipedia, so I suspect few if any Wikipedians know about it. :) MBisanz ^talk 15:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Please tag candidate articles with {{Copy to Wikiversity}}, which adds page to Category:Copy to Wikiversity. --mikeu ^talk 15:09, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Page editing error

This is the only page on Wikipedia that I have encountered that the "Enable section editing by right-clicking on section titles (requires JavaScript)" feature does not work. Why? It seems to work fine on the talk page.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It works for me. I think there are 3 standard reasons why it may not work: 1) you were logged out when your browser loaded the page, 2) you are looking at an archived version, 3) the page is protected. Hans Adler 18:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Wrong on all counts. And I'm referring to WP:NORN, not this particular page.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:09, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I was referring to that page as well. It simply works for me, both with Firefox and with Internet Explorer. When testing the latter I just realised that I have the section editing links even when logged out, so I am striking that. I hope you didn't feel offended – my experience from debugging software is that it's usually worth to state the obvious. Hans Adler 19:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can't seem to use the right click feature on anything but the first thread on the page.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for my confusion. Actually I wasn't familiar with the feature, and once I realised what you meant I tried it and had the same problem. To make up for my mistake I fixed it for you. The problem was that in the first section the following text wasn't enclosed in a nowiki-tag:

<cite to film>, while RS says X did not occur <cite to reliable source>.

This opened two pseudo-HTML tags that were never closed. Therefore all the following section headers were logically not on the top level. Hans Adler 20:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Clearing the backlog: can people with new issues comment on old issues?

There's a pretty heavy backlog right now. When I introduced a new issue on efficient markets hypothesis about 20 days ago, I commented on 3 outstanding issues. Nobody has commented on my issue, and none of the other 3 have any other comments. Meanwhile, people are adding new issues. These things need attention to be addressed, and once they are addressed they need to be closed... could we start promoting the idea of commenting on old issues if you're asking for a new issue to be looked at? II | (t - c) 06:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Question about original research

Recent edits that I made to Tai chi chuan and Chen Wangting were good-faith-reverted by an editor indicating that original research cannot be accepted. He also directed me here.

The edit in question has to do with the birth year of Chen Wangting, a martial arts grandmaster who lived in the 1600s. I have found inconsistencies about his birth year between all articles about him in Wikipedia (English, German, French and Portuguese versions); they all have different birth years. So to resolve this issue, I asked Grandmaster Chen Zhenglei, a Chen family member who is also a world-recognized authority in Tai Chi Chuan and a direct descendant of Chen Wangting. He wrote me back indicating that the birth year of Chen Wangting is not well known, and what year the family uses. I can produce the email that he sent me in support of this.

I then proceeded to edit the articles with the official year of birth that the family uses, and indicated Chen Zhenglei as the source. I believe that grandmaster Chen Zhenglei must be recognized as a reliable source, as he is one of the few spokesmen for the family, so any direct communication from such an authority must be legit and reliable. Consequently, I find that the reversion of my edits was improper.

So if there are any doubts about propriety of my edits, can somebody indicate to me what is the proper way of documenting the reliability of responses of this kind? What recourse does one have to prove the validity of these types of edits?

Thanks for any help.

(I have also asked this in Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research)

 Bruno  20:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

According to the Bǎidù Bǎikē (百度百科) or Baidu encyclopedia, modelled on wiki and set up by the Chinese Google-imitation search machine Baidu, Chen Wangting/陳王廷’s dates are 1600-1680. I thought I saw this request on the WP:NOR page but can'tr find it now. Hope this helps.Nishidani (talk) 21:44, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I would say that a person may be a reliable partial source for a statement about an opinion, a statement which itself must also be supported independently by a reliable source. How can the reader know that the cited person is indeed a genuine holder of the opinion?

Loosely speaking, a person is usually a primary source, and therefore, by that fact alone, does not usually qualify as reliable source, except as backup to a statement in a secondary source about that primary source. Secondary sources if well substantiated can be reliable sources. A secondary source must have some status as a reliable judge and reporter of things found in primary sources.

But no one person can be a reliable source for a statement of fact. The year of birth is a matter of fact. The family usage is a matter of opinion, perhaps well founded but perhaps not. The distinction between fact and opinion should be made very clear indeed, in the article. Very clear in the article.Chjoaygame (talk) 04:00, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

If your discussion is missing...

Then please look at the Noticeboard itself, which is where questions about applying the policy should be directed. This rarely used page is for discussing improvements to the noticeboard, not for getting help. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Loaded new organized header

As you may have noticed, I've loaded a new header and updated the top section to make it easier to understand. All directions are now in bullet points instead one large section, making it easier to "get to the points" :P. The color should be fine, since I really didn't want it to overlap with any other noticeboards. If anyone has a better suggestion for the colors, please do suggest them! Netalarm^talk 23:33, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

What to do about disputes that involve multiple policies?

Can editors of this board please join the following discussion here. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:15, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

RfC input needed

There is an RfC about the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard that could use some input, if anyone is so inclined. Cheers. --Noleander (talk) 19:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Why is there a Noticeboard if no one intends to comment?

What is wrong with this Noticeboard? Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 07:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Mrt3366, exactly what I was thinking. A waste of time posting here. Flyer22 (talk) 20:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Eh, but then again, I see that you are indefinitely blocked. Flyer22 (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

and, he posted 10 months ago, and there are comments on the main page as recently as today. Though, maybe wikipedians are unaware that this noticeboard exists as a resource? Where does this notice board fall in the dispute resolution/larger world of wikipedia?Quietmarc (talk) 20:17, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I take Mrt3366's comment to be referring to outside help. This noticeboard says exactly what it is for, to report violations of WP:Original research (a policy). Therefore, when reporting here, editors clearly expect some outside help, administrative or otherwise, with regard to violations of WP:Original research, just like the outside help that is received at other noticeboards. Otherwise, what is the point of posting at this noticeboard? To resolve matters that can otherwise be resolved at the article's talk page? If so, again...a waste of time. Flyer22 (talk) 20:27, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

@Mrt3366, for the benefit of those of us late to this discussion - could you kindly disclose which item you feel was unjustly ignored? --Salimfadhley (talk) 21:39, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Salimfadhley, as noted above, he's indefinitely blocked.. Flyer22 (talk) 21:45, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I guess this injustice will have to remain unresolved forever! <shrugs> --Salimfadhley (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)