Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

It has been 3322 days since the outbreak
of the latest dispute over date formats.

Grouping of digits in non-base ten

I've just wandered of to the Pi article and found some interesting groupings of digits. In binary and hexadecimal, digits were grouped by fours (which makes sense, four being the square of two and the square root of sixteen). In sexagesimal, it's not clear from this example whether there is any grouping but the radix point is a semicolon and the comma is used to separate the two-digit digits (yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense but look at the example & you'll get what I mean). I wouldn't suggest cluttering up the section on grouping of digits with such details but perhaps it would be good to mention that the rules stated there apply to base ten with a pointer to (an)other section(s) where details of writing numbers in non-base ten are given. Jimp 01:31, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Has editor time been wasted arguing over this on article talk pages? If not, then MOS should not be further bloated. EEng (talk) 04:24, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

That's a fair point. I only had in mind a few words but, yeah, bloat is bloat. Jimp 05:18, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

It always starts with just a few words, but give 'em an inch (2.54 cm) and they'll take a mile (1.60934 km). EEng (talk) 05:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

That's true. Jimp 08:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Beg to differ. I think we can tolerate 1.60934 km because it's 4000000 nm - which is approximately 5 % of the distance to the Sun - less than a mile (1.609344 km). Doesn't that give us some leeway? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:07, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

If 4000000 nanometers is 5% of the distance to the sun, then the sun is a lot closer than I had been led to believe. Can you rework the problem in furlongs? EEng (talk) 01:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Television seasons and episodes

I have found there is not a consistent way to notate season and episode for television series. Sometimes they are written as 1X19; 01x19; season 01, episode 19; or season 1, episode 19. Which is preferable? (I lean towards the last one.) LA (T) @ 06:15, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

This should be discussed on the talk page of the article in question. I don't see a need for standardization of this across WP. (And if we tried, imagine the yelling and shouting...) EEng (talk) 06:21, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I will take it to Wikiproject Television. LA (T) @ 21:08, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I wish I'd had the sense to suggest that. Good idea. EEng (talk) 21:47, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

EEng: And done, discussion now at Wikiproject Television. LA (T) @ 23:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Two queries

Experts, please, could you confirm that >30 without space is correct, analogous to +30 and −30; contrasting with x > y? If so, could it be included in the appropriate MOSNUM table?

And also, I'm finding people writing degrees Centrigrade with a circular symbol, whereas the one MOSNUM uses, which I've always used (option-zero on a Mac) is slightly oval in shape. Do you people find this problem too?

Thanks. Tony (talk) 12:37, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Not an expert but see ° article for your second query.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:45, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

This is why I use symbolics for stuff like this e.g. °. EEng (talk) 01:34, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Got it from that WP article: option-shift-8. Great. Tony (talk) 06:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Continuing re >

The relevant text from ISO 80000-1:2009 reads

"A plus or minus sign before a number (or a quantity), used to indicate “same sign” or “change of sign”, is a monadic operator and shall not be separated from the number by a space (see Example 3). However, for operations, signs and symbols, there shall be a space on both sides of the sign or symbol, as shown in the examples given in Example 4. See also 7.1.3. For signs denoting a relation, such as =, < and >, there shall also be a space on both sides."

Therefore ">30" without a space is incorrect. The text is followed by the following examples (cited verbatim except apart from punctuation)

• "EXAMPLE 3: A Celsius temperature from −7 °C to +5 °C."
• "EXAMPLE 4: 5 + 2; 5 − 3; n ± 1,6; D < 2 mm; > 5 mm"

Dondervogel 2 (talk) 13:10, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Donervogel. Tony (talk) 06:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Considering the ridiculous prices ISO charges, and their inability to distinguish corporate research labs with large budgets from ordinary individuals who just write numbers, times, and dates in the ordinary course of their lives, plus the crappy job they did with ISO 8604, I'm not willing to consider the views of ISO. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Which is why WP's styleguide trumps it. Tony (talk) 06:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not a matter of what's "correct", but rather what looks good and reads well, and as usual style guides will differ. Tony1, where does your question arise? EEng (talk) 01:34, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Offwiki. I use en.WP MOS as my default offwiki style guide (e.g., in Word), which means I need to know the keystrokes on the Mac. Question answered in that article linked above. Tony (talk) 06:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree "correct" is not really the criterion, but "ISO-compliant" (which is what I really meant) would have sounded pedantic. Your point is that the purpose of mosnum is to establish a housestyle, and that housestyle is not required to follow ISO. I agree with that too, but my point is that ISO standards, which go through a development period of 3 years or more, are there to make use of if we choose to. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 06:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Script-assisted conversion of Retrieved YYYY-MM-DD

Recall the September 2013 rendition.

Recall the May 2014 rendition.

User:Walter Görlitz again converts reference date formats massively. At a glance it appears to me that nothing has changed but the edit summary, now "date formats per MOS:DATEFORMAT by script" [1] (and appeal to STRONGNAT in subsequent summary) in place of the previous explicit abuse of MOSNUM. --P64 (talk) 02:19, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

And you decide to edit war over a completely correct date format. The problem is that the tool that used to generate the date formats used the ISO-8601 format, but some bureaucrats decided that because the source code for that was not freely available, it could not longer be used to generate references. The new tool does not use ISO-8601 dates and prefers DMY formats. So either fix the references in the article you appear to want to WP:OWN or update your sense of what's appropriate. Do whatever you want to the article, but except in rare cases (scientific content and others where the date format is preferred) , ISO-8601 should cease to be used for articles dates. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:25, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: ISO-8601 should cease to be used for articles dates is completely against agreed policy in MOS:DATEUNIFY. Using a tool is no excuse for acting against the MOS. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:14, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Peter, unfortunately, there has been and continues to be an on-going and widespread problem in which other editors using various auto-editor programs add inappropriate/inconsistent date formats to articles that already have well established MDY or DMY date formats at the article level. Frankly, it is obnoxious for any editor using an auto-editor program to leave their setting set on the ISO (or DMY) format without consideration to the established date formats of the articles; oddly, I rarely see anyone using an auto-editor program to insert inconsistent MDY dates into articles. I have several very large watch lists -- including those for international athletes written in both British/Commonwealth English and American English -- and hardly a day goes by when I do not have to waste time cleaning up after auto-editors who insert inappropriately formatted dates into these articles. And that thoughtless conduct is certainly no less contrary to the guidelines than that complained of above. As I see the same editor names repeatedly, no doubt some of this is the result of ISO proponents who simply think ISO dates are "cool." MOS:DATEUNIFY is a two-way street, which contemplated reciprocal courtesy for the established date formats of articles, and it was not intended as a beachhead for ISO proponents to insert their preferred style into articles in which it did not previously exist. If this continues to be a problem, there may come a time in the near future to revisit the permissibility of ISO dates per MOS:DATEUNIFY. I will also remind everyone of the final sentence of MOS:DATEUNIFY:

"When a citation style does not expect differing date formats, it is permissible to normalize publication dates to the article body text date format, and/or access/archive dates to either, with date consistency being preferred."

In other words, in the absence of an established citation style with differing date formats, it is permissible to conform dates to the predominant style of the article. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. And I will say in the absence of a template to inform editors that a style is being used, you have no leg on which to stand. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:08, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: no-one is arguing about standardizing access/archive dates throughout an article if the article is inconsistent. They should be standardized to the predominant style for such dates. Note that the section you quoted allows access/archive dates to be normalized to "either", i.e. the article text style or YYYY-MM-DD. If the wording is used to allow User:Walter Görlitz to replace consistent YYYY-MM-DD access/archive dates then it also allows any other editor to do the reverse. Neither should happen; the predominant existing style in an article should be respected as per WP:CITEVAR.

Peter, you know me and you know that I am a reasonable person; above all, I strongly support stylistic consistency within an article. When I am writing about an Australian athlete, I honor Australian spelling and stylistic conventions; when I'm writing about an American subject, I use American practices. In my personal experience, the ISO gnomers don't care enough to conform an entire article to their preferred ISO style. They just drop several ISO dates into the footnotes of an article that has a pre-existing and well established citation style and leave it to someone else who cares enough to clean up behind them. And, yes, I'm aware of what the quoted sentence says, but no one gets to insert a handful of ISO dates into an article that already has consistent date formatting and then claim that it's inconsistent, or just leave it for others to argue about later. It is an obnoxious practice, especially when the article has no ISO dates and has been tagged for "DMY" or "MDY" dates; these tags are routinely ignored. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:55, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I hope I'm equally reasonable! I support (of course) cleaning up odd ISO formats for access/archive dates; we are entirely in agreement on that. However, the reverse also applies; odd non-ISO formats in an article otherwise using ISO for access/archive dates should be cleaned up to ISO. If I start a new article, I always use ISO formats for access/archive dates; it's quite against current policy and guidelines to change these, whether or not another editor has added the odd non-ISO format for these fields. If I edit an existing article, I try to keep to the existing format (although I have to admit that I sometimes forget since overwhelmingly I'm correctly using ISO for access/archive dates).

The tag for "DMY" or "MDY" dates is irrelevant; it's clear from the project page and from previous RfCs that these tags do not apply to access/archive dates. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:41, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: a template informing editors of the date style used in the article text is for information only. I'd be reluctant to see yet another such edit notice, but I guess we could have one just for access/archive dates. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:40, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Alternately, add a secondary optional parameter to the two existing "use DMY dates"/"use MDY dates" templates that add in the reference style if it is determined to be ISO, otherwise assumed to be the same as the prose style. Avoids extra templates, gracefully grandfathers all existing uses. --MASEM (t) 20:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

And I will say in the absence of a template to inform editors that a style is being used, you have no leg on which to stand.; Translated: "Since I can't be bothered to manually check an article's citation formatting when using my script-assisted tool, I will instead accuse others of laziness." Honestly Walter, there is probably no action that carries less value to this project that a pedantic need to change a date formatting style simply because you don't like what is being used. You do a lot of great gnoming work overall, but this is just a waste of time. Resolute 20:11, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Correct translation: If you can't mark an article it will be modified because it’s a correct action. Actually the only action that carries less value to the rest of Wikipedia is editors who think that they live in a bubble and everyone else on WIkipedia has to read thier minds. If your "project" can't be bothered to communicate with other editors then don't be surprised if wer are WP:BOLD and edit the article according to what your guidelines state. I will say this one more time DO NOT PING ME TO T7HEIS DISCUSSION AGAIN. DO NOT LINK TO MY USER PAGE AGAIN. I DO NOT WANT TO BE ALERTED TO YOUR PEDANTIC WIKILAWYERING. You give Wikipedia a bad name. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

First off, I never pinged you to this discussion, so aim your petulent whining at the right target. Second, if the citation formatting is consistent, or even mostly consistent, we should not need to add more templates for the benefit of lazy bot operators or script users. It should not be my job to clean up after your laziness. Resolute 20:56, 27 October 2015 (UTC)