Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Radio Stations

Nomination of DYAJ for deletion

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Request

In my work with the uncategorized pages tool, I just came across WSGT, a brand new article which just consists of an infobox with no actual article attached to it. Could somebody who's more knowledgeable about American radio stations than I am take a crack at fixing it? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 18:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll add it to my to-do list for after dinner. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 21:36, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

 Done - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:42, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

REC Networks

It's been brought to my attention that the code in {{RadioRebroadcasters}} which generates links to each call sign's station profile on the REC Networks website appears to be dead; it now just generates error messages. The call signs in question are still in their database, as pages turn up if you look for the call sign in question through their search function once you're there — so the problem appears to be with our template code.

When I've done an onsite search, the working URL that shows up in my URL bar is structured differently than the failed URL that shows up if I've clicked on the link in our template, so this does most likely result from a change in REC's URL structure — but what's odd is that this only seems to affect the RadioRebroadcasters template: the {{RecnetCanada}} template that's used to generate an external link for the parent station's base ELs section still finds the right profile, even though it's looking for the same URL structure that's killing the RadioRebroadcasters link. In the particular example that was shown to me, CBO-FM, all of the RECNet queries in the "rebroadcasters of CBO-FM" table fail, while the "Query the REC's Canadian station database for CBO-FM" link under ELs still gets you to the right base profile — which means that the pass or fail difference boils down solely to which template is being used to generate the link, rather than to any coding differences in either of the templates.

And since I'm not familiar with complex template coding, I can't fix {{RadioRebroadcasters}} myself to correct for the new URL structure. ({{RecnetCanada}} is a much simpler template, so I can technically look after that one on my own — but for the moment, I've left it at the old structure so that anybody who helps out on this can actually properly observe the success/failure difference.)

Can anybody assist in getting this fixed? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 14:09, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Paging @Mlaffs: and/or @Diannaa:. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 16:20, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know how to fix this. I've noticed other broken templates too, such as Template:Albumchart and Template:Certification Table Entry. -- Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 16:27, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I thought it was a simple admin issue (protected template and all). :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, I don't know much about template coding myself, but I think I might have figured it out. The two templates were actually looking for a slightly-different URL — the RecnetCanada template used a leading database call, while the RadioRebroadcasters template had the database call at a folder level. I have no idea why one would work differently than the other all this time, but the fix needed no more than bringing the RecnetCanada template URL across to RadioRebroadcasters, adjusting the country code, and accounting for the possibility of multiple entries.

@Bearcat:, you'll probably have to do a purge on pages until the template change shoves its way through the maze, but it appears to be working properly now. Mlaffs (talk) 23:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Vandals on the WGTR page

There are vandals on the WGTR page adding their opinions about the morning show & a billboard the station has. They keep reverting my edits. It's an IP address user.Stereorock (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I issued a Warn2 warning and requested temporary semi-protection. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 00:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you!Stereorock (talk) 00:33, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

RFC: when are community radio stations notable?

We need to reach consensus on when/if community radio stations are notable. None of WP:BROADCAST, WP:BCASTOUTCOMES and WP:NMEDIA have the status of policy, however some argue that long-standing norms suggest that broadcast radio stations with a license from a national regulator (OFCOM in the UK, FCC in the USA etc) and independent notes of existence in local media are notable. Others argue that some/all of these stations are not notable - pointing to the lack of significant secondary references in books and other reliable sources. So the question is this: is a permanent licensed broadcast radio station notable, however small the area of broadcast? If not, how big does the area have to be? Is the standard of having been noted in (let's say) national media as per WP:GNG relevant? JMWt (talk) 17:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes they are per continued community consensus, per NMEDIA and BCASTOUTCOMES and NUMEROUS AfDs over the years. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 18:37, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• I would say not. Suggesting that despite an obvious failure to demonstrate that community radio stations (however small) generally meet the GNG that they're "notable" is an OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. Citing NMEDIA rather ignores the text of the relevant section, which holds that local radio stations may be notable under certain circumstances. It not only does not stipulate that all local radio stations are notable no matter the size and amount of non-primary media coverage, but finishes with "Editors might consider creating a table listing the radio stations in an area which might be redirected to rather than creating dozens of stub articles." Ravenswing 20:45, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
• I'm also opposed to this. There is no settled consensus that should allow us to have articles based on no sourcing or bare mentions and this means that, if permitted, such articles will be permastubs or entirely reliant on orginal research their content. If Verifiability means anything then we need to have sources to say anything. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
  • There is consistent, strong community consensus that radio station articles are notable. While I agree that sources are needed. There is a way to have a stub article with sources. For example, WKDE-FM is a stub, but a well-sourced stub. Four sources, two from the FCC, one from Arbitron and one from Broadcasting Magazine. Four highly reliable sources makes this a well-sourced stub. This could be done on each and every radio station stub we have. I'm attempted to do just that with Virginia based stations, but it is slow work because it is just me. But with more people on this project, it could be done. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 21:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to ask @Spartaz: and @Ravenswing: whether they think WKDE-FM has sufficient significant secondary sources to be notable. JMWt (talk) 21:32, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't care so much about sources here as the paucity of meaningful information. This permastub is tantamount to a directory listing. Unless there is sourced information we shouldn't host standalone articles of this type though I'd be OK with seeing list articles for such stations by a reasonable geographical division o aggregate these articles. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, because that's what we need more of....lists. Wikipedia is turning into an indiscriminate pile of lists because we keep merging or deleting articles. I'll bet you'll tell me next that WKEY (AM), WINC (AM), WCLG (AM), and WBCM-LP are without "meaningful information" and are "tantamount to a directory listing".

How about this...instead of merging and deleting articles, or creating more unnecessary lists, how about you all try expanding the ones we have. If you think they are "directory listings" and without "meaningful information", then add some. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 21:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

to be fair, the issue is of notability, and therefore the point being made is that sources don't exist in order to prove that the station is notable as per WP:GNG. I also ought to say that this issue has come up because I've opposed the AfD of a lot of community radio stations recently. JMWt (talk) 21:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

First and foremost, the US doesn't have "community radio stations". That's more of a British, Australian and Canadian thing. We have LPFMs, and while those do focus on one single community, in most cases they serve more than one.

Unfortunately, WPRS typically focuses on US and Canadian radio stations. I'm not sure we have anyone who focuses on stations outside those two countries. So, alot of UK and Philippine radio stations have been deleted. The Philippines, for whatever reason, have some issues with fake/false radio station articles.

NMEDIA and to some extent BCASTOUTCOMES focus on US and Canadian radio stations as well. We should have seperate rules/policies for US/Canada and other countries, but again that's because we don't have anyone focusing on those countries. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 21:53, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

In that case I may be one of the few that cares about British community radio stations. In my view the issues here relating to notability are exactly the same. JMWt (talk) 21:58, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

RFS Hello, if 3rd party sources indicate that a radio station is notable or well known then if the source is reliable then the station is reliable Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (talk) 22:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, but the requirements of WP:GNG are for significant secondary sources, and recent AfD NOM have argued that brief mentions of existence are not enough. JMWt (talk) 22:02, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

not to meet the GNG they clearly are not. The sourcing for the AFD in question noted two one line mentions of the station providing music in the context of two other events and a single line in a book to the effect that a license was held. This does not come anywhere close to meeting the GNG. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

That may be for British stations, but US and Canadian stations have always fallen under GNG when they are per NMEDIA rules. Let's not lump British and US/Canadian stations together. Just because British stations are being axed, doesn't mean they all should.

Each radio station article in the US has a link to it's license in the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) website. Likewise, each radio station article in Canada has a link to it's license in the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) website. Both of the FCC and CRTC are operated by their respective governments. So, an FCC link or a CRTC link is as reliable of a source as one can get. That in and of itself is enough to meet GNG.

Beyond that in the US, each article has a link to Arbitron, which we use as a secondary format source. I use a Broadcasting Magazine link (actually from their Broadcasting Yearbook) for launch dates and the like. Broadcasting Magazine is another reliable source backed by several GAN and FAC discussions. If they say it's notable, it's notable.

There are plenty of sources out there and they do exist that can show US and Canadian radio station articles meet GNG. Again, let's not lump them all together. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:13, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

wait, the AfD had a license from OFCOM, the equivalent of an FCC license. In fact all of the community station AfD I opposed had permanent OFCOM broadcasting licenses. If an FCC license is enough to meet GNG then an OFCOM license is. If it isn't then the FCC license isn't. There is no difference here. JMWt (talk) 22:18, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Again, I can't speak for British stations. I know nothing about them. I do know that NMEDIA and BCASTOUTCOMES are all about US and Canadian stations. So, again, we should not lump US, Canadian, British and every other countries radio stations together. NMEDIA and BCASTOUTCOMES are for US/Canada, not the UK. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:21, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Why shouldn't we? That makes zero sense. What is notable in the USA should be notable everywhere if licensed by an equivalent national regulator. Anyway, I don't have time for more today. JMWt (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Because, these are different counties, different rules, different articles. The US has AM and FM, you all have AM, FM, DAB and who knows what else (I'm not British, so I don't really know). We have 10 channel AM, you have 9 channel AM. We have crappy HD Radio, you have DAB. It's all different. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:27, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

That has nothing to do with it. If notability in the USA is related to the FCC license then by the same logic in the UK it should be related to an OFCOM license. That we have different platforms is irrelevant to the question of whether a regulator license gives notability. JMWt (talk) 22:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Dude, they are different in every way. OFCOM is not the FCC, the FCC is not CRTC, CRTC is not OFCOM. They're are different rules, regulations, the works. The NMEDIA rules were written out for US and Canadian stations. BCASTOUTCOMES are for US and Canadian AfDs. Sorry, but other countries didn't come into play when we wrote those.

Look, you started this mess, you swatted the hornets nest, you don't get to run off now. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:37, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, you don't get to have rules that only apply to radio stations in the USA and nowhere else. And I am allowed to go to bed.JMWt (talk) 22:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The core issue, when it comes to radio stations, is that there has to be a single, objective standard by which all stations can be cleanly measured as to whether they pass or fail it — the inclusion standards cannot leave room for subjectivity about whether a station is notable enough. Before the consensus was codified as what it is, even no-brainer notables like WABC, KROQ and CFNY were regularly getting AFDed on the grounds that they were "only" local stations rather than national networks, and thus were automatically "non-notable" because they didn't broadcast beyond a single media market. Once upon a time, the criterion for radio stations was that they had to broadcast "regionally", but even that seemingly straightforward criterion bogged down in constant unresolvable debate about how big a station's broadcast range had to get before it qualified as "regional" at all — even big 100kW blowtorches in metropolitan cities like New York City and Los Angeles and Toronto and New Orleans were getting listed for AFD as "not regional enough", on the grounds that they weren't also using rebroadcaster networks to cover some undefined amount of extra area beyond the reach of the 100kW main signal itself. So we can't allow the notability of a topic to get conflated with whether any individual editor personally cares about the topic or not. Accordingly, consensus decided that as long as the topic could be properly sourced, a radio station did not have to make any special claim of notability beyond the fact of existing as a licensed radio station that has directly originated at least some of its own programming.

This was never meant, I hasten to point out, to constitute an exemption from having to reliably source the article — obviously, a criterion that loose would have opened us up to having to keep hoax articles about radio stations just because they claimed existence (and we have enough of a problem with that happening even with an RS requirement in place.) But conversely, any notability criterion stricter than "as long as it can be reliably sourced as existing" would open us up to a constant series of circular debates about how much stricter notability was enough — and almost no radio station, almost anywhere on earth, would actually be safely beyond the reach of having its notability questioned, if the inclusion standard left room for personal interpretation. Even "meets WP:GNG" isn't a totally objective standard, in reality, because even the seemingly basic matter of how much coverage it takes to satisfy GNG is frequently a subject of debate and disagreement too.

There are certain classes of topic where, for "public interest" and "as complete as possible a reference" reasons, we accept that all members of that class of topic are valid article topics as long as they can be properly sourced. For just one example out of many, any populated place (regardless of size) is a valid article topic under WP:GEOLAND as long as it can be properly sourced, and need make no additional claim of notability beyond the fact that it exists. Members of Parliament are not sorted into separate "notable" vs. "non-notable" piles on any criterion beyond the holding of a seat in Parliament; as soon as that basic claim of notability becomes true, they get an article regardless of how many pieces of legislation they have or haven't personally introduced, regardless of whether they have or haven't served in the cabinet, and on and so forth. Plant and animal species don't have to make any special claim of notability to clear the bar; as long as their name is recognized as a real thing in botanical or zoological literature, an article about them is allowed to be started on the basis of a single reliable source.

So there's no special distinction being made here for radio stations as a class of topic that's being treated differently than any other; there are in fact plenty of topics where as long as the topic can be properly sourced, it need make no special claim of notability beyond the fact that it exists. There are plenty of topics where the class of topic is notable and important enough that as long as at least one reliable source is present any member of that class is allowed to have an article, even if that article exists in an inadequate state right now, because the class of topic is important and notable enough that we rightly should be as complete as possible a reference for all sourceable members of that class of topic.

That said, there is a big problem with radio station articles often looking very much like they were written by an intern in the station's own marketing department, and there are far too many articles where the reliable sourcing part of the equation was ignored. But those are separate issues from the question of what counts as a valid basic claim of notability for a radio station — and anything stricter than "licensed radio station that originates at least some of its own programming" leaves the topic far too open to subjectivity and abuse. Bearcat (talk) 22:53, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

That's fine if you are happy to accept 1 line articles because that is all the sourced material there is but inclusion standards have moved on and you need to have something that isn't going to lead to a bunch of permastubs. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:57, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

There's no objective notability standard that can be used to separate licensed radio stations into notable and non-notable classes on any criterion beyond the possession of a license — and any standard that allows subjectivity and personal opinion in the door opens up the possibility of even having to delete KROQ. If the choice is between a lot of short stubs and the entire AFD process turning into The Graveyard of All Radio Stations, then the stubs are the preferable option. Bearcat (talk) 23:09, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

First of all, Bearcat has (as usual) done a far better job of laying out the history and the problem than I could have, so...um...ditto. Second of all, the word "permastub" has been used three times in this discussion, as if it were an epithet. I remember arguments like this over redlinks in templates. Redlinks aren't a bad thing — they're a cue to a hole in coverage of a subject, which an interested editor might want to turn into a stub. A stub is not, by definition, a bad thing — it's an opportunity for an interested editor to turn it into a start class article, which is next month's C class, which is next year's GA. Stations change their call signs, or change their formats, or have their licenses transferred to new owners, and all of those are opportunities for an interested editor to open up the article and flesh it out a little more. Neutralhomer's area of interest and expertise is Virginia and area, and he noodles away at beefing up those. Bearcat's area of interest and expertise has long been Canada, and he's noodled away at beefing up those. For someone else, it might be Chicago, or country stations, or stations owned by iHeart, or whatever. Might an article be a stub for a while? Sure, but are we on a deadline here? Might an article be a stub for a really long while? Yeah, that's absolutely possible, and I'm not going to lose any sleep over that. Mlaffs (talk) 02:10, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Notable. Broadcast radio stations with a license from a national regulator are notable. The license is an independent reliable secondary source that contains significant coverage, and thus satisfies GNG. There is also nothing wrong with local media per se. In any event, the stations are notable for being significant and important so as to deserve attention (to paraphrase BIO). Having an objective standard for notability is better than reliance on subjective GNG alone. I also agree with the arguments of Neutralhomer regarding community consensus. The WKDE-FM article looks okay to me. James500 (talk) 01:59, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
• Not notable - I recently AFd'd half the UK community stations here and IMHO it does seem there's confusion as to what's what, IMHO having an OFCOM licence means nothing notability-wise and I expect the article to meet GNG (Even if they're primary/crappy sources, Mentions shouldn't count), From what I've witnessed in AFDs it seems NMEDIA/BROADCAST has always been applied to US radio stations but not UK ones and from the way the essay's worded it seems it was written by an American for US stations... All in all IMHO If an article doesn't mean GNG then it doesn't deserve an article (regardless of an OFCOM or FCC licence). –Davey2010^Talk 02:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: As I wrote above, NMEDIA was written for US/Canadian radio stations. It was actually written by several Americans...and a couple Canadians. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Neutralhomer Ah sorry I hadn't read what anyone wrote yet, Damnit well I was nearly right :) –Davey2010^Talk 05:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• I think so many people quote NMEDIA (like with other rules and policies), but have never read it either. :) So, no worries. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• The point about where and when the essay was written makes absolutely no difference. NMEDIA may indeed have been written about radio stations in the USA, but it a) does not explicitly state that it is only to be used for those stations and b) the rationale behind it can obviously apply to all radio stations everywhere. Lots of norms originated from N America, that doesn't mean that N America can or should have special rules which apply to their cultural output and not to anyone else's. In fact, the norms established about N American radio stations can easily be applied everywhere else, given that OFCOM is the licensing regulator for the UK as the FCC is for the USA. That's simply about fairness and universal treatment of the same categories of thing.
• The point about an FCC/OFCOM license has been well expressed by Bearcat above. Using what you've said here, all of Neutralhomer's pages would result in a AfD. That's ridiculous (as is Neutralhomer's rather personal insistence that I should argue rather than go to bed. Actually, I don't have to instantly reply to anything. I was looking for a discussion, which is why I started this, not hectoring). For the hard of understanding, I believe that all radio stations everywhere are notable if they have a permanent broadcast license from a regulator and have been noted in additional independent secondary source. Otherwise we get into ridiculous territory where a UK community radio station is only notable when Davey2010 says it is notable. JMWt (talk) 08:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• A subject is notable if it passes either WP:N or an SNG. At issue here looks to be not an SNG but an essay, which, if it yields results that frequently conflict with our guideline on notability (at WP:N), indeed should not be a promoted to guideline status. I think that in the large majority of cases a radio station, even community radio stations, are going to be notable, but I'm against the idea of exemptions to notability or guidelines (in the lowercase g sense) which purport a blanket exception that does not, in practice, always mean significant coverage in reliable sources. SNGs are roadmaps to apply notability to specific domains and provide useful means with which to evaluate what topics are probably notable. Appropriately, the fact of a broadcast license is a good indicator of notability, but it's not an absolute. It's possible, however, that there could be a compromise which makes explicit the already implicit fact that while radio stations are typically notable, they don't necessarily merit a stand-alone article. Having volunteered 30-50 hours a week at a community radio station for a few years, helped to build a couple, and having advocated for LPFM (and the like) for many years, I feel like I get what's at stake here and that I have a pretty good idea of the kind of coverage community radio stations get (i.e. they're usually notable). But the fact is, there are many LPFMs that are new and have not received enough coverage to merit an article. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 05:10, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't really help though - how does one determine whether a particular community radio station is notable? How much coverage does it have to get? I repeat, none of the recent AfD discussions have been about stations that got no coverage but the disputes have been around whether an OFCOM license plus local media mentions are enough to show notability. JMWt (talk) 08:06, 9 December 2015 (UTC)