Talk:Kfar Ahim

Palestinian vs Arab

To editor Number 57: Ok, you change from Palestinian village to Arab village, with the edit line: "Clarify; all villages pre-1948 were Palestinian" (which did not clarify anything for me....)

Now, the one source about this (Khalidi) is called "All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948." It is not called "All That Remains: The Arab Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948," or "All That Remains: The Arab Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948".

We should follow what WP:RS calls them, surely? And to say that all Palestinian are Arab, is a bit like saying that all Englishmen are European; we don't go around changing all "English" identities into "European", do we? Huldra (talk) 20:29, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I will respond fully to this in a few days when I have access to a computer. In the meantime, I think it was clear in my edit summary that this is referring to a pre-1948 village, so "Palestinian" is meaningless in terms of the ethnicity of the villagers - "Arab" is clear, correct amd was the term commonly used at the time (hence e.g. 1936-1939 Arab revolt in Palestine). Number 57 07:06, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

That it was "the term commonly used at the time (hence e.g. 1936-1939 Arab revolt in Palestine)" is simply not relevant; we don't call, say Willa Brown a "negro" (even though she was called so in the 1940s), we call her African-American. It is really insulting to continue to insist on calling the Palestinian villages for "Arab", when the WP:RS calls them Palestinian. I'm willing to go for a RFC on this, Huldra (talk) 20:58, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

To compare using "Arab" with "negro" is one of the most derisory arguments I've ever heard made in this topic area, and the bar had been set pretty low. Almost as bad as is picking a source that uses the terminology you want and insisting that it's therefore what we should use (I recall this being a tactic of an editor who is thankfully no longer active). Given the dominance of pro-Palestinian editors in this sphere, an RfC is useless unless it's limited to outside editors, otherwise the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Number 57 12:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

And I was hoping we could avoid name-calling? As for "picking a source that uses the terminology you want", please tell me which other sources there are, which list the Israeli settlements on the 1948-villages lands? (Sources in English, that is; I don't read Hebrew or Arabic.) I honestly have no idea about any other source, than Khalidi. As for RfC, I don't agree with you about "the dominance of pro-Palestinian editors", but I would be quite willing to accept a RfC with only "outside editors"; I think they will go with what WP:RS shows, Huldra (talk) 20:43, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

What name calling? You know as well as I do that we do not have to use the specific names used by sources – we go by what is acceptable to call things in Wikipedia's voice. For instance, Wikipedia calls the country "Ivory Coast" despite the fact that some sources call it "Cote d'Ivoire". It would not be acceptable for an editor to start using "Cote d'Ivoire" in an article about something to do with that country on the basis that the source they are using calls it that. "Palestinian" is not a helpful term here because it does not clarify to the reader whether it was a Jewish or Arab village (it seems to be being shoehorned in as a WP:POINT) – and, as such, the main article about this subject is List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus, not List of Palestinian towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus. Number 57 07:56, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Given the huge number of articles in which the same issue arises, one of you should start a RfC; and meanwhile not make bulk changes. Zero^talk 09:37, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

I looked at all the uses of "Palestinian village" in the thousands of books and papers on my computer and the only ones I could find that used "Palestinian village" for a village of Jews were a few about the Byzantine period. Maybe I missed one. I'm not convinced by the argument that "Palestinian village" is ambiguous. On the contrary, I'm certain that every reader will know exactly what the intended meaning is. Zero^talk 09:46, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Arab vs. Palestinian?

This issue concerns all the Palestinian villages depopulated in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and all the Israeli settlements which were built on their lands after 1948. The "standard" text book used here is:

• Khalidi, Walid (1992). All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948. Washington D.C.: Institute for Palestine Studies. ISBN 0-88728-224-5. ISBN 0-88728-224-5.

Should these villages be called "Arab" or "Palestinian"? Or perhaps "Arab Palestinian"? I have argued that they should be called "Palestinian", as that is what their source say, and that is what is most unambiguous. Another editor (Number 57) has argued that ""Palestinian" is not a helpful term here because it does not clarify to the reader whether it was a Jewish or Arab village." Outside views are welcome. Huldra (talk) 20:31, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Just to clarify, these are not Israeli settlements, these are villages in Israel proper. That is one of the reasons why Palestinian is a problematic word here, in addition to those outlined above. Also, I believe RfCs are meant to be worded neutrally, yet the opening sentence above has the preferred wording of the editor who started it. Number 57 09:51, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment Number 57 I see that you are doing exactly what Zero0000 asked us not to do; the is: going around making bulk changes of all "Palestinian" into "Arab". And that, after this RfC was opened: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], Please stop. Im astonished to find such behaviour in an admin. Huldra (talk) 17:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
    • I'm simply changing back all the ones you changed recently. Could you address the non-neutral wording of the RfC please? Number 57 02:40, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
      • I have NOT changed/inserted any of these after I started this RfC! But you, after you had commented on this RfC, then you go on a changing spree ([11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25]), changing the wording into your own preferred wording. I cannot even imagine how you think this is acceptable behaviour? And if you think the wording of this RfC is wrong, the please feel free to suggest a change. Huldra (talk) 20:45, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
        • Removing the words "Palestinian" and replacing "Israeli settlements" with "villages". But the RfC has had numerous responses already with this biased opening gambit. I hope the closing admin takes this into account. Number 57 08:31, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
• Comment I suggest that Huldra will reword the RFC to be neutral according to the requirements.I think we shouldn't use  "Palestinian" as it suggest that the village territory belong to Palestinian State.-- Shrike (talk) 15:15, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment Hhhhmmm, what?? What about Palestinians in, say, Lebanon, do people perceive that they live in a territory belonging to the Palestinian State? Of course not. A large part (around half) of all Palestinians live outside Israel/Palestine, and I think most people are aware of that. (And that those Palestinian people living in Lebanon mostly came exactly from these Palestinian villages we are talking about.) Shrike: basically, what Number 57 and I disagree about, (see all the above diffs), is whether we should write [[Palestinian people|Palestinian]] (My preference), or [[Palestinian people|Arab]] (Number 57 preference)

• • Having said this, I'm not saying that my wording for this RfC is perfect, and I'm absolutely open for any concrete suggestion as to improvement. We could, e.g., instead of "Israeli settlements", call them "Israeli kibbutz/moshavs", as virtually all of them were just that? Huldra (talk) 17:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
• Palestinian, that is the commonly used term, it is the term used by the source and the term linked to. I see no ambiguity or likelihood of confusion, however if clarification is needed, Palestinian Arab would clarify. I think 'Arab' alone is more misleading, suggesting people who wandered in from an adjacent country! Pincrete (talk) 22:12, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment just a note; while my first preference is [[Palestinian people|Palestinian]], I could live with [[Palestinian people|Palestinian Arab]]. What I find completely unacceptable is [[Palestinian people|Arab]]. Huldra (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - The word Palestinian is not limited to the modern state of Palestine or for that matter Israel. Arab is too general a term, the people described were Palestinian Arabs at the time. nableezy - 23:47, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
• Palestinian village (first choice), Palestinian Arab village (second choice). Responses to arguments: (1) Although Jewish villages in the mandate period were Palestinian villages strictly speaking, it is almost impossible to find this usage in either published sources or common parlance. Therefore there is no case that "Palestinian village" is ambiguous or misleading. (2) I simply don't believe that any reader will believe a reference to a Palestinian state is intended. Zero^talk 07:49, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
• Palestinian Arab. Arabs of Mandatory Palestine. We can't say "Palestinian refugees" came from "Arab villages", but not say the same with "Palestinian villages". The best way to write it is "Palestinian Arabs". After 1948, they are "Israeli Arabs", Arabs of Israel. The residents of the Palestinian Territories, are automatically refered as Palestinians.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:18, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
• Palestinian villages. The context makes it clear that they are villages once inhabited by Arabs. Borsoka (talk) 04:30, 14 January 2017 (UTC) Palistinian Arab villages or Arab villages. (as per below) Borsoka (talk) 11:59, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
  • @Borsoka: But there is no context in the majority of cases as the articles simply state something along the lines of "XXX was built on land that had belonged to the depopulated Arab/Palestinian village of YYY". With your preferred option, it will simply say "XXX was built on land that had belonged to the depopulated Palestinian village of YYY", giving no clue that this refers to an Arab village unless the link is clicked on. Number 57 08:31, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I may have no deep knowledge of the events. Could you mention a case when a non-Arab village was depopulated in Palestine during the war? Borsoka (talk) 10:46, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
      • @Borsoka: Yes, there are several – see {{Jewish villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestine war}} Number 57 11:50, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
        • @Borsoka: That is pretty disingenuous, as all the cases we are talking about involves Palestinian Arab villages replaced with Jewish settlement. It seems that some people have an allergy towards the word "Palestinian"; they are only "Arabs"; that way they can "go back" to where other Arabs live......To repeat: the only time "Palestinian village" was used about Jewish villages, was back in Byzantine times, while what we are talking about is the 1948 depopulated villages.Huldra (talk) 12:27, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
          • Please read and apply WP:Civility. Sorry, I do not want to make any more comments in this discussion. Borsoka (talk) 12:49, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

And this is not only a borderline PA (accusing other users of being disingenuous for a start) it is also wrong. I have no issue with the word "Palestinian" and have no issue with saying that the Gaza strip ans the west bank are Palestine. But we are writing an encyclopedia for future generations who may not be aware of out peculiar political causes. A time when there may well be a wholly independent Palestinian state. Moreover I no more think "Arabs" should get back to "Arabia" then I think Jews should all go back to Judea. I ask you to strike this comment.Slatersteven (talk) 12:46, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the main source we use for these places is called All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948. It is not called "The Arab Villages Occupied and Depopulated" or "The Palestinian Arab Villages Occupied and Depopulated". Another much used source is Palestinian Village Histories: Geographies of the Displaced. I have asked for sources which use a different name, (and do not use the name "Palestinian"), but none have been given. Still people insist on calling them "Arab". I thought Wikipedia policy was to go after what WP:RS tells us? Huldra (talk) 14:44, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

• Comment (please help an uninvolved ed), exactly what is at issue here? If the villages were in Palestine they are Palestinian villages (in the same was Southend is an English town). The people who lived there can be either called Palestinian (and in Southend, English) or Arab (SOS, White) or PAlestinian Arab (in SOS English white). It depends on what we are writing. From context we are talking about (in effect) one ethnic group being moved on (correct?), so in that context it is the ethnicity that matters, not the nationality.Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
  • @Slatersteven: Yes, we are talking about an ethnic group being moved (i.e. Arabs rather than Jews). Also, pre-1948 "Palestinian" would have referred to both Jews and Arabs, whereas this is specifically referring to Arabs (see e.g. List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus). Number 57 11:50, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
    • Well, for one thing; we should never use Wikipedia as a source. (So the title of List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus is really irrelevant (Actually, thanks for reminding me: it should probably be changed)). And as mentioned above, the only time "Palestinian village" was used about Jewish villages, was back in Byzantine times, while what we are talking about is the 1948 depopulated villages. Huldra (talk) 12:27, 14 January 2017 (UTC)