Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes

Pictures in election infoboxes

The manual currently says that, "Infoboxes may also include an image, and/ or a map." However, many election article infoboxes include up to 10 images, e.g. Irish general election, 2016 with 9 headshots (although 2 missing) + a map. Personally, I think this produces an unwieldy, overly large result and I prefer the legislative election infobox, e.g. Montenegrin parliamentary election, 2012, but that is currently less commonly used.

I also note that most election article infoboxes use a flag icon, although the manual says these should be avoided.

These are longstanding issues, but have come to mind with the forthcoming UK election and discussion here: Talk:Next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Infobox_consensus_2017. I wondered if the broader community here had any thoughts about election article infoboxes. Bondegezou (talk) 12:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion I think that one of the purposes of the infobox is to show the most important information concisely, therefore the large infoboxes like in the former are appropriate if the article is long. However if the article is short then the smaller infobox like in the latter should be used. I think we need to establish a threshold for inclusion thought, rather than blindly putting in every candidate. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

The idea of some sort of threshold is perhaps better left to the elections WikiProject, but some guidance of how WP:INFOBOX applies would be valuable.

I am, myself, wary of the idea of a threshold, it risks creating a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS when we should stick to basic policy. However, a while back, I looked at what the infobox did for the most recent election article in every European country. There was no standard approach to inclusion, but 31 articles included every party who won a seat, 16 included a smaller number of parties than won seats, and 3 included every party who won a seat plus one who didn't. That suggests to me that the best threshold is "every party that won a seat". Bondegezou (talk) 13:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

There is, as you can see here strong opposition to not using flag icons. How do we tackle that? Push to remove them as per guidance here, or re-write guidance to add some exceptions? Bondegezou (talk) 14:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I think we should leave out the flag if you are referring to the UK flag, as it is merely a UK election and not international. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:09, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

On the topic of flag icons, I've started a discussion at Template talk:Infobox election#Flag icon. Bondegezou (talk) 13:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Enhanced Infoboxes and Better Search

• How do we request new infoboxes and improved infoboxes?
• How do we request a better and more searchable index for finding infoboxes appropriate for the Wikipedia articles we are developing?
• My most frequently-started and frequently-developed articles are (a) university faculty, (b) journalists, (c) scientists, (d) thought leaders, including philosophers and other intellectual leaders, and (e) politicians and elected officials. MaynardClark (talk) 03:33, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

I responded to this on my talk page. — JJMC89 (T·C) 04:25, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Just adding a comment- this is a problem for our newusers, particular those who are experts in their own field. The information is there but finding it takes far too long- and when you do there is too much of it. Two decades into the Wikipedia project, we need to focus on the needs of the actual user- (and the trainer) not on just how clever we have been in the past. A little bit of artificial intelligence could work wonders here. ClemRutter (talk) 09:14, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Pre-RfC: Flag icons in infoboxes

Per "Avoid flag icons." (WP:INFOBOXUSE) and "Flag icons should not be used in infoboxes" (WP:INFOBOXFLAG), I am considering removing flag items from a large number of infoboxes such as Notre-Dame de Paris, United States Navy SEALs, and Iberian Peninsula. I asked about this at Template talk:Infobox#Flag icons in infoboxes and it was pointed out that {{Infobox settlement}} has a section for adding flags. It was suggested that I post an RfC here. The reason this is a pre-RfC and not an RfC is because I want to first gather all existing policies, guidelines and RfCs, and from that information decide exactly what to ask in the RfC (if one is needed). Comments?? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Avoid red links

I made this change and was reverted by UnitedStatesian here. To just say "Avoid red links" is misleading because WP:NAV, the inspiration for the bullet points, says, "Red links should normally be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles." What I wrote is similar to what WP:NAV says. Otherwise the impression is that we should never have red links in infoboxes, for which there is no basis. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 23:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I think there is a material difference between "plausibly" and "very likely." I would be fine with a change to language identical to the current language of WP:NAV. UnitedStatesian (talk) 23:27, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

It is more accurately tied to WP:REDLINK, which says, "In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article..." Perhaps WP:NAV needs to be in line with that as well. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 23:33, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Nope. There is a difference between articles and navigation boxes. Navigation boxes exist for navigation, and redlinks cannot be used for navigation. That is the reason for the treatment that is different from redlinks in articles. UnitedStatesian (talk) 23:59, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Infoboxes should match the article approach more than the navigation-box approach. An infobox will have details regardless of being linked or not. I agree that a more nuanced approach is appropriate for navigation boxes due your stated reason, but it does not apply here. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 01:16, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't red links be avoid in infoboxes entirely, given they summarise the article and so the red link should already be in the body? I always think red links in an infobox look really messy because of the density of information. Rob984 (talk) 09:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Rob984 is right and like coffee to hot warnings perhaps we should mention this obvious fact in this MoS.--Moxy (talk) 18:13, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Red links looking "really messy" is not an excuse not to include them. Nothing in WP:REDLINK denies red links in infoboxes. In addition, not every single thing in an infobox will be in the article body. For the film infobox, there are some credits that do not get mentioned in the body. For example, a film editor who won awards (for other films, not this hypothetical one) should get a red link in the infobox. Blue links are allowed in infoboxes anyway despite the summary/in-the-body excuse. Actually, MOS:DUPLINK supports repeating links in infoboxes, with no discerning between blue or red. Do we need to launch an RfC about this? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:12, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I think Erik is right here. Infoboxes should match the article approach more than the navigation-box approach. Bondegezou (talk) 13:55, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Erik is correct our guide allows them as per WP:SIDEBAR....but in-general they are discouraged. No one should be removing them just because there red.....but on the other hand they should not sit there indefinitely. So a case by case approach is best.--Moxy (talk) 14:52, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Red links looking "really messy" is not an excuse not to include them.

Yes it is. See WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. It doesn't explicitly exclude unnecessary links, but I think this clearly contravenes the principal of "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose" and "[excluding] any unnecessary content". The more illegible, cluttered, and messy an infobox becomes, the more useless it is.

For example, a film editor who won awards (for other films, not this hypothetical one) should get a red link in the infobox.

If there are already red links elsewhere on Wikipedia, one does not need to be placed in the infobox of an article which it lacks significant relevance to. If the only place for a link on Wikipedia is in an infobox, it isn't notable.

Blue links are allowed in infoboxes anyway despite the summary/in-the-body excuse.

To the reader, relevant blue links are helpful and not obnoxious. Red links are the opposite. Granted this is the same for the body of the article, but the difference is that the body's main purpose isn't to "[allow] readers to identify key facts at a glance".

Frankly, my view is that red links should be in article bodies and—where necessary—in navboxes, but rarely—if ever—in an infobox.

Rob984 (talk) 15:03, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't see the value of placing red links in infoboxes. The whole point of red-linking an item is encourage editors to write an article on a notable topic, and red links allow an editor to gauge the demand for such an article. Since an infobox is duplicating information already in the article body and lead, the item will already have a red link in that article, so putting another in the infobox serves no purpose. Blue links in infoboxes are useful because they give a reader a chance to follow them to a topic they may be interested in. Red links provide no such opportunity for the reader, and merely distract from the more valuable links – why do you think we give the guidance in WP:OVERLINK only to link the most valuable items and not dilute them in a sea of blue? That advice goes double for red links. The only reasonable excuse for a red link in a navbox or an infobox is that the editor is about to create an article on that notable topic and turn the red link blue. Other than in that (temporary) situation, there's no justification for red links outside of article text at all. --RexxS (talk) 21:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Rob984, WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE has nothing at all to do with links, so it is not a reason to exclude red links. Your response about not linking to the film editor contravenes WP:REDLINK in every sense of the guideline. You are saying we should not link to an obviously-notable film editor at all in any Wikipedia article's infobox even though per WP:REDLINK that could be an opportunity for any editor to soon come by and create an article. Lastly, saying that readers find red links "obnoxious" is irrelevant. Red links are very much part of Wikipedia. RexxS, as stated before, an infobox does not necessarily repeat everything shown somewhere in the article body, and even if it was a "duplicate", it could easily appear much later, effectively making the more upfront red link the "main" one and thus more actionable. WP:OVERLINK allows for links to be repeated in infoboxes. There's no advice going "double" for red links. Since the feedback is mixed, I'll launch an RfC shortly. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:31, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I'd welcome a RfC to see what others think. I feel like you're just citing policies and not really considering my points about the unique nature of infoboxes. Principally, this guideline states "Avoid red links", and I don't think this is because of a misunderstand of other guidelines and policies. Infoboxes are also very much a part of Wikipedia, and their specific aims and goals should not be ignored. Also, articles should be complete without the infobox, and editors who only look at an article's infobox probably aren't likely to be expanding coverage on related topics (so the number of missed opportunities will be minimal). Rob984 (talk) 13:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Red links in infoboxes

Currently, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes says of red links, "Like navigation templates, infoboxes should... Avoid red links. For more information, see WP:REDLINK and WP:REDNOT." Wikipedia:Navigation template says of red links, "Red links should normally be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles. Red links can be retained in navigation templates that represent a well-defined and complete set of data (geographic divisions, annual events, filmographies, etc.), where deleting red links would leave an incomplete and misleading result. Even then, editors are encouraged to write the article first." Should MOS:INFOBOX tell editors to avoid adding red links at all to infoboxes? Should it tell editors to avoid red links under certain conditions or to add them under certain conditions? WP:REDLINK outlines Wikipedia's overall editing guideline in regard to red links. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:42, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Survey

• Allow red links in infoboxes like in the article body, and follow WP:REDLINK in only being used when it could "plausibly sustain an article". See my discussion comment below. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:42, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

MOS:INFOBOX is extremist in its language banning all red links where it could easily copy the inspiring navigation template guideline's language, "Red links should normally be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles." Furthermore, linking in infoboxes should be more lenient than linking in navigation templates because the infoboxes will list the pertinent topic details regardless of whether or not linking is involved. Per WP:OVERLINK, the infobox can repeat (blue) links in the article body. A red link should also exist to become blue. There should not be any exclusionary treatment (especially rooted in complaining about how it looks, which has zero merit) that requires an infobox's term to be linked only after the article is created. When a bold editor creates an article, all pertinent red links in the appropriate places (such as the infobox) should exist to be "activated" as if there was always an article all this time. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:42, 19 July 2017 (UTC)