Talk:Erich Hoepner: Difference between revisions
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The immediate relationship was the close cooperation between Panzer Group 4 and Einsatzgruppe A. I'm not sure what "biographical notability" is, but this material is certainly relevant to Hoepner's bio. This objection reminds me of the discussion at [[Talk:Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb#Leeb and Einsatzgruppe A]], which I could not understand there either. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 23:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC) |
The immediate relationship was the close cooperation between Panzer Group 4 and Einsatzgruppe A. I'm not sure what "biographical notability" is, but this material is certainly relevant to Hoepner's bio. This objection reminds me of the discussion at [[Talk:Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb#Leeb and Einsatzgruppe A]], which I could not understand there either. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 23:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:All of which is fine as there isn't any real debate on the nature of the war in the east as propagandized by the regime. What all the provided references fail to provide is an actual tie between the assertion made in the article and Hoepner himself. To connect that many dots is [[WP:SYN|synthesis]] on your part. To include the aforementioned sections requires reliable sources actually making that assertion. To simply lump in Hoepner with broad brush is not biographically relevant nor appropriate for Wikipedia. The discussion of on-the-ground cooperation between individuals of the Einsatzgruppe assigned to the same area of operations of Panzer Group 4 and individual elements of that Group fails to make a substantive biographical connection. [[User:LargelyRecyclable|LargelyRecyclable]] ([[User talk:LargelyRecyclable|talk]]) 09:49, 21 February 2018 (UTC) |
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{{Talk:Erich Hoepner/GA1}} |
{{Talk:Erich Hoepner/GA1}} |
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Hoepner's presence at Bendlerblock
It doesn't make sense! Hoepner couldn't have been present at the Bendlerblock that night of 20th July 1944, otherwise he would've been shot on the spot. It wasn't in Fromm's best interest to let somebody survive because they knew about his passive involvment. --89.177.43.141 (talk) 18:10, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
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CE
Did a long CE then got an edit conflict so apols. RV as desired. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 18:38, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- Sorted out a few sfn errors.Keith-264 (talk) 19:25, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Eastern Front
I did a partial revert of the new material; I kept "Early life" and up to the Army Group North. I also kept the new material on Hoepner's role in the 20 July plot. I'm preserving the material here by providing this link.
The concerns are primarily about the tone and sources in the Barbarossa section. I would not use Mitcham for the operational matters on the Eastern Front or for his interpretations of the general's thinking. More on that below. David Stahel's excellent work is only cited twice, although he covers Hoepner and Panzer Group 4 in some detail: [1]. My reading of these sources suggests a different picture from what was added to the article, i.e. the nature of Kluge-Hoepner disputes or that the entire Panzer Group 4 reached within 20 km of Moscow, as the lead seemed to imply. It likely was strung out by a hundred kilometres; see Stahel's lecture on YouTube that explains the general situation of the German advance: [2]. The second citation to Stahel appears to have the wrong page, as p. 326 does not contain the material being cited to it.
Circumstances around Hoepner's retreat order is more nuanced than what's presented: Richard J. Evans writes that Hoepner requested permission from Kluge, who advised that he'd discuss with Hilter and "ordered Hoepner to prepare for immediate retreat". Assuming that Hitler's permission was on the way and not wanting to risk the matter any longer, Hoepner ordered his troops to withdraw. When Kluge found out, he was "appalled and terrified at what Hilter might think" and immediately reported Hoepner, causing Hitler's fury. [3]
On Mitcham: He received a pretty scathing review for another work on the Eastern front, The German Defeat in the East, 1944-1945; excerpt from the Journal of Slavic Military Studies:
- It is no longer possible to write an acceptable history of the Eastern Front which relies solely upon German sources or obsolete interpretations from the Cold War era. (...) [The book] is of no use to specialists [and should] be avoided by non-specialists. (I can provide the review to anyone interested.)
Some other changes, i.e. to the lead and body, were unjustified, in my view, such as taking out the quote to Hoepner's order from 2 May 1941. This order is widely cited in the literature on Barbarossa and definitely belongs in the article. Another minor, point was the decorative icons in the infobox; please see MOS:ICONDECORATION. Listing the entire awards section in the infobox is not the common practice either, as infoboxes are generally reserved for the highest awards. I restored the prior awards section.
I have Stahel on hand, so I'll look for additional material to add to the article in the next week or so. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:57, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- I made further revisions; pls see diff.
- Amber Books looks to be a small-time, militaria publisher, and Mann seems to be retelling what's in Sydnor anyway.
- Zabecki p. 615 is a brief entry on Hoepner; it does not discuss “700 Soviet tanks” or “within 11 km to Leningrad”: [4]
- I searched for [hoepner 700 tanks] and [4th Panzer Group 700 tanks] but have not found anything immediately apparent. I revised to match the source and replaced "700 tanks" with a general citation about Army Group North from Glantz. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Recent edit
I've elaborated on the changes to the article immediately above. I was not able to confirm some of the materials previously present in the article (700 tanks, etc).
I have questions about some of the recent edits: diff. For example, the quote from Hoepner's order was removed with the edit summary: "Totally lacking a reference. Page number needed...". The reference was indeed provided for Hoepner's quote, including a page number:
- ...Every military action must be guided in planning and execution by an iron will to exterminate the enemy mercilessly and totally. In particular, no adherents of the present Russian-Bolshevik system are to be spared.[1]
References
- ^ Burleigh 1997, p. 76.
For context, please see: Crimes of State Past and Present: Government-Sponsored Atrocities and and International Legal Responses edited by David M. Crowe:
- "On 30 March 1941, Hitler told his senior military commanders that he "wanted to see the impending war against the Soviet Union (...) as a war of extermination (...). Many Wehrmacht leaders...." Hoepner's quote follows.
Same in Burleigh who is cited in the article, but from a different book The Third Reich: A New History:
- "These [pre-Barbarossa] orders fed down the chain by senior commanding officers several of whom unreflectively elided Jews with Bolshevism. Thus, on 2 May 1941, General Erich Hoepner..." His quote follows.
A number of other sources make the same connection between the plans for the war of extermination and Hoepner's directive:
- "Many field commanders immediately echoed this in their own preinvasion directives. General Hoepner (...) advised his troops... In Hitler's Empire: How the Nazis Ruled Europe by Mark Mazower.
- "Another general who justified the coming was on the same grounds as Hitler was General Erich Hoepner..." The same quote follows. In The Policies of Genocide edited by Gerhard Hirschfeld. Etc.
I'm not sure what the objection is.
The following edit summary likewise lacks clarity: "No biographical notability asserted. What's the immediate relationship?". The material removed was:
- The staff and detachments 2 and 3 of Einsatzgruppe A, one of the mobile killing squads following the Wehrmacht into the occupied Soviet Union, were brought up to the Luga district with assistance from the army. "The movement of Einsatzgruppe A—which the army intended to use in Leningrad—was effected in agreement with Panzer Group 4 and at their express wish," noted Franz Walter Stahlecker, the commander of Einsatzgruppe A.[1] Stahlecker described Wehrmacht's cooperation as "generally very good," and "in certain cases, as for example, with Panzer Group 4 under the command of General Hoepner, extremely close, one might say even warm."[2] (emphasis mine).
References
- ^ Jones 2008, p. 35.
- ^ Stahel 2015, p. 37.
The immediate relationship was the close cooperation between Panzer Group 4 and Einsatzgruppe A. I'm not sure what "biographical notability" is, but this material is certainly relevant to Hoepner's bio. This objection reminds me of the discussion at Talk:Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb#Leeb and Einsatzgruppe A, which I could not understand there either. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
- All of which is fine as there isn't any real debate on the nature of the war in the east as propagandized by the regime. What all the provided references fail to provide is an actual tie between the assertion made in the article and Hoepner himself. To connect that many dots is synthesis on your part. To include the aforementioned sections requires reliable sources actually making that assertion. To simply lump in Hoepner with broad brush is not biographically relevant nor appropriate for Wikipedia. The discussion of on-the-ground cooperation between individuals of the Einsatzgruppe assigned to the same area of operations of Panzer Group 4 and individual elements of that Group fails to make a substantive biographical connection. LargelyRecyclable (talk) 09:49, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
GA Review
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Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Erich Hoepner/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Euryalus (talk · contribs) 02:23, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'm looking forward to the review. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:35, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, sorry for slight delay - having a busy day. -- Euryalus (talk) 01:44, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I have some comments:
- Text
- Suggest using his full name in the first sentence
- "the son of General Kurt Hoepner" He was the son of Generaloberst Dr Kurt Hoepner (1858-1925). His father was a physician.
- Why not mention his mother, Elisabeth Auguste née Kienast? Or his siblings?
- Should Rittmeister be italicised? And Totenkopf?
- Link Sudetenland Crisis
- "Upon his rival Heinz Guderian's assumption of command of the XIX Corps; Hoepner replaced him as the commander of the XVI Army Corps" Replace the semicolon with a comma. Are we going with "Corps" or "Army Corps"? Pick one. (The former is the usual form in English; Armee Korps is German)
- Why not link to the German version XIX Corps ?
- Operation Barbarossa is linked twice.
- The navbox says he cassumed command of the 4th Panzer Group on 15 February 1941
- " Such "blinkered thinking" on Hoepner's part was common among the German commanders, which in Stahel's opinion "even before it began, made little practical sense"" Even before what began?
- "Panzer Group 3" and "Panzer Group 2" should be "3rd Panzer Group" and "2nd Panzer Group" for consistency.
- The last part is the first time you mention his wife Irma née Gebauer, daughter Ingrid and son Felbert, but do not name them
- He still has streets named after him
- Typos
- "Hoepner's Panzer group" should be "Hoepner's panzer group"
- "promoted to the rank of Generalmajor" should be "generalmajor"
- "Panzer unit" should be "panzer unit"
- "the rank of Generaloberst" should be "generaloberst"
- "The 4th Panzer group headed" should be "The 4th Panzer Group headed"
- "the 4th Panzer Group group" should be "4th Panzer Group"
- "air corp" should be "air corps"
- "Hoepner pursued a policy of scorched earth, demanding "ruthless and complete destruction of the enemy."" It is in the source, but that's not what scorched earth means.
- " the south flank of the 4th army" should be " the south flank of the 4th Army"
Thanks for the feedback. Some comments:
- Text
- Suggest using his full name... --> "Erich Hoepner" is the full name in the sources that I used; sample: [5]
- "the son of General Kurt Hoepner" He was the son of Generaloberst Dr Kurt Hoepner (1858-1925). His father was a physician. --> don't have this detail in the source used; seems fine.
- The last part is the first time you mention his wife Irma née Gebauer, daughter Ingrid and son Felbert, but do not name them --> Sources I used do no discuss his mother or siblings.
- Should Rittmeister be italicised? And Totenkopf? --> It's a matter of style; I prefer to avoid italics. "Totenkopf" is a proper name in this context, not a foreign word, for example.
- Link Sudetenland Crisis --> fixed
- "Upon his rival Heinz Guderian's assumption of command of the XIX Corps; Hoepner replaced him as the commander of the XVI Army Corps" Replace the semicolon with a comma. Are we going with "Corps" or "Army Corps"? Pick one. (The former is the usual form in English; Armee Korps is German) --> "Army Corps" and "army corps" is common in English-language sources; sample.
- Why not link to the German version XIX Corps ? --> fixed
- Operation Barbarossa is linked twice. --> fixed
- The navbox says he cassumed command of the 4th Panzer Group on 15 February 1941 --> it appears that Hoepner was already commander of PG 4 on 15 Feb 1941, as per this source: [6]; it's possible that he "reported" to CinC on the same day as his appointment (?). Mitcham says "17 Feb": [7]. In any case, he was appointed at some point around February 1941; I don't think it's critical to note exactly when. I've changed the date in the command box to February 1941.
- " Such "blinkered thinking" on Hoepner's part was common among the German commanders, which in Stahel's opinion "even before it began, made little practical sense"" Even before what began? --> fixed
- "Panzer Group 3" and "Panzer Group 2" should be "3rd Panzer Group" and "2nd Panzer Group" for consistency. --> fixed, apart when appears in direct quotes
- The last part is the first time you mention his wife Irma née Gebauer, daughter Ingrid and son Felbert, but do not name them --> The relatives are non-notable, so I don't feel that the article needs to name them.
- He still has streets named after him --> I'm only seeing primary sources for "erich-hoepner-straße"; this does not appear to have been noted by secondary sources.
- Typos
- "Hoepner's Panzer group" should be "Hoepner's panzer group" --> fixed
- "promoted to the rank of Generalmajor" should be "generalmajor" --> I prefer capitalisation, as in the sources I used; sample: [8]
- "Panzer unit" should be "panzer unit" --> replaced with "armoured unit"
- "the rank of Generaloberst" should be "generaloberst" --> prefer capitalisation; pls see #2 above
- "The 4th Panzer group headed" should be "The 4th Panzer Group headed" --> fixed
- "the 4th Panzer Group group" should be "4th Panzer Group" --> fixed
- "air corp" should be "air corps" --> fixed
- "Hoepner pursued a policy of scorched earth, demanding "ruthless and complete destruction of the enemy."" It is in the source, but that's not what scorched earth means. --> fixed
- " the south flank of the 4th army" should be " the south flank of the 4th Army" --> fixed
I've implemented various changes as noted above. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:59, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Suggestions
A few more in addition to Hawkeye7's excellent response:
- Should the lead include a clasue explaining the Commissar Order? Might be helpful to the casual reader to explain what it was.
- “ending the war as a cavalry officer” – as opposed to a staff officer? On first reading I thought the emphasis here was on the word “officer” and was puzzled as to why we were saying this as he was a lieutenant as long ago as 1906. Not a critical issue, but worth considering if it's clearer to say something like “ending the war as a member of the cavalry” or "ending the war as part of a cavalry unit."
- Interwar period: Is the link to “Generalmajor of the Wehrmacht” correct given this is a Weimar rank?
- “an early Panzer unit that was…” – can we say “an early tank unit that was ..” to avoid using Panzer twice in the same sentence? Or is that too general?
- As with "Commissar Order, is it possible to add a couple of words on the Blomberg-Fritsch Affair, as readers won't imemdiately know what this is
None of the above are critical issues (except maybe the generalmajor link, if its inaccurate), just suggestions to improve comprehension for non-expert readers like myself. Will have a few more a little later. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:03, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
- Added.
- Modified to just state that he ended in the cavalry. I believe the relevance here is that the early proponents of mechanised and armoured warfare were often officers from the cavalry.
- Generalmajor: the same rank system (pretty much) was used in the Reichwehr and the Wehrmacht, so I don't think this needs to change.
- Modified.
- Added.
K.e.coffman (talk) 01:32, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
Last comments:
- Would remove “criminal” before Commissar order because it sounds as if that is Wikipedia’s voice, and also duplicates the end of that sentence re contravening laws of war. (btw would be good to clarify what we mean by “laws of war’ – ie what convention or international agreement set these laws in this instance). Alternatively, we would need a specific source for “criminal” as it has a particular meaning beyond violation of a convention – criminal under what national or international law?
- Given the significance of the Commissar Order in this biography (mentioned in detail here and in the lead) it would be good if there was more on why Hoepner acted this way – did he feel it was justified? Was he “just following orders” (unusual for someone previously indicated to be opposed to SS-style butchery); was he a fervent anti-Communist? Not critical to include this, as its obviously limited by the sources and this is a GA review not an FA. Just flagging it as something that occurred to me a point of interest in reading the article.
- Last sentence of paragraph two – should there be a “However” before “the army group defeated the defending …”? Otherwise we have the German advance halted at Luga and then suddenly the Germans winning the wider contest.
- Do we know what happened to his family after the war?
- Overall, this is a comprehensive summary of Hoepner’s military career, with some interesting additions and quotes on his views and interpretations of different stages of activity. It would have been good to have a bit more about the nam as an individual (ie not just a soldier), and some further background on his early life. But we’re obviously limited by the sources we have, which seem fairly comprehensively reviewed.
Views welcome on the largely trivial additions above. Also made some minor changes directly to the article, let me know if these seem unsuitable. -- Euryalus (talk) 06:49, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
Comments:
- Commissar order: This and other pre-Barbarossa orders are described as "criminal orders" in literature: Criminal Orders, in Hitler's Wehrmacht, 1935-1945 by Rolf-Dieter Müller and same in From World War to Waldheim by Richard Mitten. Or same in Nazi Policy on the Eastern Front, 1941: Total War, Genocide, and Radicalization by Felix Römer. The killing of the Red Army political officers is described as "murder", i.e. Rutherford on Quinkert, 'Propaganda und Terror in Weißrußland 1941-1944'. A number of Wehrmacht generals were convicted for drafting, transmitting or approving the order, so "criminal" is a neutral descriptor in this case. However, it's indeed redundant, so I've moved it.
- Hoepner's stance: His thinking, i.e. "no adherents of the present Russian-Bolshevik system are to be spared", was closely aligned with that of Hitler in terms of the "war of extermination". Many authors have made this connection; see additional examples in: Talk:Erich_Hoepner#Recent_edit. I believe it's covered in the section Erich Hoepner#War against the Soviet Union:
- [Hoepner's May 1941] order was transmitted to the troops on Hoepner's initiative, ahead of the official OKW (Wehrmacht High Command) directives that laid the groundwork for the war of extermination, such as the Barbarossa Decree of 13 May 1941. The order predates the first OKH (Army High Command) draft of the Commissar Order.[1] Jürgen Förster wrote that Hoepner's directive represented an "independent transformation of Hitler's ideological intentions into an order" and illustrated a "degree of conformity or affinity" between Hitler and military leadership, which provided a sufficient basis for collaboration in the aims of conquest and annihilation against a perceived threat from the Soviet Union.[1]
- Did this not come across in the flow of the article? In any case, all corps-level units and ~90% of divisions implemented the order, so it was not extraordinary and was perhaps viewed as a "necessity". Although it's somewhat incongruent with Hoepner's behaviour on the Western Front, as you point out. Interesting observations here from the Rutherford review (abridged):
- The commissars occupied a special place in this propaganda. One [Wehrmacht] position paper from 1935 suggested the use of the following slogans to be directed towards Soviet conscripts: "Turn your bayonets around and fight with us against the damned Jewish commissars" (p. 47). Already, six years before the Commissar Order was drafted and distributed to the Ostheer, commissars had been targeted for death by at least one section of the German army.
- According to Quinkert, this line of thinking directly led to the formulation and implementation of the Commissar Order. The political and military leadership believed that murder of Soviet commissars would both destabilize the Red Army and ensure a far easier occupation of the eastern territories, as no one would lead civilian resistance in the rear areas. In other words, the murder of Soviet commissars was understood as what Quinkert describes as a "preventative defensive strategy against the guerrilla war [Kleinkrieg] in the rear area" (p. 59). While her claim that that the German military carried out this order not merely for ideological reasons, but also for "independent pragmatic motives" is not entirely novel, it is certainly convincing and it provides evidence of a German army prepared to contravene the established rules of war long before the opening of Operation Barbarossa.
- Fixed.
- Family: I don't know; sources do not mention that. I assume that they were released / liberated.
References
- ^ a b Förster 1998, pp. 519–521.
K.e.coffman (talk) 01:08, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Checklist
- It is reasonably well written.
- It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (reference section):
b (citations to reliable sources):
c (OR):
d (copyvio and plagiarism):
- Not entirely convinced re the wikilink of Hopner's Weimar rank to a page for the equivalent Reich one; but not enough to hold up a GA review.
- a (reference section):
- It is broad in its coverage.
- a (major aspects):
b (focused):
- Fine for the purposes of GA, as a summary of Hoepner the soldier. Would need more on Hoepner the person to meet this equivalent criteria in A or FA review. COuld sometimes do with more context about why he adopted certain military strategies, though I note a) the reality that for controversial figures the need for scrupulous accuracy can sometimes lead to a less enlightening article; and b) some apparent limitations in the sources.
- a (major aspects):
- It follows the neutral point of view policy.
- Fair representation without bias:
- Fair representation without bias:
- It is stable.
- No edit wars, etc.:
- No edit wars, etc.:
- It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):
b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):
- Overall:
- Pass/Fail:
- A detailed summary of the military figure, with some interesting background elements. Thanks to Hawkeye7 for the comments above.-- Euryalus (talk) 02:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Pass/Fail:
Ravensbrück sentence
"His wife, daughter, son, sister and brother were sent to Ravensbrück concentration camp." Cannot be correct, this camp was for women; please revise per RS source. Kierzek (talk) 23:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing this out; I made the revision with this edit. Sources: Family Punishment in Nazi Germany: Sippenhaft, Terror and Myth by Robert Loeffel (already in use in the article) & Ravensbruck: Life and Death in Hitler's Concentration Camp for Women by Sarah Helm. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:57, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Substantial biographical disruption
Recent edits have created large holes in Hoepner's activities prior to his transfer to the Moscow front. Additionally, the context for his movement on the Eastern Front have been removed. Why? Justifications on the Talk page seem lacking. LargelyRecyclable (talk) 09:05, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
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