Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

Unofficial anagram of the Manual of Style

MOS:ORDINAL

G'day, there has been a perennial discussion over at WikiProject Military history about the US Government style convention regarding dropping the n and r from ordinal indicators. Thus, we have the 2d Bomb Group rather than the 2nd Bomb Group, same deal for 3d. I tried to find a discussion of this in the archives here, but drew a blank. MOS:ORDINAL seems to indicate (by example) that the convention on WP is to keep the r, but the purpose of that first bullet point seems to be more about superscription rather than mandating a particular approach to ordinal indicators. Can anyone tell us if there has been a discussion about this in the past and point us at it so we can tweak our style guidelines based on any consensus? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:34, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

I do not recall a discussion here regarding a choice between "2nd" and "2d". For what it's worth, I see zero benefit in dropping the "n"r "n". Dondervogel 2 (talk) 08:22, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

You see zero benefit in dropping what? EEng 08:29, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Like Dondervogel 2 said, the "n" of "2nd" → "2d"; the "r" of "3rd" → "3d". --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:14, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

He referred to dropping the "n"r. What's the "n"r ? EEng 09:17, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Why not drop both? That's what the British Army do. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:25, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

You risk confusing and alienating half of your audience to save a single character? Not all the readers will know the ins and outs of number formatting systems for specific countries. For myself, I have never seen 2d and 3d before, except as English money from 50 years ago.  Stepho  talk  09:30, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

D-day was 15 February 1971, so not quite 50 years. Please stop making me feel older than I am! ;-) More seriously though, 2d and 3d read as numbers of dimensions as in "3d printer". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:26, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Er ... shouldn't that be P-day?!? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:07, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

"D-day", short for "decimalisation day", was the term used at the time. I was there. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:46, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you for explaining. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 19:51, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Can the discussion be kept at one place please?Nigel Ish (talk) 10:32, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

What are you referring to Nigel? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:52, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

The discussion on the Milhistory talk page is here. If the discussion is kept in one place then there is more chance of coming to a definitive conclusion that won't be subject to future challenge.Nigel Ish (talk) 11:10, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

@Nigel Ish: We didn't know that there was an ongoing discussion. Peacemaker67 merely said "there has been a perennial discussion over at WikiProject Military history", which implies that there have been several discussions in the past, perhaps many of them, that had not been resolved. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:44, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps I should have mentioned that at the outset, but if you look at my query, it was about whether there had been any previous discussion here that might inform consensus at Milhist. It seems unlikely from the above that this issue has come up here before, so of course you are all welcome to chime in at Milhist following the link Nigel provided. Thanks for those who have responded thus far. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:42, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Specific mosnum proposal

The discussion has continued at the WP project Military History but we find ourselves in need of guidance from MOSNUM, closely related to Peacemaker67's original question. To resolve the impasse I propose adding the following clarification at MOSNUM. "The two letter ordinals 1st 2nd, 3rd, 4th ... are used, not 1t, 2d, 4h or any other one letter abbreviation of these". Any objection? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I don't think there is any usage of 1t or 4t in the US Govt style guide, just 2d and 3d. But I think something like this is needed. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:58, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

The Wikipedia "Manual of Style" does not purport to be a complete manual of style. Complete manuals of style such as The Chicago Manual of Style contain several hundred pages. I see no need to address the point about whether to prefer 2nd over 2d and 3rd over 3d. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:08, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

But where manuals of style conflict, isn't it useful for Wikipedia to choose a consistent house style to avoid different ones being used? Particularly where article titles are concerned? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:12, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Here's my standard blurb on this:

It is an axiom of mine that something belongs in MOS only if (as a necessary, but not sufficient test) either:

• 1. There is a manifest a priori need for project-wide consistency (e.g. "professional look" issues such as consistent typography, layout, etc. -- things which, if inconsistent, would be noticeably annoying, or confusing, to many readers); OR 
• 2. Editor time has, and continues to be, spent litigating the same issue over and over on numerous articles, either

• (a) with generally the same result (so we might as well just memorialize that result, and save all the future arguing), or
• (b) with different results in different cases, but with reason to believe the differences are arbitrary, and not worth all the arguing -- a final decision on one arbitrary choice, though an intrusion on the general principle that decisions on each article should be made on the Talk page of that article, is worth making in light of the large amount of editor time saved.

I don't think (1) applies. Is there evidence of 2A or 2B? EEng 01:55, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable position. Other than the current discussion at WT:MILHIST here, about USAF squadrons, there has been discussion here, on a USAF bomber wing page, here on a US Army infantry regiment page, here on a Milhist task force talk page as far back as 2006..., and multiple times on WT:MILHIST here, here, and here and many more I'm sure. It most often comes up regarding USAF squadrons, but also for other branches like US Army. So far as I can see, 2(a) doesn't apply, as there isn't general agreement (as evidenced in the current discussion at WT:MILHIST), but 2(b) may apply as there has been a lot of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS happening with it, where editors that favour one approach to the other move pages to suit their take on it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:44, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

I should add that for 2(b) the differences aren't arbitrary, editors have valid reasons for arguing the toss over it, essentially "official title" vs. version resulting in least astonishment for the casual reader. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:00, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

I think (1) does apply. When I see 2d Airlift Squadron and 33rd Fighter Wing my initial reaction is to assume "2d" stands for something other than "2nd", but without understanding what that something other might be. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:15, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

There is also Talk:132nd Fighter Wing which has a RM discussion of a number of articles. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:39, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Would it be fair to say that there isn't really an appetite for this to be formalised in the MOS? If so, no dramas, we'll just work on a local solution for Milhist articles. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:35, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Are there diffs you can give us of this being an issue on actual articles? EEng 05:41, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Well, there's these on 2d Bomb Wing [1] [2], these on 3rd U.S. Infantry Regiment [3] [4], and these on 3d Airlift Squadron [5] and 3d Fighter Training Squadron [6] [7]. There are no doubt many more diffs that could be mined if necessary, but a lot of 2nd/2d and 3d/3rd articles I looked at had been moved at least once between the two types of ordinals. Pinging @Lineagegeek and Buckshot06: who seem to the the ones who are arguing for 2d and 3d being the preferred option for USAF at least (I hope I'm not verballing them here), as well as @WP:MILHIST coordinators: for more corporate memory of this issue within Milhist. I'll also post a message on WT:MILHIST to ensure visibility of this discussion. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:06, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

I tried fixing 2d Airlift Squadron and 33rd Fighter Wing to at least make them internally consistent. With the first I succeeded (if not reverted) but the second I gave up on. I suppose it could be renamed to 33d Fighter Wing but that would be unwise during the present debate, the whole point of which is to stop articles flipping from one (name) to the other. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 06:23, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Dondervogel 2, on the Project talk page, suggested, "mosnum should be updated by explicitly stating that '2nd' is preferred over '2d', even in cases where RS use '2d'". I would oppose that proposition in the strongest possible terms. Bad enough WP imposes a spacing standard to weapon calibers used nowhere else. Bad enough "commonname" over correct usage. Bad enough ill-informed pagemoves based on moscaps. Now this? Never. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 07:30, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Language like Never is WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Please tone it down. --Izno (talk) 14:20, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

I would prefer Peacemaker67's suggestion in the WP:MILHIST discussion "Perhaps we identify 2d and 3d as valid options for US units because it is standard US English, but don't mandate it, stating that the ordinal used should be what is most common in reliable sources on the individual unit?" In the meantime, I'd definitely oppose Dondervogel 2's suggestion to ignore WP:RS and WP:COMMON NAME (or make and exception to them) and always use 2nd and 3rd and suggest not exacerbating the issue by editing while the discussion goes on. --Lineagegeek (talk) 11:57, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Endorse LG's position. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:00, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Can we at least agree that articles should be internally consistent? For example, if an article title is 2d Airlift Squadron that it should not repeatedly refer to said unit as the "2nd Airlift Squadron", and vice versa? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 12:34, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

In vehicles "(officially named...)" or something similar is sometimes used with WP:COMMON NAME titles.Sammy D III (talk) 13:25, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Opinion: These should conform to the general reader's expectation, which is "2nd Airlift Squadron". --Izno (talk) 14:20, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

My impression/opinion is that:

1. The form of ordinals is not a matter of RS or common name but of style.
2. 2d and 3d appear peculiar to the US?
3. Are 2d and 3d the "norm" in the US or an accepted variation?

As a non-US user, 2d and 3d appear unclear. I perceive that 2nd and 3rd are broadly understood (given WP is global) but 2d 3d (1t and 4t) are not. IMO, matters of style that impact on accessibility globally should default to that which is universally understood (for the sake of our readers) and should disallow that which might be ambiguous or unclear. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 14:42, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

2d 3d can be US Army proper names. They are probably never used outside the military.Sammy D III (talk) 15:48, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: Sorry to disagree but I think 2d is very clear. It means tuppence. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 17:18, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Ah, yes, there is an argument from MOS:COMMONALITY. --Izno (talk) 15:19, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Joking aside, an anonymous editor at Project Military History made an ngram showing that while 22d and similar were common in the 19th century, that is no longer the case today, even in US English. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 17:30, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Just for clarity, there is no suggestion of 1t or 4t, just 2d and 3d. As Hawkeye7 has indicated at WT:MILHIST, US university style guides are apparently split on this issue. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:46, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a consensus that this is something the MOS needs to address. We will work on adding to our Milhist style guideline along the lines of "The use of the ordinals 2d and 3d instead of 2nd and 3rd are valid options for US units because they are used in standard US English, but their use is not mandated. The ordinal used in any given article should be what is most common in reliable sources on the individual unit, and articles should be internally consistent in the use of ordinals". Thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:18, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't really understand why that is the conclusion. There are three comments right above that say you shouldn't have these be options. MOS:COMMONALITY would be salient over your suggested option. --Izno (talk) 13:12, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. If the usual ordinal format English is deemed a 'valid option', it should be used per WP:COMMONALITY. There's no reason to use a specialist style if even the relevant sources in that topic area are conflicted about its use. RGloucester — ☎ 14:24, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

As the current proposal is for an addition to MILMOS, discussion should probably continue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:36, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree too. No one this side of the pond will read "2d" as an abbreviation of "Second". Best implemented as a clarification to MOSNUM though. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

It is preferable that consensus is achieved here for a MOS amendment to address this, rather than at Milhist, which would only be a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. It has been suggested (at Milhist) that @Dicklyon and SMcCandlish: might also have informed views on whether 2d and 3d are standard US English alternatives for 2nd and 3rd or not. I do not know what their views might be (in case anyone thinks this might be canvassing), and ping them purely to broaden the discussion about this issue and try to get a solid consensus one way or the other. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:04, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

More specifically, whether this reflects contemporary usage (with the same rider as PM). Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 00:13, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Those weirdo abbreviations need to be stamped out. Tony (talk) 00:17, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

• I have to confess that this American thought it was a British thing. The COMMONALITY argument is a strong one, but the fact that we're talking about proper names makes it not entirely simple. EEng 00:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Revised mosnum proposal

I agree proper nouns are a complicating issue. In the interests of finding some common ground can we put that (admittedly important) issue aside and consider this alternative proposal. "With the exception of proper nouns, the two letter ordinals 1st 2nd, 3rd, 4th ... are used, not 1t, 2d, 3d, 4h or any other one letter abbreviation of these". I realise that change leaves 2d Airlift Squadron unresolved but it would help us identify the stumbling block. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:16, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm a little frustrated that, despite it being pointed out several times, anyone is still suggesting that 1t and 4h are even involved here. This is about 2d and 3d, that's it. No-one has suggested 1t or 4h are a thing. Why would a proposal include versions that haven't even been floated? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

To me they all sound equally bizarre, but my purpose is not to frustrate. Better like this? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:52, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I also find them weird, but let's just focus on the issue at hand. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:18, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't really see a reason not to commit to the common styling entirely without some intermediate stage which sets the potential for wikilawyering a la "it was mentioned as being allowed in proper nouns, which means it's definitely something we should do". --Izno (talk) 11:58, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose – Again, this is a matter of style, not naming. Whether written as '2nd' or '2d', the reading and the meaning are the same ('second'), and therefore the integrity of any name that includes '2d' is not compromised by styling that '2d' as '2nd'. We should use the common styling. RGloucester — ☎ 21:26, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - still. It is a matter of style. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:20, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I think we should be mandating 2nd and 3rd across the board as a matter of style per the commonality argument. I know that this would disappoint the purists regarding official USAF squadron names, but I think we should go for the ordinal least likely to cause surprise to the casual reader. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:50, 23 October 2018 (UTC)