Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television

Discussion at Talk:2018 in American television#Split proposal

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:2018 in American television#Split proposal. Regarding a discussion to split one or more sections into standalone articles. TheDoctorWho (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2019 (UTC)Template:Z48

Gap in MOS:TVNOW

In the discussion around this edit to List of Doctor Who episodes (2005–present), it became clear that MOS:TVNOW is slightly lacking when it comes to fictional television series. Although the section is clear that "references to the show, and its characters and locations, should always be in the present tense", and that "some defunct non-fiction and live programs" may differ from this. This only implies how any participants in the production of a fiction programme (actors, writers, directors etc.) should be referred to, and also ignores previous participants in an ongoing non-fiction/live show (off the top of my head, Jeremy Clarkson's hosting of Top Gear). At the request for comment around this issue, Masem has quite justifiably advocated using the past tense when discussing the previous actors who have played the Doctor from a historical point of view. I believe these matters, that are not in any way unusual, should be covered in the guidelines to ensure consistency across the television WikiProject. U-Mos (talk) 04:31, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television#Discussion of two WP:BOLD edits at MOS:TVCAST

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television#Discussion of two WP:BOLD edits at MOS:TVCAST. U-Mos (talk) 08:27, 7 January 2019 (UTC)Template:Z48

Discussion

If anyonw is interested, please participate in the discussion over here: Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics#ITV Sources

MiaSays (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Manifest (TV series)#Initials

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Manifest (TV series)#Initials. — YoungForever^(talk) 14:27, 8 January 2019 (UTC)Template:Z48

Waterman

Please could an editor familiar with U.S. TV take a look at Template:Waterman Broadcasting Corporation? An IP editor has expanded it recently, and many of the stations listed there have no obvious connection to Waterman. Thanks, Certes (talk) 19:01, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

I've reverted to the March 2014 version – changes this massive require some kind of explanation. Also, the "new version" was much too massive to be useful as a navbox. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:31, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Infobox season discussion users might be interested in

There is currently a proposal up for discussion at Template talk:Infobox television season#Adjusting the header title that users might want to weigh in on. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:43, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Big Brother (Albanian TV series)#Requested move 14 January 2019

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Discussions at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 January 15

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The misuse of the term Television in relation to web videos that have never aired on television.

I happened to notice that the page title for the Netflix series A Series of Unfortunate Events claims that it is a TV series. Correct me if I am wrong here but the definition of "TV Series" is "a show that has been made for broadcasting on television" is it not? While Netflix and the show itself may constantly claim the show to be "streaming television" which here should mean "a TV show which is made available on (a) streaming video service(s), specifically those on the internet(as opposed to Cable Video on Demand, though the two are not mutually exclusive as some services provide internet-based Video on Demand directly from cable companies and broadcasters themselves)". If the show was made for, and exclusively streamed on Netflix, then how would it fit the definition of "TV Series" or "streaming television"?

As I was writing this for that show's talk page, I noticed while looking into the matter to be certain, that this site's own article on "television show" claims streaming video counts in the heading but fails to cite any sources. "Web television" also fails to mention the origin of the term or provide any sources for the term itself, mostly mentioning various web services claiming to be TV services, though it also mentions the International Academy of Web Television, which is an article rife with primary sources and a couple of articles that are specifically talking about the "Streamy Awards" which do not in any way validate their use of the term. Also, streaming media claims that the only websites that stream TV Shows are ones like "Hulu and Amazon", while YouTube is mentioned as a site to stream video games in stark contrast to what web television says on the matter. Seems to me that a larger problem is at play here that needs to be addressed, which is why I modified what I said and decided to post it here instead.

I understand that the lines have been blurred a bit in the digital age and that's understandable but clarity between terms exists for a reason and at the very least, as a compromise I would ask that more specific terms such as "streaming television" "webseries" or "Netflix series" should be used in cases like the aforementioned Netflix-exclusive series in spite of my insistence on the term "streaming television" being a misnomer here. Mattwo7 (talk) 02:02, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@Mattwo7: Hi there, I don't speak for the community, but I'm not sure if such a distinction is warranted. Do we differentiate between over-the-air television and cable television and satellite television? Don't we all generally feel that those things are the same even though the delivery comes in slightly different ways? I typically watch Netflix on my television. I could watch it on my computer via HTTPS, but does that make it a "web series" if I can also watch it through my phone or tablet app using whatever internet protocols they use? If I'm not using a web browser, is it still a web series? Similarly, I can also watch live cable shows wirelessly through my computer or tablet! So again, the delivery mechanism doesn't seem to define the content. If a program is created for Netflix or Hulu, I think it still generally fits into a few well-defined categories, like movie, documentary or series. The word television just means "distance vision"--it doesn't have to mean "content that is watched on a large box in the middle of the living room". Those are my two cents. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:12, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb: It is to my understanding that here at Wikipedia, sources overrule personal opinion and the overall lack of sources supporting the use of the term all across this project needs to be rectified if you want to push such an opinion in the face of what I've said. The definition food chain seems to be cited sources>dictionary>original research (with original research not being allowed at all here, which is part of the problem that I am bringing up). Sure if you break the word down you get those words but that's not the definition of the word "television" and I'm pretty sure definitions typically overrule etymology as a general rule of thumb when it comes to language in general, not just English (driveway and parkway are prime examples). Also satellite and cable are both live broadcast, comparing them to Netflix is like comparing apples to oranges, only the VoD stuff compares and that comes with the live broadcasting service where as Netflix offers no such thing, none of their originals have ever been broadcast live whereas the vast majority of VoD content (save for stuff like wrestling matches) has been aired live, a closer comparison to the VoD content on television would be a video podcast (I.e. Game Theory's GT Live) that's streamed live before being archived with an on-demand viewing service. Also btw, I've done a little more digging and it does seem that the term "television" in regards to web-original programming is more widely accepted than I thought so it shouldn't be too hard to find the sources to back up your opinion. Mattwo7 (talk) 14:58, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Also the fact that you access services like Hulu and Netflix via devices like HDTV sets, mobile phones and gaming consoles doesn't mean it isn't web-based, you're accessing content stored on the internet using the frontend of an API. Mattwo7 (talk) 15:18, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I doubt we'll be able to find any specific source to make it clear, but the reason why Netflix series are considered TV series is that they are created and produced in a manner reflecting how traditional television is put together: the show idea is pitched, a production company is sought, distribution rights have to be made, a season order is requested, there's casting, filming, production and post-production, and then distribution; further seasons have to be greenlit subsequently, and they are released in roughly annual basis, just not necessarily aligned with broadcast's year (from Sept to August). In contrast to a typical Youtube-based series which does not require many of those steps, specifically production and distribution company and rights - they are self published. (So something like Hot Ones is properly attributed as a web series vs TV series). Just because Netflix series generally have all episodes of a season landing the same doesn't meant they're not TV series - some broadcast TV series have had multiple episodes aired first on a single day. Other considerations to add is that the Emmys make no distinction between broadcast and streaming. (I remember way back when there was major consternation between over-the-air and cable, hence the ACE awards, but the industry has since viewed both as the same media format). --Masem (t) 16:13, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Masem essentially if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Also by searching I found this, this, this and this which describes Netflix's shows as "TV series" not "web series". There are some articles that use "web series" and some that use both terms. Also with today's media landscape the lines of "traditional" TV and web series continues to blur. One could argue that Game of Thrones is now a web series since HBO Now exists and you don't need to subscribe to the "traditional" linear HBO through a pay-TV provider to watch and the show airs at the exact same time via HBO Now and regular HBO. There is also recognizably, most people I know consider Netflix's shows to be TV series not web series they consider FBE's React shows a web series. Also you have shows like Star Trek: Discovery that air on CBS All Access that is considered a TV show and follows a release pattern similar to a traditional show (1 episode per week). Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 08:25, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Pinoy Big Brother (season 1)#Requested move 18 January 2019

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Discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 January 19#Template:Hotel1

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Feedback requested

Hi, I've opened a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television#Threshold for inclusion of awards. Short story, I'm trying to figure out what the community requires when deciding whether or not an award should be added to a TV article, and I'd like to encourage specific language be added to the MOS. Your comments there are appreciated. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Cite episode standardization

I've recently taken a look at {{Cite episode}} and noticed that the |author= parameter is being used in different ways by different editors. It would be good if we decide on a standed way for this to be done, and if needed request additional parameters be made available.

A few notes:

• Text should not be manually added after an individual as it corrupts the citation's author metadata. Example: J.J. Abrams (Director).
• Credits that can be considered "authors" - Writer, Teleplay, Story, Director, Showrunner - which of these, or others should be used? Note that while the script has a "writer" author, the finished audio-visual episode is not solely based on the writers vision (unlike a book), which means that if you cite an episode for a visual visual or SFX moment and a writer is used as an author, that seems to be wrong.
• If writers are used, should WGA screenwriting credit system (Writer A and Writer B vs Writer A & Writer B) be taken into consideration?

--Gonnym (talk) 13:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Related discussion at Help talk:CS1#Cite episode and author. --Izno (talk) 14:50, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

RfC on using the "As of" template, or some similar wording indicating that the score may have changed over time, for review aggregators

Opinions are needed on the following: Wikipedia talk:Review aggregators#RfC: Should the "As of" template, or some similar wording indicating that the score may have changed over time, be used for review aggregators in articles?. A permalink for it is seen here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:03, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Request for Comment invitation

What are the criteria for including an award in a biographical article? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:33, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Series overview tables

Quite some time ago this project made two decisions:

1. Series overview tables would be transcluded to the main series article
2. Series overview tables would not contain home media release information

We now have situations such as that at Star Trek: Discovery where the series overview table is not transcluded to the article, raising the potential for duplication errors, which was one of the reasons used to justify transcluding to the main series article. This table also has home media release information in the series overview table which has been cunningly disguised by dumping it in the "Release" section of the article. Have we changed our minds on how such tables are going to be compiled? --AussieLegend (✉) 07:08, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Correction: Series overview tables would not contain home media release information on the List of Episodes article. I can cite a multitude of articles that use the form of release table on the Star Trek: Discovery article, where they have existed without dispute. Duplication issues would exist where the series overview template is transcluded to the parent article, and the Release table exists at the same time; the series overview table gives information on the series, the release table gives release information on the series. Release can include broadcast and home media. I also don't recall any of this being set in stone... -- /Alex/₂₁ 07:11, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Correction: Series overview tables would not contain home media release information on the List of Episodes article. - Please cite the discussion where that exception was agreed to. That other articles may do what you say does not make it acceptable. You should know that by now. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:19, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Please cite the discussion where it was agreed upon to concretely ban all and any home media from any table that includes season-specific dates. -- /Alex/₂₁ 07:20, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I never said there was such a discussion so you haven't deflected from the need to cite the discussion that I asked you to cite. However the table in the STD article is a series overview table with DVD release dates added, which we did agree was not appropriate. Home media release information should be in the home media section, not in a series overview table. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:34, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Standard practice. Series overview templates typically exist on "List of episodes" articles, and before the episode tables. You stated "this project made two decisions"; that indicates discussion. (At least, I don't recall making such decisions telepathically...) When you say "That other articles may do what you say does not make it acceptable", yes, I would typically agree; however, when a multitude of articles contain such content, and do so without dispute or issue, then it is clearly acceptable. Much of what the Television WikiProject does is based on "other articles" and "standard practice" (which is why new editors have such a hard time editing television articles) which I tried to implement in the MoS, but that discussion died off as most here do. I'm still trying to work out how "we did agree [it] was not appropriate"... I see no issue with the table. -- /Alex/₂₁ 07:52, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Series overview tables have been discussed a number of times. This is but one of them. It wasn't the first as indicated by Cyphoidbomb and it wasn't the last, but I asked you about discussions that supported your position, not discussions in general. It doesn't matter whether you participated telepathically or not, if you have a position you have to be able to support it or abandon that position as unsupported. That a "multitude"{{citation needed}} of articles might do it still doesn't mean it's acceptable. There are a multitude of other articles violating practically every policy and guideline that we have but that isn't justification for continuing bad practices.

I'm still trying to work out how "we did agree [it] was not appropriate"... I see no issue with the table. - It's a series overview table that incorporates home media release dates. You know very well that's not acceptable. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:23, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I can link the articles if need be, and it still remains acceptable, see WP:EDITCONSENSUS. And MoS's are not policies. What may not be good for the goose, may be good for the gander. We use {{Episode table}} out of convenience, but don't ban raw wikicode tables (I know of several that use raw code out of necessity). {{Infobox television}} is meant to have a single date range for a series' release date, but it may be more descriptive for particular series to list several date ranges (e.g. revivals). The lead isn't meant to consist of new material (i.e. only in the lead), it's meant to summarize the body, yet we apparently often put renewals and cancellations only in the lead. Series overviews don't typically incorporate home media release dates, but it's not concrete. It's not what "not acceptable", as there is nothing to enforce as such; it's what beneficial and acceptable for the article itself. -- /Alex/₂₁ 08:31, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Episode!

Is episode list necessary for a GA? Is it required? Siddiqsazzad001 <Talk/> 17:20, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

What article are we talking about?... As an aside, I've noticed a lot of the WP:TV WP:GAs don't even properly follow MOS:TV (e.g. section ordering is wrong; often they don't follow WP:ACCESS in tables; etc.) – I'm not sure who has been reviewing those, but it seems like a lot of the times it's not a WP:TV regular... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:03, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@IJBall: My Love from the Star. Also please don't forget to ping me. Siddiqsazzad001 <Talk/> 06:10, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Watership Down plot

Hi, Currently at Watership Down_ (miniseries) the plot is a whopping 12350 words and 71833 characters long - So my question is should the plot remain and be trimmed or should it all be moved to the talkpage (in a collapsible box) so that someone can trim?,
I've added condense tags to each section but I don't really know if this will ever be trimmed or whether it'll just remain as is for all eternity,
I'm undecided on what to do so wanted to seek an opinion or 2,
Many thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 20:55, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Your post here and the IP are right. As stated, the summary is way too massive to be considered beneficial at all to the article, and needs to be completely reworked from the start, from scratch, within the guidelines of MOS:TVPLOT. I've gone ahead and removed it. I don't see any possible way that such content could be trimmed down satisfactorily; that's why it needed to be added from scratch. Preferably within the summary section of the {{Episode list}} entries, as well. The editors who added such a summary should also have {{uw-plotsum1}} posted to their talk pages. -- /Alex/₂₁ 01:07, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi User:Alex 21, I did wonder if re-doing from scratch would be a better idea, Okie dokie many thanks for your help :), –Davey2010^Talk 11:28, 31 January 2019 (UTC)