User talk:SchroCat

Do not leave the ‎DS alert for infoboxes on this page. I am aware of the requirements and restrictions and need no reminding. Any placing of the note will be reverted, probably with an appropriate response.

Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda

Martinevans123 ^{(Santa's Hard Brexit Grotto)} ... sends you ...

... warmest seasonal wishes for ...... Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda.

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Merry Christmas Baby... and hoping that you have a good New Year  !!

Live and Let Die (novel)

Gavin, someone listed this at WP:TFAP for April ... any issues? I don't make the call on scheduling, but if it's good to go, I'll do a suggested blurb. - Dank (push to talk) 15:14, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi Dan, all good with me. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

This is to let you know that the Live and Let Die (novel) article has been scheduled as today's featured article for April 5, 2019. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 5, 2019, but note that a coordinator will trim the lead to around 1000 characters anyway, so you aren't obliged to do so. We also suggest that you watchlist Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors on the day before and the day of this TFA. Thanks! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:15, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks Jim Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:40, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Eliza Acton scheduled for TFA

This is to let you know that the Eliza Acton article has been scheduled as today's featured article for April 17, 2019. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 17, 2019, but note that a coordinator will trim the lead to around 1000 characters anyway, so you aren't obliged to do so.

We also suggest that you watchlist Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors on the day before and the day of this TFA. Thanks! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks Jim Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:32, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

To any interested TPSs

To any TPSs, Tim riley and I have just finished re-writing Round the Horne and popped it into PR for comments. It would be bona to vada your dolly old ekes there for any fantabulosa thoughts you may have. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:26, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Ooooh, I do love good party, don't you, especially the Universal Party. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:10, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

TFL notification

Hi, SchroCat. I'm just posting to let you know that Agatha Christie bibliography – a list that you have been heavily involved with – has been chosen to appear on the Main Page as Today's featured list for March 29. The TFL blurb can be seen here. If you have any thoughts on the selection, please post them on my talk page or at TFL talk. Regards, Giants2008 (Talk) 03:53, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi Giants2008, thanks for your note, and I hope all is well. I’ve had a look at the page and it’s not FL standard at th moment: it’s had a shed load of junk dumped in there and there are a couple of unsourced sections and bits and pieces of unsourced material. We can’t run this one without giving it ans tikis overhaul first. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 06:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Do you think that you will have time to clean it up to your satisfaction before the Main Page date? This topic isn't a specialty of mine, and real-life work has left me struggling to do much of anything on here at the moment anyway. If you can fix it up, great. If not, please let me know ASAP so I can swap the page out if need be. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:12, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi Giants2008, I don’t think I will, no. I’m travelling with work for the next few weeks and can’t do any major new work for a while. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've now pulled the list from its scheduled date. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:34, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Who is it that really causes problems at IB discussions?

Bishonen, Worm That Turned, I'm staying out of the voting and to-do at Request for comment (RfC) on inclusion of Infobox mathematical statement (I made a brief interlude to stop the storm that was raging over the initial BRD kerfuffle, but that's all), but it's amazing how may IB warriors have turned up ("the same old crowd" of pro-box regulars, even the ones who say they "don't take part in IB discussions", etc). To the best of my knowledge none of these have edited the article before and none of them are regular editors of theoretical mathematics articles. Isn't it amazing just how they find these things out. I said all this at the last ArbCom, but no-one paid the slightest attention.
This time not one of the supposedly disruptive "anti-IBers" has turned up, just the people who regularly work the article and on the field of theoretical maths. And yet still the topic has turned into a toxic dump. I wonder where the finger will be pointed this time? A fiver says it's not towards the IB regulars who make the top right hand corner such a battleground in so many places. How many times do we have to see such behind-the-scenes co-ordinated action go on by the same group? - SchroCat (talk) 18:01, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

SchroCat. I am one who turned up at this article; no one contacted me behind the scenes and to make such a sweeping statement isn't very fair. I supported you recently because I try to be fair and honest with my dealings with everyone even if I don't always agree with them. I say that not for some kind of credit but because the fact that I watch almost 700 pages means I see a lot of articles, and if I can say something, I feel, is on some small scale useful I say it. I'm sure little of what I say is helpful but I always give it a shot if I am convinced in what I have too say. The IB wars are that way when editors attack other people not because we don't agree. We do not have to agree. And as an educator I feel IBs have place and one of those places is in an academically driven topic area. You don't have to agree with me and that is fine but opinion becomes a war when things get personal. You might look at where the attacks began for starters. Littleolive oil (talk) 18:25, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Looking at it, the attacks started when the person who removed the IB (correctly, under BRD), was given such a hard time for doing so, it's quite understandable why he reacted (and still reacts) like someone who came under attack. Such concerted approaches on single articles en masse will always get people's backs up. Is it really worth all the grief just to own that little piece of real estate on the top right hand corner? How many people have to be blocked, banned, driven away for coming to the end of their patience with the slow-moving bulldozer of IB pushing? - SchroCat (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think, in my case, at least, that it's about ownership. It's about accessibility for people who learn in a very specific way- from general to specific. I learn that way, choreograph that way, paint that way, direct that way so I have a sense of what happens when a topic area can feel restrictive simply because of the way my brain functions. And I've learned the hard way through trial and error that people learn in many ways with nuances that can be unique. People do get their backs up when edits are changed and people can be expected to feel attacked. I'm not sure what the answer is but understanding each other or trying to might be a start. I'm working on that myself not always successfully. I don't have any answers but at the moment given my RL stuff I tend perhaps to be less patient when accused. Best wishes. Honestly. No sarcasm meant. Littleolive oil (talk) 18:43, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I have heard about the accessibility point before (normally without evidence, just the claim), but that only works (if true) on subjects where the IB is useful and relevant. Looking at the proposed boxes at FLT, none of them actually explain what the theorem is, or provide any basic understanding about the topic. A newbie coming to the discussion for the first time (much like the IB warriors have done) will come away with absolutely no understanding about what FLT actually is, or what it means, or why it is or is not important. For that you need context, and if there is one thing an IB does not give, it is context. There are several places where IBs are excellent and useful, several where they are imperative, several where they are grey areas and several where they provide no assistance whatsoever, but only add to the confusion of what is a complex topic. FLT is one of those where an IB is more harmful to understanding than the absence of one. Context and subtlety are what are needed with theorietical maths, and IBs are the polar opponents of both subtlety and context.

I understand why IB warriors constantly push for boxes on biographies (one of the grey areas where I think there needs to be thought put into whether they are useful or not, as some are, some are not), but this is a(nother) bad place to try and pitch yet another pitched battle over the top right-hand corner, and with so little benefit or gain to the overall IB push.

I understand when you say that this is one of the pages on your watchlist, but I really do think it stretches belief that so many IB pushers "happen" to have that page on their watchlist, despite never having been near it in the past. Funny how these things happen, I guess. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 01:39, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

The page wasn't on my watch list but a comment on a talk page I did have watched listed led me out of curiosity to see what was going on. When I saw the RfC I felt I had a position to state. The IB even with limited information can be all that is needed to crack open a door for learning. The IB is the gateway that allows the reader to begin rather than feel turned away. I've been teaching for a long time and have seen first hand how students access information differently. I'm sure many others have teaching experiences as well so I'm not saying I have some insight others don't, simply that this has been my experience. I'm also not saying this is the best place for an IB just that for some readers it can be useful. And if it can be useful to some, why not? I believe I can understand the frustration and the position you hold I also see the other side which has equal validity. I have no idea what the answer is. Littleolive oil (talk) 03:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Rereading this I may be causing confusion and I don't want to be misleading. The article itself was not watchlisted but a talk page was watch listed with a comment that led to this article. As often happens I see a comment and wonder what its about and so follow it. Anyway I guess the point is I at least was not cooking up something behind the scenes. People disagree and in this case strongly. I don't have time or stomach for back room deals and in the end I don't care much about outcomes. Just doing what seems right at the time. And apologies if my comments were confusing. Littleolive oil (talk) 08:10, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

As I've just written below in long format, not everything can be broken down into factoids without starting to mislead or confuse, and Fermat's is one of those. (I didn't want to get into the discussion about boxes generally or in the specific - I have had to deny a troll trying to needle me to do just that recently, but as you've raised it, it's a good example to use). I looked at the suggested boxes on the Fermat talk page, and I was more confused by what I saw there than when I arrived. That's a brilliant reason for an IB: confuse the living daylights out of readers so they are forced to read the text to gain a measure of understanding. I'm not sure I'd agree with that! Yes, you are right that people access information differently, but the "information" on Fermat's, for example, is just misleading. It doesn't actually aid the novice trying to find out what it is, nor help those who understand the concept, nor the expert. You have to wonder what the actual point of having it is. But the IB pushers who have managed to drive away one of the editors of maths articles won't care about any of that. As long as that little piece of real estate is in their hands, it doesn't matter how many Purgys have to be forced off the project. - SchroCat (talk) 14:59, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• I did raise this as a response to an accusation. SchroCat as long as I or anyone else I find on Wikipedia is, I feel, treated unfairly I will respond and I will defend myself or them. Its that simple. Littleolive oil (talk) 19:24, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Just in case I have to justify how I arrive at an article: I met the discussion on the talk of RexxS, and then Purgy Purgatorio came to my talk page. I gave him some advice, still on his talk page but seemingly not understood. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:02, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Are you sure? Purgy's first ever post on Rex's talk page was 08:55, 26 February 2019‎. The thread on your talk page was 11:10, 26 February 2019. Your first input on the page was 15:58, 25 February 2019: the day before either of those postings. Amazing how these things work out.

Purgy is now on an indef block, and aggressive IB pushing claims yet another scalp, while the maths project (and the project as a whole) have lost a good editor in a field we don't have enough editors in already. Can you really not see the cause and effect between the aggressive pushing of the ownership of the top right hand corner and editors being pushed to the point where their patience vanishes? Shabash to the cabal in getting rid of another irksome editor. - SchroCat (talk) 11:16, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

My memory is bad, sorry, so is my reading ability, and my English. I am not aware of "aggressive pushing" - please explain what you mean by that. I will not stop saying that a hint in the top right corner about where and when to place a subject in history is desirable and makes a topic more accessible, and not only for "idiots", See Beethoven. Not about his genius which also the prose can't capture. I am able to bite my tongue when I know authors will not listen (see FACs Mendelssohn, Berlioz, Berlioz, Rossini, "your" horse). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:24, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

As I said - amazing how these coincidences that you just happened to look at that page just after the thread had been opened. How lucky it was for you.

Please don't insult my intelligence - or yours - by saying your English is not good enough. Anyone who has written 2 or 3 FAs, as you have, will easily be able to understand something as relatively simple as "aggressive pushing". It's not an excessively difficult phrase to parse. Google translates it to "aggressives Schieben", which you will be able to understand well enough along with the original English. It is what is happening yet again at the Fermat's page, just as it has happened over so many other pages. The "usual suspects" turn up and it turns toxic. Except that here the only "usual" people to turn up are those guilty of aggressive pushing to own that top right-hand corner. It's a group that does not care what it destroys in the process, does not care for the collegiate approach or for gentle consensus building, but in the aggressive push, bulldoze and dominate approach to their pet plan. You don't care that someone is now indef blocked, or that you collectively have caused several people to walk away from the project at your approach. To you all they were the annoyance that got in the way of an inflexible mindset and unbending combative tactics that is prepared to destroy anyone or anything to get its own way. At some point, when the numbers of people you have all driven away get too high someone might take note of it, but with a couple of pro-IBers on ArbCom who are prepared to ignore your collective actions, sadly it will be too late for many, and all that will be left are the boxes that don't help, don't aid, don't provide the right information, don't enlighten or educate to do anything but mislead and add confusion to the readers.

Fermat's is one such box. Too many knee-jerk votes on that page by people who roll up, paste their usual Support vote to include a box who know fuck all about the subject, what it is, or how to describe it. Looking at the suggested boxes on that talk page, I was more confused than when they were not there. At some point the penny will drop that not everything can be broken down into factoids or "data" or however you want to dress it up. Not everything in life can be displayed in a table without leaving readers more confused than when they arrived, but congratulations on driving another editor to the point of anger and upset that he says something he would not have done otherwise. - SchroCat (talk) 14:59, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I am sorry to have driven you to anger, and don't accept the "congratulations". I have not supported the block of Purgy, although I confess that I disliked some of his comments such as about my attention span. I don't think you and I expect the same things from an infobox, but it seems not the right time to discuss that today in the gentle consensus-building I'd appreciate. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:43, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I am always angry when a co-ordinated push by the massed ranks of IB pushers ends up with another editor blocked or walking away. I really don't know why the box is worth more than other editors to you and your cabal, but it's a sickening sight to watch - nothing more than pack mentality, isolating one editor who over-reacts and then driving them to the point where an ANI case can be filed against them and they get blocked. Brilliant. And if you get to have what will be a pointless box that confuses much more than it explains, that'll be their epitaph for you, and Purgy will have been forgotten by the IBers as yet another blip that got in their way to ensure boxes proliferate regardless of the inherent faults they have. Con. Grat. U. La. Tions. Well done. The prize for the most disruptive co-ordinated group on WP is all yours: enjoy it while there are still editors around to give a toss. - SchroCat (talk) 18:38, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

no --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:36, 24 March 2019 (UTC)