Wikipedia talk:WikiProject User warnings

Wikibreak

Hi everyone, Sorry I've been a bit quiet the last couple of days, but I'm just planning a trip back to the UK. So I'll be incommunicado, for the next week or so and I'll re-start this around 10th Nov. cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 10:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm back after driving 1100km in 12 hours, gimme a couple of days, and I'll start back up. Now it's bedtime! Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 23:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Merged from WP:UWLS -- Keeping old warnings makes some clean up easier

I'm triggered to look at vandals when they hit one of the articles on my watchlist. Being familiar with the topics, it's clear what's vandalism. Then I start looking at all their edits to other articles. I see that a bot has reversed their edit, but often bots just revert to another anon's edit, often vandalistic.

If I look at that anon's edit and it's changing a date from 1924 to 1928, is that vandalistic? Should it be edited out if subsequent editors haven't spotted it? Being an unfamiliar topic, the answer's unclear to me. A quick way to deal with question is to look at the anon's talk page -- if it's full of warnings, I'll edit it out the new date with a comment to the article's other editors to check the date, either in my edit summary [1] or on the talk page. Otherwise, I assume good faith and move on. Some accounts are virtually vandalism only, but the edits are of a low enough frequency that there may be only one warning or puzzled comment ("why did you do that?") in the last 90 days. Likewise, a talk page full of discussions with other editors about articles quickly shows this is probably a good faith editor.

Questions of this sort crop up several times a week when I'm reversing vandalism. It's nice to have the full history.

Subtle, uncaught vandalism such as a slight date or location changes are ultimately worse for Wikipedia's reliablility than the "JOEY is Gay!!!" kind -- at least readers are not unknowing absorbing deliberate misinformation since they just tune out the Joey stuff. --A. B. 16:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a good reason to remove warnings. Judging users based on warnings issued to others with the same shared IP address is hardly fair to them. A more accurate way to check is through references. If the reference doesn't support the change (or they don't use an edit summary), revert and encourage them to use edit summaries and reliable sources. —[admin] Pathoschild 16:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Pathoschild, procedurally you are absolutely right, however ... as I write this, I'm working my way through 212.219.94.65's latest spree and encountering just these sorts of questions [2]. I've got 23 edits to check from yesterday and today, some to pages heavily edited by other anons. Now I've got to do encyclopedic research on each when questions arise? Ask these additional anons to use edit summaries? Does any editor always do this in these situations? I think I'm plenty conscientious as it is -- from what I can see, most editors (including admins) don't seem to go through vandals' other recent editors, let alone agonize over how far to revert. If we now have to do even more, I think even fewer folks will engage in this sort of action. --A. B. 17:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Back to my Wikibreak/day job; I'll let others finish cleaning up after this guy today. --A. B. 17:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, one final example from 212.219.94.65's November edits Start with his first edit to Mona the Vampire and step through the following 13 edits by him and others. Knowing nothing about Mona, try sorting this article out. Some other edits are likely vandalism but others are less clear. [3] --A. B. 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

At the very least, perhaps when warnings are removed, a blurb could be added to the top of the page indicating that the warnings were trimmed, and that the removed message can be found in the history? --AbsolutDan ^(talk) 23:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps. I created User:Pathoschild/Template:History to link to the text in the history. For technical reasons, it's impossible to obtain the current or previous revision id of a page.

{{User:Pathoschild/Template:History}}	Older messages have been archived to the page history. (No revision id specified.)
{{User:Pathoschild/Template:History|37559220}}	Older messages have been archived to the page history.

—[admin] Pathoschild 20:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I like it! --AbsolutDan ^(talk) 02:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Overview table

OK I've had a first pass at adding all the warnings to the above that we will cover. I've highlighted warnings because I think after we have done this we should look at the other talk page templates i.e welcome, shared IP, etc. This is only a first pass, have a look through and make any mods you see fit. I think we should look to start this next Monday? I've already assigned myself three sets of warnings, take the others as you see fit. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 13:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Bots

Does anyone know a good bot writer? I think it may come in handy that as soon as someone uses an old template even with the redirect, it comes in behind, tidies it then send the user a polite message with a link to the new overview table? I'll have a look round but would appreciate any volunteers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 13:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Pop in at wikipedia-spam

You guys should sound off some of this stuff or just talk to the folks at irc://irc.freenode.net/wikipedia-spam-t, the wikipedia-spam talk channel. It's full of RC patrollers/vandal fighters, bot builders and seasoned admins all of whom are looking to squash vandals + spam. Being one of them, I drop a ton of user_talk warnings all over the place, and anyone there could have some good insight into this project. Take Thadius856's many unencyclopedic external link warning templates - we've been trying out template stuff too. JoeSmack ^Talk 19:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Done, left a couple of messages on IRC, and want to get hold of Thadius who has done some of your template work. I think we can incorporate your needs into our templates, which allows a more concerted approach to user page messages. Just need to know what you require out of your warnings, and we can try and find our common ground. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 22:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

How has this been going? If nothing, keep trying! :) JoeSmack ^Talk 02:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Left a message on Thadius's talk page, but no response. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Is anybody out there?

It's helluva quiet with all these names that keep getting added. C'mon get stuck in pleeaassssseee! Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 14:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm here, but rather busy on Meta at the moment. I'll be able to concentrate on this WikiProject more when I mostly finish up there. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 19:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

John Reaves' grid

Just a couple of days ago I ran upon User:John_Reaves/grid - which seems to be a user's individual way of tracking names of warning messages - a similar thing to what we are doing here. It could come in very handy! -- Chuq 07:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That's the template that started this whole review, it's almost an exact copy of WP:TT. We will be creating an newer version, using the first table on the overview page. Even though it's not complete yet, looks much neater don't you think ;). If you're interested in some work let me know. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I just got a reply from John R about this, saying he didn't write it :) the page he said it was from was Wikipedia:Template_messages/User_talk_namespace! -- Chuq 08:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Speedy delete, etc (21 Nov)

Reword delete 0 - 2 to reflect as well as text removal or page blanking, it's to cover deletion of any procedural messages on a page, covers speedy delete, AFD, etc. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 15:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Recreate (21 Nov)

Recreation warning 0 - 2 covers spam-warning and recreated Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 15:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Have any been created

Has anybody here created any of the new templates, such as on a temporary page? I would like to help out, and it would be useful to see some of what we are going for. -- kenb215 talk 03:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm starting here, will finish a first pass for {{test}}, {{delete}} and {{vandalism}} over the next couple of days. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 13:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll probably create a few as well over the next couple of days. // I c e d K o l a ^(Contribs) 18:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd recommend that we're all happy with the template before we go any further, I'll leave it where it is for now, but mod it as you see fit. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 19:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Just so I can get a better idea, should the level 2 warning be similar to the one I created for personal use? User:Iced Kola/T2? Than the level 3 warning should be similar to test4? Also, I'll take up the job of Userpage and talk page vandalism templates, and the creating inappropiate pages templates if there's no objections to that. // I c e d K o l a ^(Contribs) 20:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the long reply, and if you already know this stuff. First off, trust me there are no objections for people looking for work. I don't know if you seen them yet but there is an overview page that lists all the new templates, along the same lines as WP:TT. More importantly below that is a list of all the old templates, and this is so we can get the redirects in place, but it also acts as a check list to make sure, all the templates are included in some form with the new system. I've still to do groups 5 & 6 but should have that done in the next day or so. The reason I'm saying this is that I/we might identify old templates that could be incorporated into a new one so I don't really want us to get ahead of ourselves. If you look here it's basically the guidelines written by User:Pathoschild and myself and I'd started doing the deletes, and then realised I could add the speedy delete stuff into it as well. Your T2 warning would be fine as a T1, but there will not be a test3 warning anymore, it will be re-directed to {{vandalism3}} as it's a bit ludicrous to be telling someone we're going to be blocking them for carrying out a test, where as we all know it for what it is, it's vandalism. We would like the test warnings to be for literally when people are carrying out tests, anymore than that it's vandalism. Help your self to the {{tpvX}} and {{creationX}} warnings, just added your names to the overview page as responsible for those warnings. Just do them on a page like my template page we'll get a few pages knocked together, see if there's anything amiss and then we can do them in short order after that. Thanks Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 22:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete

I'm adding somemore redirects to the overview page, and concerning my deletion proposal on the templates page, about adding the 'deletion of templates' warning to the delete template, I've had no repsonses so tomorrow I'll add them as re-directs. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 15:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

OK Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we've waited long enough to garner support for this project, lets get it on!!!! I've had no comments to my delete proposals so I will carry out first versions of the new delete and vandalism warnings, as well as re-doing the test warnings.

Take a copy of my template page here and then create subpages of this project as I have done above. Then post a message saying your done, with the link, and give it a couple of days for other project members to just double check it. Once that's past bad-a-bing, do the redirects and put them into action. The only editors actually doing any new templates so far are myself, User:Pathoschild, and User:Iced Kola.

I've also created the Template:Templatesnotice to put at the bottom of all templates (included in my template page), edit as you see fit. Anyway we've been waiting a couple of months to get here, and I thank you (including the lurkers who have an interest) for your patience.

Right let's see what mess we can make of things. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 09:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Added myself as "active"

Hi, I just added myself as "active" (by accident). I then realized there was also an "interested" section. While I haven't done anything yet, I want to be more involved than "interested" and if I can, enough to be considered "active", so I left myself there. What is there that I can start on? I've had some experience with reorganizing the templates, as I added the {{spam0}} template, reorganized the spam template nav box, as well as some stuff with getting rid of the -n templates. I just didn't know their was a WikiProject! Let me know what I can do. -- Renesis (talk) 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all welcome onboard. If you are familiar with the spam warnings then you are more than welcome to start with them. Start by taking a copy of this template page here and then create this page copy & pasting the template in. Add your name to the overview page with a link to your new page, and then review the redirects, the existing warnings, and try and making everything fit into the new structure. If you can see any redirects I've not done, that could be incorporated into spam, please add them. As I've said to some of the other editors, feel free, we've put some guidelines in place on the harmonisation page, but the rest is upto you, and you can play to your hearts content ;). Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 23:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

{{spam-warn}} {{spam-notice}} might fit somewhere into your templates. See section 6 Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 14:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Template

I've moded the base template to move the image away from the text and to make it look tidier. I've also added a standard text which looking through the overview can be modified to fit most of our new templates. Here's the base template and I've modified the {{delete}} and {{vandalism}} from templates to follow it. This is only an example so any ideas please feel free I won't be offended, edit away. Anyway I'm off skiing for a long weekend so my work here is done...... for now. P.S. Renesis, Iced Kola & Pathoschild, you've gone quiet, I need you guys to put these in place, Cheers. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 20:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Block template for IPs of banned users?

Is there any interest for something like this? Banned users' IPs cannot be blocked indefinitely unless they are on static IPs. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 17:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, there's always interest. With a mind of trying to harmonise the warnings, it could be included in the level 2 block but it wouldn't have exactly the wording. It's Pathoschild domain the blocks and he's on a wikibreak at the mo. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

headers

I was a bit confused by this edit: [4], especially since I can't seem to find the consensus on this talk page, Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings/Help:Everything or the project page for not including headers in warnings. They seem useful for organizational purposes, and save time we'd have to spend typing a unique header each time we use a warning when only a generic one is really needed. --W.marsh 18:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The guys over at WP:UWLS have discussed this at some length, but for us it's a question of standardisation. For example if we take a standard vandal who works through the warnings very quickly we would end up with a page of headers and when a large proportion of the warnings are only one or two lines long we will end up with more headings than warnings. Where a warning template is given to a good editor with a managed talk page, it would be the issuing editor who would add the header, and in this case one warning would/should suffice. But unfortunately the majority of warnings issued do not stop with one warning, and for the same infraction having a warning header automatically each time is unnecessary, and would only fill up a talk page. Regards Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject_user_warnings/Creation

I created the article creation warning templates, and I would appreciate if anyone can review them and make any improvements they think would be good. As for the tpv templates, I should get to them on friday or a bit earlier. // I c e d K o l a 22:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Fine for me, I think though we can reword slightly to add the re-creation of article/pages as well. What do you think? Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 13:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Good work!

I stumbled into this page by accident more or less. I think the outlines on the template page are very good. They are clearer than many of the current templates. I've been frequently frustrated with the number of times a vandal can strike before a ban is put in place. On the pages I watch, most are vandalized by anonymous users with a long history of vandalism. I look forward to being able to use this template structure, which will result in faster bans for blatant vandals in my opinion. Keep up the good work. Thanks, Dan Slotman 22:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it's nice to know there are some poeple out there anticipating our work. Regards Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 15:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

One warning then you're out

Looking at the remaining warnings on the overview page, the warning for releasing another editors personal info and legal threats. IMHO these are warnings that one cannot assume good faith with, they are done with intention and usually for malicious reasons. My idea is that we create a nuclear level of warnings, of a one warning and then a blocked. Whaddya think? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree fully. For personal info and legal threats, there should only be a strict level 3 warning. If a user really feels that it was out of good faith one way or another, they can just use {{vandalism}}. // I c e d K o l a 17:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Legal threats are frequently malicious, but not always. I suggest having a level 2 warning while starting at level 3 when appropriate. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 01:02Z

IMPORTANT: Signatures

A quick look through Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings/Overview made me discover we're not including auto-inserting signatures into the warnings. Since they are mostly made as <div>s or wikitables, a signature dangling below it won't look good. So, maybe we should embed them inside the table/div? Миша13 10:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

mmmmm, bugga just done a few tests and see what you mean. I, and others (see archives), don't like the idea of auto including signatures in templates, as that would change how things are done with other templates possibly. Is there anyother way we can do this then, wikitables?, same as below I only created the template just to get things started, any ideas? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

divs and wikitables are practically the same thing. And they're generally a good idea, since unwrapped warnings with images tend to stack ugly on the talk pages. But in case we use divs, we must also embed signatures inside, because there's no other way (except parameters, which is basically same thing) - a sig appended after a table won't magically "hop" into the box. Миша13 20:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Having signatures embedded, and I suppose the whole div/table thing, makes the warnings very brittle. There should be a way to add more text, at least an extra parameter. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 01:00Z

---

OK, we need to think carefully about this, I'm willing to wait until we have all the templates for review before we take a decision on this one. I understand the problem but the main reason I took on the work here was to see harmony amongst all templates. For continuing my plans of world domination, after this project I'm most probably going to start looking at all other templates, i.e welcome messages, edit summary, etc and whatever we put into place here I feel should be extended to all templates.

So anyone else working here, roll up roll up, all ideas accepted. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 11:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Symbols

I think all level 2 should have the "!" in the triangle symbol and all level 3 to have the stop hand symbol. Someone just scrolling through a talk page will be alerted to the warning if they see a symbol like that. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 16:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Levels 0 & 1 are mild notices/reminders, but levels 2 & 3 usually mention the possibility of a block, which is where things get dead serious. Миша13 16:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

0 & 1 are information notice that assume good faith or doesn't assume anything about the editors actions hence only the information symbol. level 2 is where we start saying watch it, we have our eye on you hence and then level three is OK you've been warned now you have no other chances and taken this way seem logical to me. My only point for Teck is, you say scrolling through a talk page, for the offending editor with this system he should have had one if not two warnings/messages prior to getting the red image so it shouldn't come out of the blue or as a surprise. Misza, please I implore you change the images on the jokes templates ;) Anyway these are only suggestions I have been here doing this for a couple of months now so I may have become entrenched in my ideas, so if I seem hestiant let me know and the same for any new ideas, and thanks for your participation. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It is exactly the "good faith" reason for which I left the original smiley idea on 0 & 1 level joke templates. They're supposed to be used in cases when the editor giving the warning also thinks that the edit was funny, but would like to point out it may not be appropriate. :) For the sake of standarisation, however, I concur that 2 & 3 should have the triangle and hand images as TeckWiz suggested. Миша13 20:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Incase anyone didn't see them this is where we looked at the images. I don't want to re-initiate the whole discussion at this late stage, but am sure we can quickly look at any other ideas, if they're mentioned quickly. Otherwise we'll always be stuck in the same place, as new editors come onboard. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

level3 warnings

I don't see the discussion about level 3, I probably missed it. Sorry if I bring a point that has already been discussed.

I have some concerns about the wording of the level3 template: "The next time you vandalise Wikipedia, you will be blocked.". An editor that gets the level3 template is most probably a vandal and might see it as a challenge "you don't dare doing that again". Most of RC changes patrollers however don't have admin tools and can't issue blocks. I think a better wording would be that the next time the user will be reported to an admin for measures. a bit like "The next time you vandalize Wikipedia, you will be reported to the administrative group and may be blocked". -- lucasbfr ^talk 17:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Certainly doesn't sound unreasonable to me, I only put the template together just to get the ball rolling. Maybe wait till all of the templates on the overview are on review and then unless anyone complains change the incorrect ones at the same time, and do the template now. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in my templates I left the original sentence, for consistency. Let's wait until all are created to see. -- lucasbfr ^talk 00:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it should say "the next time you will be reported to an admin", because sometimes the person giving the warning is an admin. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-17 19:59Z

In that case, maybe do like {{test4}} and {{test4alt}}? but I would prefer the "reported to an admin" to be the default behavior (I think most patrollers are not admins) and the create a {{xxx3admin}}? Or maybe add an admin argument to the templates? (for example {{xxx3|Test}} would put the "reported to admins" one and {{xxx3|Test|admin=y}} the admin version? -- lucasbfr ^talk 00:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I still prefer no "will report you to admins" at all, it sounds too much like the childish "I'm going to tell on you" tattletale threat. I believe there was a past discussion on this, not sure where though. Vandals needing to be blocked should be reported at WP:AIAV and should get a firm "you will be blocked" message as their last warning. "You may be blocked" is too weak (only reasonably experienced Wikipedians should be using warning templates anyway, so just say it strongly). —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 00:57Z

Copied from TeckWiz talk page for further concensus.

Thanks for taking on the npa warnings. Just a question why do you consider it's not possible to have a npa0 & 1 warning. IMHO it is possible to give a warning for personal attacks AND assume good faith at the same time. Example, is a new editor not familiar with how editors talk to each other who calls someone an idiot in a minor disagreement the same as an editor calling another an 'effin' loser. The guidelines recommends have warnings 0 - 3 for blockable and 0 - 2 for not blockable, and if we don't try to keep to that we will end up with exactly the same system we have now, bits of warning here and there and no consistency. Just my thoughts whaddya reckon? Cheers again Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess a npa1 can be used. but 0 is definitely too light. If someone for example, brings up on an article talk page how "some idiot" keeps removing one of his details, but also explains why, he's just losing a little of his cool. I guess that that could be an npa1. But, something like capitalizing on the user's talk page "YOU IDIOT!", should definitely deserve a npa2 or 3. Also, anything that would be considered vandalism, except for the fact that it's an attack, like blanking someones userpage with "You (any profanity)!!!" should be considered npa3. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 21:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to gain some concensus on this matter from the other project members please. Guidelines call for 0 - 3 level warning, and if we start picking and choosing which levels of warning to create then we are IMHO replacing one system of mismatched warnings for another. Looking through WP:NPA I think there is lot of scope for assuming good faith with as another example an editor who has a long and distinguished editing history, who has just got heated under the collar, I would prefer to see all four levels of warning created, and let the issuing editor decide on the level of infraction and the severity of the warning to be issued. Thoughts please. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Khukri, it is possible for a good faith editor to get flustered and say things he doesn't really mean. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 01:07Z

Unsourced

Seem to also cover NOR - suggest we rename those to nor0, nor1, as opposed to unsourced0, unsourced1 etc. Easier to remember and faster to type. Thoughts? KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Let's keep both names. "Unsourced" may be easier to remember for some people. Either one is fine as the primary name. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 01:13Z

CSD warnings

Hi guys, sorry did not even know this Wikiproject existed.

I thought I would tell you guys three things that I am doing at the moment with CSD warning templates, and see you have any comments or issues.

1. Wikipedia talk:Template messages/User talk namespace#CSD deletion templates creating a new set of CSD deletion templates to be used instead of CSD warning templates, when an Admin deletes article.
2. Merging of redundant CSD templates Template:nn-notice into Template:nn-warn and Template:spam-notice into Template:spam-warn, as well as any other redundant ones I can find - appropriate process used see talk pages.
3. The heading issue with CSD warning templates has been raised here Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#CSD templates and solution is here Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#CSD templates - HEADINGS. The solution allows for headers if so desired.

I suppose there might be some big issues with the final point, considering one of the Goals on this project is to have NO HEADINGS. But maybe you might want to consider the solution mentioned above - allow best of both worlds. Cheers Lethaniol 15:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, doesn't look like there is any problems for us with what you are doing with CSD's even with the headers, as one off messages such as CSD, welcomes, etc, are different from warnings which tend to be used more frequently on the user page. However, as you demonstrated by not knowing we existed, it shows how fragmented the generation of templates is on Wikipedia. I and a couple of other editors have ideas in the near future to bring all message templates under the roof of one project, with an idea to harmonise the format of everything. If you have a look at our redirects page some of the templates you mentioned are on there. It's a large ask, and editors like yourself with experience in certain areas, would be an asset. If you're interested let me know, but it will not get into full flow until the new year until the work slows up here. Regards Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 15:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay will get to it, also would like to help out, will add my name to the list, and help out in new year cheers Lethaniol 16:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

New template features

Using some fancy template syntax, I have managed to enrich some existing projects with the following features:

• Optional text, as requested above, carried in the second parameter {{{2}}} - this will be embedded within the message box right after the standard text.
• Optional signatures - embedded signatures are on by default, but if you pass an extra parameter {{...|sig=n}}, it will not be inserted.

All this is done with this piece of code:

{{{2|}}} {{subst:<includeonly></includeonly>#ifeq:{{{sig}}}|n| |~~<includeonly></includeonly>~~}}

Also, we're switching the design from <div>s to wikitables. This has few advantages, including that the images will not "spill" out of the message boxes if the text is very short. Few existing projects have already been converted to the new scheme. You can see a demo on User:Khukri/templates - when creating new templates series, please copy that code (in edit-mode, not by subst:'ing). Thank you, Миша13 17:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Update: all existing templates made so far by people have been updated to the new scheme. Миша13 19:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

And examples now added on discussion pages. Thanks to Misza for all time taken. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 20:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Is this going to add a lot of markup when substituted? (I guess it's really a missing feature in MediaWiki that you can't "fully transclude and remove all template markup".) —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 22:36Z

Removing warning templates

Hi. I've read that it's okay to remove warnings from your own talk page, but have re-discovered what I thought to be the rule, so my question is, when should a template like Template:Removewarn (is there any other like it?) be used, if at all? THanks. Xiner (talk, email) 22:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no policy against removing warnings without archiving them, however it is generally frowned upon. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 22:34Z

Edit summaries

I was just bitten for the first time for leaving an edit summaries reminder on a fellow Wikipedian. Can't say I'm surprised, for I knew something like this would happen. I should've listened more to my gut feelings; the current template may look like a warning to some, even though it should never rise to that level, and while I understand it's guidelines and believe it should be done etc, some people just don't see the point, and until they do, no amount of pleading will change their perspective. I don't know what the solution is. Xiner (talk, email) 22:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Your message to him seemed friendly. I note this user has been blocked before for incivility, personal attacks, and edit warring, so I would just move on. I think the template is fine. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 22:43Z

Okay. Thanks. Xiner (talk, email) 23:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Test template redirecting

I don't think {{test}} should redirect to {{test0}} like it says in the table, it should go to test1, there'll be less confusion among editors. --WikiSlasher 02:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. -- Renesis (talk) 04:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Your wish is my command, done! Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 07:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The wording for test1 is the old test2 wording, i.e. second warning. Most people using {{test}} probably mean it to be the first warning. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-20 09:36Z

The next step

There are only 5 more templates to be taken, so if you have a spare 20 mins please help yourselves.

The next step, once all of the template pages are completed, we will leave the pages on review for a couple of weeks, putting a banner ad on the project page announcing they are for review and any comments are to be left on the talk page and we will do any modifications. I suggest what with Chrimbo and new year, we leave the review period until the 2nd week of January, thoughts please?

After that will be to set an implementation day, we are lucky enough to have a number of admins on the interested and active list. A fair few of our templates are fully protected, so I suggest the day before implementation you (the admins amongst us) change all templates from fully to semi protected so editors like myself can do some of the work. Then we change over all in the quickest possible time including the redirects. Also I recommend that all of us involved meet up on an IRC channel prior to put everything into place to hammer out any details. So when do we go for it? I'm ok most days and I suggest a morning UTC so we can get all of the European and American editors in the same place at the same time at a reasonable hour, and any date except the 21st Jan as it my birthday, and I will be drinking at a rugby match somewhere! Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 09:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Good. Discussion for the change should be widely announced: on {{cent}}, WP:AN, WP:VP. Aaron Breneman has already been preemptively unprotecting warning templates, the subject of a current dispute. I agree that the holiday season should be avoided. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-20 09:34Z

I've done a fair amount of spamming for this over the last couple of months, what with signpost and all that. Hopefully those that haven't heard will start realising somethings a miss when their warnings change on them, and it doesn't have the same meaning as before, which is bound to happen. The only thing I'm not looking forward to is people coming in and saying why weren't they informed, a small group hidden away somewhere, and that they find it all unacceptable. But anyway, in the mean time one thing UW members can do is sit on the recent changes page, and spam any warning issuing editor with the message that can be found here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Khukri (talk • contribs) 10:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC) That is I think the first time I've done that!!!! Bugga there goes my next RfA out of the window ;) Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 13:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. --WikiSlasher 13:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I might also suggest dropping a link on the 'Notices' section of the Community bulletin board as well, perhaps with some sort of laymen's education or quick summary of what has/is going down on a separate link sos people can catch up. Put in a quick talk into the IRC for #wikipedia, #en-wikipedia, #vandalproof (these templates might fuck up their program? talk to User:AmiDaniel), #wikipedia-spam-t and #vandalism-en-wp. Finally, let the "wikipedia news world" know - Signpost tipline, Wikizine (aka Walter's meta talkpage) and WikipediaWeekly - sos they can let their readers in on it. JoeSmack ^Talk 15:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I've done

• Signpost
• Village pump
• Admin notice board
• couple of IRC channels
• The VP mob, via the VP page and the IRC channel.
• Indiscriminate spam attacks on RC patrollers.
• Admins I know of the top of my head involved in RC patrol

So if someone else can do the others please, and add them to this list. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 11:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Recently? Considering this is all coming to a head, it might be worth it to get some current updates to these places (signpost, VP etc) JoeSmack ^Talk 20:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Merging of projects

There's another project looking at the layout of warnings, who as far as I can see have a similar remit to us. I left a message with them a couple of weeks back with no responses, but I can see no reason why we don't merge their project into ours. Any thought please? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 11:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

OK spoken to Pathoschild and he's for it am now leaving messages with the members. So unless I get any response against it, within the next couple of days I will merge and redirect the Wikipedia:WikiProject on user warning layout standardisation to this project. As I've stated before it is in Wikipedia's best interest that there is one sole project looking after templates. So if anyone knows of any other fringe (I mean that with respect) projects let me know and I will look to the synergies and merging of project. In the end I would like to see this project here to help and become the driving force behind WP:UTM and have UTM as the only project looking after templates. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 10:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Last chance, will merge them this evening. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do, there's barely enough critical mass of active participants to operate one WikiProject. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-27 12:24Z

Done and dusted, see below. What's next? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Merged from WP:UWLS--WP:UW

Hi, Pathos I know you are involved heavily in both projects. I'm having a look round at your mandate here, and the mandate of the revitalised User Warnings Project and there is alot of synergy and think we can pool our resources. Any thoughts on a merge of projects and resources? Regards Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm confused on what the difference is between the two projects. -- nae'blis 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

All members have been informed, if there are no further responses by 27th December, this project will be merged with WP:UW. Regards Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 12:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not thoroughly convinced of a merge because even though both projects are about warning templates, they seem to me to be very different things. By that, I mean WP:UW seems to be about standardising the look and wording of the templates that are posted to user talk pages. While WP:UWLS seems to be about making a standard layout of templates that are posted to user talk pages; the monthly headers and bullets and so on. --Geniac 17:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

As you mentioned both project are about warning templates, and with the amount of work we have recently taken on, to add the headers and bullets, etc would not be a huge amount of work. Also if the members here were willing to come over with the work then I can see no difference on how the work is being carried out, but just where it is being done. Eventually I would like to create a one stop shop for all templates, so new editors don't bounce around from pillar to post if they have any questions and all templates are managed from one central location. Once we have done the leveled warnings, hopefully finished mid-end Jan, we will be starting on welcome templates, sharedip and all other single issue templates, and I think it would be good if we are all singing off the same hymn sheet instead of one group doing the borders, another doing the text, and another deciding what size we should do the images. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I understand the preference for a one stop shop; I was just concerned that merging projects with different goals would mean that one or the other would be lost in the shuffle. I assume you mean for everything user talk namespace template related, not all templates (navboxes, infoboxes, etc)? --Geniac 01:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Yep, only userspace. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 09:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm OK with the merge now and happy with the answers to my questions. --Geniac 13:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Page move templates

I noticed on the overview page that the page move templates are listed with question marks at the bottom of the first redirect table. Is there a reason that they haven't been moved to the main section? It seems as if it could be included easily, by adding this line to the end:

Page moves	{{move0}}	{{move1}}	{{move2}}	{{move3}}	Yes	Unassigned	Not started

-- kenb215 talk 23:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Add away, I think I only questioned marked it as I wasn't sure at the time if I could merge it with something else. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 11:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Modifying/adding parameter to {{subst:UE}}

Hi. I'm really not sure where to ask this question, but here goes. I'm involved with Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English, which lists and evaluates non-English pages before they are PROD'ed, speedied, or put up for AfD. As part of that work, we warn the posters of the non-English content, using {{subst:UE}}. Now, that template already has one optional parameter, to list the name of the article posted. But I would really like there to be another such parameter, where we could specify the language edition Wikipedia of the content. That could produce a message encouraging the user to contribute to that specific language Wikipedia. Basically, I'm thinking something like {{subst:UE|Article|ru.wikipedia.org}}. At PNT, users are already identifying language-of-content, and I really think this modification could be helpful. How/where do I propose this template modification? Thanks for the assistance. --Fsotrain⁰⁹ 20:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you might have the wrong place. I'd try Wikipedia:Help desk or Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance) with this exact same post. Good luck! JoeSmack ^Talk 21:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Transfering

When should we start transferring the templates on the subpages to their new pages? TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 17:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

As alot of the template names are already used, we can't roll them out piecemeal until they are all finished, as we will end up with a hotchpotch of warnings and levels. When all of the templates are finished and have a successful review period, then we'll start implementing, but lets get them all finished first. I think third/fourth week in Jan will be a likely time for roll out. If you want something to do in the meantime, as well as the outstanding templates, Joesmack had mentioned [[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_user_warnings#The_next_step|here]] about re-doing some of the notify alls, if you want to help out. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Block Templates

Okay-I'm not that good at parser functions, but from looking at the template, I was able to remove one function that was in the template twice. However, the article function doesn't seem to working the way that the usage stated, and the way it should be if you look at which function number it is. Help is needed. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 17:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem ;) Pathoschild is on a wikibreak at the moment working in wikimedia, so his template isn't up for review yet. I'll leave it a week or so and then I'll leave him a message, as round here there's a couple who can do the funstions pretty good, Misza et al, if he doesn't come back in time. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Usage Notices

It seems that the usage template, which is not included in transclusioning, can sometimes differ from the actual usage, like the block templates. So, I think that the actual usage template should be subst'd on the template page, and then fixed to conform with the template it's talking about. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 18:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Where to redirect

On the overview page, when it lists where to redirect, what do the new sections with the number 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 mean? TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 18:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

They're just arbitrary page breaks otherwise you're editing one monster page. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism Templates for WP:UW

Hope you don't mind TeckWiz, but I copied your post over from my talk page, as it's quite a pertinant discussion, and needs the whole projects input.

Since we have separated test templates and vandalism templates, I don't see why we should have a vandalism level 0. If you can't give it above a 0, it's really a test, not vandalism, as current guidelines state to start at level 2 for nonsense and such. I personally don't even think there should be a vand1, but other users do so it should stay. I think there should be no level 0 for other types of vandalism also, like blanking. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 18:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The reason (in my opinion) that we have level 0 with the new system for all templates is that we have to assume good faith with first time editors. I know it's contradictory to AGF with someone who has just left "I love Doris" on a page. But if we at first have concilatory tones try to educate someone about their expected composure whilst editing, then we might just get another good editor out it. I know it's a pain in the proverbial after a night of RCP'ing where one just assumes the worst in every editor. We have to take the moral high ground, and be always reasonable to new editors. But as soon as someone has one level0 warning on their page, that's it, they've been told and it's open season if they choose to vandalise again. I also believe it's important that you add this for the npa warnings, because as soon as we deviate from the new layout then we are just negatiing the reason for having a new system and are just recreating the old, with a varied system of warnings. Would appreciate other members thoughts here please. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Deal-killing issue

All of this work is admirable, but there is something that is going to cause massive problems when this is implemented, and may even cause all of these templates to be rolled back: The proposed list has the {{test0}}, {{test1}}, {{test2}}, {{test3}} and {{block}} scale, but it eliminates the {{test4}} level, making it equal to a current {{test5}}. Administrators who don't RC patrol, vandal patrollers coming back from wikibreaks, or even well-informed users already know that {{test4}} means final warning. Any attempts to change that are going to go against a deeply engraved grain, and may meet considerable resistance. It would be much easier to just keep {{test4}} and have the rest of the changes adjust to having one more level. Titoxd^(?!?) 22:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Test 4 will redirect to the new test3. See Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings/Overview#Redirect overview --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 22:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Then you are eliminating test2, which is equally as bad. Titoxd^(?!?) 22:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

New names for templates

The problem of level changing (agreeing with Tixtoxd that changing from the levels we're all used to will create mistakes and have huge pushback), plus the difficult implementation problems, are solved if the new templates are all installed at new names. That way the old ones can be slowly deprecated over time, as the migration process may take months, given number of people, not to mention programs, used to them. Redirecting existing testN templates to other existing testN templates is asking for trouble. We might use creativity to come up with new pithy names, or use a new common prefix, such as "uw-". —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-29 23:03Z