Talk:Médecins Sans Frontières/Archive 1

Requested move

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Support

1. This is the area for the proposed move of the article to Doctors Without Borders. I think it should be moved because that's how most of the English world knows it as. I vote move. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 18:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
2. Support. Doctors without borders it should be! -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
3. Support. Article names should reflect the widespread English usage. AlbertR 22:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
4. Support move. Niteowlneils 02:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC) Second choice is Medecins Sans Frontieres (no diacritics). Niteowlneils 23:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
5. Support. I don't think I'd even heard the other term before; I'd only know what it meant due to its similarity to Spanish. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:55, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
6. Weakly support. It is known by both names in Australia. – AxSkov (☏) 07:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
7. Support. "Doctors Without Borders" is much more common in media use in my experience. Jonathunder 21:05, 2005 August 21 (UTC)
8. Support English Subtitle 18:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. Might be worth noting that nobody uses the English abbreviation, DWB, only MSF. In the mid-late 1990s MSF-USA started a rebranding effort to try to get everyone to start using their French name, but ran into a brick wall with the American press. Some American publications like the New York Times have a strict policy of translating every foreign word into English. Cyanide987 11:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
2. Oppose. Speaking from English Canada here, and I'm quite familiar with both versions in English usage. I know several individuals who are involved with this group, and they tend to use the term Médecins sans Frontières. This seems to be reflected in their websites both for English Canada and the UK Canadian MSF site UK MSF site
3. Oppose the move, although not particularly strongly - it's always known as MSF (in the UK), and that's also the primary/original name. This may be the English WP, but that doesn't necessarily make MSF an unsuitable article title. sjorford →•← 12:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
4. Oppose, it's known as MSF, it should stay there. 132.205.3.20 17:42, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
5. Strongly oppose; always, always known as MSF, except in the States, seemingly. Same should go for RSF, too. James F. (talk) 01:09, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
6. Oppose — I've heard both names in the Australian media, which as a rule has less appetite for foreign-language phrases than (for instance) the UK, but Médecins sans Frontières does seem to be the official name. -- Perey 12:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
7. Stongly oppose, I am English and have never seen it written in the translated form Op. Deo 07:57, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
8. Oppose. I agree with sjorford's comments, the UK name is Médecins Sans Frontières, although the accents are sometimes omitted in the UK press. CS Miller 18:26, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
9. Oppose But I would like the name to be accentless Medecins Sans Frontieres Philip Baird Shearer 21:08, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
10. Oppose. UK media use Médecins sans Frontières, see comment below. I have never seen "Doctors Without Borders" as the name. Telsa 10:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
11. Oppose. MSF has a redirect from DWB already. There is no confusion about its official name. Ancheta Wis 00:08, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Dragons flight 14:47, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

So then, in the UK, Australia and other English-speaking areas, the group is known as Médecins sans Frontières rather than "Doctors Without Borders"? That is the impression being given in this entry. Shouldn't the redirection go the other way in the English-language Wikipedia-- not of course in the Wikipédie. Wetman 12:41, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Pretty much. In the UK media at least the accent marks are omitted -- Medecins Sans Frontieres -- though not by the UK branch of the organisation itself; this may just be a matter of house style at Reuters UK. Thus Médecins Sans Frontières is the primary international and international-English name of MSF and Medecins sans Frontieres and Doctors Without Borders are alternative names used in the UK and USA respectively (and elsewhere in the English speaking world). If MSF were called Doctors Without Borders across the English speaking world then that would be the appropriate title for en-Wikipedia; but it isn't, so it ain't. Stating that Doctors Without Borders is the American English name for MSF should help clear the issue. Acanon

I'm from Australia and I know it as Doctor Without Borders. - Mark 11:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Canada and I know it as Doctors Without Borders. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 22:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

MSF is known by both Medesins San Frontieres (note: without accents) and Doctors Without Borders in Australia, as indicated in the media and by MSF's website. I would support a move to Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders), but that's just a compromise suggestion. I would also support a move to Medecins Sans Frontieres, which doesn't use the accents. – AxSkov (☏) 07:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Canada, and it is known as Médecins Sans Frontières and Doctors Without Borders. 132.205.3.20 17:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Strongly oppose. The predominant use of the name is Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) throughout all its operational centers and partner sections. It's adopted by the MSF International Council in about the early 90s. The US section is the only English-speaking sections that would carry both the name in French and English (Doctors Without Borders) in the press release or publication, and even that, French should come before English. All the other sections, in Australia, Canada, Hong Kong and even the UK office sticks to its name – Médecins Sans Frontìères.

Although this is an English platform, the page should remain as it is right now – Médecins Sans Frontières.

If there should be any redirection, it should be Doctors Without Borders to Médecins Sans Frontières.

Sorry - Just not too sure how i can add my comment on the discussion area... :P --Pinguis 07:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

To support the parent comment about "even the UK", here are pointers to The Guardian newspaper's style guide for things beginning with D [1] and M [2] as examples of a UK broadsheet usage (it uses Médecins Sans Frontières and does not even mention Doctors Without Borders). The BBC use Médecins Sans Frontières (although often without the accents on the website): a quick search of their website finds multiple mentions of that and a mention of Doctors Without Borders only in an interview with someone from America. Telsa 10:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Just because it's the official name doesn't mean that's the one we use. Wikipedia policy is to use the name that most people in that language would refer to it as. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 05:05, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Of course because its the official name we use it. We don't list the CIA as "the Agency", or the FBI as "the Bureau" or "Men in Black". Moreover, as mentioend above, the term is used predominantly only in America, as opposed to Australia, Canada, and Great Britain. Theres no reason to make it American-centric. SiberioS 16:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps we should find precendent in the nomenclature of Côte d'Ivoire, which was formerly known as "Ivory Coast" in the US and, I assume, often translated to the local vernacular around the world. As of 1985 the gov't of Côte d'Ivoire has requested that it not be translated, to mixed international acceptance. Therefore I believe that we should make the title of the article "Médecins Sans Frontières" and then have Doctors Without Borders redirect.JD79 23:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Other talk page stuff

Médecins Sans Frontières was created in 1971 by a small group of French doctors, I'd love to see some names attached to that as I've seen them mentioned around the Internet before - with luck we could even wikilink some names. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 21:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's the story of the founding: [3] Their names are in there. 01:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little bit concerned by the implication that Cholera vaccination is something that is carried out routinely. The Mozambique vaccinations were a trial, which proved very effective but the organisation has not yet changed it's intervention protocols to include it as standard. chebizarro 24:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Photo editorializing

It seems like there's some editorializing going on here with the photos. For instance Image:Starved_girl.jpg doesn't seem to be directly related to the content of the article. If it showed someone suffering from kwashiorkor being treaded by MSF doctors then it would be more deserving of inclusion. Theshibboleth 12:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it does relate to the paragraph it is attached to as it purports to be a photo of a child suffering from severe acute malnutrition during the Biafran civil war, which was the conflict that saw the birth of MSF. --193.133.69.201 11:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Percentage of aid given by governments

I went to a lecture about MSF at King's College (Guy's Campus) a fortnight back where surgeons who worked for MSF had a debate; during this they stated that MSF takes approx 45% of it's aid from governmental sources; not as appears on this wiki.Fishystick 00:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move redux

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Support

1. Support English title for an English page. --English Subtitle 18:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Support - 1st: the Naming Conventions for English titles was specifically created for this type of circumstance, IMHO. 2nd: the English title is more common: The French gets 860,000 ghits with English only search; the English gets 1,010,000 ghits (the links won't work unless you set up your preferences for English search only) - and even then, the search still picks up some non-English links. 3rd: The English title is the primary USA website: [4]. 4th: you'll notice every single other interwiki link translates the title into its own language. This seems to be a no-brainer: the title is more common in English, it's specified under WP:NC, and there is ample precedent under the other languages. Patstuart^talk|edits 19:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Support per nomination and arguments above. —  AjaxSmack  19:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

   Support per above. --Bob 23:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

4. Support I never heard of the french version before but Doctors without borders is very well known and this is the english wiki afterall. 205.157.110.11 02:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
5. Reluctant support as an informed person aware of both names, I would like to keep the current name; but there is a "use English" policy, and for me the fact that all of the other wikis are using their native rather than the French name is decisive. --Groggy Dice T | C 05:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Support When the organization itself uses the English version in their website (doctorswithoutborders.org), I think that makes it easily qualify as the most common and arguably official English usage of the name. Per Pat Stuart's entire argument. --Serge 00:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

   great point, serge! I think more of the oppose votes should take the website's name into consideration. It is how this organization presents itself to the English speaking world. For the consideration of the English Wikipedia, we should take that into account. 205.157.110.11 03:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

   To read the above comment, one would think that http://www.msf.org/ was written in French. It's not. It's in English, and it is the default international site for readers who aren't going to a particular country's MSF. Now, go to http://doctorswithoutborders.org/ and what does the title bar of your browser say? "MSF-USA." That is the American website. "Doctors Without Borders" is how they present themselves to America, and that's it. In every other English speaking nation, they are primarily or exclusively "Médecins Sans Frontières". So no, they are not presenting themselves to the English speaking world as DWB. Go to http://www.uk.msf.org/ and find "Doctors Without Borders" somewhere on that page. You won't, because in the United Kingdom they are MSF, and MSF is how they present themselves to the English speaking world, sans America. — coelacan talk — 05:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

   If the article name were MSF, you might have a point. But the article name is currently not MSF, nor is it an English term, yet there is an appropriate English term for this topic. For crying out loud, there are letters in the current name that aren't even in the English language alphabet. Opposition to a foreign language title for any article in the English Wikipedia when there clearly exists an English term that is commonly used to refer to the article topic (see "google test" in Discussion section below) makes no sense. --Serge 05:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

7. Support, use English when the English variant is available and well known. What's with all the people who think it is perfectly okay for otehr languages to spell people, places, and things in their own language, but will not admit that English names are perfectly logical in an English encyclopedia? Gene Nygaard 04:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose - We don't call Champs Elysées Elysian fields. The website URL is msf.org and that's French, their logo is in French as well. Re google hits, i am sure everybody is aware of duplicated entries and mirror sites. -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 19:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

   Yes, except, if you look at my URLs, you will notice that I purposefully made sure we didn't have crossovers. ;) -Patstuart^talk|edits 20:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

2. Oppose per arguments at previous RM. The French version is the official title of the organization, the only version used by the UK media, and (apparently) a common usage in Australia and Canada as well. Tevildo 03:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

   That's irrelevant here. The usage standards of the U.K. media and (apparently) in Australia and Canada are not those of the English Wikipedia, which is to use the English version when one exists that is commonly used to reference the subject of the article. --Serge 04:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

3. Oppose Changing vote to oppose as I feel that this organisation falls into the same category as the Académie française, FIFA, Champs Elysées and the Côte d'Ivoire amongst others in that the French name is so widely used and known so that it comes under the exception clause. --Bob 07:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
   • But what about the fact that the native language is used in every other wikilink that exists? (there are a bunch). That's not true for any of the other articles you just gave. Patstuart^talk|edits 17:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Oppose (still); same reasoning as I gave in 2005. We don't use Anglicised titles merely because they exist. The title "DWB" doesn't exist in Europe, AFAICT, but "MSF" definitely is used in the Americas. James F. (talk) 13:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
   • Actually, we do prefer anglicized titles if they exist: WP:NC#Use_English_words says to do so unless the native form is more commonly recognized, which I believe I've shown it's not. At best, it's tied. -Patstuart^talk|edits 17:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
5. Oppose. This is the English Wikipedia, but it is not the American Wikipedia, and there are more English speakers outside of America than within. So how do other English speakers refer to the organization? The Guardian (United Kingdom), the Sydney Morning Herald (Australia), the Mail & Guardian (South Africa) call it "Médecins Sans Frontières". The Toronto Star (Canada) uses both, with MSF first, so we'll call Canada neutral. The rest of the world outweighs America. I can also show MSF being used in Italy, Greece, and India, all in English newspapers, if that's important to anyone. The point is that International English uses MSF, Canada is on the fence, and only American English favors DWB. If this is the English Wikipedia, then MSF is a clear win. — coelacan talk — 01:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Oppose I generally get irritated at all the foreign language usage on En.wiki. However, I did research for a think tank (American) on Médecins Sans Frontières work in Africa and found that, in general, in the English-speaking world outside of the US, and in the professional world in the US MSF or Médecins Sans Frontières is what is used. This as title would be a courtesy to users who, seeing that Doctors without Borders is the redirect and the article is titled Médecins Sans Frontières, might lead them to do plenty of research in English on the French title. KP Botany 03:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

   No one is arguing that Doctors without Borders is the more common usage (at least not outside of the U.S.) even in English-speaking countries. The entire support argument is based on the premise that Doctors without Borders is the English term that is most commonly used to refer to the subject of this article, and that the current title is not English. When there is a way to refer to the subject of an article in English, that's what the name of the English Wikipedia is supposed to be. The current title is not English, it could be, so it should be. --Serge 04:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

7. Oppose. Médecins Sans Frontières is by far the more notable name. I usually come across that name both in conversations and in media reporting. I have barely ever heard Doctors without borders used. As pointed out above, the Champs Elysées are not known as the Elysian fields. The same logic appears to me to apply here. WJBscribe ^{(WJB talk)}

   The Champs Elysées are not known as the Elysian fields. But the Médecins Sans Frontières are known as the Doctors without Borders. That's the difference. --Serge 04:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In America. That's the difference. — coelacan talk — 05:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

One should probably keep in mind that any resolution concerning this page would probably also affect Médecins du Monde (MDM), also created by Bernard Kouchner as a splinter group from MSF. Lapaz

Google Test results

Results 1 - 20 of about 866,000 English pages for "Médecins Sans Frontières"
Results 1 - 20 of about 1,040,000 English pages for "doctors without borders".

--Serge 00:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)