Template talk:Largest cities of Israel

Jerusalem

Of course, "Jerusalem" is not Israeli. West-Jerusalem is, and then we must consider that Israel expanded the "Jerusalem" area definition into East-Jerusalem, and beyond the earlier UN area. But still, these extensions are not Israeli. -DePiep (talk) 22:43, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Neutral representation of the listing of the largest cities in Israel

There is currently a discussion related to the content of this template at Talk:Israel#Neutral representation of the listing of the largest cities in Israel. Please contribute. GregKaye 00:25, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Wrong place. Should be elsewhere. Israel? Japan? -DePiep (talk) 20:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

RfC on Jerusalem

A discussion at talk:Israel didn't come to a clear conclusion and there is some edit waring over Jerusalem.

Given that Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is rejected by most of the international community, and that there is currently no available number on population of western Jerusalem alone, how in your opinion should Jerusalem be presented in this template ? A few options were proposed so far:

• Jerusalem
• West Jerusalem
• Jerusalem (west)
• Remove Jerusalem from the list entirely
• Something else ?

“WarKosign” 09:07, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments

• Support to remove Jerusalem from the list entirely. No part of Jerusalem is internationally recognized as part of Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• support the first option: Jerusalem (a) Ykantor (talk) 21:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I am putting Jerusalem in bold so Ykantor's vote is not missed. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 15:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Something else West Jerusalem — If all that we have for population statistics is the combined numbers, then put "West Jerusalem (including East Jerusalem, not internationally recognised as Israeli territory)" or something along those lines. This is the usual name for the Israeli portion of Jerusalem. The footnotes also get across the point that the territories are considered occupied in a quick and easy manner. If there's a similar list for Palestine, then for the sake of fairness, you could use either the East Jerusalem number (if it exists anywhere) or the total estimate again and get across the idea in a footnote, (or parenthesis if you can make it short enough) as we have here that the whole city is controlled by Israel, but sovereignty over the eastern half isn't recognised internationally. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 4 Adar 5775 21:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

TL;DR: sidetrack

fairness, do you mean 'correctness'? -DePiep (talk) 22:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC) A loaded term like fairness was an unwise choice of words on my part. I should have said to keep things balanced. As unfortunate as it is, the nature of the Conflict makes it so that generally the Israeli-related and Palestinian-related articles require the same treatment so as to maintain an unquestionable NPOV (except by those not operating by the standards laid out in Wikipedia policy. It would be nice if neither were a source of controversy, but that's not the world we live in. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 5 Adar 5775 02:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Have you noticed the footnote in the examples above ? Is it insufficient in your opinion ? “WarKosign” 22:28, 23 February 2015 (UTC) I have, and for whatever reason I didn't associate the footnote with being part of the final product. That is my mistake and no, I would say it's brief and to the point, so it is more than sufficient. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 5 Adar 5775 02:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC) I do not doubt you good intention. But let me note that writing 'Conflict' (capitalised or not) is a, say, cultural approach too ;-). I agree, its difficult & subtle. Maybe leave it out altogether is a solution here, it's just a country after all. -DePiep (talk) 10:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Ha, I was just making a general comment there about the unfortunate nature of the world we live in and not proposing the term be used here at all. I don't know of any other name for it and so I must use it. This is probably one of my favourite cities in the world and it's always peaceful when we are there for our yearly two drunken nights of eating at the Armenian Tavern, drinking at Bar Putin and Zoli's, and dancing at Toybar, and the following mornings of relaxing at the Austrian Hospice and eating schnitzel (now that's a pilgrimage). So the usual fighting in Wikipedia over the city (not saying anyone in this thread is guilty of that) is something that bugs me. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 5 Adar 5775 15:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC) Request to everyone —I'd also like to request that everyone who comments here please leave your personal feelings, emotions, sense of right and wrong and everything else out of it. Please base your choices (even if you don't like them) on Wikipedia policy and policy alone as is the duty of every Wikipedian. If you feel you can't do that, then maybe consider the possibility that it might be best to bow out of this discussion entirely. I request this of people on both sides of the issue and everyone in between. Thank you. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 4 Adar 5775 21:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC) Something else I am not sure on this one yet. Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem is not recognized, however, many newspapers etc. seem to treat the western part as Israeli so it could then be included. If so, it should be added that sovereignty is not recognized or something similiar and that it includes occupied East Jerusalem. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC) West Jerusalem I'm changing to that and a link to it could be included. Include a note about it not being recognized, and if figures include East Jerusalem, add that it includes that occupied part. Controlling something does not mean that you own it. Israel controls but it does not own it. If and how much they should is an issue in the negotiations but right now, their sovereignty is not recognized and when it comes to the eastern part, it is strongly rejected. --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• West Jerusalem preferred. In any situation it must be clear that "Jerusalem" (municipality, 1948, 1967, UN area, ...) is not a city in Israel/Israeli city. -DePiep (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Jerusalem or Jerusalem (west). It must be clarified (for example with a footnote, as is in each of the proposals above) that the number includes East Jerusalem, and that East Jerusalem is nearly universally not recognized as a legal part of Israel. I object to "West Jerusalem" because of this clarification; otherwise the clarification would read that West Jerusalem includes East Jerusalem which is nonsense. “WarKosign” 22:28, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Jerusalem As much as opponents of Israeli control state that Jerusalem is not a part of Israel, it is. Israel controls it and therefore owns it. There is a difference between "should own it", which is the argument against Israel controlling Jerusalem, and who actually owns it, which is Israel. The debate is over who should own it, not who actually owns it. Since Israel claims Jerusalem as its capital, Jerusalem should appear in its entirety as one of Israel's largest cities. There should be a footnote stating that control of Jerusalem is disputed, however. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

It's not about "owning". Jerusalem is not in Israel. Therefor it is not Israeli. An encyclopedia must write that. -DePiep (talk) 09:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The template is called "Largest cities of Israel". Jerusalem is arguably not in Israel, but it is administered by Israel and populated by Israel, so it can reasonably be considered to be of Israel. “WarKosign” 09:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

No reason to do so. That would add confusion to the encyclopedia, instead of clarifying the situation. starters, all other tempaltes are "Cities of" Keep it about "Israeli cities" and specify the Jerusalem partition. We should even consider the top comment here by Supreme Deliciousness. -DePiep (talk) 10:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

It is part of Israel whether it should be or not. You can say that Jerusalem should not be part of Israel, but you can't say that Jerusalem is not part of Israel. The template is for cities of Israel, so Jerusalem as a whole should be in the template. The partition and any international recognition is irrelevant. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• I support West Jerusalem or remove Jerusalem from the list entirely. I would also support a superscript note explaining the position of the Israeli Government on Jerusalem, and I would hyperlink West Jerusalem. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 15:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Jerusalem; the "it is not part of Israel" selection does not conform with internal sources who calculate demographics for the State of Israel.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: Actually, West Jerusalem isn't recognized as Israeli either. There exists a sort of consensus that as a part of an agreement with the Palestinians, Israel is likely to get West Jerusalem, but as it is now, no country (AFAIK) has recognized West Jerusalem as Israeli, and certainly the majority hasn't. See e.g. "Whither Jerusalem" by Hirsch, Housen-Couriel and Lapidot at page 17: "west Jerusalem (...) most states have not recognized its sovereignty there". --Dailycare (talk) 19:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Remove Jerusalem - no nation recognizes any part of Jerusalem as being in Israel. While Israel has forcefully taken control of the city, pushed out many natives, moved many of their nationals into the city, and as RightCowLeftCoast says, they pretend that it is their city, this does not actually make the city in Israel any more than Ariel is in Israel. 70.50.123.188 (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Taken control of the city means that Israel owns it. What other countries say is irrelevant. Jerusalem should be in the template. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 02:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

No serious scholar in the world would claim that a country whose military controls a city is necessarily the owner. 70.50.123.188 (talk) 03:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, that is not true. There is a difference between de facto and de jure control. De facto control is who actually owns the territory, in this case Israel owns Jerusalem. De Jure control is who "should" control the territory, which is up for debate. The Crimea article lists Crimea as part of Russia because Russia has de facto of it. The same should be said for Jerusalem. Jerusalem is part of Israel. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 04:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually Ariel is a good example. Ariel is almost always listed as an illegal Israeli settlement/town. “WarKosign” 05:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

sidetrack

Oh, what a tangled thread we weave... Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 8 Adar 5775 06:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Flinders Petrie, given your earlier good advise to keep this topic clean & serious, this edit and your elaborate sign are self-contradicting. I myself can skip such distractions mostly, but why not you clean up your own act first? Just keep it to the topic, please. -DePiep (talk) 20:35, 27 February 2015 (UTC) DePiep, apologies, I was trying to get what I was saying away from the old saying about a tangled web, which usually refers to lies (Oh, what a tangled web we weave). I was not trying to imply that there was any lying on anyone's part at all, but rather say that this whole conversation is becoming a lot more complicated than it needs to be and it runs the risk of getting bogged down and tangled up in minor points that people fight over with increasing ferocity. I was being quite serious in this sentiment thing I never said anything about people having to be entirely serious in this discussion (as situation appropriate humour is a part of most serious academic discussions) so as to avoid people getting upset. I am not entirely sure what you mean by my elaborate sign though unless you're referring to my signature which I have used for the last three or four years. All that said, I would also like to politely remind you to assume good faith in dealing with other editors (especially ones you might not know very well) rather than becoming unnecessarily hostile as such behaviour can only lead to problems. Politely replying to other people is how we avoid this. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 8 Adar 5775 23:58, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment, this whole topic has already been discussed at Talk:Israel#Neutral representation of the listing of the largest cities in Israel. I think that the whole template is flawed. At the same time that the Israeli government unilaterally declared Jerusalem to be "complete and united" it also declared places like Bnai Brak and a number of other urban areas within the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area to be "cities". This may well have been done for the simple reason of presenting information such as this with Jerusalem topping the list. On the [[1]] all of the "cities" in the "Tel Aviv" and "Central" districts can logically be considered to be suburbs of Tel Aviv and this goes to account for greatly thriving nature of the city centre.

The previous discussion (not referenced in the introduction to this thread) also gave indication of the Israeli presentation in this document of "urban areas" and yet WarKosign changed the template presentation to "cities" here. Given the lack of a reference made here to the previous discussion, a reference simply to edit warring and not to edit warring against views presented in previous discussion and the recent change made to "cities" not even getting a mention in this thread, I find it extremely difficult to assume good faith here. I honestly think that it is things similar to this that sadly perpetuates giving Israel a bad name. GregKaye 13:27, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The second word of the RfC description links to the previous discussion. I also left a note at talk:Israel for everybody interested to comment here, as you apparently did. All the "urban areas" in question are cities, so by changing it to "urban areas" you reduced the clarity without any clear improvement. I asked you before: do you need me to find sources that prove that each of these "urban areas" is a city and not a town or a village ?

It is not our place to question how Israel manages its municipal divisions. As a taxpayer I find it grossly inefficient to have tens of tiny cities instead of several big ones, but here we don't create the reality, we represent what the sources tell us about it. “WarKosign” 14:56, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign, People here are certainly trying to create realities if they want to present Jerusalem, in Wikipedia's voice, as being the largest city in possession of Israel when this flies directly in the face of the legal views of both the international community and the Palestinian people. The last internationally accepted view was that it was meant to be an international city. The current situation of the template presents an outrageous and one sided POV.

WarKosign, can you say clearly that your change in template description was not made with the motivation and purpose of including Jerusalem "whole and united" within the Wikipedia template listing?

It is our place to present realities and, on this basis, the template really should go as. At best, it presents a very twisted view of reality. The largest conurbation by far is of Tel Aviv. It is the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area. None of Jerusalem is internationally considered as being in Israel. The template is, as far as I can see it, Wikipedia at its worst. It is being used, as far as I see it, to push a view of a current possession of territory which was taken by force of arms. We cannot use Wikipedia's voice to state possession until that possession has been agreed. WarKosign, can you not see that this is a most basic issue of NPOV? GregKaye 18:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: This RfC will hopefully determine what is NPOV regarding Jerusalem in this template.

My change (or rather revert of your change) had nothing to do with Jerusalem being "whole or united" or not. If all the entities in the list are cities, the list's title should say so. You want to bundle Tel Aviv with its suburbs to create some city-like entity that would be larger than Jerusalem, however the source does not support it. Tel Aviv district is larger than Jerusalem district, and this is what Districts of Israel says. Jerusalem is considered by CBS to be the largest city. “WarKosign” 20:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign, the reality is that the urban areas of the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area are bundled together. That is how the geography of the area very clearly works and, as the topic is demographics (and not political division), the main issue is the natural gathering of people.

On the issue of cities, would you define West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem as being individually defined as cities? Within the historical context of locations including East Berlin and West Berlin and many other locations on WP's List of divided cities this may be possible but, if not, can you see that your change at this particular time to "cities" at the same time as your !voting for the use of an entry of "Jerusalem" in the listing, fits with the description of WP:TENDENTIOUS editing? We have to go by what is internationally recognised in this matter. Again, we cannot use Wikipedia's voice to state possession until that possession has been agreed.

To be clear I don't necessarily want to bundle anything. My personal opinion is that the template is misleading regarding realities on the ground and would best be deleted. GregKaye 20:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm very well aware of geography of Gush Dan and agree it would make much more sense to organize them as a small number of large localities rather than current 254 (mostly) tiny localities. This is the current reality, however.

Reality on the ground is that East and West Jerusalem are managed as a single locality. In Gush Dan you can see differently styled street signs as you cross the street from one city to another, while in Jerusalem you (or at least I) have no visual clues to which side of the city you're in. More importantly, the source we are using for the city population numbers handles them this way.

We do not have to go by what is internationally recognized, this RfC is to determine what do we have to go by - some opinions are to follow the international de-juro recognition, while others support representing the de-facto reality.

My restoration of the template's title is no more WP:TENDENTIOUS than your changing it.“WarKosign” 21:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign, as you know, that first change of the template title was accompanied by the talk page edit:

• "Largest urban areas of Israel
  

This, or similar, should be the rightful title of the template as this represents the content of the source material here. The content presents a list of "Urban localities". East Jerusalem is not internationally accepted as being in Israel."

My edit made direct referral to the single piece of source material used used in the template and there is a world of difference. "Urban localities", as per the source material, clearly fits with both "Jerusalem" and "West Jerusalem". You did not answer my question regarding the your view as to the applicability of your reverted "cities" wording. Would you define West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem as being individually defined as cities? GregKaye 21:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The source list Jerusalem as biggest of the "urban localities". I do not think there are sources saying that East and West Jerusalem are two separate cities (or urban localities). Many probably argue that they should be separate, but it's beside the point. The term "Urban localities" is not defined in the source, but since they are followed by "Rural localities" such as Moshavim and Kibbutzim it's quite obvious the designation means "Human settlements in Urban area", that is "cities, towns or conurbations". The list names only separate cities, so clearly it does not mean conurbations such as Gush Dan. It is technically correct to call any city an urban locality, but we should be using the most specific term possible. Otherwise might as well call them "artifacts" or "objects" - also correct but not specific enough terms. “WarKosign” 22:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign, Yes OR No? I twice asked a direct question. I made an edit within the context of open talk page discussion. You then go against the content of the talk page discussion without yourself adding comment and talk about edit warring. We should be using the terminologies that most directly represents the source content and, beyond this, editor original research is irrelevant. GregKaye 22:42, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Delete template or Remove Jerusalem or (secondarily) West Jerusalem. There is an article West Jerusalem. There is no article Jerusalem (west). GregKaye 13:32, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Jerusalem Jerusalem with the footnote is fine. It's not as if the stances of Israel and the UN on the subject aren't already ubiquitous on Wikipedia. Even if one does not support Israeli sovereignty over one part or another, Israel is currently the sovereign over it and there is an Israeli municipality. Reliable sources like the Associated Press[2], The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal have referred to Jerusalem as Israel's largest. Add a footnote and call it a day. --Precision123 (talk) 20:44, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Israeli is currently not the sovereign, please stick to the facts, and your argument that precision is unimportant for an encyclopedia is hilarious. 70.50.123.188 (talk) 21:46, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

De facto is key here. And sources use facts. This is much ado about nothing. --

You may want to read Sovereignty#De jure and de facto “WarKosign” 22:26, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

NPOV, as with everything in Wikipedia, is key here. Israel says that Jerusalem is Israel's by whatever right it may be. The international community and the Palestinians say otherwise.

Precision123, we can't take sides. We can't say, before agreement has been reached, that it belongs to Israel, the State of Palestine or anyone else. Media "reliable sources" may be regarded as being hasty in there agreement with what entities unilaterally say. For instance, very shortly after ISIL self declared themselves as Islamic State and despite the fact that great swathes of the Islamic world regarded them to be un-Islamic and the international community universally regarded them as failing the standards of being regarded as a state, the news agency Reuters rapidly adopted unqualified reference to "Islamic State". They present themselves as the state for all of Islam. They have de facto control of territory including their purported "capital" Ar-Raqqah. I know that this is an even more extreme situation than that of Israel but would we say that a city like Mosul belongs to ISIL and not to Iraq? The ISIL article makes the issue of territorial control (occupation) apparent from the word go. The Israel article should keep things similarly clear. GregKaye 23:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Interesting that you bring that up, as the Wikipedia article on ISIL lists Mosul as its largest city, with absolutely no qualifications of the kid being contemplated here for Jerusalem. Some consistency , please I invented "it's not you, it's me" (talk) 00:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Precision123 (talk) 21:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Jerusalem We have to talk only about the facts here. So it's nothing to discuss: de facto Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

Everything else: de jure, "occupation", another side's claims, etc. may be added only to clarify already existing real situation.

Actually, the same situation was in 1948-1967. It's interesting that then UN & other international organisations haven't challenged Jordan for its occupation of East Jerusalem as well as of Judea & Samaria as a whole. :)

And incidentally, somebody are already talking here that "None of Jerusalem is internationally considered as being in Israel". I'd like to see the real RS confirming such exotic for me POV. --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Igorp_lj Take a look at the article Jerusalem Law. Israel unilaterally declared a united Jerusalem its capital and "For example, United Nations Security Council Resolution 478, adopted by 14 votes to none, with 1 abstention (United States), declared soon after that the law was "null and void" and "must be rescinded". This resolution called upon member states to withdraw their diplomatic missions from the city." Foreign embassies in Israel are based in Tel Aviv. Feel free to read around the topic. GregKaye 22:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)