Talk:Scotia

"Skadi"

People keep editing this article to state that "Scotia" comes from "Skadi" and that "Skadi" is supposedly a Pictish goddess. Neither of these two claims have any baring in reality, it's Neo-Pagan pseudo-history. "Skadi" is a figure from Norse mythology, "Scotia" was named so before Norse people were even known about in Scotland or Ireland or anywhere in the British Isles. There is absolutely no evidence that "Skadi" is a Pictish figure, or name. The fact is, we know absolutely nothing of what Pictish mythology may have been. But in any case the only place on earth "Skadi" exists is in Norse mythology. Someone who idolizes the Norse may try to say that the Norse brought their mythology with them when they settled in Scotland BUT Scotland was already called Scotia for over 500 years BEFORE the Norse even knew the place existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.97.110.77 (talk) 08:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

On Scotti, Scotia, and Scottish

Have you read this?? Please read this, it should summarize what can be said with certain and does not adopt the Irish-view-point disregarding logic and facts: «After the fall of the Roman Empire, the coasts on the Irish Sea were raided by pirates either from Eastern Ireland or Western Scotland (more likely, since those pirates were known as Scotia or Scots). They did gain power in Western Scotland, which since then has been viewed as having a Celtic nature, originated new small kingdoms, and reinforced the idea of a common origin and that Scotland was somehow populated (or re-populated) by Gaelic Irish.»GFlusitania (talk) 03:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

However, after the 11th century, Scotia, when Scotland was already stabilised as a nation-kingdom, was used mostly for northern Great Britain, and in this way became the fixed designation.

The Myth that the Scoti were pirates was invented in the 1500s, there are no records stating they were pirates.

Roman maps and records call the entire land Scotia, and the Gael peoples Scoti.

This is hard factual evidence that all of Ireland was called Scotland, meaning land of the Gaels.

The Scoti were classed as ( raiders ) by roman writers for there attacks on mainland Britannia, however never once referred to as pirates.

I believe the writer who referred to the Scoti as pirates was simply biased due to the nationalistic era Scotland was in between the 1300s and 1800s.

It is not wholly unreasonable to use the term 'pirate' to describe raiders coming out of the sea, although it may not correspond perfectly to stricter definitions in the context of, say, maritime security and international relations (arguably, somewhat anachronistic with reference the late-Roman period). Use of the term need not be seen as deliberately perjorative in relation to the raiders' place of origin, although it might of course communicate a germ of residual folk resentment, as we also find in reference to Saxons, Danes, Vikings, Border reivers and other interlopers.

JF42 (talk) 09:52, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Etymology

The etymology of "Scotia" part is complete and utter non-sense, I won't remove it yet because I don't have any account and I know it will be probably be restored. "Skadi" is definitely not a "Pictish goddess", there is nothing known about Pictish religion really. But "Skadi" is a figure from NORSE mythology, not Pictish - and before someone jumps in and says the Picts were really Norse or something they definitely are not - the little we know about their language is 100% in line with it being Brythonic.

Scotia

Question: Why the insistence (it's really copying and pasting from sources that don't not have much evidence to cosubstantiate the hypothesis) that Gaels were solely the dwellers of Ireland-Hibernia to the romans!- and that the travelled/invaded or whatever, Western Scotland during the last centuries of the Roman empire and later, and were then called Scotti/Scoti? So how come what is now Scotland was already called by the Romans, centuries before, Caledonia or Scotia-literally the land of Scotti-anyone? And how come the ancient Irish were already in Ireland before the settlement of Scotland took place? GFlusitania (talk) 03:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The opening two statements of this article are wrong. Scotia was never in the middle ages one fixed place. People would struggle much less with this word if they realized that it is just a Latin Possessed-Territory formation, a way of saying "Land of the Gaels." Scotia was used in the Middle Ages as Gaidhealtachd is used in the 21st century. They both mean the same descriptively; and like Scotia, Gaidhealtachd has obtained an official and fixed meaning whilst retaining something of a descriptive meaning. (i.e. the territory of Highland Council or the Highlands in general coincides with no linguistic frontier; likewise in Ireland).

Hence, it once could be used to mean Ireland, but the connotation is ethnic. This is how it is used, for instance, during the Scottish Wars of Independence and the Invasion of Ireland. The earliest users of the latin word Scotus (e.g., writers such as Ammianus Marcellinus and Prosper of Aquitaine) give no indication they are talking about a people either confined to Ireland or to northern Ireland/Dalriada. -- (said Calgacus who forgot to sign it).

Scotia seems to derive from the Greek "skotia" meaning "darkness". (example: 'Kai phos en to Skotia phanei, Kai skotia ouk Katelaven' And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot comprehend it. )

I read Scotia was originally the Latin name for Ireland, known to the Romans as Hibernia and wonder why Scotia rather than Hibernia or some Latinised form of Gàidhealtachd was used. Where did Scotia come from? Perhaps there was at the time an Irish origin myth linking Ireland to Egypt? Laurel Bush (talk) 13:51, 7 November 2008 (UTC) There seems to be a current trend (without clear facts) that claims Scotia and Hibernia were one and the same in the eyes of the Romans and that they used both terms. Scotia was a 'detached territory' from Ireland and Ireland is an island and the romans knew it well, they even navigated around Britannia. They knew Ireland/Hibernia and Britannia/GB were distinct islands, and in fact old maps from roman days or medieval maps will confirm this. The idea that Scotland and Medieval Ireland were one and the same, or that it was all the same people (cousins, family-related...are not the same!)and so they could call it Scotia and be done with it(see Isidore of Seville), surely comes from the age of the great migrations/invasions from the end of the Roman empire AD476 till 1000; pirates either from eastern Ireland or Western Scotland or both raided the cities by the Irish Sea and I have even read authors who claim that scots or scotii means pirates, which is obviously incoherent because the Romans, centuries before already named a tribe( possibly a pictish tribe) in what is now Scotland, Scotii, and another (or possibly the confederation of tribes), Caledonii, and the latter originated Caledonia!! Scotia must be related to Scotii and to Skadi, a pictish goddess.GFlusitania (talk) 03:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Greek?

Someone had stuck this, "Scotia seems to derive from the Greek Skotia meaning darkness ", in at the bottom of the page so ive moved it here for anyone who knows about this stuff to verify. ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 16:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It's nonsense. I think I've had to remove that from a few pages. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't say nonsense: Latin and Greek are the oldest languages in Europe, and I would not be surprised if there is more than a coincidence between the term in pictish/scotii (which is not exactly the same as irish-gaelic or scots-gaelic) and the greek term. It is worth investigating. Any greeks about to elucidate us, please?? GFlusitania (talk) 03:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

As I've found a reliable source suggesting it as a possiblity, I've put it back in. Dougweller (talk) 11:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Latin and Greek are NOT the oldest languages in Europe... all Indo-European languages by default are newcomers in the sense they post-date Pre-Indo-European languages; if anything, that honor goes to Basque. There may or may not be a link between Greek Σκωτία and "Scot-" but the fact that Latin and Greek are well attested early IE languages in itself is no proof.

Do we have some attestation of this word in Ancient Greek? Akerbeltz (talk) 18:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree Latin & Greek are not the oldest languages, but that has nothing to do with my finding a reliable source potentially linking Soctia to a Greek word. We don't need an attestation of the word in Ancient Greek, and the article isn't claiming that it is definitely derived from Greek. Dougweller (talk) 20:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

If some author proposes a Greek derivation, surely they're citing a non-modern form of Σκωτία? It may indeed be the same, I'm no expert on Greek, just asking. I have no objections to it being there - what I deleted was The Greek word for Scotland is Σκωτία (Skotía). Which makes no sense. If you want to say that author X suggests a link to Greek Σκωτία (Skotía), that's fine by me. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

We agree then. You were right to delete that. Dougweller (talk) 06:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Misleading intro?

Content under 'Etymology and the origins' states that in Latin texts the earliest use of the term Scotia was in reference to people from Ireland
The intro seems, however, to imply much earlier use, and to make no reference to Ireland
Laurel Bush (talk) 11:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully fixed. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 14:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Cheers
Laurel Bush (talk) 10:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Scotia/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

==Needs more work== Its an interesting article that needs more work by people who know about it. ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(Ταλκ) 17:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 05:36, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Kingdom of Alba - not Scotland

"From the 9th century, its meaning gradually shifted, so that it came to mean only the part of Britain lying north of the Firth of Forth: the Kingdom of Scotland."

Presumably this means not the 'Kingdom of Scotland' but rather 'the Kingdom of Alba, which was at that time commonly referred to in English as the Kingdom of Scotland' 78.150.38.110 (talk) 11:52, 23 February 2021 (UTC)