Talk:Jessica Yaniv

"Male waxing" wikilink

@CatCafe: Per the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, as the proponent of a disputed bold change, you should have taken it to the talk page rather than reverting again to your preferred version. For context, these are the diffs I am referring to:

Multidiff

19:22, 1 May 2021  Wisefroggy (talk | contribs): (Split opening run-on sentence into something more readable, sources say there is at least 15 complaints now, added source.) − after being refused [[waxing]] services + after they refused to wax her male [[genitalia]] 23:13, 1 May 2021  SreySros (talk | contribs): (rv to consensus version. "male genitalia" is inappropriate here.) − after they refused to wax her male [[genitalia]] + after being refused [[waxing]] services 02:27, 2 May 2021  CatCafe (talk | contribs): (they may or may not be so - but the wikilink needs correction) − after being refused [[waxing]] services + after being refused [[Male waxing | waxing]] services 02:49, 2 May 2021  SreySros (talk | contribs): (Undid revision 1020958996 by CatCafe (talk) I don't think that's necessary, accurate or appropriate. Sources vary in describing the services offered/sought/denied. Take it to talk.) − after being refused [[Male waxing | waxing]] services + after being refused [[waxing]] services 03:19, 2 May 2021  CatCafe (talk | contribs): (Undid revision. Don't know what Sources you're referring to, but the source used at the end of this sentence is titled "wax male genitalia", so the wlink is accurate to the source.) − after being refused [[waxing]] services + after being refused [[Male waxing|waxing]] services

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I don't understand why "male" keeps being inserted, either in explicit reference to a trans BLP subject's genitals or in this wikilink. Specifically, it is misleading to say that she was refused "male waxing" services. It implies that the parlors offered the services she was requesting and refused to provide them to her on the basis of her gender identity, which, according to the court finding, is not the case. Sources vary in description of the services requested/denied, but none of them use the term "male waxing". Srey Sros^talk 22:40, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wisefroggy: Please do not cast aspersions on other editors, as you did in this diff. Additionally, your comment is misdirected. I reverted your edit, not CatCafe. Srey Sros^talk 22:52, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wisefroggy, regarding this diff: This time you got the right person at least, but you are still casting aspersions. Please remember to assume good faith and refrain from making personal attacks. Srey Sros^talk 23:07, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

See also the globalnews.ca source, currently source 5 in the article, which notes that she was additionally refused arm and leg waxing by the salons. Srey Sros^talk 01:50, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I say we follow MOS:ID and MOS:GENDERID. We should avoid describing Yaniv, or any of her body parts, using incorrect gender terms. Our policies are clear that we shouldn't necessarily follow what reliable sources are saying when it comes to transgender people and should use paraphrasing or eliding in quotes to avoid misgendering.

Since genital waxing is a major part of Yaniv's notability, we should bring it up in the lead. I would prefer we use genital waxing to describe the procedure; I trust our readers to understand how the term, in close juxtaposition with transgender, could generate a controversial situation. If other editors want to be more clear about it, there is no reason we couldn't use scrotum and penis, since Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED.

I would object to linking male waxing solely on the basis that Wikipedia should avoid misgendering. There's also little a reader needs from that page in order to understand this one. Linking to just waxing could explain the term to unfamiliar readers, who do not additional details on which oils to use or unsourced explanations of the benefits. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

She is "best known" for her genitalia in this context and this sentence. If you want to bang on about her legs and arms them it's for the body. She talks about her 'male genitalia' in interviews and is open about this, so she has no problem mentioning this, but you seem to be offended on her behalf SreySros. CatCafe (talk) 04:46, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Please refrain from casting aspersions or making personal attacks. "Male genitalia" is a euphemism at best and an offensive canard at worst, and it is particularly improper for Wikipedia to assign a gender to a trans BLP subject's genitals. I don't think it's accurate to say that she is "best known" for her genitalia in this context and this sentence. She is best known for the lawsuits she's filed and the ensuing controversy. As for how we should introduce this in the lead, it is not accurate to say (as you have in several of your reverts) that she was denied scrotum waxing services or male waxing services. There are two issues with those wordings.

1. The salons in question did not offer "male waxing" services, that's the entire point of the lawsuit. Given that the issue at hand here is a mismatch between services offered and services requested, unless we want to spell it out explicitly (which we certainly don't want to do in the lead sentence of the article) it seems like the best option to simply say that she was denied waxing services.
2. Additionally, while much of the media hype was focused on the pubic hair waxing aspect of the case, it is important to note that the salons refused to provide any waxing services to her. The version that I suggest here (and the version that has been stable for many months in the article) encompasses this neatly.

I appreciate that you've chosen to engage here rather than continuing to revert on the article, and I hope we can reach a consensus here. Srey Sros^talk 05:09, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Considering you just accused me of ”casting aspersions or making personal attacks" when I did no such thing, then they will be no reasoning with you. Please refrain from engaging with me again just to be provocative. Bye. CatCafe (talk) 05:17, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to be going anywhere productive. Let's get some other eyes on this. I'm pinging the ten most recent authors of non-minor edits to the article: @Tlhslobus, McPhail, TimSmit, BrxBrx, Super Goku V, MagicatthemovieS, Newimpartial, TheKing'sMongrelSon, Thivierr, and Bradv: I apologize for the notification. If you have any thoughts, I would appreciate your input on this wording dispute. Srey Sros^talk 05:48, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

On a purely factual basis, Yaniv did not bring the lawsuit purely because she was refused genital waxing services. Per the decision here, the complaint concerned refusal to provide genital/arm/leg waxing services (albeit the genital waxing has clearly had more focus in the media). So the current wording of the lede is inaccurate. How about changing "after they refused to wax her male genitalia" to "after they variously refused to wax her scrotum, arms, and legs"? I don't think "scrotum" is a loaded term. McPhail (talk) 08:11, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

It goes against WP:ASTONISH to describe a woman as having "male genitalia", so we shouldn't be saying anything of the sort here, regardless of how the subject describes herself. Is it clear what specific waxing Yaniv wanted? If so, describe it (not in graphic detail, but "waxing of the [body part A] and [body part B]" or whatever. (It might make sense to do this only in the body, not the lead.) If not, just "waxing" or "genital waxing" (ungendered) is correct. — Bilorv (talk) 07:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't normally want to get involved in this discussion, but I have been asked above for my opinion, so briefly here it is. I think the current version is fine, as it is easily understood by readers, and is clearly backed by the headlines of 3 reliable sources summarizing the tribunal conclusions. Earlier less explicit versions make it much harder for the reader to understand what the dispute is about, and make it much more likely that they will form a misleading impression of the nature of the dispute. Incidentally, I don't think the average reader will be astonished or confused by 'her male genitalia' in the context of an untransitioned transgender woman - otherwise we would have to shut down the entire encyclopedia on the basis that some readers might be astonished by learning of possibilities that had not previously occurred to them. On the other hand the average reader may well be confused as to why waxing services were being refused if we omit those reliably sourced words (an omission which would seem, at least to me, to be contrary to WP:NOTCENSORED). The only way to reduce the mild astonishment of a few such readers without censoring the information to which readers are entitled would seem to be to replace 'her' by 'his', which would understandably be deemed astonishingly offensive by many other readers and editors, and might also cause the sort of dispute that leads to considerable unnecessary damage to Wikipedia's ability to retain editors. Tlhslobus (talk) 12:48, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I've been pinged for my opinion so here goes - from what I gathered from the sources reporting on this topic, the locus of the dispute between the applicant and the respondents was on the refusal of these salons to provide waxing services based on the applicant's genitalia (alongside other apparently improper, racism motivated reasons). The wording of "refused waxing" without specifying why these salons declined to do so is IMO confusing - the reader would have to implicitly determine, via the provided information of the applicant's gender identity, that this was the reason the salons declined to provide the services. Consequently, the nature of the applicant's genitalia should be explicitly stated. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 00:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there's a way to avoid WP:ASTONISH completely, but wording like "waxing of the..." would help to reduce the awkwardness. On a side note, highly reliably medical sources do in fact refer to these parts as "male" even on trans women: [1] Crossroads ^-talk- 05:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

And unsurprisingly so, but we're writing for the layperson. The more people comment, the more I am convinced "waxing of the [specific body parts]" is the only solution here, if sources go into that detail. It looks like they do from a cursory reading—we could say "pubic hair", "scrotum", "penis". (Not a waxing expert so someone might be able to put that information in a natural English sentence better than I can.) I think we could also present this a bit earlier in the body section, and more clearly: "Five involved genital waxing, while two involved waxing arm or leg hair." [2] Otherwise, I agree that every solution has some level of ASTONISH. — Bilorv (talk) 12:49, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

The fact that Yaniv sought waxing of her scrotum is at the heart of the case. To omit that detail would be detrimental to the reader. The phrase "male genitalia" seems to be in wide use in mainstream RS accounts of the case, which I think is pretty strong prima facie evidence for it being a neutral descriptor in this context. But I think a more specific description as suggested by Bilorv would be okay too, provided there's a basis in RS. However, I do think a piped link to Male waxing is just a hair out of line of NPOV. I would just link to Bikini waxing instead, which provides some broader context (the second sentence of that article notes that "the practice is mainly associated with women", and it includes a link to the male waxing article). Colin M (talk) 14:34, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

For that reason, "bikini waxing" seems highly misleading. Linking to male waxing is NPOV if that is what the sources say; going against them is POV. Crossroads ^-talk- 02:37, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Which reason are you referring to? As for what the sources say, it seems like they use the terms "bikini wax" or "Brazilian" much more frequently than they use the phrase "male waxing". In fact I can only find one source using the latter phrase, and it's paraphrasing the argument of the respondents' lawyer (and is therefore not necessarily intended as a neutral description of the situation). Colin M (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Like Colin M said: "The fact that Yaniv sought waxing of her scrotum is at the heart of the case. To omit that detail would be detrimental to the reader. The phrase "male genitalia" seems to be in wide use in mainstream RS accounts of the case, which I think is pretty strong prima facie evidence for it being a neutral descriptor in this context."

To not include "male genetalia" would simply be deceiving the reader. Wisefroggy (talk) 19:07, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

This is the lede being discussed here. Every source mentioning this topic refer to her demanding male genital waxing of 'male parts'/'male genetilia' where these salons provided no such thing. The sentence states this is what she is "best known" for, and as such is accurate as is. Any other part of her body requested is secondary to what she is best known for, and just needs to be included in the body, not lede. CatCafe (talk) 22:38, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Referring to "waxing" (just like that), or using terms that refer to the genitalia without referring to the word "male" (since genitalia doesn't necessary correspond with gender) can serve as a good means to say that Yaniv was rejected on said basis, remaining accurate without breaching WP:ASTONISH or being otherwise transphobic. For example, "scrotum waxing" is okay, "male waxing" is not okay. Casspedia (talk) 11:11, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Casspedia, Please don't slur by calling the other editors transphobic. You don't have consensus here on talk for your desired changes, please refrain. CatCafe (talk) 20:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The comment above doesn't call anyone transphobic. It says a hypothetical action could be transphobic. — Bilorv (talk) 21:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, point taken. CatCafe (talk) 21:35, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Suggesting an alternative solution here: "wax" as wikilink to bikini waxing, "male genitalia" to Transsexual#Surgical status (to discuss about Yaniv being either pre-operative or non-operative). Linking to "male waxing" would break WP:ASTONISH, so I would refrain from that especially. Casspedia (talk) 22:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Also, unrelated note: I am frankly very insulted at how you called me a "newbie" in your talk page revert edit summary, since I attempted to weigh in for the first time on this specific article. This type of behavior is the exact type that drives Wikipedians outside of Wikipedia. Casspedia (talk) 22:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

You putting an editwar warning on my talk-page when I am currently in discussions here on this talkpage, then you making pre-emptive edits to the WP page in question without yet gaining consensus, is unhelpful and provocative, and in itself may lead to you creating such an edit war. Please refrain from this. And TBH, you have only had a registered WP account for less that 2 months, such is an observation. CatCafe (talk) 22:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

If you have noticed the userbox on my user page saying that this account is a clean start, you'll understand why. Casspedia (talk) 22:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Reading the various replies above, might there be a consensus for "... to wax her scrotum" as an alternative to "... to wax her male genitalia"? The wikilink is currently to scrotum waxing, the issue of what was to be waxed is germane, but some editors object to the use of "male genitalia" when referring to a trans woman. › Mortee _talk 22:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but waxing of the scrotum would be better per WP:ASTONISH and the advice to reword such constructions at MOS:GENDERID. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:19, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I would support either "wax her scrotum" or "waxing of the scrotum", although my preference is still a link to waxing instead of male waxing (to which scrotum waxing redirects). Firefangledfeathers (talk) 22:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The redirecting wikilink scrotum waxing is fine. It makes no sense to purposely link the wrong article. Reliable medical review articles (e.g. [3]) use the term "male" to refer to such genitalia anyway. And "male" wouldn't even be in the wikicode. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:28, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I see a few potential options here. I was also wondering, would simply linking to "scrotum" (as an article) and "waxing" (as an article) seperately be acceptable? A reader could derive from this what "scrotum waxing" means, without breaking GENDERID or ASTONISH. Going with Crossroads' take on it, "...waxing of the scrotum". Wikilinks could be per my suggestion as above (scrotum + waxing), or a single link (waxing). The same could be applied for Firefangledfeathers' wording, "wax her scrotum" (with both keywords linked appropriately). Linking to "male" is both (potentially) transphobic and (definitely) shocking, and as such should be avoided unless the wording on this article reflects that and has previously established that in a way that does not run afoul of GENDERID and accurately represents Yaniv as a woman (with "trans" second to "woman"). Casspedia (talk) 22:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Maybe better to include "her" at some point, because she was requesting waxing for herself, not suing on behalf of others. I don't have strong views on this either way. MOS:GENDERID doesn't say anything against the use of e.g. "her scrotum" that I can see. It says primarily not to overemphasise a subject's changes in gender presentation. Since there's been a lot of discussion, might it be best to open an RfC or some less formal kind of !vote? Or is it better to let the conversation run and see if a clear consensus emerges anyway in the fulness of time? › Mortee _talk 22:46, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Mortee, the use of "her" is already referred to in the sentence. But an RfC or vote as you suggest may be in order. CatCafe (talk) 22:53, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I doubt a consensus would emerge soon; it's often the case for many articles relating to transgender people, unfortunately. Maybe a vote primarily concerning whether a link should be pointing towards male waxing, waxing, Brazilian waxing, or something else? Casspedia (talk) 22:54, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

As the phrase in question refers to 'male waxing' or 'scrotum waxing' or 'male parts' (as Yaniv refers to), then I find it inaccurate for WP to then w-link to waxing vaginas or general waxing of the body? If the phrase refers to scrotum waxing, then it should link to scrotum waxing, and if it refers to male waxing, then it should link to male waxing. It's not rocket science. And the sentence refers to what she is "best known for" and if we use the sources - that is her taking salons to court for not waxing her scrotum or 'male parts' when they offered no such service. CatCafe (talk) 23:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

CatCafe, re your earlier reply, the only "her" I see is in the link, which is in question. I'll open an RfC. My first time doing so, so I hope this isn't unhelpful. › Mortee _talk 23:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposal (RfC)

Should the end of the opening sentence, currently "... after they refused to wax her male genitalia.", be changed to "... after they refused to wax her scrotum."? › Mortee _talk 23:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support (as proposer)—this seems to balance the concerns about referring to "male genitalia" in the context of a transwoman against the need to be clear upfront that in the most part the service requested involved body parts that the beauticians did not typically wax. Keeping "her" makes more clear that Yaniv was suing beauticians for refusing services to her, not to others. › Mortee _talk 23:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. ~ HAL333 00:36, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support, since it is neutral, accurate, falls within WP:RS and makes it clear that Yaniv is referring to herself, acknowledging that she is trans without attempting to deny it. Casspedia (talk) 00:36, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

*Support Mortee's proposed wording, but keep the w-link as is and linking to Scrotum waxing as that's the topic discussed. So it would read: "... after they refused to wax her scrotum." CatCafe (talk) 00:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Weak support. Much better than the current state of the article, but the current wording is ridiculously inappropriate so that's not saying much. As far as I can tell none of the sources specifically list scrotum waxing as the service withheld. Genital waxing encompasses the genitals as well as the surrounding skin and upper thigh area, so "wax her scrotum" is overly specific/restrictive and thus inaccurate. As for the wikilink, it is completely inappropriate (see GenderID, ID) to link to Male waxing, either directly or via the recently created (by an account heavily involved in this dispute, during the dispute) and orphaned redirect scrotum waxing. As noted above, waxing or bikini waxing is perfectly accurate and sufficient as a wikilink here. I think that something like ... after she was refused bikini waxing services, or ... after she was refused genital waxing services would be best here. It would be equally accurate to enumerate all the areas and body parts that they refused to wax, but that's overly specific for the first sentence of the article. We have an article body for a reason. Srey Sros^talk 03:10, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Don't know what sources you're referring to but every source at end of that sentence refers to 'scrotum wax' in one way or another. I added a couple more there for you. Thanks. CatCafe (talk) 03:28, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Some sources do contain the word "scrotum", but the sources do not focus on scrotum waxing as the only or principal service denied. Most say "bikini waxing" or "Brazilian waxing". The only source that focuses on scrotum waxing is the National Post source you just added, a right-wing publication with an exceptionally poor reputation for fact-checking (see National Post § 2006 Iran hoax). Srey Sros^talk 03:50, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Please don't be silly. Every source there mentions her requests for scrotum waxing, you're nitpicking. CatCafe (talk) 03:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps I should spell out more clearly what I mean by specifically list... as the service withheld and focus on... as the only or principal service denied. Mentioning these requests is no grounds for singling them out in the lead sentence. I would recommend reading the Due Weight policy. It's fairly straightforward: for this proposal to fit that policy, we would have to see the majority of the reliable sources focusing on scrotum waxing, which we do not. Srey Sros^talk 04:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Weak support with much the same reasoning as SreySros. I prefer genital waxing in the lead with specific body parts mentioned in the body as necessary. As stated elsewhere, a link to male waxing is opposed by our policies AND that page provides little useful context to our readers, they key goal of wikilinks. Compared to what can be gleaned from waxing, the male waxing article mainly just adds slang terms. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers there's no link to male waxing in the proposal › Mortee _talk 03:46, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Your proposal involves removing such a link. I support that part. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:49, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: MOS:GENDERID does not forbid the use of the term "male waxing", let alone linking to scrotum waxing as a redirect. "Male genitalia" is simply a biomedical classification of genitalia and does not comment on the gender of the person as a whole. WP:OR and WP:V are also operative here. Highly reliable sources do indeed refer to 'male' genitalia in the context of trans women without SRS: Transgender women may feel that they have been born in a body with the wrong sexual characteristics. This may result in significant psychological distress (gender dysphoria) and the desire to adapt their male physical and sexual characteristics to be more consistent with their experienced female gender. [4] Purposefully linking to the wrong article is frankly absurd.
  MOS:GENDERID also states, Avoid confusing constructions (Jane Doe fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., Jane Doe became a parent). This is why I officially propose ...after they refused to provide waxing of the scrotum. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:59, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Crossroads well articulated, you try telling that to Casspedia and Srey Sros who are currently mis-interperating the policy on misgendering to give them a pretext to editwar. They have a binary view of gender and seem to think that Yaniv's type of genitalia is incompatible with her chosen pronoun of she/her. IMHO their view is incompatible with gender-spectrum. CatCafe (talk) 22:55, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I do not appreciate how you directly assumed my view of gender to be binary. I am actually very, very strongly against this aforementioned social construct. Having a scrotum, a penis, and its associated reproductive system can be compatible with being a woman (and using she/her pronouns); however, using a male descriptor (as in "male genitalia") to refer to a woman is not. Casspedia (talk) 23:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

As has been explained to you it refers to her parts, not her pronouns as a person. There is a distinct difference that your POV can't grasp. If you were "strongly against this aforementioned social construct" then you would respect Yaniv's used terminology when it comes to her genitalia. CatCafe (talk) 23:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Crossroads, just to be clear: it seems like in addition to your proposed wording, you are also suggesting a continued link to scrotum waxing. Is that right? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 00:13, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Crossroads, since other users below are supporting your proposal, it's increasingly important to understand just what you are proposing. Your wording is clear, but I would appreciate some clarity on what, if any, links you are proposing to include. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:56, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

My proposal is link-agnostic. I also explained that scrotum waxing as a link for "waxing of the scrotum" is perfectly workable and that it's better to link to the proper article, but the article text is more important. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: I feel that “male genitalia” is fairly central to the Human Rights ruling and it seems central to the writing in the sources as well. From CBC's quote of the ruling:

But according to Tuesday's decision, "... human rights legislation does not require a service provider to wax a type of genitals they are not trained for and have not consented to wax."

Yaniv herself makes a statement that also reflects this usage, as reported in the next CBC source:

"None of these providers had any issue with anything until I mentioned I was transgender. Why was it not brought up saying, 'Hey we don't do services on male genitalia'?"

Yaniv, who identifies as female but has male genitalia, contacted the businesses through Facebook messages requesting to book an appointment for waxing services including a Brazilian wax which removes most or all pubic hair.

The Global News article reports that the Tribunal Member stated the following in the ruling:

Cousineau said she was satisfied that Yaniv has male genitals, though noted she was repeatedly evasive about the matter during testimony.

-SmolBrane (talk) 04:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support - Per arguments already mentioned above. Perhaps not perfect, but the proposed change is much better than the status quo. PraiseVivec (talk) 13:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - As per my comments above and as per User:CatCafe. Yaniv is not being misgendered here as far as I can tell. It appears editors are concerned about the word "male" but I believe it would be SYNTH to remove it. SmolBrane (talk) 16:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support. This is actually not that hard. One formulation frames Yaniv as male, and thus ignites the usual faux-Christian culture war wedge issue thing, the other is technical and bland and accurate and supported byu sources. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support, though as noted it was not only her scrotum that the providers declined to wax. McPhail (talk) 23:13, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support, although there is a lot of merit in what Crossroads had to say. I am surprised we are getting into genitalia issues for those who have not had gender reassignment surgery. --Whiteguru (talk) 01:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support, Its more accurate and acknowledges her as a trans woman. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 05:45, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per what Crossroads had to say. I find that argument very persuasive - The wording proposed minimizes ASTONISHment whilst providing succinctly the key locus of the dispute between Yaniv and the salons. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 18:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

  BrxBrx what do you mean by "the wording proposed"? You're opposing what I suggested, based on Crossroads's critique – do you prefer the current wording? Sorry if I'm being thick, I just didn't quite understand. › Mortee _talk 03:33, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

  Mortee, sorry, I may have been unclear. I think that Crossroad's proposal is very nice - simply cut out the gender debacle by using "the scrotum" as opposed to attempting to decipher whether either "male genitalia" or "her scrotum" is more appropriate. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 04:50, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

  BrxBrx cool, I see what you're saying now. Thanks for clarifying › Mortee _talk 13:04, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

  Actually reading back I was being thick - no surprise there. I just hadn't seen the proposal at the end of Crossroads' reply above. My fault entirely. › Mortee _talk 21:27, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. I don't think there's actually a problem in and of itself with the term "male genitalia", but scrotum is in this case more specific and clearer to read. Edit: I support keeping the wikilink to scrotum waxing, though. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 17:07, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Yaniv wasnt misgendered, male genitalia is more appropriate. Sea Ane (talk) 13:39, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support but with a link to Scrotum waxing. It is always much better to link more precisely. There is no policy reason not to link there (or even a guideline one). If the article isn't good enough improve it, that doesn't happen by bypassing it. Aircorn (talk) 22:30, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose All the sources, and I believe the ruling which is being reported refer to "male genitalia", as does Yaniv herself. Apart from any other consideration, changing the text implies that the 'waxers' did not object to handling other parts of the genital area, when presumably they refused to handle anything which would ordinarily be inside pants/panties. Present text is clearer than the proposed alternative. Pincrete (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as the wording is fine as is. But if the terminology in the lede is changed to 'Scrotum' as proposed, then the w-link should also remain linking to Scrotum waxing as that's the topic. So if it were changed it would read: "... after they refused to wax her scrotum." CatCafe (talk) 22:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
• Borderline, but Support "refused to wax her scrotum", with wikilink to Scrotum waxing. Both sides make a reasonable case. "Wax her scrotum" seems to most clearly and helpfully inform the readers what the sources are saying, given the complexities and relevant policy&guideline considerations.
  While I understand some editor's desire not to have the non-identity gender term anywhere in the same sentence with a transgender individual, it is against policy Assume Good Faith and potentially a WP:Personal attack to recklessly jump to the conclusion that other editors are malicious. It is neither malicious nor unreasonable to consider "male genitalia" the common-and-medical descriptor of a body structure without considering it a descriptor or misgendering of the person. In regards to the wikilink: I believe transgender individuals and their gender identity should be respected, however I also believe they need to live in the same reality as the rest of us. We have a relevant and appropriate article on the subject of scrotum waxing. No one, including a transgender person, should be surprised when that article reflects the fact that the most commonly used term for that procedure is "male waxing". Alsee (talk) 11:22, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The sources all say "male genitalia" or "male genitals" or derivations thereof. Largest news agency in Canada (CBC) headline: "Estheticians don't have to wax male genitalia". 2nd largest news agency in Canada: "Transgender woman denied waxing of male genitals". Go with what the sources say. Anything else is a disservice and intentionally misleading to the reader.Wisefroggy (talk) 02:48, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: A lot of good-faith appeals to usage in reliable sources are inapplicable here. For matters of style, as opposed to content, we should generally follow our own manual of style. Exceptions abound, but BLP articles about transgender individuals are the direct opposite of exceptions. More so than in any other category of article I can think of, editors of articles about transgender people have to reject names, titles, and adjectives used in reliable sources. This is exactly such a case. We should follow the spirit and letter of our manual of style and reject the use of male as a descriptor of Yaniv or any of her body parts. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

  MOS:GENDERID says nothing about body parts, only persons. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:21, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

  It's really about words. With emphasis added, GENDERID begins with "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources." The words male genitalia are gendered. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:10, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

  Waiter/Waitress are gendered terms for the same job, male/female genitalia are vastly different and so can't be said to be gendered terms for the same thing. We should change the phrase to 'pre-transition male genitalia' as someone could came a penectomy and still have scrotal skin so the article as is isn't clear, but the BC Human Rights Tribunal case it references very much depends on the ... minutia. InverseZebra (talk) 06:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support per the comments I made above: It goes against WP:ASTONISH to describe a woman as having "male genitalia", so we shouldn't be saying anything of the sort here, regardless of how the subject describes herself. Slightly surprised not to hear anyone else saying that "male genitalia" is a euphemistic term, which is not what we do here and linking it to scrotum waxing is an EGG issue. "Scrotum" avoids these two issues and then the way the sentence is phrased at present would require a pronoun, and MOS:GENDERID says that the pronoun is "she". Rephrasing to avoid a pronoun there so it says "denied scrotum waxing services to her" or whatever would be fine by me though. — Bilorv (talk) 01:51, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

How on earth is "her male genitalia" astonishing, but "her scrotum" is not? Is it being argued that "male genitalia" is a euphemism for a scrotum? Surely the reverse is true, "scrotum" is being proposed in order to imply "scrotum, penis, + any other related or adjacent body parts". We could happily avoid the issue by simply referring to 'genitalia' without 'sexing' them, but their anatomical sex is core to the issue between her and the 'waxers'. We don't even know which specific body parts she wanted waxed, other than that they were 'private' - but are implying that we do. Pincrete (talk) 06:43, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

"Her male" is, on the face of it, a flat out contradiction in terms. "Her scrotum" is something that someone with no idea what "transgender" means could at least mull over. Have you actually read the sources here? When I read them all a while ago, it seemed to me like "scrotum waxing" was a sufficiently-sourced description of the incident. — Bilorv (talk) 09:58, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

If avoiding astonishment is really the objective, surely phrasing could be found that avoided "her male". The court judgement, most sources and Yaniv all refer to "male genitalia" AFAIK. There isn't an issue of ambiguity or offence for any of them. "Scrotum waxing" on WP is anyway a redirect of "male waxing", so it is difficult to see any objection to terminology which is clearer and less euphemistic. Presumably scrotal waxing is the term used for those who specifically want their scrotal hair removed. Using that term invites its own questions as to why anyone would object to waxing that specific area, but not other parts with pubic hair. Pincrete (talk) 10:22, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

You've got it the wrong way around. The redirect is more specific. This is the case with the majority of redirects that are not synonyms/alternative names—they refer to a subpart of a topic which is covered at another article. I don't see how "scrotum" could possibly be a euphemism. What word do you think it's a euphemism for? As for the suggestion to avoid "her male", go ahead and propose something concrete. — Bilorv (talk) 09:03, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

MOS:EGG is not about redirects. The relevant guideline is MOS:REDIR Aircorn (talk) 01:29, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Of course it applies. At least, to redirects with possibilities (which I see this as). — Bilorv (talk) 09:03, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. The sources tend to go use language used by the former option rather than the latter. Moreover, arguments brought up by Crossroads and other are tend be more convincing in regards to the application of relevant policy and guidelines.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. A scrotum is male genitalia regardless of gender identity. Gender identity =/= sex. Stevenbfg (talk) 04:20, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• Current tally: assuming "Weak support" means half a support, I think about 12 are in support and 8 are in opposition. Consensus is weakly (margin of 3:2) in favor of "Support". Casspedia (talk) 10:54, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Should 'male' remain during discussion?

To me, it seems pretty clear that BLPUndel dictates that the "male" descriptor, which now has been objected to by multiple editors on BLP / GenderID grounds, should not remain in place during discussion. It seems to neatly fit the criteria of the policy (emphasis mine):

To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. Material that has been repaired to address concerns should be judged on a case-by-case basis.

However, my edit attempting to implement this policy was reverted by CatCafe. I'd love to get others' input here. Is there something I'm missing? Srey Sros^talk 04:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Why don't you just follow proper procedure, and wait until the RFC above is resolved rather than editing the content under discussion, and not as yet resolved. You're nitpicking again. CatCafe (talk) 05:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

CatCafe seems to be the only user here pushing for the word "male", so as such I will preliminary remove it per consensus. The consensus here seems fairly straightforward. Casspedia (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Not true.Wisefroggy (talk) 14:44, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

No. unlike you Casspedia I follow proper procedure and await the outcome of the RFC above. Also what was your previous WP username you claim to have used? CatCafe (talk) 20:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm unfamiliar with any notion of proper procedure which suspends BLP policy during talk page discussion. Additionally, please refrain from casting aspersions on other editors, as you did with your previous WP username you claim to have used aside. Srey Sros^talk 21:46, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I would argue the same thing. I sense that this is yet another one of those situations where "the person attempting to revert POV pushing gets accused of POVing"... wikibureaucracy never dies. For real though, BLP and living persons' right to privacy supersedes consensus. Casspedia (talk) 22:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean 'right to privacy'? Do you know anything about the Yaniv case where she openly talks to the media, and reveals to the tribunal, about her 'male genetalia'. CatCafe (talk) 23:02, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

As you know I am not offended by "male genetalia" (nor female) whereas others are and are WP:POV pushing. As has been explained to you, and you refuse to accept, MOS:GENDERID does not forbid the use of the term "male waxing", let alone linking to scrotum waxing as a redirect. "Male genitalia" is simply a biomedical classification of genitalia and does not comment on the gender of the person as a whole. WP:OR and WP:V are also operative here. But you cannot accept that and revert to misinterpretations of misgendering. CatCafe (talk) 22:46, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I am attempting to write in a perspective that says that genitalia does not infer gender; "scrotum" only indirectly refers to the genitalia of a given person, and "male" directly infers a male gender and makes most readers presume it as such. Saying that a pre-op trans woman has "a penis" is infinitely more respectful than saying that this same trans woman has "male genitalia", since it invalidates their gender. If you find yourself accusing others of POV pushing when no one else does the same, than you may want to consider whether you have the minority opinion or no. Casspedia (talk) 23:18, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Your misinterpretation of policy has been explained to you, and you refuse to accept. I find your views on Yanivs self publicised 'male genitalia' and/or 'male parts' to be narrow, binary and not embracing of the broad spectrum of gender fluidity. If a woman wants to flaunt it and call her genitalia "male" (as Yaniv proudly does) then who are you to impose your rigid narrow view of gender-spectrum upon her? CatCafe (talk) 23:28, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Casspedia said: "Saying that a pre-op trans woman has "a penis" is infinitely more respectful than saying that this same trans woman has "male genitalia", since it invalidates their gender." This is opinion, and, in my opinion, is nonsense. Casspedia's opinion is not reason to override fact. "Male genitalia" is factual, clear, concise, and is what the sources use. Removing the phrase does a disservice to the reader. The phrase absolutely should remain. Wisefroggy (talk) 02:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with SreySros that "male" should be kept out pending the results of the RFC, but for different reasons. I am not confident that objections to "male" have been made on BLP grounds. Obviously, this is a BLP article, but the edits involved are not poorly sourced. It's a question of style (an important one!) not content. However, just based on WP:ONUS, disputed content should stay out until those who propose its inclusion build consensus. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:13, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Seriously what is wrong with just saying her genitals. This is getting ridiculous. Saying her genitals would be more neutral and Wikipedia has a policy saying we should respect trans people’s identities. Read MOS:GENDERID. It literally states use preferred gender language. CycoMa (talk) 03:27, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Here's exactly what is wrong with it: saying "her genitalia" explains nothing to the reader; saying "her male genitalia" explains almost everything. "Male genitalia" is both factual (don't you care about being factual, CycoMa??) and is what the sources say. To say anything else is a disservice to the reader.Wisefroggy (talk) 14:44, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

There's no BLP issue here, this doesn't violate MOS:GENDERID – that's not what is in dispute in the RfC above. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 18:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Wisefroggy being factual doesn’t mean I should go against Wikipedia’s rules by saying things that offend trans people.CycoMa (talk) 16:21, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

CycoMa Hogwash. Factuality is the entire reason for the existence of wikipedia. And your statement "things that offend trans people": you conducted a survey of trans people, did you? Wisefroggy (talk) 03:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Biographical articles about certain trans people isn’t about truth, it’s about who the individual is what information should we keep private.

If you want truth go to biology articles.CycoMa (talk) 03:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

CycoMa said "If you want truth go to biology articles". CycoMa, it is shocking that you said that. If you truly feel that way, you need to think long/hard about ceasing to be a wikipedia editor.Wisefroggy (talk) 03:52, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Yaniv is primarily notable due to a discrimination case she initiated on behalf of her scrotum. To avoid the central theme of her notoriety is to avoid the facts. CatCafe (talk) 03:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Wisefroggy, CycoMa, I wanted to jump in regarding the notion of truth in Wikipedia, and particularly Froggy's comment think long/hard about ceasing to be a wikipedia editor. This is a common error, especially for new editors. To explain Wikipedia policies in a nutshell, they require Wikipedia to be an accurate summary of what Reliable Sources say. Arguing Truth on the internet is a foolish, endless, disruptive timesink. On Wikipedia we do not debate truth. We do not decide truth. Our articles do not contain truth. We block editors who persistently attempt to insert truth into articles, or who persistently try to argue truth on talk pages. If science sources all say the moon is made of cheese, our article on the moon is required to accurately summarize those sources. The same goes for vaccines, UFOs, the moon landing, demons, evolution, astrology, global warming, religion, quantum mechanics, homeopathy, relativity, or anything else. "Truth" is not a valid argument here, truth arguments carry zero weight. We accurately summarize what Reliable Sources say. If anyone tries to argue the sources are all wrong or biased or part of some conspiracy, they are admitting the argument is over and that they lost. They are admitting the sources are against them, and Wikipedia policy requires that we accurately summarize those sources.

I am tempted to write a longer and perhaps more clear comment, but this is rather offtopic here. The debate on this article isn't a truth war. Alsee (talk) 05:43, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

A more accurate description of that is that we aren’t a place of truth with a capital T. We are a place where we present views from scholars from many walks of life. If a majority of scholars say A=A we say A=A. We aren’t a place to say whether or not something is true or not.

Sure there may be some cases, like I have seen people cite sociologists in articles for biology. Or I have seen sources where a 1 scholar says C=D while 60 scholars said C=B.

Just keep that in mind when editing, respect Wikipedia’s policies.CycoMa (talk) 06:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted this back to what it was in April before this dispute arose, with the non-specific description. It can be changed once consensus is reached about what exactly it should say. Everyone needs to stop edit warring (because that is what is happening) on the article in the meantime. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

For clarity, after being refused waxing services was what the text read before the 1st of May: Special:Diff/1020908890, with the RfC occurring about a week later. I'd say that version is probably the WP:STATUSQUO (I guess you could argue a different consensus was established in the few days after, but given it was almost immediately contested I would disagree). Regarding BLP issues, what is and isn't a BLP issue is not a trivially obvious matter, but regardless, whether or not "male genitalia" was unsourced (or poorly sourced) was never really up for dispute here, so removing it for WP:BLPREMOVE reasons doesn't really make sense. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 11:31, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Harassment Section Should be Renamed

None of the instances listed under "Alleged Online Harassment - Against Yaniv" reasonably meet the standard for harassment under Canadian law, specifically "[Action which] causes that other person reasonably [...] to fear for their safety or the safety of anyone known to them." Both Shepherd and Murphy are purported to have made posts which *insult*, not threaten, Yaniv. I propose that this sub-section be removed entirely.

On a related note - "Alleged Online Harassment *by* Yaniv" - Yaniv's years-long unwanted sexual contact with this young lady (starting when she was 12). This sounds closer to Luring than online harassment and we may be burying the lede by referring to it as such. This subsection should probably be named something closer to 'Allegations of criminal sexual luring of children'. I'll leave this to someone with more BLP experience. InverseZebra (talk) 07:35, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

The "Alleged Online Harassment - Against Yaniv" section is still noteworthy as it's about how Twitter was so intolerant of insults against Yaniv, and cancelled those people. A title change may instead be in order. CatCafe (talk) 11:52, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Good idea. We could expand it to include the then-active publication-ban and other issues. InverseZebra (talk) 19:28, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

I did not say that, or suggest expanding or removing the section. If you can come up an agreeable and better title then propose it. CatCafe (talk) 22:07, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

No, you suggested renaming it instead of removing it, which would allow a broader name to be chosen and thus the section could be expanded. How does "Online disputes over pronouns and censorship" sound? That way it's more than just snippets of arguments. InverseZebra (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Harassment isn't just a term of criminal law. I am not aware of any policies or guidelines that recommend against the use of common language terms that also have separate legal definitions. If someone does know of some, I'd be glad to learn about them. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to renaming the "Against Yaniv" section if there's a similarly descriptive option. I would oppose "Allegations of criminal sexual luring of children" as that's unsupported by our sources. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Most lay-definitions of harassment include 'repeated' or a synonym. An insult from someone you're fighting with generally isn't considered harassment unless they keep going after you stop. I had used the legal definition because I thought Yaniv had sued over that issue, but now I can't find the reference. This is why I now like CatCafe's idea of renaming it. As for the sexual exploitation, there are newspaper articles that support the Morgane Oger blog post, such as Yaniv Predatory Behaviour. That part seems clear and deeply supported, what's not obvious is how to make it encyclopedic and BLP compliant. InverseZebra (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Kiwi Farms drawing

CatCafe (talk · contribs) recently found, uploaded to Commons^(diff), and inserted^(diff) this image into the article's infobox. Including this image would violate practically every relevant WP policy and guideline, and I am shocked that anyone would think inserting this image was appropriate.

1. The image is an illustration of the subject, seemingly created and posted^{(Internet Archive)} by a user on the webforum Kiwi Farms (see § Suicide of Chloe Sagal) on a hate thread^{(Internet Archive, thread context)} about the subject. The thread that CatCafe downloaded the image from and linked to as CC attribution is titled JY British Columbia - Racist pedo tranny; vexatious litigant from British Columbia; protected by big tech; #waxmyballs. If that doesn't provide enough of a glimpse into the artist's intent here, see the Internet Archive links above for more context.

2. Although CatCafe did remove Yaniv's deadname from the image, putting a trans BLP subject's chosen name in scare-quotes is completely unacceptable, on NPoV, GenderID, and BLP grounds.

3. Even aside from all the issues of NPOV, BLP, and basic human decency that the previous points raise, we almost never use sketches of living people (see the recent Elliot Page RfC which discussed this).

I am horrified that this image was inserted into a BLP page and that it remained live for nearly an hour, to the point where I am concerned that CatCafe's account has perhaps been compromised.

Srey Sros^talk 15:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Jesus, what a horrendous image. I'm not sure if there's much to discuss on this talk page (other than that the image obviously shouldn't go here), perhaps opening an WP:ANI thread about CatCafe would be appropriate? ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 16:36, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

In terms of this page, I’d consider this discussion closed; the sketch is a bad idea period and I’m adding my voice to consensus against it. For conduct issues, I encourage interested editors to continue discussion at CatCafe’s talk page. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:07, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

• I agree the image is bad, though regarding point 3 I'll note that they may not have known about that RfC or that sketches for BLPs are typically rejected. Regarding point 2, CatCafe has since corrected the file to not have the quotes, but I agree that it is still a bad picture. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC)