Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mammals: Difference between revisions
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:: '''Comment''' Whether or not domesticated forms are considered distinct species or subspecies of their wild ancestors is really arbitrary and essentially just semantics. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 20:21, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
:: '''Comment''' Whether or not domesticated forms are considered distinct species or subspecies of their wild ancestors is really arbitrary and essentially just semantics. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 20:21, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
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:: '''Weak B''': While it's an essentially arbitrary decision with no one "right" answer, my preference is to go with the newer source since there seems to be a move recently to give domesticated species their own names. There are also significantly more ghits and google-scholar-hits for "''Bos indicus''" specifically than for "''Bos primigenius indicus''", suggesting that it's the more commonly used name. (Although both clearly are used, with different authors preferring different ones, even in very recent sources). MDD justifies their stance on the grounds that it makes discussions of conservation easier, which doesn't apply to us, but since there's no one objectively correct answer I'd go with what seems to be the more common name. On the other hand, I don't feel strongly about it beyond the fact that we should obviously mention both alternatives in the text of the relevant articles. [[User:Anaxial|Anaxial]] ([[User talk:Anaxial|talk]]) 21:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
:: '''Weak B''': While it's an essentially arbitrary decision with no one "right" answer, my preference is to go with the newer source since there seems to be a move recently to give domesticated species their own names. There are also significantly more ghits and google-scholar-hits for "''Bos indicus''" specifically than for "''Bos primigenius indicus''", suggesting that it's the more commonly used name. (Although both clearly are used, with different authors preferring different ones, even in very recent sources). MDD justifies their stance on the grounds that it makes discussions of conservation easier, which doesn't apply to us, but since there's no one objectively correct answer I'd go with what seems to be the more common name. On the other hand, I don't feel strongly about it beyond the fact that we should obviously mention both alternatives in the text of the relevant articles. [[User:Anaxial|Anaxial]] ([[User talk:Anaxial|talk]]) 21:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
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:::"… makes discussions of conservation easier, which doesn't apply to us …" meaning what? ~ [[User talk:Cygnis insignis|cygnis insignis]] 15:13, 28 February 2022 (UTC) |
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:: '''B''': Agree with Anaxial for the same reason. However, it is worth noting that if we do so, we should probably give this treatment to all domestic animals considered distinct species by the MDD (i.e. classifying ''E. ferus'' w/ the tarpan and Przewalksi's horse and ''E. caballus'' with the domestic horse as distinct species), as the MDD seems to cite the same paper (Gentry, A., Clutton-Brock, J., & Groves, C. P. (2004)) for all of them. That example change is actually backed up by the IUCN, which classifies ''E. ferus'' as an endangered species based on the Przewalksi's horse alone. [[User:Geekgecko|Geekgecko]] ([[User talk:Geekgecko|talk]]) 21:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
:: '''B''': Agree with Anaxial for the same reason. However, it is worth noting that if we do so, we should probably give this treatment to all domestic animals considered distinct species by the MDD (i.e. classifying ''E. ferus'' w/ the tarpan and Przewalksi's horse and ''E. caballus'' with the domestic horse as distinct species), as the MDD seems to cite the same paper (Gentry, A., Clutton-Brock, J., & Groves, C. P. (2004)) for all of them. That example change is actually backed up by the IUCN, which classifies ''E. ferus'' as an endangered species based on the Przewalksi's horse alone. [[User:Geekgecko|Geekgecko]] ([[User talk:Geekgecko|talk]]) 21:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
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::We should follow '''Opinion 2027''' of the [[International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature]], which recognises domestic cattle as ''Bos taurus'' and the aurochs as ''Bos primigenius'', see<ref>{{cite journal |last1=International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature |year=2003 |title=Opinion 2027 (Case 3010). Usage of 17 specific names based on wild species which are pre-dated by or contemporary with those based on domestic animals (Lepidoptera, Osteichthyes, Mammalia) |journal=The Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature |volume=60 |issue=1 |pages=81–84 |url=https://archive.org/stream/bulletinofzoolog602003int#page/80/mode/2up}}</ref> – [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 21:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
::We should follow '''Opinion 2027''' of the [[International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature]], which recognises domestic cattle as ''Bos taurus'' and the aurochs as ''Bos primigenius'', see<ref>{{cite journal |last1=International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature |year=2003 |title=Opinion 2027 (Case 3010). Usage of 17 specific names based on wild species which are pre-dated by or contemporary with those based on domestic animals (Lepidoptera, Osteichthyes, Mammalia) |journal=The Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature |volume=60 |issue=1 |pages=81–84 |url=https://archive.org/stream/bulletinofzoolog602003int#page/80/mode/2up}}</ref> – [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 21:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:14, 28 February 2022
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Paenungulata Edits
Some unregistered IPA (probably the same person) keeps reverting the claim of dinoceratans and the South American native ungulates as a whole in the taxobox. This is inaccurate and I explained it more in detail on the article's talk page. Anyway we can block said IPAs? 4444hhhh (talk) 18:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
Orinoco river dolphin
Hey everyone, I am planning on making a page for the Orinoco river dolphin (Inia humboldtiana). The ASM presently classifies it as a distinct species based on a study from last year, which uses osteological and genetic evidence supporting it as being a distinct species (I'm no expert, but the evidence used in the study does seem pretty sufficient). However, most other authorities do not (likely since the study is still quite new), and even the ASM states that its classification is tentative until further research about contact zones comes about. I'm planning on having the article acknowledge both points of view, much like the articles for the Araguaian river dolphin and the Bolivian river dolphin. The main reason I'm giving a heads up here is because the individuals at Duisburg Zoo, which are used throughout the Amazon river dolphin page, seem to actually be Orinoco dolphins based on several sources, meaning that if I'm going to make a page about I. humboldtiana, I will have to remove those images from the Amazon dolphin page and replace them with ones of confirmed I. geoffrensis. So just wanted to give a heads up. Geekgecko (talk) 19:03, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
- May be WP:TOOSOON, the only major database which I see lists "I. humboldtiana" is World Cetacea Database which says it's an unaccepted synonym User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 07:21, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- While I think it looks likely that at least three of the four species in the ASM-MDD will be recognised more widely, I have to agree that it is too soon. The Society for Marine Mammalogy and hence the IUCN are waiting for further information before making a split of I. araguaiaensis and I. boliviensis . Hrbek et al (2014) only find three distinct groups (based on molecular analyses, with supporting morphological evidence) and leave I. g. humboldtiana as subspecies of I. geoffrensis, although it's not clear how many samples were from the Orinoco basin, while Canizales (2020) proposes recognition of I. humboldtiana based on morphological evidence (but see Fig 9). I suspect further molecular evidence to corroborate this split is needed before the SMM and IUCN recognise this species. You could write the article in draft space, but you might have to wait a while for further news. It might be a better use of time to expand the current article to describe these potential splits. Both the IUCN and SMM have discussions on the evidence for potential splits. — Jts1882 | talk 10:54, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Strepsirrhini taxonomy
Currently, the English Wikipedia uses a classification according to which the suborder Strepsirrhini subdivided into infraorders †Adapiformes and Lemuriformes (Lemuroidea + Lorisoidea). The taxonomy of strepsirrhines is very confusing, but this classification does not seem to be prevalent. At least ITIS, MSW3, and NCBI subdivide suborder Strepsirrhini into three infraorders: Lemuriformes, Lorisiformes, and Chiromyiformes. The same classification is used in recent phylogenetic research[1][2][3]. Unfortunately, adapiforms are not taken into account in this case, but since it is a paraphyletic group, I am not sure if we should use this taxon. HFoxii (talk) 05:23, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- Looks like the automated taxonbox system is following the two infraorder classification of Cantwell (2010). The controversies section compares the two and three infraorder systems, but doesn't mention the four infraorder system that would be consistent with the three extant infraorders used by MSW3, ASM-MDD and the phylogenetic studies you link to. Given MSW3 is still the recommended source for the project and its taxonomy holds up well (apart from the Cheirogaleoidea-Lemuroidea split in Lemuriformes) and is used in other recent sources, I think we should use the three extant infraorder system. — Jts1882 | talk 11:09, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Mole (animal)
The existence of the article Mole (animal) somewhat confuses me. I would assume that it's talking about animals with the "mole" body plan (so most members of Talpidae, as well as Chrysochloridae and Notoryctidae), but most of the article aside from the section "Other 'moles'" refers exclusively to Talpidae. In addition, I doubt we need a separate article for "mole"; only a few members of Talpidae (the several shrew moles and desmans) really fall outside the "mole" body plan, and I'm pretty sure most people with knowledge of golden moles and marsupial moles would already acknowledge them as distinct from true moles. I propose that we remove all the info exclusively about Talpidae (and potentially move it to that page if it's not already there) and either make this article just about animals with the "mole" body plan or we just turn the whole article into a redirect to Talpidae.Geekgecko (talk) 23:37, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Reliable sources noticeboard discussion about Encyclopedia of Life
Hi all
I've started a discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard about Encyclopedia of Life as a reliable source for Wikipedia, please share your thoughts here. I've added some basic information about EOL at the top of the section to help inform the discussion.
Thanks very much
John Cummings (talk) 20:24, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Potential persistent disruption on animal pages
Hello all. A recently banned user, Somed00d1997, has made a prolific number of edits to animal pages. Many of these were disputed and reversed (and the user made clear that they were too smart to need consensus, which provoked multiple edit wars), but a number remain, ranging from less-trafficked species to high-profile pages like Duck. I imagine a number of them are totally fine, but I have no real expertise here, and thought it might be worthwhile to flag in case those who are more knowledgable on the subject wanted to have a look through their changes. The user also seems to have used a few sockpuppets once they were banned, including Reusensio.--Yaksar (let's chat) 16:32, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for your note. I also had a few encounters with their sockpuppets, a 3rd bit the dust just after a few edits. – BhagyaMani (talk) 17:56, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Giraffa sp.
They did ask a fair question about whether the Giraffe should be split, which led me to look for the IUCN position on the taxonomy. But there was nothing in the taxonbar, my usual sort cut to IUCN information. I found to IUCN assessment on the single species of giraffe and started adding it to Wikidata, but they have the assessment assigned to the Northern giraffe, which is incorrect. There is a mess there that needs sorting. Maybe tomorrow. — Jts1882 | talk 18:14, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- I had a go, the IUCN does indeed refer to a single species, not the genus Giraffa. ~ cygnis insignis 06:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- The Giraffe article treats the extant giraffe as one species, which means it should have a speciesbox for G. camelopardalis and connect to the Wikidata item on G. camelopardalis, not the one on Giraffa. Unfortunately, that Wikidata item for G. camelopardalis has been relabelled the northern giraffe, a narrower taxonomic concept for G. camelopardalis. The IUCN also treats the giraffe as a single species and their assessment applies to that single species, so it is an error for Wikidata to apply IUCN ID for G. camelopardalis to the Northern giraffe, as the assessment is not for that narrower concept of G. camelopardalis.
- It's a bit of a mess. It turns out there is a Northern giraffe article on English Wikipedia. This article used to be the genus article, which covered the single extant species and a number of extinct species. There is also an article on the Southern giraffe, treated as a proposed species. The other two proposed species in the four species hypothesis are treated as subspecies, Reticulated giraffe and Masai giraffe), which is consistent with the main article saying extant giraffes form a single species. There really should be a decision on what treatment to follow and all the articles brought into line.
- Wikidata is even more of a mess. It treats the reticulated giraffe (reticulated giraffe (Q27497311)) as a species and then has the parent taxon as the northern giraffe (giraffe (Q15083). Similarly for the Masai giraffe (Giraffa tippelskirchi (Q27497247))), both of which should be sister to the northern giraffe in the four species hypothesis (i.e G. camelopardalis sensu Northern giraffe). Several older subspecies of the traditional species also have northern giraffe as the parent (e.g. Giraffa camelopardalis cottoni (Q40501009), Giraffa camelopardalis wardi (Q40501095), Giraffa camelopardalis angolensis (Q53818198)). The first two haven't been recognised for some time and the later (Angolan giraffe) would be subspecies of the Southern giraffe in the multispecies hypotheses. I assume this is because they were set up as subspecies of G. camelopardalis (when used for the one species) and the item has been changed to a different concept (G. camelopardalis sensu Northern giraffe in 3/4 species hypothesis). Changing the taxon concept for the item has created numerous error in other Wikidata items. — Jts1882 | talk 07:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- I made some changes at wd pages when I had a stab at it, modifying the output of English, French and German to state the scientific name for 'instance of taxon', and divorced a flagged statement from the genus article. I also pushed the taxonomy that supported seven "taxonomically significant units", allied as four species, into the article due to apparent support of a previously posited circumscription by a 2021 study (there is an interesting note on specimens of early studies that skewed toward a conception of monotypic genus). ~ cygnis insignis 15:21, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- It makes sense to use the scientific name as the label for an item with an instance of "taxon". It will probably get changed, though.
- A little hisstory on item giraffe (Q15083). It was created on 6 November 2012 as a basic item on the giraffe, just with interwiki links, and the label was changed to the scientific name on 8 March 2013. This item was clearly about the single species taxon concept. The label was changed back to giraffe on 12 September 2014, but it was still the single species concept. The statements (e.g. IUCN ID and conservation status) and identifiers (e.g. MSW3) all applied to G. camelopardalis as a species containing all extant giraffes. Various subspecies had this as a parent.
- Then on 9 September 2016 the label was changed to Northern giraffe, changing the species concept to a narrower one. The statements and identifiers still referred to a broader species and erroneously applied an IUCN conservation status to the redefined species. An edit on 10 September 2016 changed it back and suggested that it would "be better to edit this and make the northern giraffe page separately" but this was ignored and the new species concept prevailed. This was achieved by changing the label and leaving all the statements and identifiers unchanged, as well as parent entries on subspecies in southern Africa that now pointed to the Northern giraffe. Five years later the errors are still there. @Peter coxhead:, this might be a case study to add to your essay as an example of the problem with Wikidata items, taxa and taxon names.
- There is so much that needs clearing up, both on Wikidata and here on Wikipedia, it's hard to know how to start without adding to the confusion. There is no sign that the IUCN plan to change their species designations (they plan to complete asssessments for the nine subspecues), although the ASM-MDD now recognise the four species so we do have a secondary source. — Jts1882 | talk 16:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Jts1882: indeed it is a good example of the serious problems that result from using Wikidata for data about taxa. I've corrected Wikidata items in the past to make the taxonbar here correct, only for editors over there to mess them up again. It's also a salutory warning for those like Trappist the monk who want to use Wikidata for taxonomy here. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:31, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- Why are you attacking me? Apparently, you have misunderstood what I wanted to create at wikidata. I wanted an isolated, isolated, set of autotaxobox data derived from the en.wiki taxonomy templates. That isolated data-set was to have no connection at all to extant wikidata taxonomies. The isolated autotaxobox qids and supporting properties would-not-need, would-not-want, to share the properties and data assigned to the wikidata taxonomy qids and vice versa. I was not able to convince the editors at wikidata that many other-language wikis might benefit from centralized, easily editable, easily obtainable autotaxobox data. Further attempts at less ambitious internationalization have been rejected so I am done with this autotaxobox stuff. There is no need to you to attack me for something that I am no-longer pursuing.
- —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:51, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Jts1882: FWIW, ITIS and COL (via ITIS) also reflect 4 species: [4] [5] —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 03:15, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Jts1882: indeed it is a good example of the serious problems that result from using Wikidata for data about taxa. I've corrected Wikidata items in the past to make the taxonbar here correct, only for editors over there to mess them up again. It's also a salutory warning for those like Trappist the monk who want to use Wikidata for taxonomy here. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:31, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- I made some changes at wd pages when I had a stab at it, modifying the output of English, French and German to state the scientific name for 'instance of taxon', and divorced a flagged statement from the genus article. I also pushed the taxonomy that supported seven "taxonomically significant units", allied as four species, into the article due to apparent support of a previously posited circumscription by a 2021 study (there is an interesting note on specimens of early studies that skewed toward a conception of monotypic genus). ~ cygnis insignis 15:21, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- The summary as seven subspecies was reverted by @LittleJerry:, stating "that's what the chart is for" [6]. ~ cygnis insignis 01:45, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- I've put it back as a cladogram. The table doesn't show the new subspecies proposal. — Jts1882 | talk 09:01, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- The taxonomy of giraffes is a big mess. I think now is the time to weigh the pros and cons of splitting Giraffa camelopardalis sensu lato. The IUCN Red List recognizes one species. However, all recent molecular genetic studies suggest that there are several species of giraffes. The only problem is that there are different opinions about their number. To my mind, we are better off adopting the ASM Mammal Diversity Database (4 species) point of view, which is supported by at least two recent large studies [7][8]. ASM MDD is a secondary source and maybe in this case we can use it instead of IUCN. HFoxii (talk) 04:47, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. While I've generally argued we should wait for the IUCN and ASM-MDD to come to agreement before superseding MSW3, I think the case for four species is strong in the phylogenetic analyses (Fennessy et al, 2016; Coimbra et al, 2021; Petzold et al (2020) [their data supports 3 or 4 species, they just favour three in the admixture analysis]) and we can use the ASM-MDD as secondary source. It will also help clear up the inconsistencies in the current articles and make it easier to reconcile with Wikidata. — Jts1882 | talk 09:01, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- The 2021 source also aligns the seven taxa to common names, potentially useful in resolving inconsistencies on that matter as well. ~ cygnis insignis 09:24, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- It's actually eight taxa aligining with traditional subspecies and their common names, as Giraffa reticluata doesn't have subspecies. The ninth traditional subspecies, Giraffa rothschildi, is subsumed into Giraffa camelopardalis camelopardalis. The traditional subspecies have held up pretty well, with only the species division being contested. — Jts1882 | talk 09:38, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- My mistake, "… recognizing four species and seven subspecies, the latter of which should be considered as evolutionary significant units." Coimbra 2021 ~ cygnis insignis 10:14, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- They also emphasize four 'lineages' that diverged 230–370 ka ago in support of the number of species. ~ cygnis insignis 10:24, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- It's actually eight taxa aligining with traditional subspecies and their common names, as Giraffa reticluata doesn't have subspecies. The ninth traditional subspecies, Giraffa rothschildi, is subsumed into Giraffa camelopardalis camelopardalis. The traditional subspecies have held up pretty well, with only the species division being contested. — Jts1882 | talk 09:38, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- The 2021 source also aligns the seven taxa to common names, potentially useful in resolving inconsistencies on that matter as well. ~ cygnis insignis 09:24, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. While I've generally argued we should wait for the IUCN and ASM-MDD to come to agreement before superseding MSW3, I think the case for four species is strong in the phylogenetic analyses (Fennessy et al, 2016; Coimbra et al, 2021; Petzold et al (2020) [their data supports 3 or 4 species, they just favour three in the admixture analysis]) and we can use the ASM-MDD as secondary source. It will also help clear up the inconsistencies in the current articles and make it easier to reconcile with Wikidata. — Jts1882 | talk 09:01, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Wikidata
Borrowing the cladogram from Giraffe and repeating some of what Jts1882 and Cygnis insignis have said and done, it sounds like this is the structure that needs to be represented on Wikidata:
I created the entry for the Masai giraffe sensu stricto under the assumption that the existing entry represented the Masai giraffe sensu lato. Note also that the preservation of G. t. thorncrofti as a distinct subspecies is currently for the benefit of conservation efforts, as more research needs to be done on better data to verify that the distinction is real.
Beyond that, Rothschild giraffe (Q2222461) (Rothschild's giraffe) has been determined to be synonymous with G. c. camelopardalis, and so needs to be merged somehow.
In addition, we have the following other items to fit in somehow:
- Giraffa camelopardalis cottoni (Q40501009) ()
- Synonymous with G. (c.) camelopardalis?
- Giraffa camelopardalis wardi (Q40501095) ()
- Synonymous with G. (g.) giraffa?
- Giraffa camelopardalis angolensis (Q53818198) ()
- Synonymous with G. g. angolensis?
- Giraffa camelopardalis reticulata (Q656059) ()
- Synonymous with G. reticulata?
- Giraffa camelopardalis tippelskirchi (Q923524) ()
- Synonymous with G. tippelskirchi?
- Giraffa camelopardalis giraffa (Q2522576) ()
- Synonymous with G. giraffa?
- Giraffa reticulata nigrescens (Q40501176) ()
- Synonymous with G. reticulata?
As well as these (which I think are all extinct and possibly out of scope):
- Giraffa stillei (Q30715967) (Giraffa stillei)
- Giraffa sivalensis (Q30715965) (Giraffa sivalensis)
- Giraffa priscilla (Q30693479) (Giraffa priscilla)
- Giraffa pygmaea (Q17633034) (Giraffa pygmaea)
- Giraffa pomeli (Q104425991) ()
- Giraffa punjabiensis (Q104426158) ()
- Giraffa gracilis (Q10289919) ()
- Giraffa jumae (Q3755477) (Giraffa jumae)
Sources: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 07:58, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think the biggest problem is giraffe (Q15083). This was created for the single species concept of G. camelopardalis. Several years ago someone changed the label to Northern giraffe, a different taxon concept and this introduced a number of errors. The IUCN status and various other identifiers, which deal with the single species concept, were applied to the northern giraffe item and several southern subspecies found themselves pointing to the northern giraffe as a parent taxon. The errors are still there (or were a week or so ago when I last checked). At the moment there is no wikidata item to which the IUCN status can be properly applied.
- One solution is to restore Q15083 to the single species taxon and create a new item for the northern giraffe. This is what should have been done in the first place, as was done for the Southern giraffe (Q26840221). One problem is that two taxon concepts have the same scientific name (G. camelopardalis sensu lato and stricto) and I'm not sure how to handle this with Wikidata taxon items. A second problem is the sitelinks to giraffe (Q15083) now variously point to articles on the giraffe (single species) and Northern giraffe, so reversing the initial change leaves a lot of untangling to do. Most of the common names seem to still apply to the single species concept, though.
- If this is somehow fixed, then the currently recognised subspecies can be linked (via parent taxon) to the appropriate new species and the older now-redundant subspecies left linked to the single species taxon. The extinct species are not a problem as nothing has changed there. — Jts1882 | talk 08:51, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Jts1882: So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're proposing to leave all obsolete synonyms as their own items and essentially have two hierarchies: the (old) single-species one and the (new) multi-species one? That's certainly one way to go about it, but I'll have to look into what Wikidata best practices are: on the one hand, the items will represent the names, which are distinct, but on the other hand, they represent real things, which are overlapping or the same. This will become particularly problematic when it comes to wikilinks, since any given article can only link to one item. So, for example, if there are different items for Giraffa camelopardalis reticulata and Giraffa reticulata, which one gets the wikilink to Reticulated giraffe? —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 05:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- It turns out that Wikidata does have some guidelines for this, but they don't seem to go far enough towards addressing the situation we have at hand, so I've asked for input from the folks who have more experience. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 07:02, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- It seems the original source of confusion is that giraffe (Q15083) was created in 2012 ([16]) as the item for "giraffe" and that idea later evolved to mean "the species Giraffa camelopardalis" instead of "the genus Giraffa", which has caused hundreds of wikilinks to conflate the two ideas. Giraffa (Q862089) was created around the same time ([17]) to explicitly refer to the genus. I'm going to attempt to work backwards from this. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 07:35, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- I am trying to make sense of all the Giraffa species in my sandbox (including a bunch of relevant references) and have put together a Wikidata query to pull them all and display their various taxon names and article names, but actually updating Wikidata has been proving to be a challenge, due in part to the lack of sufficient documentation. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 18:24, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Jts1882: So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're proposing to leave all obsolete synonyms as their own items and essentially have two hierarchies: the (old) single-species one and the (new) multi-species one? That's certainly one way to go about it, but I'll have to look into what Wikidata best practices are: on the one hand, the items will represent the names, which are distinct, but on the other hand, they represent real things, which are overlapping or the same. This will become particularly problematic when it comes to wikilinks, since any given article can only link to one item. So, for example, if there are different items for Giraffa camelopardalis reticulata and Giraffa reticulata, which one gets the wikilink to Reticulated giraffe? —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 05:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
Malayan tapir in Acrocodia?
The page for the Malayan tapir lists the species as belonging to the genus Acrocodia based on Groves and Grubb 2011, which many other taxonomic authorities such as ASM have disputed due to classifying species and genera on solely morphological grounds. Indeed, ASM and IUCN do not classify it in Acrocodia; however, ITIS does, surprisingly. Would ITIS be considered the "main" authority (as with primates), and we should leave it in Acrocodia, or should we keep it in Tapirus as does ASM? Geekgecko (talk) 19:09, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- I've taken the view (and argued many times) that if the IUCN and ASM-MDD agree we should follow that. ITIS gets its data from other databases so will lag behind. — Jts1882 | talk 20:35, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- Done. Also agree to follow IUCN Red List + also wrote so many times. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:30, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Aurochs
Hey all : some of you may have noticed that I overhauled the aurochs page in the past couple of days. I'd appreciate if someone has time to have a look and reassess it for B-class. Cheerio, BhagyaMani (talk) 16:38, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hey @BhagyaMani:, I have reassessed the Aurochs talk page to a B-class. I was willing to do it. If you like, you can go the talk page and see the new class for it. Cheers. --Vaco98 (talk) 21:16, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- SUPER !! And thanks a ton for your swift assessment : that was so much faster than I anticipated. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
Bovid taxonomy
Presently, Wikipedia recognizes Aepycerotinae, Alcelaphinae, Antilopinae, Caprinae, Cephalophinae, Hippotraginae, Pantholopinae, Peleinae, and Reduncinae as all being separate subfamilies from one another. However, MammalDiversity instead classifies them all within Antilopinae and divides them as tribes. This treatment seems to go as far back as 17 years ago. Should we change the taxonomy accordingly? Given that some well-known species like goats and sheep are in this, I'd just like to ask here before I do it.Geekgecko (talk) 18:18, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- My opinion is to use the MDD taxonomy [Update: see caveats below]. The older classification is two decades old (by time of submission of research for the cutoff). The MDD takes account of recent developments (much not that recent) without going for the more controversial splitting in Groves & Grubb (2011). This gets discussed often enough, so maybe it needs someone to be WP:BOLD. — Jts1882 | talk 20:40, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks! Reason I'm asking is that I've had a couple of major edits based on MDD reverted (i.e. the splitting of Lagenorhynchus as well as Leontocebus being a separate genus), so I just wanted gain some acceptance here before sinking time into it. Geekgecko (talk) 17:03, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Looking at those two edits you mention, it seems that, in both cases the dispute is as to whether or not the MDD is "currently accepted" or not and therefore whether older, presumably more embedded, sources are more appropriate. Since this isn't just one editor doing the reverting, it may be that the issue is a wider one than just bovid taxonomy. Is the MDD a reliable source (surely it must be?), and, if so, to what extent should it be used where it conflicts with older sources? Anaxial (talk) 17:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
- If it was reverted then it has to be discussed to get consensus for the change. My thinking was that the issue of the best source for mammal taxonomy has been discussed many time and there is a general connsensus to follow IUCN and MDD when they agree, but not clear consensus to replace MSW3. By being bold one gets to see what people think is acceptable. If people object to the change then it needs discussion.
- On your two edits, I'd add the following caveats. For marine mammals, the best source is probably the Society for Marine Mammalogy, which is updated regularly by experts on the groups (I think the IUCN follow this). I also wouldn't blank an article and replace it with a redirect without prior discussion, unless it's only a stub. — Jts1882 | talk 18:00, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks! I'll keep this in mind.Geekgecko (talk) 22:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- Note that there is currently a discussion on Wikispecies about which databases should be considered the most authoritative for different taxonomic groups (see Village Pump#Taxonomic databases). HFoxii (talk) 06:10, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks! Reason I'm asking is that I've had a couple of major edits based on MDD reverted (i.e. the splitting of Lagenorhynchus as well as Leontocebus being a separate genus), so I just wanted gain some acceptance here before sinking time into it. Geekgecko (talk) 17:03, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment - I have reverted the bold move of Caprinae to Caprini for now, as I haven't seen conclusive evidence as to why we should move away from our previous treatment of this topic, and the Caprinae name was established through an RM, albeit one that I started and which was weakly attended. As far as I can tell IUCN still use Caprinae, as in the page [18], and Britannica articles such as [19] also still refer to the subfamily Caprinae. If we're going to say that Caprinae is the former name, with Caprini being the new one, then that should be properly sourced with evidence that the balance of usage is now in that direction. Otherwise, if it's just a disagreement between IUCN and MDD, then probably there isn't a good reason to alter the status quo, as per the comments above. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 10:52, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Jts1882 Thoughts on this? And Amakuru in my personal opinion, at least for higher-level taxonomy (on the genus level or above), the MDD should be a more authoritative source for taxonomy than the IUCN, as the IUCN is primarily focused on categorizing species and their conservation statuses, so it can afford to be a little more dated with taxonomy, while the MDD seems to focus more on the actual taxonomy itself. The ITIS hasn't updated its bovid taxonomy since 2012, so I'm not sure how authoritative it should be in this instance either. That said, a Google Scholar search seems to indicate that the proportion of studies in recent years that use the subfamily-level classification versus the tribe-level classification seem to be evenly split, so it could really be a coin toss. However, for the reason above, I'm more comfortable with using the MDD taxonomy. In addition, the MDD seems to have based its taxonomy on [this study] from last year (which may explain it placing the former Neotragus and current members of Nesotragus all in the same genus).Geekgecko (talk) 15:33, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- It's difficult when the IUCN and MDD disagree. The Caprini proposal goes back at least to the phylogeny presented in Hassanin et al (2009). The comments on Bovidae in MSW3 suggest that Caprinae and other subfamilies might be downgraded to tribes. However, the genomic analysis of Chen et al (2019) uses 8 non-bovine subfamilies (and Capridae in the figures, presumably mislabelled), so clearly there is no strong consensus. I can't access Calamari (2021) to see if this is a more formal taxonomic proposal. I suppose that while the IUCN and MDD disagree we fall back on MSW3 and adopt the Meatloaf philosophy.
- I agree that the higher taxonomy is not the priority for the IUCN Redlist, which changes slowly. For the Caprinae Specialist Group they would have to change their name and they are looking at the same animals regardless. The Reflist taxonomy can only change slowly as they do new assessments, which is why the redlist taxonomy for felids doesn't follow that of the IUCN Specialist Cat Group. On the other hand, the MDD might adopt changes too quickly, before there is a much consensus. We certainly don't want to be moving articles until a change seems accepted and stable. — Jts1882 | talk 17:06, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- A PDF for Calamari (2021) is available [here].Geekgecko (talk) 20:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. It's not available at BioOne where the DOI points. Semantic Scholar also point to a pdf from the biodiversity library.
- So this is a total evidence study and provides synapomorphic morphological characters to support the molecular analyses. This is often considered a requirement before making taxonomic changes, but this article doesn't make any. Where on MDD did thy cite this article? — Jts1882 | talk 12:00, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Hm, you're right. I can't actually find any references to this study on MDD. My eyes must have mislead me. So I'm not really sure what study the taxonomy is based on. For now, I'll go back to the original taxonomy.Geekgecko (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Jts1882's comment seems sensible to me. Wikipedia has never aspired to be an early adopter of trends which haven't fully caught on yet, which is why our guidelines such as WP:NAMECHANGES urge us to hold off moving until it's clear that the common name for something has decisively changed in a majority of sources. That doesn't appear to be the case here, given the instances mentioned where Caprinae is still in use. If there's further evidence of a decisive shift, I'll be happy to be re-persuaded! — Amakuru (talk) 22:31, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- Make sense. Now there's just the matter of reverting my changes, which I'll get to later. Geekgecko (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Managed to revert most of the changes back to their original state.Geekgecko (talk) 21:34, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- A PDF for Calamari (2021) is available [here].Geekgecko (talk) 20:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Jts1882 Thoughts on this? And Amakuru in my personal opinion, at least for higher-level taxonomy (on the genus level or above), the MDD should be a more authoritative source for taxonomy than the IUCN, as the IUCN is primarily focused on categorizing species and their conservation statuses, so it can afford to be a little more dated with taxonomy, while the MDD seems to focus more on the actual taxonomy itself. The ITIS hasn't updated its bovid taxonomy since 2012, so I'm not sure how authoritative it should be in this instance either. That said, a Google Scholar search seems to indicate that the proportion of studies in recent years that use the subfamily-level classification versus the tribe-level classification seem to be evenly split, so it could really be a coin toss. However, for the reason above, I'm more comfortable with using the MDD taxonomy. In addition, the MDD seems to have based its taxonomy on [this study] from last year (which may explain it placing the former Neotragus and current members of Nesotragus all in the same genus).Geekgecko (talk) 15:33, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Edit warring at Bos
56FireLeafs, a new editor who has had nearly half of their edits reverted, is persistently edit warring to remove Bison species from the Bos article, despite modern genetics studies consistently finding that Bison is nested within Bos [20] [21], and the American Society of Mammalologists includes Bison as a subgenus of Bos [22]. 56FL appears to lack understanding of how scientific consensus works, and is seemingly basing their objection upon original research [23], and the fact that the genus Bison continues to be widely used in the literature, usually without a comment on the taxonomy. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Hemiauchenia your starting to get irritating. The problem with Bison and Bos is that there is incomplete lineage shortage amongst the tribe Bovini. Genetic evidence says that Wisents are very closely related to American Bisons. And you forgot to mention that edit wars have multiple participants, yet i am the only one who is called out, which proves your bias. And as i told you, the American Society of Mammalologists includes Bison as a subgenus of Bos is irrelevant because A) It takes multiple studies to confirm the classification of organisms, and B)The ASM forgot the incomplete lineage shortage amongst Bovini. The fact that you already accused me in TWO pages already is giving me the impression that you have a personal grudge against me just because i disagree with your claims. Which is why i believe a discussion about this would be more appropriate. But no, you are not in favor of discussing the subject more deeply, you instead prefer to demonize me and claim that one article i enough to determine the classification of an organism who is in a group with INCOMPLETE LINEAGE SHORTAGE. Also, the genus Bison is still used in taxonomy today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:56FireLeafs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 56FireLeafs (talk • contribs) 01:53, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- You misunderstand the studies. There is strong support in both studies I listed that Bison is nested within Bos as the sister lineage of yaks based on nuclear DNA. Your claim that scientists seemingly haven't thought about ILS amongst the Bovini is WP:original research speculation without any basis in the scientific literature. The ILS claims in the literaure are about the discrepancies between the mitochondrial DNA of American bison and wisents, which could be explained by either introgression from other Bos species or ILS, there is absolutely no suggestion that Bison represents a separate lineage from Bos. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:03, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Additional papers discussing genomics of extinct bison species [24], [25], [26], mostly MTDNA unfortunately, which highlights the discrepancy between American Bison and wisent MTDNA is phenomenon common to other extinct bison species which dates to the Late Pleistocene at least. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:17, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Potentially [27] also might be useful, though I don't have access. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- From the literature, the consensus that has emerged over the last few years appears to be that Bison schoetensacki is closely related and probably ancestral to the wisent, while Bison priscus is closely related to the American bison (including ancestral chronospecies like Bison latifrons). Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:15, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- The European bison article uncritically repeats parts of the Soubrier et al. 2016 paper, when these results are contradicted by other papers, this should be corrected. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:41, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- It turns out there is another paper from 2018 [28]. I've gone ahead and rewritten the relevant sections. It's not clear that the Late Pleistocene bison lineage that some authors attribute to Bison schoetensacki actually belongs to this species, which is otherwise primarily known from the early Middle Pleistocene. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- 56FL has now been blocked for 72 hours by Cullen328. Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:22, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- It turns out there is another paper from 2018 [28]. I've gone ahead and rewritten the relevant sections. It's not clear that the Late Pleistocene bison lineage that some authors attribute to Bison schoetensacki actually belongs to this species, which is otherwise primarily known from the early Middle Pleistocene. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- The European bison article uncritically repeats parts of the Soubrier et al. 2016 paper, when these results are contradicted by other papers, this should be corrected. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:41, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- From the literature, the consensus that has emerged over the last few years appears to be that Bison schoetensacki is closely related and probably ancestral to the wisent, while Bison priscus is closely related to the American bison (including ancestral chronospecies like Bison latifrons). Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:15, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Potentially [27] also might be useful, though I don't have access. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Additional papers discussing genomics of extinct bison species [24], [25], [26], mostly MTDNA unfortunately, which highlights the discrepancy between American Bison and wisent MTDNA is phenomenon common to other extinct bison species which dates to the Late Pleistocene at least. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:17, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- You misunderstand the studies. There is strong support in both studies I listed that Bison is nested within Bos as the sister lineage of yaks based on nuclear DNA. Your claim that scientists seemingly haven't thought about ILS amongst the Bovini is WP:original research speculation without any basis in the scientific literature. The ILS claims in the literaure are about the discrepancies between the mitochondrial DNA of American bison and wisents, which could be explained by either introgression from other Bos species or ILS, there is absolutely no suggestion that Bison represents a separate lineage from Bos. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:03, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Bison: subgenus or genus?
The American Society of Mammalogists has sunk Bison into Bos, but the IUCN still consideres Bison to be a valid genus. Most palaeontological literature on bison still uses it as a separate genus, including the subgenera Bison (Eobison) and Bison (Bison). @56FireLeafs: has been edit warring in the Bison article to exclusively refer to it as a subgenus. Can I have some outside input? Thanks. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:25, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- There is no question that bison species are nested in Bos and that the taxonomy needs to be updated. The ASM-MDD has done so, as does the Illustrated Checklist of the Mammals of the World (according to the MDD spreadsheet). The IUCN splits concern for Bovini between specialist groups, one of which is the bison specialist group, and both of which seem focused on conservation. While I think the case is clear to follow the MDD, my usual advice on the mammal taxonomy is to make the change from MSW3 when the MDD and IUCN agree.
- One thing I don't think we should do it treat Bison as a subgenus of Bos. The MDD doesn't so this would need an authoritative source. While it makes sense for the bison, it would need to be a formal revision with subgenera for other Bos species.— Jts1882 | talk 14:41, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
RFC: Taxonomy of Cattle
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This RFC affects the following articles: cattle, aurochs, taurine cattle, zebu, Bos.
Currently, these articles show contradictory and inconsistant information about the taxonomy of cattle. This is due to the fact that the different types of cattle were recently re-established as separate species after previously being considered sub-species of a single species. Both taxonomies are contentious and neither is universally accepted by reliable sources. Wikipedia, however, needs to choose one or the other and implement it consistantly. Please indicate which taxonomy you believe Wikipedia should follow:
Taxonomy A
According to MSW3, the taxonomy of cattle is:[29]
- Bos taurus (domestic cattle)
- Bos taurus taurus (taurine cattle)
- Bos taurus indicus (zebu)
- Bos taurus primigenius (aurochs, the undomesticated ancestor)
In this case, the cattle article would correspond with the taxon Bos taurus.
Taxonomy B
According to Mammal Diversity Database, the taxonomy of cattle is:[30]
- Bos taurus (taurine cattle)
- Bos indicus (zebu)
- Bos primigenius (aurochs, the undomesticated ancestor)
In this case, the cattle article would correspond with the subgenus Bos (not to be confused with the genus Bos).
This RFC does not affect the classication of Bison and does not serve as a referendum on the overall use of MDD or MSW3 on Wikipedia. It's scope is limited to domestic cattle and aurochs.
Kaldari (talk) 19:47, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Jts1882, Hemiauchenia, Amakuru, HFoxii, Anaxial, Geekgecko, BhagyaMani, and DFoidl: pinging editors who have discussed this issue on the various talk pages so that we can reach a common consensus. Kaldari (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Whether or not domesticated forms are considered distinct species or subspecies of their wild ancestors is really arbitrary and essentially just semantics. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Weak B: While it's an essentially arbitrary decision with no one "right" answer, my preference is to go with the newer source since there seems to be a move recently to give domesticated species their own names. There are also significantly more ghits and google-scholar-hits for "Bos indicus" specifically than for "Bos primigenius indicus", suggesting that it's the more commonly used name. (Although both clearly are used, with different authors preferring different ones, even in very recent sources). MDD justifies their stance on the grounds that it makes discussions of conservation easier, which doesn't apply to us, but since there's no one objectively correct answer I'd go with what seems to be the more common name. On the other hand, I don't feel strongly about it beyond the fact that we should obviously mention both alternatives in the text of the relevant articles. Anaxial (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- "… makes discussions of conservation easier, which doesn't apply to us …" meaning what? ~ cygnis insignis 15:13, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- B: Agree with Anaxial for the same reason. However, it is worth noting that if we do so, we should probably give this treatment to all domestic animals considered distinct species by the MDD (i.e. classifying E. ferus w/ the tarpan and Przewalksi's horse and E. caballus with the domestic horse as distinct species), as the MDD seems to cite the same paper (Gentry, A., Clutton-Brock, J., & Groves, C. P. (2004)) for all of them. That example change is actually backed up by the IUCN, which classifies E. ferus as an endangered species based on the Przewalksi's horse alone. Geekgecko (talk) 21:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- We should follow Opinion 2027 of the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature, which recognises domestic cattle as Bos taurus and the aurochs as Bos primigenius, see[1] – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (2003). "Opinion 2027 (Case 3010). Usage of 17 specific names based on wild species which are pre-dated by or contemporary with those based on domestic animals (Lepidoptera, Osteichthyes, Mammalia)". The Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature. 60 (1): 81–84.
- Comment: Above Opinion 2027 indeed covers other wild and domestic species too. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- @BhagyaMani: That is not quite accurate. Opinion 2027 does not mention Bos taurus whatsoever, but it does accept Bos primigenius for the aurochs. I am not aware of any source that classifies all domestic cattle as Bos taurus and aurochs as Bos primigenius. The sources I have seen either follow Taxonomy A or Taxonomy B above. Do you prefer one of those two or are you proposing a third taxonomy? Kaldari (talk) 22:33, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Opinion 2027 clarifies that wild ancestors of domestic species are recognised as being distinct taxa. See also Groves & Grubb (2011), who refer to this opinion on page 8. Your 'Taxonomy B' seems to follow Groves & Grubb (2011). – BhagyaMani (talk) 23:00, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- A clarification. Opinion 2027 determines what the name of the wild form should be be if the name of domesticated form has precedence. It is about the correct name to use. It is neutral on whether domestic forms should be treated at the species or subspecies level. Iirc, the Gentry et al (2004) paper makes the case that all domestic forms should be treated a species level. This argument is largely about conservation efforts, as national legislation tends to recognise endangered species. However, I think species recognition of domesticated forms matches the goals of an encyclopaedia to provide useful articles about subjects readers are looking up. People looking for information on domestic animal might be surprised to find themselves at on article covering the wild animal. This goes against my preference to follow monophyletic groups, in which case I think only the dog would be treated at species level. Strangely the dog taxonomists are hold-outs against species recognition. — Jts1882 | talk 09:57, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Opinion 2027 clarifies that wild ancestors of domestic species are recognised as being distinct taxa. See also Groves & Grubb (2011), who refer to this opinion on page 8. Your 'Taxonomy B' seems to follow Groves & Grubb (2011). – BhagyaMani (talk) 23:00, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- @BhagyaMani: That is not quite accurate. Opinion 2027 does not mention Bos taurus whatsoever, but it does accept Bos primigenius for the aurochs. I am not aware of any source that classifies all domestic cattle as Bos taurus and aurochs as Bos primigenius. The sources I have seen either follow Taxonomy A or Taxonomy B above. Do you prefer one of those two or are you proposing a third taxonomy? Kaldari (talk) 22:33, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Above Opinion 2027 indeed covers other wild and domestic species too. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)