User talk:Jimbo Wales

Issue regarding the Taraškievica Belarusian Wikipedia (be-tarask)

Hey there! Thought I'd message you about some concerns of mine regarding the lack of neutrality on the be-tarask Wikipedia, and hopefully some other members of the community who know a bit more might weigh in on the issue. I ought to preface this with the fact I know the situation is politically volatile (especially given recent events), that I am in no way an expert in the subject area, and that my only desire is to seek neutrality on Wikipedia in all languages, however ambitious a goal this may seem at times.

Currently, its article on Alexander Lukashenko says in part:

Alexander Lukashenko ... is the head of the Russian occupation administration, a puppet, pro-Russian, authoritarian leader of Belarus who holds power by rigging elections and terrorizing Belarusians with financial, military, and informational support from Russia. ... On April 21, Russian President Vladimir Putin mentioned Belarus in the context of an alleged FSB attempt to overthrow the Lukashenko regime as a Russian-controlled territory in which Russia would determine what was a coup and what was not.

(At least, according to Google Translate). A similar descriptor is given on the "Lukashenko regime" article (which also exists in Ukrainian, but seems to use more neutral language).

There also appears to be a "Russian occupation of Belarus" article (does not exist in any other language, including standard Belarusian), which says:

The Russian occupation of Belarus is the de facto Russian occupation of Belarus, an open demonstration of which took place on February 24, 2022, when the Russian invasion of Ukraine took place, including from the territory of Belarus. The Russian occupation administration is a puppet regime of Lukashenko, its head is the proclaimed "president" Alexander Lukashenko. One of the main measures taken by the Russian authorities (the Russian Empire, the USSR, the Russian Federation) and its occupation administrations at different times is the continuous violent Russification of Belarusians. The term "Russian occupation of Belarus" first appeared in the autumn of 1917.

This seems to be promoting false histories and original research: Lukashenko is pro-Russian and authoritarian, but it is not an "occupation" regime in the conventional sense (at least, this doesn't seem to be how RS refer to the country/leadership). The link to 1917 and Russification also appear novel.

These are just two that caught my eye. I don't know whether this is new information, i.e. are there known issues with that site? (Taraškievica is a standard for the Belarusian language which is usually used by the diaspora, so it's not inconceivable that it is likely to attract anti-regime editors). If so, is this limited to a few articles or a more ingrained issue of ideological bias on the Taraškievica wiki in a similar vein to the Croatian Wikipedia situation? —AFreshStart (talk) 15:15, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't know. But I think it extremely important (and often quite difficult) that Wikipedia be neutral in all languages. Since I don't speak Belarusian or Russian, and since Google translate is often quite naturally lacking in nuance, I think it is important for us to encourage community members who do speak those languages as well as another language (typically, English) to thoughtfully engage and discuss and communicate what is going on. Even this is difficult because it is sometimes the case that a person with a fairly strong POV to come to English screaming that some small language Wikipedia is viciously biased but that's actually their own bias. So it takes a group of people to check each others work and biases in the best kind and thoughtful Wikipedia way to really answer the question: is this fair? Is this true? Is this appropriately handling the concerns of all sides?

I think we can hold both of these thoughts in mind: first, that neutral presentation of facts is always possible and always desirable and always our goal. Second, that even good people in emotional circumstances (bombs falling, Wikipedians personally in danger) will find it very difficult. We should expect (even if we wish it weren't so) that on some specific topics, the treatment in one language will vary to a disagree from the treatment in another language of a 'hot' topic. We can lament that and work to improve it, but we shouldn't beat people up if they are trying and finding it emotionally quite hard.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:24, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The main line of this argument reminds me that all people want peace in the world, even Vladimir Putin. I don't see the problem of user neutrality as relevant, but it comes from the political and cultural bias of the Wikipedia:Administrators who end up imposing their Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. This is the normality in Wikipedia.es (Spanish) with a very high number of administrators with socialist or communist leaning ideologies. I think Wikipedia should study and resolve this conflict of interests of its own Wikipedia:Administrators because the impact of a group of administrators cooperating in the same political direction is even scary.--Vicentemovil (talk) 13:53, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia.es and Vladimir Putin

As you are a creator, you should know that Wikipedia.es (in Spanish) provides propaganda support and fake news under a supposed "neutrality" in support of Vladimir Putin's military aggression against Ukraine.see --Vicentemovil (talk) 11:56, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The link you provided doesn't seem to go anywhere, even after fixing the formatting...--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:57, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

For Wikipedia, Fidel Castro was not a dictator - "he was a Cuban Marxist lawyer, politician and guerrilla fighter"- but Batista was. Augusto Pinochet Ugarte was "a Chilean military man, politician and dictator" but Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías was "a Venezuelan politician and military man". Xi Jinping, besides being President of China "is a Chinese politician and chemical engineer, who currently serves as General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China" and Nicolás Maduro Moros, besides being President of Venezuela "is a Venezuelan politician, diplomat and trade union leader".

Somalo, Javier (2022-03-05). "Putin, hombre muerto" [Putin, dead man]. Libertad digital (in Spanish). Madrid. Retrieved 2022-03-07.

Other opinions in the same line:

Boyer, Milagros (2021-02-22). "Tres evidencias de cómo Wikipedia oculta atrocidades del socialismo" [Three evidences of how Wikipedia hides socialist atrocities]. Panam post (in Spanish). LA. Retrieved 2022-03-07.

Ferrer, Pablo (2021-03-12). "Más censura en internet: Wikipedia eliminará los genocidios comunistas por considerar que es información "sesgada". O sea, crítico con el comunismo" [More censorship on the Internet: Wikipedia will remove communist genocides as "biased" information. That is, critical of communism]. Hispanidad (in Spanish). Spain. Retrieved 2022-03-07.--Vicentemovil (talk) 17:04, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

This practice reflects the practice in reliable sources. As Sidney Goldberg explained in the Wall Street Journal, "[Webster's New World College Dictionary] can call Hitler the "Nazi dictator of Germany" but Stalin merely the "Soviet premier, general secretary of the Communist party of the U.S.S.R." Mussolini is an "Italian dictator," but Tito is "Yugoslav Communist Party leader, prime minister and president of Yugoslavia." Franco is "dictator of Spain" and Salazar "prime minister and dictator of Portugal," but Mao Tse-tung is "Chinese Communist leader, chairman of the People's Republic of China and of its Communist Party.""[1] It could have to do with the fact that Hitler, Mussolini and Franco were de jure dictators, while Stalin, Tito and Mao were de facto dictators. In any case, the practice pre-dates Putin. TFD (talk) 17:49, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

As much as I detest the Spanish-speaking version of Wikipedia (there are way too many problems with that version to enlist them here, but they can be summarized as 'quantity over quality'), Boyer and Ferrer are talking about our article Mass killings under communist regimes and the respective AFD. Somalo's opinion is still true, though. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 18:07, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Something nice

You may be interested, User:BeenAroundAWhile, who will be 90 years around in April and started editing here when he was 73, just achieved 100,000 edits. 73 seems just about the age that many people may be interested in getting involved in Wikipedia, a vast untapped volunteer demographic of long memories and years of professional writing which BeenAroundAWhile symbolizes. I left him a congrats message for his 100,000 edit and maybe others may enjoy doing so. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:23, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedian arrested

User:Pessimist2006, a prolific editor of the Russian Wikipedia, was arrested earlier today in his residence in Minsk for his contributions to articles about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, as part of an effort to deanonymize and apprehend Wikipedia users in Russia and Belarus who run afoul of the infamous "false information" law in Russia.[2] (in Russian). Russian Wikipedia administrators are currently taking steps at re-anonymizing edits of other threatened users (and generally freaking out). I understand WMF is already informed on this development, however, I don't see any discussions on this topic on enwiki and would like to raise awareness of this here. Global preventive measures may be necessary to at least warn users from Russia and Belarus that they may endanger themselves by making edits that are now "against the law" in Russia.

If I am not mistaken, this is the first case of a Wikipedia user being arrested specifically for their contributions. If so, this is a dark milestone in Wikipedia history. --illythr (talk) 22:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)