Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

Link to most recent closed and archived RfC: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The heading above is a link to the archived RfC: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022.

See also earlier RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022.

Both RfCs were closed with "no consensus". Cinderella157 (talk) 08:27, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Peace efforts

Someone is reverting and re-adding the Peace section to this article which is already covered in two other Wikipedia articles. It is a fully Redundant section. It already has its own article at Main article: 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations. Also it is covered in the new 2022 Reactions article created last week. Is there support for keeping three copies of this section on Wikipedia, or should it be deleted from this 2022 Invasion article? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes it should not be here, it needs to be mentioned in the article about the war, and maybe the timeline. Slatersteven (talk) 14:59, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello, someone removed without reason the Peace efforts section. It is a significant topic, which is very relevant to the article, so it should be mentioned here, there is no reason to delete it. It already has its own article, therefore, the link should be mentioned here, it is a significant topic. For these, there should be a paragraph with a link (it is not anywhere in the article). Jirka.h23 (talk) 15:09, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

What is the reason? Are you saying that this topic is redundant? I definitely cannot agree with that, it is an important topic, which can affect the entire invasion and definitely related to this article - and not for another article about the war, as these negotiations began just from the beginning of this invasion. As I still do not see a reason for deleting the text from the stable version, I request its restoration. Jirka.h23 (talk) 15:35, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

@Jirka.h23: I believe what Slatersteven meant was that if there is disagreement about it, we need to discuss it first before re-adding it (otherwise it can quickly become an WP:EDITWAR). We can do it right here, and I'll start by saying that I agree that the section should be in the article. It is very reasonable for a casual reader (for whom we are writing this encyclopedia) to ask about a possible peace. And yes, we have a standalone article, but it's not comfortable for a reader to have to type and search for it, when we have dozens and dozens more of wikilinks to far less interesting things in the article. A (short!) section on the peace efforts should be here. It is actually fairly commonplace to have such a short excerpts in a longer article, and link to the main article there. We even have a template just for that, Template:Main. That's not "redundant", that's good practice. So I support the re-addition. --LordPeterII (talk) 15:50, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

First of all, Slatersteven and ErnestKrause I apologize if I rushed this a bit and if I was unpleasant (I didn't liked that revert, and that after the first revert I got a warning about edit war on my talk page). But Slatersteven is right, if there is disagreement, it should be discussed first. Anyway, I went through the history and found out that this paragraph was here until 11 August, when user ErnestKrause deleted it (who reverted my edit), so if there was a mention of it about half a year (almost from the beginning of this article), it should be him, who should defend the change of this article. I just basically reverted it to the stable version. Anyway, I agree with LordPeterII, that the section on the peace efforts with link to the main article should be here and that it's not 'redundant', it is one of the important things in relation to the invasion and therefore to the subject of this article. I suggest reverting to the previous state. Jirka.h23 (talk) 05:14, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Which for me is another reason not to mention it, they went nowhere. Slatersteven (talk) 09:22, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Support for Slatersteven on this. The Peace subsection being discussed here was never "removed" from Wikipedia, but it was split into a new Wikipedia article here on 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions. A page split is different than removing an article on Wikipedia, and the full text of the Peace subsection can be read in its entirety on the new Reactions article which I've just linked above. In addition to that, there is also the Peace article on Wikipedia which discusses the details of the Invasion peace attempts for those interested in this history. These are currently linked in the Invasion article for readers who need to read the details. That means that there are already two versions of the Peace subsection on Wikipedia, and re-adding a third one in this article seems redundant. Three copies of essentially the same material in three Wikipedia articles is redundant and not consistent with Wikipedia editing policy. I'm supporting the comments made by Slatersteven on this. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

It should be brief mentioned/summarised and a link to the main WP should of course be added. I've had a brief look at the edit in question and it looks summarised and brief enough if you ask me. Basedosaurus (talk) 12:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

The peace efforts have gone nowhere so far and will likely go nowhere in the future, but the media provides a lot of reports and commentary on these efforts, which is all that matters for inclusion. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

The Foreign Affairs' latest article on the topic definitely has something to add. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 15:01, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I think that users ErnestKrause and Slatersteven have not presented any serious explanations why this important information, which mainly affects the topic of this article, should be removed from this article. This paragraph was here until 11 August, and since consensus was not found, moreover 3:2 were in favor to preserve the text, it should be returned to the stable version that were here for about half a year (almost from the beginning of this article). Jirka.h23 (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree, it should be re-added, as I have said above. No convincing argument against its inclusion has been given; we have such short-summarising-sections-with-a-link-to-the-main-page in literally hundreds of Wikipedia articles. @ErnestKrause and Slatersteven: If you can't stand the section at all, I invite you to start an RfC on it; but I'm not going to begin another one about such a trivial thing. Please go ahead and re-add that part, Jirka.h23. –LordPickleII (talk) 16:49, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I've added another link to the Peace article from the Reactions section. In addition to the previously made link to the new 2022 Reactions article, the Reaction article section on Peace also links the Peace talks discussion as presented in that article. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok LordPickleII, I returned it. Jirka.h23 (talk) 18:01, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

There is no consensus for restoring your edit and forcing it into the article. Your edit is reverted until you establish consensus. Both Slatersteven and myself have reverted your edit by Wikipedia policy for BRD. Establish consensus on Talk page prior to further edits in the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:32, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

You are wrong, there is no consensus to remove it from the stable version. It is you who should find a consensus. Anyway, now it is 3:2 to keep the paragraph. So do not delete that sourced text, it is very related to the article. Not following Wikipedia policy (not found consensus for your change from the stable version, deleting sourced text) may lead to your blocking, take it as a warning. Jirka.h23 (talk) 18:41, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: If you do not believe consensus is reached, kindly start a WP:RfC. I strongly suspect it would fail, because neither of you has given any policy-based reasoning for excluding the info. What do you think Template:Main exists for? It's to deal with cases exactly like these. Sorry if I was too quick, but it doesn't make sense to me that you would use "no consensus" as a reason to exclude the content indefinitely, when you have neither argumentative nor numerical support in the discussion. To give some more info on my view: I am arguing based on WP:SS, a guideline that clearly is in favour of "content duplication" like the one in question here. Also, don't forget that we are writing an encyclopedia for a reader: You might be perfectly right if this was an archive, and you'd not want duplicate information, as anyone could take their time and research, or ask you as the archivist. But Wikipedia is used by many different people, everyday, who have no idea how an ideal structure would look like, and who are likely not thinking "Hey, this invasion sounds pretty bad, I wonder why they don't make peace? I'll now scroll down to the Reactions section, open the correct one of the six linked articles there, and then scroll down until I find the corresponding section, then click the article linked there, and voilá, I've already found it!" Don't expect a 10 or 70 year old random internet user to be able to do that. We need the to write for our WP:AUDIENCE, that is, put the readers first. Think about it, and maybe you can understand why we want to restore that section. –LordPickleII (talk) 20:56, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

LordPickleII, user ErnestKrause is not a very experienced editor, he started editing (very actively) last year, maybe he doesn't know what is WP:RfC. I don't know what to do in such cases, I still believe that we can come to an understanding here.Jirka.h23 (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

@Jirka.h23: I have respect for ErnestKrause because they have contributed a lot to this article. Maybe they haven't edited that long, but their edits are high-quality mostly; anyway I was a bit quick to suggest a RfC. Btw, I've just checked and see you have achieved a Featured Article even, @ErnestKrause, nice!

I had participated in some discussions lately that grinded to a halt for no reason, so sorry if I was a little snarky there. Your contributions are appreciated, and I hope you can see both I and Jirka.h23 don't want to make the article worse, we really believe that the short "Peace efforts" section would benefit the article greatly. I hope you and Slatersteven can reconsider; I wouldn't even mind an even shorter section, as long as there is an easy way for readers to be informed that "peace talks happened, yielded no result, for more details please click here". –LordPickleII (talk) 19:23, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I didn't mean it disrespectful, rather as a reflection (or possibility) on why he is not responding to the RfC call.Jirka.h23 (talk) 11:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it is a redundant section in this article. It can be included as a new section in summary form. IntrepidContributor (talk) 11:25, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

There is already the link I added in response to Based above in the Reactions section of this article which mentions the peace process and links the article which already includes the full copy of the Peace section being discussed here on Talk, which states: "Reactions to the invasion have varied considerably across a broad spectrum of concerns including media responses, peace efforts and the examination of the legal implications of the invasion." I'm agreeing with Slatersteven that re-duplicating that section here in this article is unnecessary. Also, the topic of Peace is normally discussed as an answer to War, such as the Wikipedia article for the Russo-Ukraine War, and not in response to an "invasion" in and of itself. Is there a reason why the editors here, Jirka and LordPeter, have not even tried to place the Peace section in the Russo-Ukraine War article where this discussion appears to have a better placement. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I am agreeing with the editors that the subject merits its own section. I believe that a section on the peace efforts, including the discarded Minsk agreements, should be included in Russo-Ukraine War and the War in Donbas too. Any new peace process will mostly be in response to the recent invasion, which is a part of a longer conflict but constitutes a significant escalation and flagrant violation of the Mink agreements. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:23, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: This article here is presently "ongoing" in the news. I am reading it to inform myself about the ongoing crisis, and, although that is only anecdotal, all of my irl friends and acquaintances do only read this article. Yes, from a professional, academic point of view you might be right; but if this was a library, with finished, printed books, then the Invasion wouldn't be your to-go article, and you would start with the war overview. I would not mind having several more "Peace efforts" sections in other articles if you'd like that, but I am specifically voting to have one here, based on my arguments above. Can you at least acknowledge them? I just see no guideline- or policy-based rational for your decision to exclude them, and several more editors have spoken in favour of re-adding them. This must not become an edit war; but this must also not become an instance were two editors can block something for abstract reasons. Repeating that you agree with Slatersteven does not make your point any more convincing: It's the opinion of you two, and I can respect that. But consensus can overrule an opinion, and you must accept that possibility. If you do not wish to bring new arguments, I am going to start an RfC. –LordPickleII (talk) 17:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

The re-duplication of identical material on multiple articles at Wikipedia is discouraged by Wikipedia AfD policy about articles which cover essentially the same material. Also, if you are stating that you wish to re-publish the exact same material for Peace on the pages for Russo-Ukraine War, War in Donbas, 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions, 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations, and now this article for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine then that will be seen as appearing like POV-pushing. My suggestion is still that you try to add this section of the main article for the war which is at Russo-Ukraine War, which you still have not tried to do. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:16, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: Well, how is this POV-pushing? This isn't about my personal views (if you are interested in these:*start POV* I would love peace, but I can only see that coming once Russia is pushed back. Peace efforts until then are futile, Ukraine needs weapons. *end POV*), it's purely about policy and consensus. That you bring up an AfD policy now is at least a fresh development – could you link to it please? In any case, I think an WP:RfC is really warranted now, as the only way to get this to a conclusion without bad blood. I shall start one. –LordPickleII (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

ErnestKrause, I do not consider mention of it on other pages to be so important, mainly because they are directly related to this article and this year's invasion, on sites like the Russo-Ukraine War and others it can also be mentioned, but it should be found mainly here. ErnestKrause and Slatersteven do you think there is any point in convincing you and that you could change your mind? Now it is 4:2 to leave the paragraph, but I would like to resolve this with you as well. Regards Jirka.h23 (talk) 11:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I can add no more to what I have already said, this is not about the war, its, about a campaign. We do not (for example) discuss peace talks in the article about the battle of the bulge or Verdun. Slatersteven (talk) 11:43, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

You didn't say this before, what do you mean "not about the war", it is all about the war, more specifically about this invasion, the peace negotiations started after this invasion, so it relates exactly to this article, I see no reason to delete these important events. So in this case, if only two users are pushing the article change, we could be forced to use the RfC. Or one more question, I'm going to repeat myself, but you still haven't answered it here, if this paragraph was here until 11 August, when user ErnestKrause deleted it, and there was a mention of it about half a year (almost from the beginning of this article), it should be him, who should defend the change of this article, meanwhile, according to the rules, the article should change to a stable state, am I right? Jirka.h23 (talk) 12:17, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

My OP "Yes it should not be here, it needs to be mentioned in the article about the war", my stance was always this is not an article about the wider war, so any material that is more about the wider war should be in that article. All I just did was to elaborate more on why. I have had my say, I can add no more other than to reiterate the same arguments worded in different ways. There is no point in continuously pining me for my opinion, you have it. But you are correct, if this was long-standing content, (how long was it here?) then yes, the onus should be on those wishing to remove it to get consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

"my stance was always this is not an article about the wider war, so any material that is more about the wider war should be in that article." If I understand it correctly, you don't mind this mention in the broader article, but here, which discusses this year's invasion, it does. In that case, that makes no sense to me, the peace talks have a direct connection to this invasion, in the wider article also many other connections can be discussed. Anyway, if that's the case, we'll take your opinion into consideration. But thanks for confirming my point, and so I ask again ErnestKrause to stop meanwhile removing this paragraph.Jirka.h23 (talk) 12:47, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Support of Slatersteven, who is making perfectly good sense. Also, Wikipedia is not a forum for polling or voting. Establishing consensus is not a tally of votes. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:05, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Good that you agree with him, so now you can try to find a consensus, or create an RfC to remove the paragraph. But I ask you again not to delete the paragraph straight away.Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

This article is about the post-2022 phase of the Russo-Ukrainian war which is a part of the wider war. It looks like it will overshadow the previous 8 years of the conflict which means that there is quite a lot of overlap. Ideally we should agree on some kind of a framework but I think we are not there yet. In the meantime the reader (who might have come via a wikilink from the Main Page) is likely to be interested in knowing about the peace negotiations and therefore this article should have a short summary and a link to the main article on the negotiations. Alaexis_¿question? 10:23, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The general approach in the international press has been that there have been three phases in the Russo-Ukraine War since the annexation of Crimea. The first was the process of the anexation of Crimea itself, which was followed by an Interim Period of conflict between Russia and Ukraine mostly in the Donbas region, which was followed by the two phases of the current 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Discussion here on the Talk page should be consistent with the general approach taken in the international press about the Russo-Ukraine War as a whole. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:15, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I do not disagree with this but I don't see how it refutes (or supports, for that matter) my argument that a short summary here would be helpful. Alaexis_¿question? 18:57, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you that there should be at least a brief paragraph. Two editors have tried to remove it, but have not yet found a consensus. You are already the fifth person who is in favor of its preservation. We have agreed to leave the stable version for now.Jirka.h23 (talk) 13:05, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

There is no consensus at present on the Talk page and your edit is reverted according to Wikipedia policy for BRD. Two editors have already notified you on your Talk page that you appear to be edit warring against Wikipedia policy. Could I ask that you stop edit warring. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:24, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Do you understand the written word? There is no consensus for removal the paragraph. As agreed, the page returns to the stable version before your editing (also with the second editor who firstly reverted). Find consensus for removal first, otherwise you can be blocked for not following the Wikipedia policy. Jirka.h23 (talk) 13:47, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: The general approach in the international press has been that there have been three phases in the Russo-Ukraine War since the annexation of Crimea. [...] – meaning? I'm sorry, I just really can't follow your reasoning. If you point to the press reaction, then the peace efforts were definitely covered, and almost exclusively as a result of the current invasion. I agree that longer term, we may need some restructuring. But at present, all news are talking about the Invasion, nothing else, because it is ongoing and the major development in what had otherwise been a relatively "restrained" war. –LordPickleII (talk) 13:19, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I've reverted the renewed addition of this section as it does not appear to me that clear consensus has been reached. If the talk page is deadlocked, someone should call an wp:RfC.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Ermenrich yes, consensus was not reached for your edit (removal of the sourced content) and five people are against. Therefore the page returns to stable version, find first consensus for removal of the paragraph. Thanks.Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

That is not the stable version. The article hasn't had a section on this for a while. The WP:ONUS for adding a section rests on you.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:12, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes it is. I have returned it on 27 August, this paragraph was here until 11 August, when you deleted it, so it was just 16 days, and there was a mention of it about half a year (almost from the beginning of this article). As said Slatersteven, the onus should be on those wishing to remove it to get consensus, and I agree on that.Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:19, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

You appear to be edit warring against multiple editors who have asked you to stop edit warring until Talk page discussion for BRD is completed. Your edit is reverted. Can I ask that you stop your serial reverts to this article which multiple editors have asked you to stop doing on your Talk page. Both Slatersteven and Ermenrich have asked that you stop edit warring on your Talk page. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:34, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Please do not lie. It is only you who is forcing your edit against stable version (with the second we agrred that you shold first find consesus for removal of sourced content). I think that the page should be locked against your disruptive editing.Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:41, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I was wrong if you both start with "E" :-) So there are two of you, it doesn't change the fact that he should first find a consensus to remove the long-standing paragraph. Jirka.h23 (talk) 14:47, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Your are presently edit warring and reverting against multiple editors on the article main space. Could I ask that you stop edit warring against multiple editors who have also contacted you on your Talk page. Could you revert your edit and return to the Talk page here for discussion following Wikipedia policy for BRD? ErnestKrause (talk) 14:50, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

It should be here. Having a main article does not mean it can't be mentioned here. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 14:56, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

"Supported by..." is missing

Ukraine gets military support by a number of nations, but that is still missing in this article.

Is there any explanation for this, since articles about other wars clearly state it? Daimler92 (talk) 11:20, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, see all the talk page threads about this. Slatersteven (talk) 11:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

See the second question in the FAQ: A discussion took place to decide whether countries supplying arms should be listed in the infobox, and the outcome was 'No Consensus'. Please do not add individual countries without discussing here first. While consensus can change, please review the closed discussion, and try to bring forward novel arguments. Kleinpecan (talk) 12:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

So can we now add NK to the list of nations supporting Russia https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62804825? Slatersteven (talk) 09:46, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: Well, the good guys have to stick together, right? ;) –LordPickleII (talk) 19:43, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Campaignbox

I disagree with proposed deletion of Russian and Ukraine war because need keep it for research purposes that I always do. 49.224.220.170 (talk) 09:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Not clear what you mean; the Invasion article here is not being discussed for deletion. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:50, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

‹ The template Campaignbox 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is being considered for deletion. ›

shown below the campaignbox 153.111.229.202 (talk) 22:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

IP is right, there is a discussion about it, but it's happening here (though it seems IP has already found it). –LordPickleII (talk) 19:09, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 August 2022

Update Donbas map in the Second Phase section to say as of August 23 Physeters^✉ 08:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: Thanks again for your continued updates to this resource Physeters. Just a quick clarification: looks like the last date that appears on the map shows Aug 21. I went ahead and changed the caption to reflect that date. Is there some other place I missed that should show 23 August? --N8_wilson 🔔 12:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@N8wilson I didn't even realize that description needed updating, but you're referring to the wrong file. I am talking about the map in the Second phase – Donbas front; Fall of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk section. The current full text description of the image is "Military control around Donbas as of 31 May 2022". I updated the file on August 23. so the description should reflect this. Physeters^✉ 18:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done Ah ha! I thought I remember seeing edit requests from you before which were clear, concise, and correct so I figured I had just overlooked something. Thanks for the update Physeters. Think I got it right this time. Again - we appreciate your help with these visual resources! --N8_wilson 🔔 19:17, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@N8wilson You got it right this time, and you are very welcome. I wrote the request rather late at night, so I apologize if it was unclear. Physeters^✉ 19:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

All good Physeters! You mentioned "Donbas" in the original ER and I was working quickly and just missed it. You're still batting 1000 in my book. --N8_wilson 🔔 19:45, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@N8wilson Thanks! :) Physeters^✉ 19:47, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Better caption needed for EUR/Ruble exchange rate

I suspect the graph EUR/Ruble exchange rate is showing the number of rubles required to buy one euro. But readers are left with doubt, so it would be helpful to have more explicit description of the graph. I would make the edit myself but I am not completely sure of what it is meant to show. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 20:53, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

@Humphrey Tribble: Yeah I agree it was confusing. Expanded the caption a bit to hopefully make it clearer after checking online that it's definitely that way around (i.e., the graph shows how many Rubles you would get for one Euro). –LordPickleII (talk) 19:05, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

"Estonia has removed a remaining Soviet era monument from a square in Tallinn" in response to the invasion is incorrect, it was a T-34 tank and it was in Narva

The source that the person who wrote it provided even says that it was the Narva tank monument that was removed, not Tallinn! The WW2 monument in Tallinn was moved in 2007, not now. Please fix this error. BananasAreViolet (talk) 13:54, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

@BananasAreViolet: Done. Thanks for spotting that! I left "monument" since the tank was a replica and mounted like a monument, so I think that's not wrong (the city was). –LordPickleII (talk) 18:54, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Pretty sure all those T-34 monuments had real tanks on them. —Michael Z. 19:12, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Just from a quick look around, most news articles have mentioned the Narva monument was a replica of a T-34 (here and here, for example). Couldn't find anything more definitive though. Desan5 (talk) 23:29, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

From the wording it’s clear that sentence in those two was paraphrased from the same original source. One could find the ERR source and confirm whether it’s a translation error or something else, if one thought it was worth the effort.

Anyway, it’s wrong, it’s immaterial to the subject, and it shouldn’t be repeated in article text. No one manufactured replica T-34 tanks during post-war reconstruction when there were tens of thousands of surplus tanks throughout Central and Eastern Europe. —Michael Z. 13:49, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

How is this important? I think this addition should be in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine reactions article, not here. There are a lot of more important details that, in my opinion, have higher priority. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 13:25, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I would agree. Slatersteven (talk) 13:31, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Me too, actually. That's a prime example of content that should be moved. –LordPickleII (talk) 13:33, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Someome pls add this

-As of early september. Russia intends to purchase artillery and MLRS ammunition from North Korea
It should go under foreign support section, the section is very heavy on the support Ukraine receives and very lacking in the supporters of Russia. --Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 12:41, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

While I used this above, lets us not forget this is unconfirmed. There is a similar story about Drones for Iran, but lets wait for confirmation. Slatersteven (talk) 12:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Peace negotiations

Alaexis, I have reverted your addition because the idea that Boris Johnson single-handedly prevented the war from ending is being pushed by Kremlin-aligned sources and does not accurately represent what at least one of the sources you cited says. I cannot access the Foreign Affairs article, but Ukrainska Pravda says the following: "The Russian side…was actually ready for the Zelenskyy-Putin meeting. But two things happened, after which a member of the Ukrainian delegation, Mykhailo Podoliak, had to openly admit that it was "not the time" for the meeting of the presidents. The first thing was the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories… The second "obstacle" to agreements with the Russians arrived in Kyiv on 9 April." The second reason, after the atrocities, was the visit of Boris Johnson, who assured Zelensky of the west's collective support. Then Zelensky called for two agreements, one with Russia and one with security guarantors, and then the peace deal fell through. The Ukrainska Pravda article is here for anyone to see who disagrees with my presentation.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll add that the second source you added is the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, which is repackaging something Foreign Affairs published to promote its agenda of a "realist" and advocating for "restraint" in U.S. foreign policy.. Fiona Hill (presidential advisor) is one of the authors of the article in Foreign Affairs and is unlikely to have portrayed Johnson as single-handedly forcing Kyiv to fight on.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:23, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: While I have been advocating for a "Peace efforts" section above, I agree and thank you for this revert. It might have been completely unintentional on Alaexis's part, but that prose really read extremely distorted from reliable reportings on these events. –LordPickleII (talk) 19:34, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ermenrich excuse me but what you say is unreasonable. You talk like Johnson is by his own but he is not, he was the British prime minister meaning that he used to represent the British government! So he didn't "single-handedly" interfere in the peace talks as you say.

You said that the article said: "The Russian side…was actually ready for the Zelenskyy-Putin meeting [...]" but I'd like to add that it ALSO said "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with." And the second is that "even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not." You shouldn't pick on part and leave the other.

Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 00:35, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

What you've written misses the point. It does not change the fact that he is listed in the article as the second reason for the collapse of peace talks. The first reason was the Russian atrocities. Alaexis's addition did not mention them and was framed as though the West prevented peace (whether intentionally or not).--Ermenrich (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ermenrich, OK so, I guess we should add both reasons? Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 12:56, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi user:ErnestKrause! I'd like to know why did you revert my edits.THX! Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 23:58, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I see that someone has re-written the section on the peace negotiations. I'm fine with the new version too, so let's discuss it. Alaexis_¿question? 09:28, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll quote the relevant part of the Foreign Affairs article here for everyone's convenience

“ According to multiple former senior U.S. officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries. ”

Alaexis_¿question? 09:35, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

@Alaexis and Super ninja2: Please note that there has been an unresolved discussion above about whether to include a "Peace efforts" section at all. I think the discussion of a "how should it look?" should be postponed until we have clarity about that.

@Jirka.h23, Slatersteven, ErnestKrause, Basedosaurus, and IntrepidContributor: I believe this is actually an issue in favour of having a Peace section here that is actively maintained through consensus, rather than re-added periodically with potentially pointed and undue statements. Is anyone of you in favour of keeping the current section? Because I believe the old one was far superior. –LordPickleII (talk) 09:42, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't notice that. I agree with your point. Alaexis_¿question? 09:46, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The general approach in the international press has been that there have been three phases in the Russo-Ukraine War since the annexation of Crimea. The first was the process of the annexation of Crimea itself, which was followed by an Interim Period of conflict between Russia and Ukraine mostly in the Donbas region, which was followed by the two phases of the current 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Discussion here on the Talk page should be consistent with the general approach taken in the international press about the Russo-Ukraine War as a whole. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:18, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I am. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 13:16, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

@Super ninja2: I kinda assumed that ^^ But that probably means you also agree we should have "Peace efforts" section at all, instead of none? Because the other discussion above couldn't decide on that question. –LordPickleII (talk) 13:23, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Definitely! :) Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 15:07, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Folks, be so kind and do not revert back and forth until a consensus has been found. Try and use all the options listed under Wikipedia:Dispute resolution...but edit warring will only lead to warnings, blocks, protectons etc...for these consequences it really doesn't matter who is right. Consider this a warning to all taking part in the back and forth. Regards. Lectonar (talk) 14:56, 7 September 2022 (UTC)