Talk:The Grayzone

fringe

the only neutral language here is "radical fringe". any attempt to describe it as far "something" directly reflects the opinions of the editor. editors on the far left consider them far right. editors on the far right consider them far left. the wikipedia article has no place uncritically reflecting the far right categorization of them as far left. [[User:Che y Marijuana|Che y Marijuana]] (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree 100%. Phrases like "Far-right" and "far-left" are meaningless, inherently subjective, and definitely don't belong in an encyclopedia. This should be removed. Of course, the justification will be that "reliable sources" have called it far-left, and Wikipedia is just acting as a stenographer for these reliable sources. But my response to that is simple: just because a reliable source uses biased, subjective language, in no way implies that we need to parrot it. We don't have a responsibility to repeat verbatim every opinion-based statement a reliable source passes off as fact. What's acceptable to an editor in the newsroom of a "reliable source" is not always acceptable in an encyclopedic context. Wikipedia would be much better off if every use of "far-right" and "far-left" were removed. Hope others will discuss the points made here and in the above comment, and hope that this won't be "hatted" because some random guy doesn't like it. Philomathes2357 (talk) 23:25, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I’m not here to “hat” this, but as someone with a degree in political science I’d think you’d understand that “far right” and “far left” are not meaningless terms. Maybe they should be used more cautiously, but nobody informed about the subject is going to say it’s wrong to label Communists far left or Fascists far right. Dronebogus (talk) 23:50, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

You again. You seem to have turned into my biggest fan on Wikipedia. I'm fascinated that there's someone out there with enough free time to insert themselves into every Wikipedia post I make. When will you be addressing your repeated assertions that I act in bad faith?

Perhaps the terms aren't completely meaningless, but they certainly are inherently subjective. What is it, exactly, that makes a person or group's rightness or leftness "far"? "Right" and "left" are already quite vague, and their meaning can vary wildly, depending on the domestic political context in which they are used, but they generally regarded as useful terms. "Far" left or "far" right, by contrast, are terms used almost exclusively in the realm of persuasive political writing. Primarily in news media, with the goal of painting a person or group as "fringe" without having to substantively address the person or group's position. In short, someone who is "right-wing" is someone who's generally politically conservative. Someone who's "far right" is someone who people find personally annoying, offensive, or dangerous. I think you would have a hard time finding political scholars who would find these terms encyclopedic, and their use is strongly discouraged in serious work produced within every institution of higher learning with which I'm personally familiar.

And, to address your specific examples, Communism could probably be described as far left in casual conversation without confusion or misunderstanding - but that doesn't make it appropriate encyclopedic wording, since Wikipedia is not a casual discussion forum. Fascism is not nearly as clear cut.

I see no reason for the inclusion of this phrase. It is non-neutral and unencyclopedic. Maybe an RFC would be appropriate here? Philomathes2357 (talk) 00:14, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

You have provided no evidence for that and have repeatedly insulted me and wasted the time of numerous other users. To prove I’m not your “fan”, you are muted as of now. The only interaction I hope to be having is reverting any dubious edits you insist on adding to articlespace. Dronebogus (talk) 00:18, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes, the preferred strategy of everyone who feels that their arguments stand on their own merits: silence dissenting opinions. Would you like to address any of the substance of the above comments? Philomathes2357 (talk) 00:25, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Philomathes2357:, I see you've having issues with our mutual friend. I've watchlisted this article. Would you be willing to watchlist Chaos magic, Genesis P-Orridge and Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth? Seems he's also yammering at WP:ANI. Skyerise (talk) 00:32, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Sure, I'll do that. If you want to discuss this further @Skyerise, you're more than welcome to, but could you go to my talk page or email me at the address on my main page? I don't want this thread, which I hope will continue in a productive direction, to get bogged down with personal drama. Philomathes2357 (talk) 00:37, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

All of you need to stop harassing Deonebogus. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:08, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Who else?

Who else said that The Grayzone was "a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel and Palestine". It seems unlikely that two people would use these exact same words. Burrobert (talk) 03:36, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Please read the Reception section. Volunteer Marek 03:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean. However, what is the answer to the question? Burrobert (talk) 04:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Anyone? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Burrobert (talk) 03:18, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Our ref says Bawer in Commentary and the passage indeed appears there. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)