Talk:Lillie Langtry

Copyrighted text?

A large portion of this entry is a direct cut-and-paste from the "History of the Langtry Manor" section of the Langrty Manor homepage (http://www.langtrymanor.co.uk/history.htm). The Langtry Manor text is copyrighted and no permission from the owners is seen.

"This text is reprinted here with permission of the Howard Family" at the bottom seems pretty explicit. It ought to be rewritten in a "more encyclopedic" style, but until we get a letter from the owners to the effect that the permission statement in the article is erroneous, I don't we need to worry about it. Stan 05:05, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Might it be an idea to move the Langtry Manor text to Langtry Manor? It is rather more about the history of the house than the life and works of Lillie herself. Man vyi 14:32, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Caesar

Does anyone have details of Edward VII's dog Caesar? Some references seem to think Princess Alexander gave Caesar to Lillie but the is difficult to verify. Caesar led the mourners at Edward funeral, following the gun carrage that carried the coffin. -Sidpickle (talk) 19:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't but Wikipedia does. Looks like "Caesar" stayed with Queen Alexandra. More details about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(dog) Inspector Colombo (talk) 01:56, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Lillie Langtry and Hampstead

Is there any direct contemporary evidence that Lillie Langtry lived in Alexandra Road, Hampstead? Her cousin the well known Hampstead politician Philip Hemery Le Breton (1806-1884) is said in the Victoria County History for Middlesex, vol. 9, pages 60-63, to have lived at Leighton House [No 103] in Alexandra Road in the 1870s. Lillie is there, said to have been another inhabitant. However, it seems from his other known addresses that Philip was only here for a very short time. The London Encyclopaedia, edited by Ben Weinreb and Christopher Hibbert (1983) page 16, says that Lillie lived here "behind a high brick wall at Leighton House" which (now that other details of her biography have been established in some detail) seems most unlikely. Perhaps she visited her cousin when he was here, but again evidence seems lacking. The eastern end of Alexandra Road was named Langtry Road in 1967. AnthonyCamp (talk) 11:00, 11 June 2017 (UTC).

Inspector Colombo: Two bytes worth considering: (1) "... while the rest of the estate was 'well-to-do, middle-class'. (fn. 26) Inhabitants included Lillie Langtry, a cousin of the local politician Philip Le Breton, who lived in Leighton House in Alexandra Road in the 1870s, the Harmsworth family at no. 94 Boundary Road from 1874 to 1888, and Herbert Spencer, the philosopher, at no. 64 Avenue Road from 1889 to 1897. (fn. 27) Samuel Palmer, of the biscuit firm, lived at no. 40 College Crescent, a large house called Northcourt built in 1881. (fn. 28) Source: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/middx/vol9/pp60-63#anchorn26 (2) Now, when you check the reference in the quote above (fn.26) you will realize the source (of this information which includes the reference to Lillie) could date back to 1889 (...)

A. Camp: Lillie Langtry did not meet the Prince of Wales until the dinner given by Sir Allen Young on 24 May 1877. What one needs in this connection are a few more facts and far less speculation and wild imagining. AnthonyCamp (talk) 09:08, 11 July 2020 (UTC).

Inspector Colombo: In my reply to Mr. Camp (below) I was referring to an early comment (investigation leads really) which I unfortunately deleted when updating the two above points - and earlier points (mine) had become irrelevant as my investigation went on. Reply: Are you saying that the date of 24 May 1877 is incompatible? Incompatible with 103 Alexandra Road? With Lillie staying there now and then for short or longer periods, sometime between 1877-1880? Look at these as "working hypotheses" - based on common sense and the mores of the time. Who knows if the dots were accidentally joined?

LATER ADDENDA

Inspector Colombo: The main section's recent addition does not provide conclusive evidence (or bona fide sources) that Electra Yaras, Adrienne Corri et al, invented such a story for their own ends.

Electra may have been telling a story she had heard from others (adding to it her paranormal experiences). Lillie's name or that of her cousin Philip Le Breton needed not to be in any register. Please read on (Laura Beattie's admonition below).

Also, Anita Leslie ("The Marlborough House Set") was likely to have had her own bona fide sources. Her great aunt was Winston Churchill's mother Jennie, said to have had (or "not have had") an affair with the king. I don't see her book having to rely on the Evening Standard's 1965 feature, for a description of Leghton House. It was more likely that it was the other way around. The way I see it, this is the problem with an Occam's Razor approach, which is vaguely reminiscent of Procrustes approach! Ref. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Procrustes

Also, let us not forget Laura Beattie's admonition, "Lillie was a master at covering her tracks. Like all of her generation who availed themselves of the fin de siècle loosening of morals, she was fanatically discrete" (adding) "important people like the Prince of Wales and the Marquess of Hartington had private secretaries who were responsible for their good character" ("Lillie Langtry: Manners, Masks and Morals").

The other detail is...

Where is the evidence that Leighton House was named after Leighton Buzzard (Bedfordshire) or for that matter that Samuel Litchfield's wife was from there? Sources? The author's blog? The Camden New Journal? No details are given in either. Probably there is evidence, except the researchers are not telling us. Also, the idea that those high walls (Leighton House) were common is not computing. Not from the photo they provide of old Alexandra Road (...)

This is not a thorough approach to research. It brings us back to what Max Arthur, OBE ("Lost Voices of the Edwardians") said: "There is often no stronger proof than rumour concerning historical anecdotes and speculation - and often no stronger proof is needed".

The investigation goes on.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspector Colombo (talk • contribs) 18:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

A. Camp: If you confine your investigation to 103 Alexandra Road (in the period when Lillie Langtry was supposed to be living there) you will soon see that the man who built it, Samuel Litchfield (1819-1894), a dealer in antique furniture, had for some years (as the London Post Office directories show) premises at 19 Green Street, Leicester Square, and at 28-30 Hanway Street, Oxford Street. He had married at St Marylebone in 1846 Catherine Helen Collings (1817-1885) and in 1861 the census tells us that he was living at 26 Belsize Road, Hampstead, and that his wife and his mother-in-law (who was living with them), were born at Leighton Buzzard. The City of Westminster Polls show that he voted in respect of the Green Street property as from 103 Alexandra Road from 1873 to 1875 but in 1876 moved to Coppins, Iver, Buckinghamshire, where he lived until 1881 when he moved to Cheshunt, Hertfordshire.

Inspector Colombo: Most the information you provide here is superflous. The only relevant byte was that about Samuel Litchfield - namely that in "1876 he moved to Coppins, Ive!". What you are telling us is that those polls place him there between 1873-1875 ONLY - and what we are after here IS: who stayed there on-and-off between 1877-1880? That is the question!

A. Camp (continued): No 103 was taken by William George Strickland, a master tailor, who in 1871 had lived at 71 Boundary Road, Hampstead, and employed some 30 hands. The 1881 Census of No 103 shows him and his family and two servants occupying the whole house with Thomas Harden, a gardener, his wife and a son who was a groom, also there. Strickland died at 32 Priory Road, Kilburn, in 1891, and by 1884 the Directories shown that No 103 was occupied by Alfred Savill. Samuel Mayne Frankstein, an oil merchant and dry salter, was there in 1891, and it seems that the house remained a single family residence until 1945 when its lease for twelve and a half years, with vacant possession, was auctioned, and its furniture sold on 20 June 1945 [the details appear in the Marylebone Mercury for 26 May and 2 June 1945]. Presumably this was the lease that Mrs Yaras bought. Thereafter, the house, which had twelve or so main rooms, was sub-divided, the Electoral Registers showing Electra and Romuald Yaras there with about ten other couples from 1956 onwards. The publicity given to the house in newspapers in 1971 (The Times on 8 October 1871 and the Daily Telegraph on 9 October 1971) gave ample information to Anita Leslie for her book, which came out the following year. AnthonyCamp (talk) 15:27, 8 June 2021 (UTC).

Inspector Colombo: Again, too much irrelevant information. What you are NOT telling us, IS the year William George Strickland took over 103 Alexandra Road. All you are telling us (or those records are telling you) is that he and his family are on voting records for 1881 - repeat 1881 - in connection with 103 Alexandra Road AND that Samuel Litchfield left 103 Alexandra Road in 1875-76 (as per Census and London Post Office Records).

BUT what did those records tell you about the "critical period between 1877-1880? Nothing? That is the question and you know that.

Just one aside in connection with Leighton Buzzard and Leighton House, if I may - a bit of lateral thinking I am inclined to agree with but, by the same token, I have to pose this question to you: Did you know there is a place in Leighton Buzzard named "Langtry Court"? What should we make of it? Any suggestions? Source (several): https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/uprn/10002271577/

TO SUMMARIZE:

(1) Litchfield (assuming the data you collectd is correct) left 103 Alexandra Road in 1875 (-76 at the most). (2) The Prince's affair with Lillie, as you point out, was between 1877-1880 at the most. (3) NOW, was Strickland - the master tailor - already living at 103 Alexandra Road in that period (1877-1880)? According to your records Litchfield left in 1875 (-76 at the most) and Strickland does not appear on record as living there until 1881. So I must infer that you don't know and/or that those registers are not telling you either. Correct?

THE QUESTIONs REMAIN:

(a) Was Strickland living at 103 Alexandra Road between 1877-1880? (b) YES or NO? (c) And if NO - then WHO? (d) And if YES - what evidence do you have, such was the case? Checkable sources with links, please. Thank you.

I need not remind you that "Important people like the Prince of Wales and the Marquess of Hartington had private secretaries who were responsible for their good character" (Laura Beattie's in "Lillie Langtry: Manners, Masks and Morals"). I suspect that "reputation management" in those days could take many forms, "special arrangements" (with master tailors if necessary particularly those from Savile Row); erasing and falsifying records (if needed be) - particularly when you consider the parties involved! A future king, on the one hand, and a lady whose cousin was the MP for the Hampstead area, on the other (...) Lateral thinking is of the essence! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspector Colombo (talk • contribs) 01:46, 13 February 2023 (UTC) You ask where Lillie Langtry was between 1878 and 1880. There is no mystery about that and the details appear in Laura Beatty's 1999 book. Lillie and her husband leased 17 Norfolk Street, Park Lane, early in 1878 (a small house with a tiny staff) and gave it up in October 1880. Her husband was hardly ever there except in the early days and Lillie used his absences to entertain a variety of gentlemen including Arthur Jones, the Prince of Wales and Lord Shrewsbury. She sometimes muddled her afternoon callers and Wilfrid Scawen Blunt's diary (quoted by Beatty, page 165) noted that on one occasion the Prince came and was not pleased to find Shrewsbury there. There was obviously no need for her to go anywhere else. AnthonyCamp (talk) 16:21, 18 February 2023 (UTC).