Talk:Mughal Empire

Semi-protected edit request 32 Julember 2047

• Please add a link from the word "itr" to the page "ittar.":
• I was not familiar with this unusual word and thought it was a typo until I searched it up separately.:

184.67.135.194 (talk) 20:25, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

References

 Not done: There is no instance of "itr" on the page at time of review. It's possible another editor already addressed this by changing it to be "ittar", but I would rather not dig through contribution history to verify that. —Sirdog (talk) 00:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, someone changed it to ittar. Thanks! 184.67.135.194 (talk) 15:27, 32 Julember 2047 (UTC)

Map in the Infobox

Is there something wrong with the 1907 map of India in 1700 showing Maratha territories under Mughal control? A recent map published by Princeton University has the Maratha Empire independent of the Mughals which seems to be correct as Aurangzeb did not win the Mughal-Maratha Wars to capture the Maratha state.

https://commons.princeton.edu/mg/the-mughal-empire/ Fayninja (talk) 06:30, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

If you scroll to the bottom, it says: "Copyright © Times Books 2007

Reproduced from The Times Complete History of the World by permission of HarperCollins Publishers Ltd.

Licensing: All rights reserved; Source: The Times Complete History of the World (2007), p. 191."

Will explain the map in a few minutes. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:44, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

It shows the boundaries of the Mughal empire in different periods: Akbar's marked in red; Shah Jahan's in blue, and Aurengzeb's in green. The northern boundaries are the same; the southern are similar for Akbar and Shah Jahan, but extend much farther south for Aurengzeb. There are also boundaries in orange/yellow which show the Mughal provinces that had the Zabt taxation system (spelled Zobt, probably because it is closer to the Persian pronunciation).

Shahji, Shivaji's father, had been rewarded with a jagir, a piece of land on which he collected taxes, kept his cut, and passed the rest on to his distant bosses. What happened after Shahji's death, you can read here The Sultans of Bijapur were tributaries of the Mughals, and Shivaji inherited the jagir after a fight with his brother Venkoji. There was really no Maratha empire then, only jagirs of a chieftain in whose uncertain political independence (and symbolic crowning, and upward mobility to Kshatriya Rajput varna status) the beginning of a much later "empire" has been placed in nationalist histories, not to mention glorified in Hindu nationalist populism.

CC: @RegentsPark, Johnbod, and TrangaBellam: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:28, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Apparently it is spelled zabt in the map. My tired eyes. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:30, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Really respect your time to answer my “probably dumb” questions to your highly educated/learnt eyes. However, I am not questioning any history before 1680 (Shivaji’s death) but specifically the year 1700 which the two maps display and the irregularities between them. Fayninja (talk) 12:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

No irregularities. One (the Time Inc map) highlights the Maratha jagirs in the map of the Mughal empire at the time of Shivaji's death in 1680. You can see the same jagirs in the Atlas of South Asian history, see Major Muslim States (for the Mughal rulers) and Major Hindu States (for Shahji's jagirs) The WP map is a British map ca 1907, which does not distinguish between jagirs or tributary states and the directly ruled regions of the empire. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:10, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

All the research below is sourced from the journal article "MARATHA POLICY TOWARDS THE ADIL SHAHI KINGDOM" by A. R. Kulkarni.

As you stated earlier, the jagirs of Shahaji, Shivaji's father were indeed "under the supremacy of the Adilshahi, as it fell within the jurisdiction of Bijapur king". However, Shivaji had later fought, taken over forts and removed Bijapur garrisons to legitimise his authority over those areas. To effectively counter the Mughal threat, Bijapur Sultan Ali Adil Shah made a treat which "liberated Shivaji from the vassalage of Adii Shahi kingdom, and gave him the equal status of an independent king." In 1665, the Treat of Purandar with the Mughals had only temporarily reduced his independence as in 1667, Shivaji broke one of its major terms and joined hands with the Adil Shahis once again. "The coronation in 1674 enhanced his status as sovereign ruler of the Maratha territory, who could enter into peace independently along with others."

I suppose The Times map is attempting to highlight the obscurity on the boundaries between the two states caused by the dearth of sources on the subject during the Mughal-Maratha War (1680-1707). (i.e. the fog of war)

The British map created in 1907 is not a primary source and does not give an accurate depiction of India in 1700, not to mention, it disrespects a particular community by falsely showing their lands under foreign sovereignty (i.e. Mughal control) whose imperial policies were guided by a narrow identity marked with hate and exclusivism. Fayninja (talk) 13:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Language section

Hey Mydust, opening a section on the talk page to avoid an edit war, and to be more articulate on criticisms. I reverted your changes for the following reasons:

1. Urdu definitely deserves a mention in any talk of the Mughal Empire's language - however, the language most closely identified with the empire was definitely Persian. I feel that by giving so many close details of Urdu's relationship with the Mughals, without adding to that of Persian, there will be undue weight on Urdu. Statements such as 'The Mughals were bilingual, using Persian writing for administration, while speaking Urdu as a first language' to me are misrepresentative - the Mughals did use Persian commonly in spoken contexts, especially in the court.

2. To add to the above: the Mughal emperors spoke Hindvi/proto-Urdu/Hindustani personally from the reign of Akbar. This should be in the section, so I appreciate that you added the touch that the emperors did speak this. However, calling this Urdu is, I think, a misnomer. That refers to a much more refined version of the language that developed in the court and beyond from the time of Shah Alam II.

3. The image that you used - I objected to this because, if we are making a summary-level section on Mughals and language, it doesn't make sense to me to replace an image of an actual dictionary commissioned by an emperor during the empire's heyday, with a later image of a bird is captioned with Urdu text, and has an unclear connection to the Mughal empire.

This is not to say that the section was perfect before; I just think that there are better avenues for improvement than shifting the emphasis of the section to Urdu (for example, adding that the Mughals spoke Hindvi in private, or elaborating on how Turkic was phased out). Gowhk8 (talk) 02:43, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

End of the Empire

It seems to me that, as the relevant section says, the Mughal Empire was actually formally ended in 1858, not 1857, as the top of the article says. Thoughts? Johnbod (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

The East India Company was dissolved in 1858. The Mughal Empire ended in 1857, when Bahadur Shah Zafar the last emperor was banished to Burma and this sons were executed. I have written the lead but not read the rest of the article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:06, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

On the other hand, the exile did not begin until 1858 (there was some legal formality to be completed) and he did not die until 1862. But his capture and the murder of his male heirs by Hodson was the signal event. His grave is in Burma. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:14, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2023

Add the word "Islamic" or "Muslim" somewhere in the opening paragraph. It is very substantial to helping a reader understand the empire's administration, demographics, and culture, but is barely mentioned. 2603:800C:3D00:1ED2:B862:7FA6:8A13:467C (talk) 01:30, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. You need to tell us where exactly to add the word. Lightoil (talk) 03:29, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Seems a reasonable request - done. Johnbod (talk) 04:10, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Demographics

the sources here used for the demographics has been outdated and new data has been published by the Maddison himself. Plz remove the semi protected for the update of the population here. Also there are many problems in the GDP part as well 103.81.215.217 (talk) 05:47, 27 May 2023 (UTC)