Talk:North Macedonia

Given the difficulty of many Balkan issues

I'll go ahead and note this here: the current sourced sentence in the naming section

The name Macedonia was largely forgotten during the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires...

was at least inaccurate during the existence of the theme of Macedonia. If we keep the part of the sentence about the Byzantine Empire, we have to acknowledge and link to the theme. Sure, it's fine to remove it if the discussion is limited to the Ottoman Empire instead. — LlywelynII 21:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The "Theme of Macedonia" was part of today's Bulgaria and Greece. The classic definition of Macedonia (capital at Pella etc) was of interest only to a few antiquarians at that time... AnonMoos (talk) 22:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I still think it should be mentioned that it was used to refer to a mostly different area, instead of forgotten. --Antondimak (talk) 17:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Naming question

Do we currently consider North Macedonia to be the name of the country that came into existance in 1991, and thus North Macedonia and North Macedonian to be the proper way to refer to that country and its residents and nationals at all points from 1991 on? My largest concern is in regards to emigration categories, and since pre-1991 emigrants belong in the Yugoslavia or early country categories, I only need to figure out about 1991 on for that purpose. I am wondering a little if we had a writer who lived in modern North Macedonia from 1945 until and early death in 1985, would it still be best to call that person a North Macedonian writer?John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:00, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Good question. There was no "North Macedonia" before the Prespa Agreement, so a writer who died in 1985 was not a North Macedonian writer. Calling him a North Macedonian writer would be anachronistic and misleading. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:12, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

• We use Thai people and its subcategories to transcend the 1939 rename of Siam to Thailand. Generally when name changes do not effect the structure of a country or its borders we do not build categories to distinguish based on them.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:45, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The Thai people are an ethnic group. They, as an ethnic group, were called "Thai" even when Thailand was called Siam. North Macedonians are not an ethnic group but citizens/nationals of North Macedonia. Before North Macedonia got renamed, there were no "North Macedonians". The Slavic ethnic group was called "Macedonian" before the Prespa Agrement, and continues to be called so. However, I also see your point, so maybe someone with more knowledge on the matter of how people from today's North Macedonia are named throught Wiki could help. Maybe User:Future Perfect at Sunrise has sth better to say. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:20, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The ethnic group is generally referred to as Tai and are not one and the same as the nationals of Thailand. the various categories such as Thai writers are using the term to refer to nationals of Thailand without regard to what ethnicity they may be. We would not exclude someone of Chinese ethnicity, or a Malay writer from the south of Thailand from the category, even if they died before the adoption of the current name of the country.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

• To get back to the North Macedonia question specifically, we would assume that Category:North Macedonia writers would be a subcat of Category:North Macedonia people for writers. Petar Andonovski is an article that opens by saying after giving his birth info in paretheses that the subject is "is a writer from North Macedonia". The only category the article is in is Category:Macedonian writers, which if it is meant to cover something other than writers who are nationals of the place currently called North Macedonia is not a category that putting Andonovski in is supported at all by the category contents. Do we want a Macedonian writers category that covers the Macedonian ethnic group without regards to what country such writers were nationals of, or do we want Category:North Macedonia writers to be the only so named category? I am torn as to whether it is best for Macedonian writers to become North Macedonian writers or to start a new North Macedonia writers category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
• On further review Macedonian writers contains many entries on people who were not even remotely connected to North Macedonia. I will create a new category. For now I will only apply it to people alive and in North Macedonia after 2018.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:12, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

• • Actually, "Macedonian" is the correct designation both of the ethnicity (of the majority population of this country, at least since the 20th century), and of the nationality of this country (after 1945, and both before and after the 2019 renaming). Incidentally, it is of course also the designation of the language, so for a writer who (presumably) belongs to the Macedonian ethnos, is a citizen of (North) Macedonia, and writes in Macedonian, "Macedonian writer" is a correct designation in three ways at once. For your earlier example of somebody who lived between 1945 and 1985, you'd probably classify them as a "Yugoslav writer" if you go by nationality (which I suppose our categories usually do). Also personally I wouldn't mind using the narrower category retroactively too – just as I guess "Ukrainian writers" also contains people who lived during the Soviet era and died before 1990. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:19, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

    Right, it would be strange to not categorize Kočo Racin as a Macedonian writer, despite him dying decades before 1991. This newly-created should just be redirected to the existing Macedonian writers category. --Local hero ^talk 05:35, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Ismail Strazimiri

Ismail Strazimiri is listed in Category:Albanians in North Macedonia yet he died in 1943. I think we can confidently say he does not belong in such a category. Even if we were to accept that this category can cover people who were resident in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia within Yugoslavia, I think going back before that was formed in 1944 is a total misuse of the term. Up until the German invasion in 1941, the area of modern North Macedonia and some adjacent areas now in Kosovo and Yugoslavia were in Vardar Banovina. I am going to move Strazimiri into the Albanians in Yugoslavia cat.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:54, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello. Thank you for raising the issue. I agree that some people have been anachronistically placed in such categories, ex. people being put in North Macedonia's municipalities' categories despite them having lived before the existence of North Macedonia. I've been removing people from such categories, because they should apply only for people in the contemporary period. Just letting you know that there still might be such an anachronism. StephenMacky1 (talk) 19:03, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Pasting reply from that talkpage: The point of that category is to place Strazimiri alongside other Albanians from the present-day territory of N Macedonia. I understand "North Macedonia" sounds anachronistic but the point is to categorize him among Albanian Macedonians. --Local hero ^talk 20:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

• I really think we should created Category:Albanian in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia or alternatively agree to place anyone who was not at least alive from 1991 on in Category:Albanians in Yugoslavia alone and not in any Macedonia categories. Movement in Yugoslavia was not restricted, and many people moved around it, especially between Kosovo and Macedonia, so there are strong arguments against ignoring its existence in categories. We need to avoid anachronism and not imposed categories based on present names and political conditions on the past. There are times when unified names justify applying names on the past that would not have been used at the time, but in this case I think we need to avoid stretching names too far back. If an ethnic Albanian lived from 1870-1910 the whole time within the present boundaries of North Macedonia, it would still not make sense to describe such a person as having been in North Macedonia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:22, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

  I understand your point about it being anachronistic, but it becomes complicated with categories. For example, as @StephenMacky1: stated above, he's removed such anachronistic categories, including from an article I wrote Nace Dimov. The category was "Category:People from Čaška Municipality". Of course Dimov died way before there was such a municipality, but I added this category because there was no "People from Papradište" category. Let's say that category did exist... then it would probably be a subcat under "People from Čaška Municipality" which then again becomes an anachronism.

  I'm fine with using "Albanians in Yugoslavia" as you suggest, but from my experience these anachronistic categorizations are very common (ex: Nephon II of Constantinople categorized in Category:Albanian people of Greek descent). --Local hero ^talk 03:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• There is no inherent reason why we cannot have seperate categories for people of an ethnic group, and for people who lived in a particular country. The "Foo people of Booian descent" are meant for cases where Foo means a particular country. We should not apply it to people who lived at a time when there was no Foo country. So Albanina people of x descent categories should only exist for those who lived after the forming of Albanian in the 1910s. Someone who lived in the Ottoman Empire should be in the People from the Ottoman Empire of Boo descent cats. We currently have Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Albanian descent, Category:Albanians in the Ottoman Empire and Category:Albanian people in the Ottoman Empire. This is clearly only at most 2 categories. Oh, it gets worse, we also have Category:Albanians from the Ottoman Empire that is a sub-cat of Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnicity which is a parent to the People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnic or national descent cat. We do not seem to have either Category:Macedonians from the Ottoman Empire or Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Macedonian descent. I can not state how much we are really following good principals in these categories. Clearly we should only have 2 Albanian categories at most, and I would ask 2 questions. 1-with much of the Albanian lands in the Ottoman Empire for several centuries, does it make sense to seperate descent and not descent cats? With American people of Albanian descent they are clearly in a state of being removed from the ethnic homeland, this is not the case for Albanians in the Ottoman Empire. The other issues that relates to this is, if we have someone in the Ottoman Empire who for whatever reason we are not comfortable saying they are in fact "Albanian", is their ethnicity at all defining. The big problem is that some category names were developed for cases like the United States and people from groups that immigrated to the US from elsewhere. They do not work easily in Eastern Europe.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:04, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

  I see no problem if you'd like to do this. I do believe that the main use for readers of Category:Albanians in North Macedonia is to locate articles for individuals of Albanian descent who hail/hailed from what is now N Macedonia, regardless of the era. Doing as you propose would make it more difficult to do that, but on the other hand it would also eliminate the anachronism. --Local hero ^talk 19:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

  • If they are in this category they need to be "Albanian" not just "Albanian descent", period. Determining the difference is at times hard. However we need clear evidence that they would self-identify and be identified by others as being ethnically Albanian. This is something more than just "descent".John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:06, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2023

In the photos section, I see it says "North Macedonia is located in North Macedonia" It's supposed to say located in Europe. Thought it was funny :) 69.117.68.127 (talk) 23:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC)